171 Comments

1. Terrye:

Roger:

I thought about skipping this thing but I will watch it.

This whole campaign is like a train wrck, you just can’t pull your eyes away.

Today I heard another guy on the news calling Bush a sissy [his words] for joining the National Guard and somehow that is acceptable, it is fair and balanced doncha know.

I am 52, when I was younger I would never have believed that a sitting president would be called a sissy for flying fighter jets just because somebody else wants his job.

I don’t know what will happen in this election but I have lost all respect for the media and the Democrats.

And why should they care about Chechens with guns? They are too busy obsessing about Bush’s military record from 33 years ago to give a dman about the public today.

Oct 13, 2004 - 5:33 pm 2. lindenen:

I haven’t watched any of the debates. I can’t watch them. I feel jumpy enough knowing that they’re going on right now.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:14 pm 3. julie:

Bush has gotten in some great lines. And as to style, he sounds relaxes and Kerry sounds, besides his voice, not good.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:15 pm 4. julie:

Lindened:

It’s okay. Turn on the radio. Bush is doing well.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:16 pm 5. Rick Ballard:

Lindenen,

Kerry is as negative as before – he’s never seen a glass half full. Bush is optimistic in his first response. Good comment on a 19 year old Afghan woman voting for the first time.

Shieffer is OK – not as good as the last guy.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:17 pm 6. julie:

Lindenen: Sorry for misspelling your name. KABC accidently cut into BOR and it scared me.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:17 pm 7. lindenen:

hehe Thank you Julie and Rick! Don’t worry about the name though. Everyone misspells it. It makes posting more exciting.

I still can’t look. I don’t even want to hear. I just want to crawl in a hole.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:21 pm 8. David Thomson:

Itís not necessarily what you say, itís how you say it. Kerry sounds very good and forceful. He may be spouting bovine excrement, but it doesn’t matter. Bush will be lucky to tie. But thatís all he needs to do. The president must, for the rest of the campaign, focus on Iraq and the war on terror. These are the issues the voters really care about.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:24 pm 9. Rick Ballard:

Kerry is not nearly as well spoken as he was in the first debate. He’s stumbling on some pat responses. There is a level of tension in him that I haven’t seem before. Alternatively, W has slowed his delivery to the point where he is more easily understood.

I should have picked “record” rather than “liberal” for W’s.

Great line “Senator, there’s a mainstream in American politics and you sit on the far left bank”.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:26 pm 10. julie:

David:

Kerry sounds very good and forceful.

No he doesn’t.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:29 pm 11. David Thomson:

Instapundit highlighted this link:

ìIn keeping with my track record of eerily-accurate five-minute analyses, Iím saying that President Bush has won this election.

Before you disagree, keep in mind my confident 5-minute call that John Kerryís nomination acceptance speech was an ìunmitigated disaster.î Or that I called Kerry the clear winner of the first presidential debate within five minutes.î

http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=4513

I sure hope that Polipundit is right. Heís more optimistic that I am regarding Bushís performance.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:30 pm 12. Bostonian:

Is it just me, or was Kerry babbling just now–all over the map. “I respect your views. I’m Catholic, but I just happen to be Catholic like John F Kennedy who was a president who happened to be Catholic.” Does he think he has a chance at the Catholic voters? What’s he doing?

Oh, and right now, Bush is actually making a point about health care costs that I’ve been making myself for years: The costs are paid by third parties. The consumers are not the buyers. There are no market forces acting here. (Or they’re diluted beyond usefulness, I think.) Go George! Wait, I thought he was supposed to be stupid or something.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:37 pm 13. Bostonian:

OMG, Kerry just made an argument by referring to authority, and the authority he cited was… “two major networks.” Eeeeyeah.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:40 pm 14. Matt Evans:

Woah, Bush just slammed CBS news. Wonder if Schieffer will try to screw him…

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:41 pm 15. Rick Ballard:

Is it just me, or was Kerry babbling just now–all over the map.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth at high speed tends to sound like that.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:46 pm 16. julie:

Sorry, Dave. I didn’t feel that strongly. My computer is going nuts.

I do take exception with JK claiming credit for more bills then those with his name on it. Adding an amendment is not writing the bill or pushing it along. As Bush said, his record in the senate is indicative of lack of leadership.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:46 pm 17. julie:

Today’s workers pay for today’s retirees. Well, that’s nice. But want about tomorrow’s retirees who will increase dramatically in numbers due to the Boomers. Tomorrow’s workers can not handle the burden.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:48 pm 18. Bostonian:

Great, now Kerry wants to raise minimum wage. I guess he really doesn’t care who he screws out of a job. Bush better nail him on this.

Oct 13, 2004 - 6:57 pm 19. julie:

I think Bush is doing great. I never bought into this he is a bad debater. And, I can’t stand that droning Kerry.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:03 pm 20. julie:

Kerry, if you want to attract people to the military, stop stabbing them in the back.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:04 pm 21. julie:

Yeah, Bush brings up JK not backing Kuwait. Yeah!

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:08 pm 22. David Thomson:

John Kerryís response to the question concerning Second Amendment issues will severely harm him. Did Karl Rove bribe Schieffer to place Kerry in such an awkward predicament? It 8:16 PM EST and Bush is finishing up strongly. Iím feeling more positive.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:16 pm 23. Buddy Larsen:

“Folksy old Bob Schieffer, come to be fair, and make up some lost Forgery-gate ground” my happy ass. Tee up shot after shot for your boy john. Wish GWB’d amswered the ‘overextended army’ q with “How come 90% of them vote for me?”

What a worn-out bunch of miserable, crooked, dirty left-wing finks over there at CBS. God, I hate them, i hate them I hate them.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:17 pm 24. legion:

Kerry reminds me of a particularly creepy funeral home director. One who “feels your pain”, and knows just how to make it ten times worse, in the process of making you feel “comforted.”

Schieffer has definitely shaped the questions in Kerry’s favor, althoug Kerry lacked the ability to follow through.

Do we really want a funeral director as president? Especially one who will probably preside over a great number of terrorist victims if his policies are enacted?

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:24 pm 25. Rick Ballard:

Kerry does not sound like a winner. You don’t close a sale knocking the competition. You don’t close a sale by telling the customer that you’ve got a great product but you can’t let them see it quite yet. You don’t close a sale by telling the customer that the price will be disclosed until the contract is signed. Kerry would starve to death as a salesman.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:24 pm 26. Buddy Larsen:

Kerryjust made an actual good joke about marrying up, and the Scieffer reaction shot looked like he’d just taken 50cc of adrenaline directly in the heart muscle.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:27 pm 27. TmjUtah:

The ‘marrying up’ line was the most human moment from Kerry in the whole campaign. And the crowd was silent.

Then he took off on mom….quiet again.

He can’t articulate his emotional ties to his wife. Not even for politics. He made a joke about it.

And ending politicking on a non-political question.

I was right. “Global Test” has killed him since the first debate.

Bush close is tremendous. I’m not sorry that I followed blogs (even Oberman) instead of listening until the close.

Rick – Bush closed right, didn’t he? “I want YOUR vote”.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:31 pm 28. Buddy Larsen:

Champagne for Bush;

Sham pain for Kerry !!!

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:33 pm 29. Rick Ballard:

Tmj,

W closed the deal. Not many minds will be changed but the tenor of the debate leans very heavily to W. A side by side review of the answers will show that W won on substance and I believe that he was a clear style winner tonight.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:37 pm 30. Peter G.:

I’d like to thank Roger and everyone here for their commentary over these three debates. You watched the debates so I didn’t have to.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:46 pm 31. Buddy Larsen:

Who were those two guys on the stage with BOB SCHIEFFER tonight?

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:48 pm 32. Solomon:

Great job by Bush tonight. No question to me. Bringing up Cheney’s daughter as though he was just looking for the excuse was a bizarrely classless act for a man with a yacht.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:48 pm 33. Jamie Irons:

Rick

I trust your judgments in these matters implicitly.

Lately, though, I have been feeling almost despondent. The way the media and “the establishment” in general denigrates Bush, the attacks on free speech…all of it has really depressed me. And I tend to be an optimist.

I was behind a car going home with a Kerry bumper sticker, and I fantasized, should I be being stopped beside them at a light (I did not get the chance, though) rolling down the window and giving them a thumbs up.

When they responded (should they do so) I was going to reply, cheerfully, “No, you don’t understand. I’m a Bush supporter. But I just wanted you to know how strongly I support your being able to apply that bumber sticker to your car, and how grateful I am to live in a country where you can do it.”

Jamie Irons

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:51 pm 34. Matt Evans:

That was a Texas ass-whupping. They hung Kerry’s Senate record around his neck like a noose. Its about damn time.

Bush was knowlegable AND funny. And I swear I think the CBS comment was a hat tip to the pajamadene, who have done so much of the job that would typically be the job of the MSM.

I laughed every time Bush said Kerry wants to spend a TRILLION dollar. Thats alot of damn money to this wage-earner.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:54 pm 35. julie:

tmj: Kerry stole the marrying up line from the eulogy at Regan’s funeral.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:54 pm 36. Joe:

Bush wins, definitely, on both style and substance this time. Kerry looked terrible – gaunt, almost cadaverous, and his prosecutorial style is really beginning to grate. Bush was relaxed, confident, amiable and aggressive, all at the same time (he was doing an odd little thing with the left corner of his mouth but I think he was working on paying attention to Laura and trying not to scowl. ) He kept Kerry on the defensive through much of the debate, which is a real accomplishment given that domestic policy was supposed to be Kerry’s strong suit. I expect the MSM to spin _really_ frantically this time to try to make it look like a draw because there’s no way they can reasonably make it look like a Kerry win. Only problem is that the audience was probably quite small tonight because of the baseball games. That may make some GOP voters unable to answer poll questions.

Oct 13, 2004 - 7:54 pm 37. ambisinistral:

I called the last debate a draw, but this one was a clear Bush win. Kerry, on too many answers, was far too convoluted in his answers. His endless doom and gloom seemed more pronounced than usual. As bad as he painted things, I was expecting Tom Joad and his family to go clattering by in the background on their way to Californy.

Kerry was supposed to win on domestic politics, but his Senate record kept tripping him up. The negativity he could project thousands of miles away to Iraq was much more difficult to pull off in describing one’s own neighborhood.

Bush did an interesting thing with his voice. He started out slow and quietly, and build to a very firm and driving rythmn in his answers. He looked very relaxed and in command of the situation tonight.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:00 pm 38. George Purcell:

Hm. I thought this was easily the most boring of the debates, but that Kerry clearly won. I thought Bush was, if anything, more tired and repeatitive than the first debate. The attempted jab at CBS fell flat.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:01 pm 39. richard mcenroe:

Solomon ó “My name is John Forbes Kerry, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht…”

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:02 pm 40. Buddy Larsen:

Solomon, he didn’t EVEN have the honesty to make a proper gaffe, he stumbled, pausing before ‘a lesbian’, and then saying it sotto voce, rushed, and buried under the following word. It’s as if he was determined to go for the homophobes, somewhere a focus group told he and Edwards that there’s a few votes out there that they could deny Bush (aren’t all homphobes rightists?). Kerry is the bully who picks fights, and then gets beat up. Bathos overrides Pathos.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:05 pm 41. Jamie Irons:

ambisinistral

[Kerry's] endless doom and gloom seemed more pronounced than usual. As bad as he painted things, I was expecting Tom Joad and his family to go clattering by in the background on their way to Californy.

That line cheered me up! Very funny.

Jamie Irons

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:08 pm 42. TedN:

The “Integrity, Integrity, Integrity” line inescapably reminded me of the “Dignity, always dignity” scene from “Singing In the Rain”..

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:16 pm 43. Buddy Larsen:

ABC just called it a tie. Neither man’s dentures fell out onto the podium, so, “It’s a TIE!”

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:18 pm 44. Rick Ballard:

Jamie,

I suppose I have a distinct advantage in that I’ve always been on the “other” side from most posters here. You may be discouraged by the MSM today but I’ve been just a teeny bit skeptical of them since about ‘67. There is nothing new going on, in fact I believe that the only difference is that the trumpeting of the press mastotodons is growing a bit fainter as it becomes a bit more shrill.

Why don’t you get some BC04 stickers and artfully place them in various places around the workplace when no one is around?

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:21 pm 45. Jamie Irons:

Rick

There is nothing new going on, in fact I believe that the only difference is that the trumpeting of the press mastotodons is growing a bit fainter as it becomes a bit more shrill.

You have a definite gift for metaphor in the context of political commentary.

Do you have a secret “thesaurus” of these?

Anyway, you cheered me up, as usual.

Jamie Irons

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:25 pm 46. richard mcenroe:

Schieffer’s questions tonight may or may not have been slanted ó but they were a perfect encapsulation of the insular mindset of the New York limousine liberal.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:29 pm 47. Michael B:

The Scheiffer/Kerry team kept placing men on base, but Kerry had few RBIs tonight; the President left himself on second and third at times but hit some out of the park as well. And thankfully, there was no need for extra innings.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:29 pm 48. Matteo:

Bush summed it up so well when he said, “A litany of complaints is not a plan!” Is there any problem happening anywhere on this planet, any misfortune, no matter how small, that isn’t somehow Bush’s fault (flu shots, anyone? FLU SHOTS?!?)? I’ve heard it said before, “Republicans run for President. Democrats run for King”. This debate was a good illustration.

Bush acquited himself well. His vast improvement from the first debate shows he is a man who can recognize mistakes and do what’s necessary to fix them. Given the MSM, I don’t think there’s all that much more he could have done over this campaign, or over the last four years, to get his message out. If you are a Michael Moore-on and hate the man you saw tonight, the problem is not with him, it is with you. If Bush loses it will be because the electorate is a bunch of flaming a-holes (due to malice or willful ignorance). Or because of massive election fraud. One or the other.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:36 pm 49. RogerA:

I heard the majority of the debate on radio–Bush clearly kicked some butt. When I got home, wife wasnt so sure. Apparently Kerry looked better. At any rate, wife (my “everyman” analyzer)really got ticked at the Cheney daughter comment. I thought that comment represents the depravity to which the democratic party has sunk–to wit: they would exploit a family’s personal situation to try to exploit the evangelical component of the President’s base. What does this say about the supposed “concern” for discrimination and the politics of group identity. A shameful and egregious performance that reflects shame on what used to be an important element in the national political structure. And if there is any gay person reading this, they should realize that their sexual orientation is ONLY worthwhile as a political instrument to be wielded as a club on an opponent.

Yes–honest people may disagree about the origins of homosexuality–I personally do not regard it as a choice–I think it is hard-wired genetically. But recall: during the 70s and 80s the gay community pitched it as a choice. Ultimately, one’s gender orientation, whatever the basis, is a personal consideration. NOT the purview of government–and especially not the purview of some cheap-ass politician who wishes to exploit ones sexuality as a club to win votes or deny votes. Shame on Kerry, Edwards, and the democratic party.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:40 pm 50. Terrye:

I don’t know what Mr. Purcell up there has been smoking but Bush beats the pants of Lurch. Kerry just bitched and moaned and whined. Bush actually had something to say other than everything sucks and Cheney’s daughter is gay.

Too bad he did not do that in the first debate.

I wish Kerry would not smile, he gives me the creeps when he smiles.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:42 pm 51. George Purcell:

Terrye, I am simply giving my take…and I am a persuadable Democrat in this race.

My overall feeling was mainly of boredom.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:49 pm 52. ambisinistral:

Speaking of odd ball comments, what was with Kerry bringing up retina scanners coming up during the illegal immigration question? That’s illegal immigration, as in people sneaking across the Rio Grande.

I had this image of the border lined with posts with retinal scanners on them. Flunk the eyeball test and zaaap — one more Mexican fried with a laser. Sounds like a plan to me.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:51 pm 53. flenser:

Jamie

Lately, though, I have been feeling almost despondent. The way the media and “the establishment” in general denigrates Bush, the attacks on free speech…all of it has really depressed me.

That is what they want, after all. The MSM is engaging in psychological warfare, aimed at deflating our side and encouraging the Kerry supporters. Their goal is to depress the turnout for Bush supporters. Don’t let them do it.

One way arond this is simply not to watch any MSM. Apart from glancing at some AP headlines on the Yahoo home page I have virtually no interaction with dino-media any more.

Taking some kind of action helps to stave off thoese feelings of depression. I have a photoshopped picture of Kerry with his “band of brothers” but with the ACB, CBS, and NBC logos over the crew’s faces. I post them at assorted points where they will be viewed by a lot of people. Will it make any difference? Dunno, but it makes me feel like I’m doing something.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:51 pm 54. Buddy Larsen:

DNC/CBS Memo to 50,OOO University of Mars precinct-vulture lawyers: “We didn’t do SQUAT, so no coup d’ETAT!”

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:53 pm 55. richard mcenroe:

Roger ó The online polls are a poisoned well. The last couple of debates I’ve posted the links the DNC e-mailed out to its subscribers to spam the surveys. DU and a lot of the 527/PACS did the same thing. I don’t know about the CNN “instant” poll and unless they release their polling breakdowns, the numbers are pretty meaningless without context.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:53 pm 56. Beldar:

Brilliant observation regarding Kerry’s mother, Roger. I admire your ability to pierce the homily and switch perspectives.

The scary thing is, I’m afraid it’s a true story.

Oct 13, 2004 - 8:57 pm 57. flenser:

George Purcell

My overall feeling was mainly of boredom.

That’s kind of how I feel having to look at your silly posts George. Do you have a thought in your head? If not, it might explain your “boredom”.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:00 pm 58. Barry Dauphin:

Desparation, thy name is stuffing the ballot boxes of online polls. And these are the people who want to take over foreign policy.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:02 pm 59. Rick Ballard:

I wish Kerry would not smile, he gives me the creeps when he smiles.

Dang it, Terrye, there’s a mortician in Santa Fe who just had his evening spoiled. You have to think of others feelings when you post. He did the best he could.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:03 pm 60. Terrye:

richard:

I don’t know but any instant poll like that is not to be trusted, not if it is done by the media. What are the demographics? Democrats cheat, we all know that.

And the online polls are silly. I only did one and that was on Fox and they had Kerry winning it by 2-1. Now you know that people going to Fox are not going to vote like that unless they have been directed to. I think the online polls are intended to give a false impression. obviously.

Bush was good tonight and he was comfortable, People know what they feel. At least I hope they do.

If the polls do not give this to Bush then I think a lot of poeple will be wondering.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:03 pm 61. ms anne:

I spent yesterday at ASU watching the hardball and crossfire broadcasts and enjoying the enthusiastic crowd. as i watched the coverage today i realized that the candidates are walk-ons to the media show. bush and kerry got an hour and a half, shared with pontifical cbs-man. the media started at noon with talking heads and barely paused for the debate before charging on with their production. i think there is no doubt that the reaction numbers (kerry by a home run/ bush strikes out!!!!) are created to hype the glowing commentary by msnbc and cnn. our election, and unfortunately our security and future, are now controlled and presented by the press–which is determined to defeat bush. he is running against a monolithic juggernaut of constant media carping, news suppression, and adulation bordering on worship of the “anybody but bush” ticket. kerry doesn’t have to show up. in fact, he’ll be more effective if he doesn’t show up, and just lets the media create his image unimpeded by his sorry visage. the powers of the presidency to reach american citizens is being deliberately short-circuited by the communications industry. in a society committed to brands, image, and pseudo reality as manipulated by artists of illusion, the raw and deadly facts of jihad,beheading, and war are presented as a stupid choice bush made, not as an attack against our very survival. let’s all hold hands, sing “we shall overcome”, and skip happily toward the peaceful sunset with a kerry victory. american citizens battled back against 9/11, but can they withstand the daily onslaught advocating submission to european passivity and murderous jihadists as local nuisances? i’m hoping for a harry truman resurgence, but i fear my optimism is out-of-date.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:17 pm 62. John Clayton:

So Democrats plan on stealing the election through voter fraud? In Psych 101 we learned about a concept called “projection.”

Remember the Clark County, Nevada story about employees of a voter registration firm ripping up Democratic forms and keeping only Republican registrants? Here’s what the local cognoscenti said about the story yesterday:

“…The same complaint filed at his local sheriff’s department would not only be acted on, it would make national news. So [John Clayton] continues malicious attempts to discredit the election process. On November 3, he will be standing in his jammies shouting “we was robbed”.” Ray

“So if you tell me that Republicans are trashing new Democrat registrants I know it must be lie. It must mean that Democrats are trashing new Republican registrants.” jerry

“John Clayton

…widespread pattern of potential registration fraud aimed at democrats [by] Voters Outreach of America, AKA America Votes.You might want to do a little research before posting, John.

America votes is funded by the AFL-CIO, Emily’s List, MoveOn, and other “progressive” groups. You seem to be claiming that democrat voters are being disenfranchised by other democrats.

You might want to do a little research before posting, John.” flenser

——————–

So here’s what a day later has revealed about the company which shredded Democratic registrants’ forms:

Sproul & Associates is a Republican consulting firm run by Nathan Sproul, former head of the Arizona Republican party and Arizona Christian Coalition

A local librarian checking on a companyís request to set up a voter registration booth in the library discovered the company was not affiliated with a non-partisan national group as it claimed.

Sproul & Associates, Inc. of Phoenix, Ariz., phoned and mailed the library in September, saying it had been hired by America Votes.

That came as news to America Votes.

“This organization (Sproul) absolutely has nothing to do with America Votes,” said Kevin Looper, the state organizing director for America Votes.

“The company has been largely, if not entirely funded, by the Republican National Committee.”

————-

So guys, I’m curious about something. What does crow taste like?

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:18 pm 63. George Purcell:

Why the personal attacks? I like this blog because, mainly, folks are respectful.

I thought the debate was boring mainly because of the terrible questions asked. Flu Vaccine??? Excuse me???? I’ll be a quarter of the viewers switched to one of the playoff games due to that question alone.

Both candidates trotted out the same attack lines for a third debate in a row. I don’t feel like I learned anything new about either candidate, really.

I do think that Kerry seemed more focused and handled the questions better. Hence, I feel that he won. But, as I am basically a single issue voter (the war on Islamofacism) it doesn’t make any real difference.

My decision, and why I waver, is because of the “global test” gaffe.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:22 pm 64. thibaud:

Flunk the eyeball test and zaaap — one more Mexican fried with a laser. Sounds like a plan to me

Yep, for every problem, Kerry indeed has a plan.

Kerry reminds me of the Kevin Spacey character in “Usual Suspects”: call him Verbal. The man with a plan.

Or perhaps Keyser Soszay?

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:22 pm 65. Jamie Irons:

Beldar

I’ve really enojoyed reading your blog

The Evel Knievel story was great!

And what’s with the self-deprecation about self-indulgence? If a guy can’t be self-indulgent on his own blog, then where the hell can he be?

Jamie Irons

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:23 pm 66. Sandy P:

Uhh, John? Have you ever heard of Bill Hobbs?

He has a fraud roundup, which state do you want to talk about, CO?

FLA?

OH?

PA?

ACORN has been very, very busy. Also interesting they’re splitting off from the Dems on 11/3 to push their progressive agenda.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:25 pm 67. Rick Ballard:

George,

Your current comment is certainly worthy of discussion. I think your first comment may have been misconstrued as a “drive by” troll post. I don’t believe that anyone learned anything new this evening either. But I don’t agree that Kerry was more focused. I believe that he fumbled and obfuscated tonight at a much higher level than previously.

What in Kerry’s illustrious history makes you believe that he is more capable in running an organization larger than his Senate office? I really mean, specifically, what has the man accomplished that would give anyone a modicum of confidence that he can do anything besides talk?

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:30 pm 68. thibaud:

One way arond this is simply not to watch any MSM. Apart from glancing at some AP headlines on the Yahoo home page I have virtually no interaction with dino-media any more.

Funny, with the exception of the WSJ, same for me too.

If I want updates on the war, I’ll got to a potpurri of military sites (www.command-post.org, http://www.belmontclub.blogspot.com, sometimes http://www.strategypage.com, and even Rantburg.com and http://www.Debka.com).

If I want views on economics I’ll go to the journal, the trade press websites or economists’ personal websites.

And if I want views on politics I’ll go to http://www.realclearpolitics.com plus National Journal (esp Dick Morris’s articles) and Charlie Cook’s report and the blogosphere.

Who needs the NY Times for anything other than Mahattan style tips? And who needs the networks for anything whatsoever? I haven’t paid for a newspaper or seen a nightly newscast in over seven years. I suspect there are millions of middle-aged professionals whose behavior fits the saem description.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:31 pm 69. flenser:

George Purcell

Both candidates trotted out the same attack lines for a third debate in a row. I don’t feel like I learned anything new about either candidate, really.

I did not watch any of the debates myself, since I was quite sure there would not be anything to learn by doing so.

Might I ask what you expected to learn about either Bush or Kerry from these debates?

Both men are pretty well known quantities at this point. If you read this blog you are familiar with Kerry’s mindset. I’m honestly interested; what is there about the man that would make anyone even consider voting for him as president of the US? Can you provide what you see as the pro’s and con’s of Bush abd Kerry, in a few lines?

Clayton

You are becoming an annoying troll, as opposed to an amusing one. I’m glad an actual Kerry supporter thinks vote fraud is wrong. Now if you can just make that point to the Kerry campaign…

And learn to provide links rather than cut-and-pasting from unknown sources. It makes it easier to check what you are saying, if anyone wants to bother.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:39 pm 70. George Purcell:

Rick, I’m a yellow dog Democrat…or at least I was until 9/11. I think Bush and the Republicans want to remove all sources of wealth from taxation, and leave taxation of wages as the sole source of revenues and a natural break on the size of government. They have furthered these goals in Bush’s term–estates are no longer taxed. Dividends are taxed at a lower rate. I think a second Bush term would lead to a push to remove interest from taxation.

I believe that it is morally wrong for the holders of wealth to be divorced from the responsibility of paying for the government that protects them.

Kerry would stop this movement and, hopefully, roll much of it back, simply because he is a Democrat.

That said, I worry, deeply, about Kerry’s ability to prosecute the war on terror. I think he will cut and run in Iraq.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:39 pm 71. Terrye:

John:

Do you even know how elections work? In Florida one of the problems in 2000 was that the Democratic county official hired a relative to do a job she did not show up for. Elections are run locally, not from the state house. I have been around enough of them to know that.

And besides with the dead rising from the

graves in Louisiana and Cook County to vote Democrat and the Republican cmapaign offices being ransacked I think the Democrats are the ones to watch this time. A woman’s arm was broken in one of the breakins. Don’t it make ya proud?

Democrats should be ashamed of themselves and coming up with a lot of bogus crap and hiring thousands of lawyers in the hopes that if they get beat [please God] they can put the country through months of hell is not inspiring confidence. Niether is sending out emails to people to vote as many times as possible in on line polls and all kinds of manipulative and dishonest tactics. I am ashamed to say I voted Democratic myself for years.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:40 pm 72. Sandy P:

George, “global test” is not a gaffe, it’s a belief.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=357339

Ten months after returning home from Vietnam, a young John Kerry strolled into the offices of The Harvard Crimson on Feb. 13, 1970 as an obscure underdog in the Democratic Congressional primary….

ìIím an internationalist,î Kerry told The Crimson in 1970. ìIíd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations.î

Kerry said he wanted ìto almost eliminate CIA activity. The CIA is fighting its own war in Laos and nobody seems to care.î

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:43 pm 73. John Clayton:

Now for a moment of truth about tonight’s debate: the beginning minutes were so boring that even baseball haters probably switched to Fox. I know I did on several occasions. But after about 40 minutes, both guys got tired enough that they occasionally reacted instead of acting, which meant a marked improvement in their responses. And both did better with answers where they weren’t trying to fit in rehearsed one-liners or sound bite paragraphs. As someone who will vote for Kerry on election day, I have no hesitation in saying that the man hasn’t a clue as to how to connect with the public on an issue of consequence- and in spite of the assistance of Saturday Live, he can’t quit using the word “plan” or babbling on after answering a question. It’s like he thinks all questions are essay questions and the student who provides the most information gets the best grade. For written tests, that might work. Speaking on television- definitely a no-no.

On the other hand, Bush did a far better job of being the frat rat hazing the oddball geek who would rather study than drink. I enjoyed the “Ted Kennedy is the conservative senator from Massachusetts” remark, although that was probably a little bit too much inside the beltway humor for undecided independents who don’t care about either party. Problem is, at the end of the day, or to continue the metaphor, the morning after, we need the geek to clean up the mess left by the jovial frat guy. That’s probably why the majority of viewers (52% to 39%) thought Kerry won the debate.

Bush’s biggest problem: in 2000 he had no record, and he could be whatever he said he was. And the media never looked behind the curtain to see who pulled the puppet strings or why. But in 2004, nothing he says can trump the reality of what his administration has meant for the country the last 4 years. He can love his wife and daughters, profess his faith, claim to love freedom and democracy, and that’s great. But losing jobs, outsourcing, high gas prices, an incompetent post war plan, attempting to roll back the Clean Air Act, condoning increased levels of arsenic, mercury, and other pollutants, 5 million more without health care while premiums go up. These are facts that no amount of sunny optimism will dissipate. So I look for an ugly October surprise from Karl Rove.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:43 pm 74. Terrye:

George:

The holders of welath in this country pay over 80% of the taxes now.

I know when Clinton was in he raised taxes retroactively and it was not until Bush came along that I got that money back.

So get real.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:43 pm 75. Morgan:

Here’s a link to coverage of the America Votes deal…

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1097709842249210.xml&storylist=orlocal

I’ll wait for more information to come out before I eat any fowl more exotic than turkey, but if Democrat registrations were being thrown out (leaving the guy registering under the false impression that he was on the voter roll), that’s way beyond dirty politics.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:45 pm 76. Terrye:

BTW my brother is a small business man. He has a contracting company in Oklahoma that employs five men.

He is one of the people Kerry would raise taxes on and if he raises them enough one of those men may lose his job.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:46 pm 77. Barrett:

Kerry is an economic illiterate. He has never met a tax he didn’t like or a government solution that increases dependency on the government (which is his twisted way of building an entrenched voting consituency – vote for me because I will perpetuate the public dole.) Maybe I should send him a link to get an on-line MBA from Pheonix. For those who maybe struggling on the choice before us, here are some relevant facts about the US economy.

The CBO notes that the wealthiest 1 percent, in 2001, earned 15 percent of the income and paid 34 percent of all individual income taxes. (Add in the top 5% and the percent of individual taxes paid is more than 40%.) By comparison, the bottom 50 percent of all taxpayers earn 14 percent of all income and pay just 5 percent of all individual income taxes.

It is well documented that higher income households use fewer government services than lower income households — in fact, higher income households use substantially less. Mr. Kerry, why is it unfair for those who pay 40% of total income taxes to receive at least 40% of the benefits of tax cuts?

Statistics show that about 70% of ALL jobs in the private sector are created by privately owned businesses. There is little net job growth in the largest corporations. The most successful small business owners — the ones who net more than $200,000 in pre-tax earnings — create jobs at a rate 10 TIMES that of less successful small businesses. Mr. Kerry wants to tax the main engine of employment and income growth in the US.

Ninety percent (90%) of the capital used to expand the businesses by these successful private companies is retained earnings– i.e. earnings after taxes.

Mr. Kerry should explain, given these facts, how his policy to increase taxes on the most successful of small businesses would NOT hurt job creation in this country? Remember, if you take cash from these businesses, you force them to make choices such as raise prices which puts them at a competitive disadvantage or scale back hiring and investment in order to maintain profitability. (But then again, Mr. Kerry has never built a business or held a private sector job.) Mr. Kerry also wants to increase the minimum wage, which will only make it harder for unskilled labor to find gainful employment.

Let’s talk about healthcare for a moment. Kerry’s plan will add $900 billion per year to government spending. Where do you think the money is going to come from? Everyone, not just the “rich”, will be paying higher taxes. (His soak the rich theme is only designed to manipulate the feelings of voters, who are uninformed.)

Not only will Mr. Kerry’s healthcare plan increases costs, but it will institute disincentives to work and make incremental income, and squash medical innovation(e.g. pharmaceutical, biotech, medical devices, etc.)(This will also cost jobs.) Read this non-partison assessment of Mr. Kerry’s plan for healthcare in the US. This is so bad that it makes his foreign policy ideas look good in comparison (not that they are).

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st269/

Government is the most inefficient, costly method of providing goods and services. A vote for Mr. Kerry is a vote for higher taxes, lower incomes, higher unemployment and bigger government.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:46 pm 78. Terrye:

Morgan:

I heard the guy who brought the charges was a disgruntled employee and the charges had been flat out denied.

I hate when these things happen but stuff like this comes up every election. All it takes is a few idiots to screw a thing up you know.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:49 pm 79. Sandy P:

–I believe that it is morally wrong for the holders of wealth to be divorced from the responsibility of paying for the government that protects them.–

Warren Buffet could ante up any time he wants, he chooses not to. It also helps when one starts reaching my level that an insurance policy to pay the taxes is considered. And Warren’s in insurance, isn’t he? I don’t think the Treasury is going to see a $20 billion check from his estate, either, tho he thought it was good enough for us. I have issues w/people trying to take my money when they refuse to walk their talk.

60% own stock now, and yes, I do realize that includes tax-deferred accounts.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:50 pm 80. Barrett:

Correction: Mr. Kerry’s healthcare plan will add more than $1 trillion dollars to government spending over ten years.

Statistics can be manipulated and I want to be factual.

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:50 pm 81. Rick Ballard:

George,

I’m rather fascinated that you feel that the 20% who bear 80% of the tax load should bear even more. What basis in ethics or morals says that one individual should bear 100 times the societal burden of the individual next to them? There is an argument that says that an indivdual making a great deal of money must use a disproportionate amount of societal goods in doing so but I have never seen dispositive proof of the assertion. What societal goods are used in earning interest? The capital on which the interest is earned has already been taxed (if it’s accumulated earnings). Why is it necessary to tax it again when it is the source of the funds that banks disburse as loans?

And what has taxation to do with what you proclaim as the topic most important to you? Will imposing additional taxation on the wealthy make you safer?

Oct 13, 2004 - 9:53 pm 82. Sandy P:

George, somewhere in LGF’s somewhat recent archives, no earlier than July possibly, Kerry aided the North Vietnamese again. There is a school in Boston which was filling a postition and could choose from South Vietnamese or North to teach. Kerry intervened for the North. Diversity, you see. I believe there’s an active lawsuit, it was fairly recent.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:00 pm 83. Sandy P:

And then there’s the Senate investigation into POWs which was headed up by Kerry and McCain in the early 90s. Roger might have that in his archives, written by a conservative but published in The Village Voice. I think in Feb of this year.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:01 pm 84. John Clayton:

“And learn to provide links rather than cut-and-pasting from unknown sources. It makes it easier to check what you are saying, if anyone wants to bother.” flenser

I can’t operate my VCR either. But if you provide a cookbook type example, I’ll give linking a shot next time.

But it was big of you to publicly admit that you were wrong in saying that the organization “America Votes” that trashed Democratic registrants’ forms was a left wing organization. I doubt anyone would consider the RNC or the Christian Coalition as left wing.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:02 pm 85. Terrye:

On the subject of tax fraud what do our visiting Dems think of 40 or 50 thousand Dems [who happen to be snow birds] voting in both NY and Florida. Got a problem with that?

This year is going to be so bad that I would not put it past someone like Terry McAuliffe [Michael Moore's good buddy] to plant somebody to create a scandal.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:03 pm 86. Syl:

Go Bush!

I watched the whole thing, except for the first 15 minutes ’cause Joe was eating and didn’t want to watch…but was being auto-refreshed on a site that was live-blogging so I didn’t miss too much.

C-SPAN server was down again. I guess all those folks watching baseball were also watching the debate. The figures for how many watched won’t be counting them.

Anyway, Kerry didn’t strike me as being at all strong on domestic issues..just boilerplate populist. And who should Hardball have on right afterwards but, drumroll, Shrum. Gosh he looks like a chubby Charles Dickens. Image fits him well.

I really like Bush’s ideas a thousand times better then Kerry’s…and remember my ‘conversion’ was quite recent so I don’t know as much as most of you.

When Kerry talked about living his faith by doing good deeds or whatever, all I could think of was that road paved with good intentions I’ve walked all my life. Kerry, man, doing good deeds isn’t enough, you have to do deeds THAT WORK.

Bush just sounds so much more practical to me.

Shrug. But what do I know. The populist stuff resonated with me all my life so maybe I’m just confused. Or finally enlightened.

Kerry would solve the ‘overextended army’ problem by not using the military. So, Kerry, what exactly is the worry? Bush’s answer was great…the solution is training the Iraqi military to take over.

Oh, and Bush did say he wasn’t worried about Osama, but he had added Osama should be the one who is worried.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:04 pm 87. Armed Liberal:

“Why did Kerry’s mother feel she had to remind him “Intergity! Integrity! Integrity!” from her hospital bed when he told her he was thinking of running for President?” … I just couldn’t help thinking of Gene Kelley saying just those words in Singin’ In The Rain. He then spent ten minutes demonstrating the opposite…

A.L.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:05 pm 88. flenser:

George

As people here have already pointed out, the rich already pay virtually all of the taxes in this country. In my view that is not a healthy situation. This is actually a trend which has been ongong for a while. With every revision to the tax code another group of people get dropped from paying taxes. I simply cannot understand where you gat this idea that “the rich” are not paying their fair share. The truth is, they pay more than their fair share.

John Clayton.

Where to start?

We are not losing jobs, we are gaining them. The economy has been growing at over 4% for the past two years.

We are not outsourcing jobs, at least not any more than we were under Clinton. We also insource a lot of jobs from other countries. Which is why the unemployment rate is at a below average 5.4%.

The president does not set gas prices. Not yet at least. If we get the socialist John Kerry then perhaps he will attempt to implement price controls, but for now the price of gas is set by the market and has nothing at all to do with the president.

The Bush administration has not attempted to roll back the Clean Air Act.

The Bush administration has not “condoned increased levels of arsenic” etc, etc.

In short, John Clayton, practically everything you say is a barefaced lie.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:05 pm 89. Syl:

Reasons to vote for Kerry:

–No executive experience beyond staff in a prosecutor’s and senate office.

–No business experience except for a few months in a law firm.

–No major piece of legislation bearing his name in 20 years in the Senate.

–Only 5 pieces of legislation, written by him, ever became law in 20 years of the Senate.

–Not respected by the military.

–Virulently anti-war to the extent he even trashed our troops and met personally with the enemy.

–Believes force against an enemy means failure at diplomacy, which he would never allow.

And the number one reason to vote for Kerry:

Believes Islamist terrorism is just like the IRA.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:07 pm 90. Terrye:

John:

The point I am trying to make is that a lot of charges are out there on both sides and we don’t really know what the truth is.

If you don’t mind I would rather wait until we really know.

I remember when the whole forged document thing started a lot of people were jumping the gun there too.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:07 pm 91. TmjUtah:

People who work hard and succeed should not be dinged by John Tax Law just because they are too few in number to defend themselves at the ballot box.

I believe that tiered taxation is in contradiction to equal treatment under the law.

Without we have a vibrant, aggressive, ambitious, and optimistic entrepeneurial class, there won’t be any jobs for anyone to pay taxes from.

Punitive taxation of the most productive members of a society leads to cases like france, Germany, and the rest of tottering old Europe. I believe we’ll have an object lesson in the follies of excessive levels of socialism over there within the next few years. Funny thing is, they are still writing three and five year plans to outcompete us.

After tonight, my fears about seeing the same disaster here are much relieved.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:09 pm 92. Rick Ballard:

Kaus calls it a tie – advantage W.

Given how deep he is in the tank for Kerry I’d call that dispositive proof that W won big.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:09 pm 93. flenser:

John Clayton

But it was big of you to publicly admit that you were wrong in saying that the organization “America Votes” that trashed Democratic registrants’ forms was a left wing organization.

No, you intellectual enunch, I did not say that. YOU said that. I was quoting your own post.

This is from your original post.

“…widespread pattern of potential registration fraud aimed at democrats [by] Voters Outreach of America, AKA America Votes.”

You were the one who described fraud by America Votes. Not me. You. Is it sinking in yet, John? Do I need to explain it you more clearly, perhaps with diagrams?

Come back, hollywood! We’ll appreciate you more now.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:15 pm 94. Eliza:

I’m flabbergasted that no one seems to have noted the open fury on Teresa’s face after the wife question. The President’s answer was shining with passionate, genuine love for his wife. He adores her. Every woman dreams of finding a mate who would speak of her with such ardor after decades of marriage. By contrast, invited to praise his wife, enumerate her virtues, and declare his devotion, John Kerry declined, and jokingly implied that he married THK for her money — the joke was very much at THK’s expense; compounding the insult, he then took the opportunity to extol his MOTHER in her place.

When THK marched onto the stage after the debate she looked as if she was going to saw his head off and toss it into the audience. Mr. Kerry sleeps alone tonight — probably with one eye open.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:19 pm 95. Sandy P:

Arsenic?

We’re back to arsenic? So, John, how many people were dying at the now former level?

I’m surprised you didn’t mention checking for ecoli in the chicken plants.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:20 pm 96. John Clayton:

Barrett: You’ve just pointed out Kerry’s inadequacies as a debater. How would you respond if he had said:

“President Bush wants to remove all taxes- down to zero- on millionaires who lie around their siwmming pools all day, party at the club all night, and make all of their money clipping coupons, collecting dividends, and trading stock. And when they die, they get to leave their millions, tax free, to the next generation, who will repeat the cycle.”

Since Bush wants to eliminate all taxes on capital gains, dividends, and estates, that’s an accurate statement of Bush’s position on tax (un)fairness.

And did you notice that every time Kerry brought up taxing the rich, Bush mentioned small businesses but wouldn’t defend cutting taxes on millionaires who don’t work? Could it be that even Bush didn’t want to defend cutting billions in taxes on the wealthy elites who do nothing productive?

Plus, your tax figures that ascribe most of the taxes to the wealthy don’t take into account sales taxes, OASDI and Medicare, for which the poor pay proportionately higher rates that the rich. On Social Security taxes, millionaire earners pay less than 1%, compared to about 8% on wage earners getting less than $80,000 a year.

The biggest shame in all this is that both Kerry and Bush would rather make the system more complex and unbalanced with credits, deductions and different classifications of income, than to cut out all credits and deductions and tax all inome equally. I think the average taxpayer would stand up and cheer if either came out foursquare for complete simplification- the post card tax return.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:21 pm 97. John Clayton:

“John Clayton

But it was big of you to publicly admit that you were wrong in saying that the organization “America Votes” that trashed Democratic registrants’ forms was a left wing organization.

No, you intellectual enunch, I did not say that. YOU said that. I was quoting your own post….” Flenser.

Flenser: you had me at “John.” Ya big lug.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:23 pm 98. Goof®:

Armed Liberal

Dignity.

The indirect comparison to Keyser Soze is the biggest smile in awhile. One could wish.

Somewhere Goof is smiling. Indeed.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:26 pm 99. Fresh Air:

Flenser–

Eunuch? Please, Clayton is at most a capon.

Rick B.–

The snap polls at CNN are conducted by the reporters and producers making hash marks using Chapstick on the men’s room mirror. I believe Montgomery’s final plan for the invasion of Sicily was made the same way.

Clayton–

Don’t you have some signatures to collect or something?

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:28 pm 100. flenser:

John

As usual, you make zero sense.

1) America Votes is a left wing group.

http://www.americavotes.org/

2) According to you, there is a “…widespread pattern of potential registration fraud aimed at democrats [by] Voters Outreach of America, AKA America Votes”

So please explain why you expect me to “publicly” admit that I was “wrong”. What, precisely, do you imagine I was wrong about?

Consider this a test, John. Lets see if you can form a thought and articulate it clearly.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:39 pm 101. Syl:

Eliza

“When THK marched onto the stage after the debate she looked as if she was going to saw his head off and toss it into the audience.”

I noticed that!! I saw how angry she looked and made the same connection you did.

Man, I would have been royally p*ssed myself.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:48 pm 102. Sandy P:

The poor also get Section 8, food stamps, WIC, TANF, EITC, medicaid, supplemental SS, and a host of other state and local programs. I donate to help defray winter heating costs. Of course, I would also like to see the poor who accept that aid be responsible for at least weatherstripping their abode.

But no one ever really talks about inkind bennies.

Oct 13, 2004 - 10:56 pm 103. Lakedog66:

I thought it was interesting that Kerry feels that illegal aliens and terrorists can be stopped at the border with “fingerprint and iris” technology. I doubt that we had access to any of the 9/11 terrorists iris’s until we dug them out of the rubble.

As for Mary “Fair Game” Cheney…that sickened me. I would hate for someone that wants my job to pick on my daughter. Not cool at all.

And did Kerry look like he was walleyed tonight? It may be blackeyed after Teresa gets him for his crack on her. And I agree…my mother wouldn’t have HAD to tell me Integrity.

Greetings from East Tennessee……Lakedog.

Oct 13, 2004 - 11:11 pm 104. penwil:

Once again I went to the opera rather than watching the debate. However during intermission I overheard two of the ushers talking about how Bush was doing really well, and given how this is San Francisco and the ushers had long faces as they said this, I figured that Bush must really have been exceeding expectations. I mean, if two San Francisco liberals are crediting Bush with a win, then he had a win. FWIW

Oct 13, 2004 - 11:38 pm 105. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

John Clayton

President Bush wants to remove all taxes- down to zero- on millionaires who lie around their siwmming pools all day, party at the club all night, and make all of their money clipping coupons, collecting dividends, and trading stock. And when they die, they get to leave their millions, tax free, to the next generation, who will repeat the cycle.”

Since Bush wants to eliminate all taxes on capital gains, dividends, and estates, that’s an accurate statement of Bush’s position on tax (un)fairness./i>

Amazing. Bush wants to eliminate double taxation on capital gains. This makes tremendous sense,the double taxation causes companies to be less responsible to stockholders and the honesty of stock pricing.

People making money “clipping couopons” are people who are loaning money to the government or other people. You say “wealthy elites who do nothing productive?.

Those who understand neither capitalism nor human behavior think that way. In fact, investing is a job. It is part of the information processing to make the system work.

Estate taxes were originally pushed by the communists. The idea is that someone should not be able to pass on their wealth. It is a deep interference into the family, and has remarkably bad effects on small businesses and families that are not rich, but have enough money that inheritance taxes hit.

So your complaints are consistent – they are both ultimately based on two things:

-Utter ignorance of how capitalism works.

-The ugly but all too common human emotion of envy.

You have a strange stereotype of rich people. Yes, there are some people who have a lazy do-nothing life. On BOTH ends of the income scale. Should we distort our economic system and strongly skew our tax systems and related economic policy so people don’t feel envious or be annoyed.

Grow up. The world is not fair, and the leftist approaches to change that have always failed, with great damage to freedoms and economic systems.

I am a person who sold a small business. Guess what – I was a rich person that year, as far as the tax laws were concerned. They didn’t take into account the yars of work and struggle without making that much mony, or the lack of a retiremenramt program. It did matter that the next year I would bu an employee not making a huge income. It simply stole my money. This has happened to me three times. I know how it works and it is extremely unfair and counterproductive.

I know quite a few millionaires. I only know a couple who don’t work, and they are not rich by today’s standards – they live a middle class life in middle class houses with middle class cars. They are near retirement age. They contribute to society by investing, and by other projects. They don’t own jets (couldn’t afford them) and are not jet setters and don’t match any other stereotype. This is true of the vast majority of millionaires.

Furthermore, with the exception of the death tax, high tax rates don’t hurt the truly rich, they hurt the well off (but not rich) and worse, they hurt those who are trying to improve their financial position. They are a disincentive. They make it hard to accumulate wealth, but not at all hard to have wealth.

If you tax $100,000,000 from George Soros, it isn’t going to change his lifestyle in the least, which is why the truly rich – billionaires – are often for tax increases and estate taxes.

But tax $1,000,000 from someone whose parent had assets of $2,000,000 and you have seriously changed their lifestyle – especially at retirement.

The Democrat envy-based tax ideas always ultimately hit the upper middle class and for true funding, the full middle classe. It doesn’t hurt the rich, it hurts the rest of us.

Class warfare is ugly – based on envy and a misunderstanding of capitalism. It is based on the failure to understand that in America, financial status varies dramatically for individuals through their lifetime, but rather assumes that the rich and high income always have been andn always will be that way, which is simply nonsense for the majority of those people.

Oct 13, 2004 - 11:44 pm 106. the_epistoler:

Immediate debate aftermath thoughts immediately updated here.

Oct 14, 2004 - 12:13 am 107. Yehudit:

“Bush’s biggest problem: in 2000 he had no record, and he could be whatever he said he was. And the media never looked behind the curtain to see who pulled the puppet strings or why.”

Earth to John:

Two-term governor?

Owner of successful baseball team?

Oct 14, 2004 - 1:23 am 108. Yehudit:

“It may be blackeyed after Teresa gets him for his crack on her.”

I whispered to a friend a the debate party as Teresa walked toward the stage: “Looks like John-boy is sleeping on the couch tonight.”

Oct 14, 2004 - 1:26 am 109. Yehudit:

“Roger might have that in his archives, written by a conservative but published in The Village Voice.”

Nat Hentoff is not a conservative. He is a 1st amendment absolutist, but pretty leftist in other ways. But unlike much of the left, he is scruplously honest.

Oct 14, 2004 - 1:55 am 110. Matt Evans:

Couple of things:

Eliza, I did notice the thing with his wife- more importantly, my fiancee noticed it (and she’s not very political) and commented on it. Anybody else notice that Kerry had a softball question on his wife and he started talking about his mother instead ? Also, “I married up”? Wow, no wonder Kerry doesn’t resonate well withy female voters- what an utterly ridiculous thing to come out and say. Theresa coming up onto stage obviously loathes then man.

I’m a little surprised that people are so shocked Bush did well on two debates on domestic policy. The way I see it, domestic policy involves alot of management and proper funds allocation. WHen it comes down to it, government can’t fund everything and the president’s job is to work with Congress in funding the most important stuff. Thus, its not very different from being a CEO of a big company or business organization (or gov. of a large state). Bush should do well in domestic policy and here’s why – because he actually looks at the bottom line- how the hell are we going to pay for XYZ program. Bush hammered Kerry on this last night- everytime he said “One Trillion Dollars” I just laughed- to Joe Sixpack, one trillion dollars is an utterly unfathomable figure and Kerry wants to spend how much ? Finally, maybe I’m just an uneducated schmoe but fiscal and domestic issues are just a bit easier to talk about if I’m Bush, who frequently gets tripped up by names of foreign leaders and jerkoff terrorists. He seemed comfortable up there, which is the most important factor for W.

Finally, did anybody else catch the part where Kerry said he disagreed with Allan Greenspan on the economy ? Yes, John, with your extensive experience dealing with ground breaking bills which have changed the face of the ecnomoy, its hard not to believe you over Allan Fing Greenspan.

Oct 14, 2004 - 5:57 am 111. jerry:

I have a confession to make. I didn’t watch the debate last night or even read the blogs until this morning. I watched the playoffs. The curse of the Bambino lives. Perhaps the gods of baseball do not want JFKs home team led by Manny Ortiz to win the World Series.

Oct 14, 2004 - 6:25 am 112. Sandy P:

It was Nat Hentoff, Yehudit?

I could have sworn the blurb said conservative, but I read so much and it was a few months ago. I think Instapundit also has it.

Oct 14, 2004 - 6:35 am 113. Daniel Calto:

I have been struck by how many female bloggers commented on how incredibly angry Teresa looked after Kerry’s flat-footed quip about “marrying up.”

Men might not notice these things as much, but to me Kerry’s comments came across as extraordinariliy ungenerous and emotionally cold, especially in contrast to Bush’s genuine feeling.

Who could diss his own wife so publicly? Very chilly. I think I’m understanding a little more why Teresa is always rambling on about John Heinz in public…

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:11 am 114. Lola:

Yehudit

Earth to John:

Two-term governor?

Owner of successful baseball team?

Add that business school stint to the list as well.

Now, Hubby and I were at a friend’s home last night for dinner. We watched the debate. Actually, it was rather more like the tv was on as background noise, I was talking to my friend about neo versus paleo Republicanism. Hubby was lying on the floor with his eyes shut and his arm positioned over his eyes. All he was doing was listening to it and commenting on the stupidity of some of the remarks. Friend’s roomate who is for Kerry was in the living room but went upstairs after a while (he’s in a play and is a teacher so he’s got lots of things going on).

Hallellujah . . . the debates are over, and Bush held his own. I did get a brief glimpse of Teresa HK’s face and thought she looked p**ed off. And Kerry’s remark about what his mother said just sounded so bizarre to me. As did the “marrying up bit” – ugh. There’s a big difference between Reagan saying that he married up and Kerry saying that he married up.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:19 am 115. Lola:

The other thing is that it seems that Kerry still has mommy issues (shouldn’t guys his age be past such mommy issues???).

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:24 am 116. richard mcenroe:

George ó As far back as the 80’s Kerry was caught shovelling his money into offshore tax shelters.

Kerry has yet to release his and his wife’s tax information.

Massachusetts has an optional two-tier tax rate; people who feel the need can voluntarily pay higher taxes. Kerry has never taken advantage of that chance to take a stand.

He has no right to talk about taxation.

Kerry is a major stockholder in a corporation that does nothing BUT help companies outsource US jobs overseas. He has no right to talk about unemployment.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:24 am 117. Charlie (Colorado):

I think Bush and the Republicans want to remove all sources of wealth from taxation, and leave taxation of wages as the sole source of revenues and a natural break on the size of government. They have furthered these goals in Bush’s term–estates are no longer taxed. Dividends are taxed at a lower rate. I think a second Bush term would lead to a push to remove interest from taxation.

Gee, George, you say that like it wuz a bad thing.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:27 am 118. Knucklehead:

Once again I haven’t been through the comments. Just tossing out another knuckleheaded anecdote. There was no way I was watching even a minute of the debate last night. I know who I’m voting for and its baseball playoff time and I the only clicking I do is between games and reports of games.

My older daughter is a rabid fan (a chip off the ol’ concrete block) and a pretty busy young woman. I would not have wagered a nickle that she would have been tuned in to the debate last night with her team playing for a league championship.

So when the phone rang during a tense part of the game and it was her I figured we were about to embark on a baseball chat. What I got instead was a one-way ranting screed about what an incredible jerk Kerry was and how pissed off she was getting listening to him. Coulda knocked me over with a feather. We’re talking full-fledged rant mode here – one oughta be controlling one’s language a bit more carefully when ranting to Dad kinda stuff.

Her major complaint was that all Kerry seemed to do was talk about how terrible everything is, all the earth shaking, doomsday problems there are in the world and then claim he’ll magically solve them all and never says anything about how he’ll do it. (This is pretty much what I heard during the last debate and mentioned here.)

Just sayin’.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:28 am 119. Clio:

Roger cuts to the chase with his post-debate question: why, given the strong performance by Bush and the “more of the same” hang-dog, monotone whining of Kerry, do “the people” seem to have given the night to the Senator?

In a word: Bush was too rational, too NUANCED. Go figure.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:30 am 120. julie:

Roger:

The so called independent voters used in these instant polls are “democratic leaning” independent voters. How’s that for dishonesty.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:33 am 121. Charlie (Colorado):

I can’t operate my VCR either. But if you provide a cookbook type example, I’ll give linking a shot next time.

John, it’s simpler than operating a VCR. Here’s how it works: you type a little fragment of HTML.

Easiest thing to do is to go back to the browser window from which you cut and pasted the text, click to highlight the link itself — the line of text that starts with “http” — and copy it (usually press control-C) to the clipboard. (This thing is called “the URL” for “Uniform Resource Locator”.)

Come back to the place where you’re making the command and type <a href=”, then paste in the URL, then type “> your link here </a>.

So, for example, if I type <a href=”http://www.instapundit.com/”>a link to Instapundit</a> I get a link to Instapundit.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:38 am 122. Charlie (Colorado):

Since Bush wants to eliminate all taxes on capital gains, dividends, and estates, that’s an accurate statement of Bush’s position on tax (un)fairness.

John, unless Bush has suggested eliminating the alternative minimum tax — not a bad idea either — then what you’re saying is incorrect.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:41 am 123. Jamie Irons:

Matt Evans

You wrote:

…maybe I’m just an uneducated schmoe but fiscal and domestic issues are just a bit easier to talk about if I’m Bush, who frequently gets tripped up by names of foreign leaders and jerkoff terrorists.

Matt, you characterized yourself as “just an uneducated schmoe,” but you seem highly intelligent to me. (And G_d knows, education has little to do with intelligence!)

For a long time I’ve been trying to come up with a phrase that does justice to my hatred and disdain for people who become terrorists.

You’ve just done it for me!

Jamie Irons

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:44 am 124. Rick Ballard:

Lola,

Did you see Charlie (C)’s comment on the “mommy issues” the other day? I’m wary of long distance pyschoanalysis but there is definitely something weird going on with Kerry. Roger’s comment concerning integrity really rings a bell.

I imagine that Kerry spent half the night explaining to Teresa about the billion reasons that he loves her.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:45 am 125. Fausta:

Who are they polling?

Clearly not the Family Circle crowd. Mrs Bush’s Oatmeal Chocolate Chunk cookies won, with 67% of the vote. The Election Cookie Cookoff has predicted the winner since it was established in 1988.

A different type of cookbook example, perhaps.

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:49 am 126. Sandy P:

The W head on the disabled body poster is about to hit the TN fan, via Bill Hobbs:

The Jackson Sun, a newspaper in West Tennessee, reports that there will be a news conference at 1 p.m. today at Legislative Plaza in Nashville at which “the Special Olympics, the Tennessee Disability Coalition and candidates in the race for a seat in the Tennessee House of Representatives” will discuss the “distasteful political flier” circulated via the campaign headquarters of an incumbent Democrat state legislator. More coverage of the story here from WMC-TV (Memphis). The Knoxville News-Sentinel web site carries the same AP story that I linked to yesterday. Nothing in today’s Memphis Commercial Appeal (the big-city daily nearest the events) or The Tennessean….

–

Of course it was only up there for a few minutes and it’s Republican dirty tricks….

except it’s been available for 2 weeks….

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:50 am 127. Sandy P:

The W head on the disabled body poster is about to hit the TN fan, via Bill Hobbs:

The Jackson Sun, a newspaper in West Tennessee, reports that there will be a news conference at 1 p.m. today at Legislative Plaza in Nashville at which “the Special Olympics, the Tennessee Disability Coalition and candidates in the race for a seat in the Tennessee House of Representatives” will discuss the “distasteful political flier” circulated via the campaign headquarters of an incumbent Democrat state legislator. More coverage of the story here from WMC-TV (Memphis). The Knoxville News-Sentinel web site carries the same AP story that I linked to yesterday. Nothing in today’s Memphis Commercial Appeal (the big-city daily nearest the events) or The Tennessean….

–

Of course it was only up there for a few minutes and it’s Republican dirty tricks….

except it’s been available for 2 weeks….

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:51 am 128. Rick Ballard:

Charlie (C),

I appreciate the kindness that you are showing John by explaining how to link but couldn’t you have included a little piece on putting your thumb in a light socket while standing in a full bath tub?

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:53 am 129. Buddy Larsen:

John Clayton, let me disabuse of some part of your ‘Fall of the Roman Empire’ vision of debauched millionaires lolling poolside while the hoi polloi struggles at the iron mill.

My parents are from working families. My dad returned from a WWII P.O.W. camp, struggled through to a geology degree, and after a career as a salaryman for Shell Oil took a flyer with a tiny exploration company which pulled him from Shell with stock options in the new venture. If he didn’t hit oil, he goes belly up. But a lifetime of hard work had made him of value to the new founder (T. Boone Pickens, you may’ve heard the name). Anyway, after a decade of struggle, they hit big, and dad passed away in the late 80s leaving about 8 million bucks to mom.

My 3 sibs and I could’ve harassed mom to do some tax-abating estate planning, but we’re all just country small biz folks, and mom never wanted to talk about money, so we didn’t. She had a stroke and died a little over a year ago. We paid the estate tax, 49%, about 4 million bucks. It ate all the cash and fungible equivalents, and the remainder, about 4 mm in real estate, is divvying up to the 4 heirs. We’ll sell it, and then pay our own personal taxes on those proceeds. We’ll each end up with a very helpful few hundred thou; it’ll mean my kids can do a few semesters at Univ of Texas without the usual need to hold down jobs while pursuing the degrees. They’re thrilled, they can go deeper academically as a result. We’re not complaining, we’re deeply respectful of our parents effortsd and lives, and are plenty grateful for the windfall. A serendipity is just that. But, from the standpoint of macro-economics, I take keyboard in hand here to try to publically personalize a few data points for folks like you, with an eye toward lending a hand with the ‘why can’t we all just get along?’ project.

(1) That money was taxed when Mesa earned it, then dad paid more taxes to own the end sum. Dad took enormous risks–every sort of risk, personal, finacial–to find, produce and sell maybe 4x worth of oil in order to keep the 8 mm, half of which we then then handed over in estate taxes. Uncle Sam’s up by roughly 28 mm at this point. I left the oil patch (I was a globe-traveling always-away-from-home drilling fluid tech my life before farming) in the mid 80s and started a farm. Ronld Reagan’s paens to small biz entrepreneurship had sparkled my eyes, and I wanted to raise my own 4 kids–whom the oil patch had kept me from most of their lives–on a farm.

(2) For 15 yrs I fought like a demon, 18 hr workdays x 365, to stay above water with my dairy goat herd and creamery and my own label Larsen Farms Texas Chevre. One of my biggest ongoing problems was my location an hour from austin put me in easy driving range of the FDA/state regulators, who sent an endless stream of state regulators who had administrative law power over my (never failed a hygeine test) operation, with a 20 lb regulation book and careers needing scalps. These well-paid G-men, looking forward to fat pensions and impossible to fire, put out work product that in quality and volume wouldv’e served them their heads after a week of private-enterprise.

Clinton Era regulators had asses full of vinegar anyway, and they liked my place because they could easily take a full ‘in-the-field’ day out-of-office, at a time-cost to them personally of only two hours round-trip drive in the country, plus the hour they’d spend writing me up for meaningless violations culled from the fine-print and footnotes of the 20 lb regulation-book, that nevertheless cost me fortunes in time and aggravation (one of them would often leave my place by noon and go kayaking on Town Lake the rest of his taxpayer-paid day, and if I raised a stink, things’d only get worse for me).

Most in my position would’ve devolved to the ass-kissing they wanted, but I got my back up early on and fought back, on abuse-of-power issues. I’d never’ve sold a molecule of bad cheese, ANYWAY (hell, ya couldn’t stay in business if ya did)! But I’d gotten mad over a mid-level Lord’s obtuseness early on, complained, and was a screwed duck from then on. But I endured i5 yrs, until just recently, netting about 50k a year to operate my family on, with flagging energy the handwriting on the wall(I’m 58), I laid off my employees (local housewives who still haven’t found new jobs, in this rural area where light-manufacturing is rare), shut down ops, and put the place on the market.

But, main thread, John Clayton, and back to my main points:

(3) Some of that estate tax, say a quarter of that 49% one million that I paid, could’ve stepped my business up to the next level, some new processing equipment (profits for the vendors!) to replace my labor-intensive worn-out units, and a couple more employees (who would not have been paid to kayak on Town Lake) would’ve gotten me out of the milking parlor and into my office, to plan, and expand. As it was, the sheer physicality of livestock handling wore my knees out, bank loans I wanted no more of, interest payments already a major drain and my age making an iffy proposition of a debt-to-equity increase . I didn’t go belly up. I just lost hope in achieving the growth I needed in order to maintain the spirit of the struggle.

(4) None of what I’ve related to you would bother me in the least if I didn’t know for a fact that a very large proportion of that tax money is spent by the government with only a fraction of the efficiency and impact that it would have, if left in the hands of those who earned it. Think, ‘jobs’ !

(5) Yes, I support my government! Yes, yes, YES, I’m a patriotic American and I believe in the progressive tax system. I demand that we all respect the social compact, and that those up-ladder (overwhelmingly those with more time in the system) must help those down-ladder (overwhemingly those with less time in the system). What I’m saying is, abuse exists big time, and is progressively being baked into the system by the same forces that animate the current leadership of the Democratic party. If we don’t object now, we shall soon lose “America” as we know it.

Foolish parlor-gaming theorists like you, with your gratuitously insulting cartoon-analyses of other citizens’ lives, don’t have the foggiest notion of what you’re talking about. You’re just talking, that’s all. A word hog, like your presidential candidate. What DO you do for a living, anyway?

Oct 14, 2004 - 7:56 am 130. jerry:

Fausta:

Let’s not repeat Pauline Cael’s mistake about Nixon. Just because we don’t know many people voting for Kerry doesn’t mean that he could not be ahead. So far, I have seen no reliable polling that would suggest that my pessimism of yesterday is unfounded. I agree with many folks that the commentary in the media would indicate that Bush won last night, (Republicans elated, Democrats posturing), however, these “expert” groups are no gauges of how the debates affected voter sentiments. We will have to wait until the weekend to see if Kerry’s momentum has been checked.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:00 am 131. flenser:

Jerry

You seem to be giving the MSM credit for conducting accurate and impartial polling. Given their behavior to date, that seems extremely unlikely. Going by the public polls from here on is pointless; we’re just going to have to accept that we do not really know what’s happening and will not until Nov 2.

The campaign polls would be interesting, but we can only infer what they are saying.

Throw the polls out and sign up as a volunteer for the get-out-the-vote effort.

http://www.gop.com/

charlie

I suspect the Claybot knows perfectly well how to link. However, the article he is citing is actually a press release put out by America Votes (that is, put out by MoveOn and the AFL-CIO) which is why he is being so coy about his source.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:14 am 132. Mike D in SC:

… ‘Fall of the Roman Empire’ vision of debauched millionaires lolling poolside while the hoi polloi struggles at the iron mill.

I like to refer to this cartoonish view of “millionaires” as the “Scrooge McDuck” view. I suppose John Clayton believes that the typical millionaire has, like Scrooge McDuck, a warehouse full of cash behind the mansion, for use whenever the “millionaire” feels like wallowing in his cash. Scrooge McDuck even had a diving board in his.

Buddy Larson’s tale is far closer to the reality of most “millionaires”. They are the ones who work their tails off, becoming millionaires by building up successful businesses, usually by putting in hours that would be illegal if an employer forced them on an employee. (I once read an article that said that the most likely vehicle driven by the average millionaire would be a five year old Ford, as opposed to some kind of luxury or sports car. The main point was that conspicuous consumption is not typical among millionaires, but would actually keep most of them from becoming millionaires if they actually indulged in it.) It is these small businesses that are responsible for creating 60-80% of all new jobs.

The estate tax makes it difficult, if not impossible, to pass on a family business to the next generation. Without extensive and costly tax planning ahead of time, an heir inheriting a business is very likely to be forced to liquidate the business, and lay off the workforce, in order to pay the estate tax.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:21 am 133. Catherine:

I’m sick as a dog (sicker, actually); total immune system blow-out. Good thing I’m not running for President.

Anyways, I’ve managed to read through maybe half the thread, and had a couple of things to add:

Rick B

Why don’t you get some BC04 stickers and artfully place them in various places around the workplace when no one is around?

My sister and I both think the yellow-ribbon “Support Our Troops” bumper stickers are euphemisms for “Bush Cheney.”

Those stickers are everywhere here, and they’ve appeared in just the past couple of weeks.

I went back to IL this weekend to see my dad, and they were everywhere there, too. The yellow ones, and also the red-white-and-blue ones that also say “Support Our Troops.”

Some of them says, “Freedom isn’t free.”

Also, you’re right about the MSM. They’ve always been around, they’ve always been liberal, and yet we’ve had one Republican president after another.

Clinton’s big reforms were all Republican issues.

Jamie Irons

Don’t be depressed!

It’s all over but the semiotics:

What You See Is What You Get

But while the pundits have spent innumerable hours parsing the minutiae of each candidate’s oral communications, they have had nothing to say about the visual messages of the two candidates. As a graphic artist, I find this distressing. And as a Democrat, I’m sorry to have to declare President Bush the frontrunner in the competition for the best logo.

[snip]

A typical Kerry logo displays the same inconsistency that his opponents accuse him of. A steady visual message requires the consistent use of the same font over and over again. On a typical drive to work, I encounter no fewer than five typefaces used in as many different Kerry-Edwards logos. One is stretched out; another is condensed. One looks masculine; one looks feminine. In contrast to Mr. Bush’s aggressive sans-serif font, Senator John Kerry’s multitudinous font choices center on the use of thin, delicate-looking, “girlie-man” type. No wonder some voters think he’s a vacillating wimp.

Some of my quibbles would be obvious only to typography gurus. But Mr. Kerry makes other, more noticeable mistakes. Rather than distinguish his candidacy, his logo’s Reflex blue background serves only as a weak echo of the president’s bolder navy. Mr. Kerry’s flag is free-floating and leans backward, while Mr. Bush’s flag is anchored to his name and leans forward. Add to this a claustrophobic red border that prevents the eye from moving upward and onward and you’re starting to see the visual poverty of this campaign.

The American flag in the Kerry-Edwards logo is the biggest gaffe of all. Although it has the requisite 50 stars, there are five rows of 10 stars, rather than the correct arrangement of five rows of six stars and four rows of five stars. It looks like a mistake – not a stylized interpretation, like the flag in the Bush logo.

Now, close your eyes and count to three. Look at the Kerry-Edwards logo above. What word do you see first? That’s right: “Edwards.” This is because the name of the vice-presidential nominee is placed beneath the “Kerry” in the same type and size, causing it to occupy more space. (And it’s not just because Edwards is a longer name than Kerry; though Cheney is longer than Bush, their logo doesn’t have that problem.) Talk about message confusion! The inelegant stacked Helvetica Iteration of the Mondale-Ferraro ticket of 20 years ago was almost as bad – and we know how that race ended.

Graphic design is a hobby of mine, and I have been chronically bothered by the Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker (and I have the opportunity to see quite a few of them, living where I do).

It’s always been the flag that bothered me most, though the whole thing is too girlie & pretty by far.

Kerry’s flag leans backward!

Shortly after I read the logo analysis I read another pundit saying that Clinton’s reaction to attacks was a reflexive step backward. True or not, that is exactly what the backwards-leaning flag on the Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker looks like.

It looks like his football flinch.

http://www.footballfansfortruth.us/sports.php?sport=football

To cheer yourself up, read The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America by John Micklethwait, Adrian Wooldridge

The authors, two Brits who write for THE ECONOMIST, say America is an inherently conservative country, and that, moreover, conservatives have won.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:22 am 134. Catherine:

Lakedog66

Kerry look like he was walleyed tonight

I’ve thought this myself. It probably explains why he has so much trouble catching balls.

We’re all in “vision therapy” around here for similar issues (nobody’s wall-eyed, but our eyes are “not working together.” It’s all still pretty mysterious to me, but I believe it.)

Ball sports are the big sign that you have problems with visual processing (which is extremely common, it seems).

People who have visual processing problems will tend to avoid ball sports. They can often bat, because in batting you use one eye; they can often play positions like goalie, because the goalie covers a confined, narrow space.

Or they’ll go into one-person sports like track or, I think, gymnastics.

But if you’ve got visual processing problems, having to get your own (moving) body to wherever a (moving) ball is doesn’t happen.

Take a look at this close-up of Kerry, where his eyes are clearly visible (and he looks uncannily like Nancy Reagan).

http://nytimes.com/pages/magazine/index.html

(Was Nancy Reagan wall-eyed? I’m thinking she is . . . I should check.)

Meanwhile, I’m carrying on with my Marfan syndrome theory.

I watched Alexandra Pelosi’s DIARY OF A POLITICAL TOURIST and at one point Kerry is on the ice, getting ready to play ice hockey. The rink is empty, and he goes to dead center and performs some kind of weird stretching routine that involves a complete flattening of his torso over his legs (something like that).

It looks extremely odd, and I don’t think it’s a normal position for a 60 year old male body to assume. It’s as if he just folds over (remember Alessandra Stanley saying he “folded his hands over his heart like a French mime? That’s my favorite line of the election.)

There’s another especially bizarre moment where he walks off by himself and kind of paces around, sort of like a dog before he lies down.

He has absolutely no idea that five zillion cameras are trained on him, even though all the photographers are clearly standing there.

When he realizes he’s being filmed, he comes back and says, “I was going to lie down on the grass.”

Something’s wrong with the guy.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:35 am 135. Fausta:

Jerry, you’re right re: polls.

On the soak the rich platform, I find it hugely ironic that Kerry’s running on what amounts to an economic class warfare platform. Kerry chooses to ignore the fact that in the USA one out of every 125 people has a financial net worth of over $1million. I can assure you most of those millionaires are holding on to their jobs — as are the really rich in the Forbes 400.

The middle class benefited disproportionately from the Bush tax cuts, and Nobel laureate Edward Prescott believes lower tax rates have historically provided a greater incentive to work.

Historically, overall, over 60 percent of families surveyed in 1975 made it to the top 40 percent in 1991.

There’s a lot more debunking at ’s recent article. In addition, 368 economists have panned Kerry’s economic “plan”.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:38 am 136. Rick Ballard:

flenser,

The polls will return to utility for the last 5-7 days before the election. The polling companies are measured for accuracy on the last poll before the election. If one thinks about it, that’s the only one that ever counts because it’s the only one where the result can be compared to reality.

As to Kerry “momentum”, there ain’t none. He hasn’t broken above 46.5 in two months according to the RCP 3-way. I really don’t think he’ll break 43% on Nov. 2. And BTW, the internals are still running to W by wide margins.

It’s all GOTV now – that and the reaction to the terror strike.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:42 am 137. Catherine:

Jerry

Just because we don’t know many people voting for Kerry doesn’t mean that he could not be ahead.

I know countless thousands of folks voting for John Kerry, and I still say George Bush will win.

I refer you to Fausta’s post above:

the Family Circle crowd. Mrs Bush’s Oatmeal Chocolate Chunk cookies won, with 67% of the vote. The Election Cookie Cookoff has predicted the winner since it was established in 1988.

Same story on Halloween masks. People always buy more masks of the winner, and Bush masks are way outselling Kerry.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:47 am 138. gb_in_ga:

Catherine:

“My sister and I both think the yellow-ribbon “Support Our Troops” bumper stickers are euphemisms for “Bush Cheney.”

Those stickers are everywhere here, and they’ve appeared in just the past couple of weeks.”

I think you’re onto something there. I’d add in one other factor, and that is what I’d call the “Double Bumper Sticker” factor. Of those vehicles that sport both a “Support our Troops” sticker and a presidential campaign sticker, what is the percentage of BC stickers vs KE stickers? Quite frankly, I can’t recall seeing any doubles with KE, but the double BC’s are pretty common here in suburban ‘Lanta. Yes, there are some KE’s around here, but not with the “Support our Troops” as well.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:47 am 139. Catherine:

I love it!

Here’s one of the responses to the logo op-ed:

October 14, 2004

Integrity in a Logo

To the Editor:

Scott Dadich’s welcome analysis of the typography of the two presidential campaign logos jumps to a conclusion that has a black and white simplicity (”What You See Is What You Get,” Op-Ed, Oct. 9). The sans-serif, all-caps typography of George W. Bush may well be “brash” and “aggressive” and thereby an accurate depiction of the Bush administration, but it does not follow that the serif type of John Kerry projects the candidate as a “wimp.”

Serif types are the original typographic forms of the Roman alphabet. Sans-serif types are derivative letter forms that have been stripped of their serifs (as the name implies, if you know a little French!), a simplification that lends itself to short, simple messages.

Sans-serif type is the medium of corporate graphics and sound bites; it is associated with selling and spin. Serif type is the medium of books, editorial and content; it is associated with learning and knowledge.

When looking at the Kerry logo, you do get what you see, but some see intelligence, wisdom and integrity.

Thomas Starr

Boston, Oct. 9, 2004

The writer is an associate professor of graphic design at Northeastern University.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:50 am 140. Buddy Larsen:

Thanks mucho for the comfirmation, Mike D. I’m all typed out after that long post, but someone needs to debunk this ‘corporate welfare’ destructive nonsense. First, those corporations are who nearly everybody works for, and they cannot run without capital, and the capital comes from two places, debt and equity, that which comes from debt yields the money that working folks buy the American dream with, and that which comes from equity creates ther pool of growth capacity that keeps an ever-increasing population moving–albeit not in a straight line–up the economic scale.

It is no easy thing to create a job. there must be a need for a person to buy something, add some sort of value to it, and resell it for enough to feed, cloth, and house him in the doing. It is not an on-off switch; it involves huge leaps of confidence, and application of hands-on know-how. None of which come free, because nothing else in nature comes free, either.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:52 am 141. jerry:

Indvidual polls can be manipulated by biasing a stratified sample of respondents. However, when you look at the aggregate of all the polls, even Fox, the trend is towards Kerry. It is the trend that concerns me not the absolute percentages.

Here is a good working definition of being rich. Someone who is rich can get up in the morning and decide that they have just retired and it will have absolutely no impact on their standard of living. I know at least one person who can do this. His name is Mellon. Everybody else is just a working stiff. If my wife and I decided to hang it up tomorrow morning we have to sell the house, withdraw our son from private school and go live in a trailer park, so despite the fact that my family income rises to the Kerry “rich” criterion my economic security is no greater then my blue collar father’s (truckdriver). It is work or be poor until I reach my retirement age somewhere between 60 and 62.

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:54 am 142. Catherine:

GB in GA

Of those vehicles that sport both a “Support our Troops” sticker and a presidential campaign sticker, what is the percentage of BC stickers vs KE stickers

Wow!

Thanks.

I haven’t seen any “double bumper stickers” one way or the other, and neither has my sister (I assume). We both live in areas where Bush supporters, including both of us, would be reluctant to slap a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker on their car.

I’ve be VERY surprised to find a “Support our troops” sticker on the same bumper as a Kerry-Edwards sticker.

Do we know who’s putting the Troops stickers out?

Because they’re everywhere; they’re obviously brand-new . . . and they get the message across.

I’m wondering if the Republican Party is distributing them.

It would be a smart move.

Closet conservatives code themselves in various ways. For instance, I almost always wear a flag necklace. (It’s beautiful: originally $800, made by a NYC artist not long after 9-11. I got it for $80 at Barney’s Warehouse a few years later, after everyone else’s patriotic outburst had subsided.)

Oct 14, 2004 - 8:55 am 143. Catherine:

I can’t stop myself!

These letter writers are all, every last one of them, explaining exactly why if voters voted on bumper stickers Bush-Cheney would win in a blow-out:

October 13, 2004

Re “What You See Is What You Get,” by Scott Dadich (Op-Ed, Oct. 9): As a curator of prints and drawings, I know a thing or two about meaning in graphic design. The fat, crowded, sans-serif capitals of the Bush-Cheney logo connote lethargy, rigidity and intolerance, and their partisan rightward tilt is stopped in its tracks by a poorly designed flag that looks like a trio of speed bumps.

The typography of the Kerry-Edwards logo draws upon a rich history, from imperial Rome to the classical revival of the Renaissance.

If you question its weight and authority, just look at the lettering on most bank buildings.

It connotes dignity and rectitude, and its refusal to slant right or left suggests inclusiveness and centrism, as do the 50 stars on John Kerry’s handsome flag.

The Bush flag’s 20 stars signify privilege and exclusion, and declare unequivocally that we are a divided nation.

Kevin Salatino

Los Angeles, Oct. 9, 2004

The writer is curator of prints and drawings, Los Angeles County Museum of Art.

To graphic design professionals, the Kerry logo is laughable, particularly its clashing typefaces and amateurish letter spacing. The Bush logo, by contrast, is outstanding. John Kerry’s failure in such a routine matter characterizes his campaign.

The Bush record is a barrel of fish, and John Kerry can’t seem to hit any of them.

Bradley Hitchings

Rye, N.Y., Oct. 9, 2004

The writer is a graphic designer.

As Scott Dadich says, the “rightward lilt” of the Bush campaign logo conveys energy and means to convey change as positive.

But a message of “positive change” doesn’t make the change positive in reality.

The sign’s uniformity indicates tight, central control with no tolerance for individual variations.

The Kerry logo, on the other hand, conveys sufficient consistency to be recognizable while allowing individual groups the freedom to convey some of their own personality. Dare I say it is more democratic? It sure feels that way.

Stephen Kunkel

Upper Black Eddy, Pa., Oct. 9, 2004

As a creative director, I disagree that the serif typeface for Kerry-Edwards conveys weakness. It communicates a measured branding that isn’t cold and disconnected. It doesn’t need to trample ahead in a macho steamrolling italic manner, like the Bush-Cheney design.

I applaud the strong partnership that the Edwards name conveys in the Kerry-Edwards logo. It takes a secure John Kerry to include his running mate in an inclusive way, without diluting his own strength.

Steve Cohen

New York, Oct. 9, 2004

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:00 am 144. flenser:

Rick

I understand what you are saying. At the same time, who would have thought that CBS and ABC would be willing to destroy their facade of objectivity in an effort to bring down Bush? Can we assume that some polling firms will not simlarly be willing to accept a hit to their credibility, and release what they know to be inaccurate polls on the eve of the election to try to depress the Bush turnout and elevate that for Kerry?

From here on in I’m treating all information from the establishment media with even more skeptcism than usual. And that’s saying something, since I already assume the worst about them.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:00 am 145. penwil:

In the last couple of days I’ve actually seen some Bush bumber stickers here in moonbat land (Marin County, just north of San Francisco). Brave souls, these, given how virulent the Bush hatred is in these parts. Oddly, I don’t remember seeing a single Bush bumber sticker back in 2000, when sporting one wouldn’t have been nearly as risky to your car’s paint job.

I’m surprised that the audience for the debates was so high. I wonder what that means . . . Are so many people still undecided?

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:04 am 146. Catherine:

Interesting stuff on the yellow-ribbon bumper stickers:

On Monday, April 21, the Huntington Beach City Council voted 6-1 on a resolution to support the troops by placing yellow ribbons on all of the city’s police cars and other vehicles. YellowRibbonAmerica.com will be working with many of the city council members to carry out this project.

View the Resolution Adobe Acrobat Format

One of the council members, Debbie Cook, voted against the resolution.

View Debbie Cooks Comments 8:05 minutes (Real Video Format)

View all Discussion concerning the resolution 16:31 minutes (Real Video Format)

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:08 am 147. Catherine:

Here’s a “Democratic Victory Store that has lots of Kerry-Edwards stuff along with yellow-ribbon support our troops car magnets.

http://www.victorystore.com/gifts/democrat/democrat.htm

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:12 am 148. Rick Ballard:

At the same time, who would have thought that CBS and ABC would be willing to destroy their facade of objectivity in an effort to bring down Bush?

Picture student sitting at desk, hand waving wildly: “Pick me, pick me, I know someone who thinks exactly that.”

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:15 am 149. gb_in_ga:

Catherine:

Yellow Ribbon Stickers:

Ok, I googled it, and got this right off the bat:

http://www.yellowribbonamerica.com/

They were giving them away, but are now out.

http://www.victorystore.com/americanpride.htm

Selling them — note what else they sell

http://www.thebattlezone.com/decals/mixeddecals.html

Selling them — again, note what else they sell

And there’s lots more out there. From what I can tell by those sites, they are either politically neutral, or are pro-military/conservative oriented sites, even the merchants. I haven’t seen any that leaned left.

What does that tell you about the clientele?

Well, there is this one site:

http://www.cafepress.com/democrats2004/362951

Definitely Dem/Lefty oriented. And their stickers & shirts say that they support the troops, but want them back home, which is not the same thing as what you are referring to. It also means that they conceed that the conventional yellow ribbon “Support the Troops” sticker does not refer to them, theirs is a rebuttal sticker.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:19 am 150. TedN:

Let me say a few words in support of Scrooge McDuck. Yes he does have money-bin issues, but he built his fortune with hard work, and never, never slacked off. He will do anything except cheat or break his word to make a profit, no matter what the personal hardship is, and he is just as happy to sell a few kernels of corn to a milimeter-high space duck for a few atoms of gold as to close a billion dollar deal.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:20 am 151. gb_in_ga:

Catherine:

Interesting that you found the Democrat side of the VictoryStore site, where I found the “American Pride” one, which showed up on the Google search. Compare them. The Dem site has 1 yellow ribbon and 1 red/white/blue one, farther down the page. Lots of KE stuff, and lots of obsolete Dem fire sale stuff. The other site has several of them, with the top 3 entries on the site being 2 yellows and 1 red/white/blue one. Nothing Dem/Left oriented on that page.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:33 am 152. gb_in_ga:

Catherine:

More on the Yellow Ribbon thing:

What I’m thinking on the Double Sticker thing is that it is a contradiction to both display a “Support our Troops” sticker and a KE sticker. Why? Well, just how are you supposed to be supporting the troops when you are also supporting someone who has dedicated his career doing the exact opposite? Sporting both a KE sticker and a “Support the Troops” is a display of complete cluelessness. And I’d say that even the most clueless lefty out there has more sense than that.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:47 am 153. ambisinistral:

Way off topic, but WHAT!?!?

The author of that is mistaking the flourishes in manuscript style type faces with serifs. Serif typefaces came about when movable metal type was created for printing presses. The serifs were actually put on for no other reason that to prevent the ends of the letters from chipping and wearing away, the readability of it was an unintended consequence.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:51 am 154. Charlie (Colorado):

I suspect the Claybot knows perfectly well how to link. However, the article he is citing is actually a press release put out by America Votes (that is, put out by MoveOn and the AFL-CIO) which is why he is being so coy about his source.

Flenser, I shan’t be surprised if it’s true, but now he can’t claim ignorance as an excuse.

I’m more interested in seeing what he says to Buddy anyway.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:52 am 155. ambisinistral:

Serif types are the original typographic forms of the Roman alphabet.

(ooops, forgot the quote)

Serif types are the original typographic forms of the Roman alphabet. Sans-serif types are derivative letter forms that have been stripped of their serifs (as the name implies, if you know a little French!), a simplification that lends itself to short, simple messages.

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:52 am 156. jerry:

gb:

Why should cluelessness of today’s left surprise you? During the heady days of the nuclear freeze movement I saw a Volvo [what else?] that had on passenger side rear bumper a “Save Soviet Jewry” sticker while the driver’s side had “Nuclear Freeze Now!” bumper sticker. Duh, Do you think there was a connection between Soviet anti-Semitism and the requirement to deploy intermediate ranged nuclear weapons in Europe?

Oct 14, 2004 - 9:57 am 157. Piranha:

It looks like the “integrity, integrity, integrity” quote may have been stolen from Jim Rassman, as he campaigned for Kerry in Eau Claire, Wisconsin in late September. See this article from WQOW in Eau Claire, Wisconsin:

After serving with John Kerry, a veteran says Kerry is better suited to serve in the White House. Jim Rassman was in Eau Claire on Tuesday to campaign for Kerry. Rassman says Kerry saved his life when he pulled him out of a river during a battle in Vietnam. Rassman says he voted for Bush in 2000, but says he doesn’t plan to back the President this time around. “There are three character traits John has that George Bush does not have and they are integrity, integrity, integrity. I trust John Kerry implicitly. I don’t trust a thing George Bush tells me,” said Rassman.

The link is at: http://www.wqow.com/news/articles/article_1698.shtml .

Of all the things to fake, it is stunning that Kerry models it into a quote from his dying mother urging him to be honest.

Then again, there probably is a simple, and benevolent, explanation.

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:17 am 158. WichitaBoy:

Here’s the intro to the Matt Bai article in the NYT, underneath the Kerry picture Catherine linked to:

“John Kerry has a thoughtful, forward-looking theory about terrorism and how to fight it. But can it resonate with Americans in the post-9/11 world?”

I am not making this up.

The implications are clear, even to fly-over buffoons like yours truly: Americans are thought-less and backward-looking, unlike our betters writing the NYT. And by Americans is meant, of course, those unfortunates who are not blessed enough to be living in the Northeast or, perhaps, “The Coast”, whose residents are metro-nationals rather than mere Americans.

It reminds me of the snarky stuff I wrote in my junior high newspaper.

Buddy Larsen,

With a record like yours, you’re lucky they didn’t drag you in chains through the streets of Austin, you uncaring criminal capitalist parasite on society!

Seriously, are you certain that it’s a good idea for your children to get a free ride at UT without having to sully their hands with work?

George,

If I were you, I would be giving some serious consideration to why one of the world’s richest thieves, George Soros, is spending good money to elect one of the world’s richest gold-diggers to the Presidency. Hint: it’s probably not pure altruism. I hadn’t heard that Kerry favored a wealth tax, by the way. That he wants to increase the income tax, thereby helping to keep down those middle-class people who don’t have any yet, I’m sure of, but I hadn’t heard where he wanted to raise taxes on those who already have it made.

As for your main issue, the terrorists, I have a very difficult time seeing how anyone could be undecided. George Bush responded quickly and forcefully to the problem. That operation hasn’t gone perfectly–so far as I am able to ascertain, no military operation in history has–but it has been thorough, aggressive, and effective. Among all military operations I have ever read about, it has been one of the best. We know exactly where Bush stands on this and we know exactly what to expect from him. By contrast, Kerry has made a political career for himself first by destroying the morale of American troops, followed by a career in the Senate of vitiating our intelligence and military capabilities. Now, that doesn’t necessarily prove anything. As Wittgenstein said, if you see a man out on a sidewalk painting the number “1″ over and over a thousand times, can you determine which number he will paint next? Of course not. Kerry could have a complete change of personality, in theory. In practice though we live in a probabilistic world and the probability is heavy that he will not. The probability is heavy that he will cut and run. The probability is heavy that he believes America is the real problem and needs to have its military abilities defanged and its aggression curbed. To imagine that Kerry will somehow (and we’d still all love to see the plan) magically transform the world stage by his mere nuanced presence into a safer world with a stronger America is, let us say, a very hopeful conclusion. Now I know you would rather that Kerry and the Democrats win, for your own reasons. So would I, so would Zell Miller and Ed Koch. But you have to be honest here because our lives depend on it. And if you’re really honest there’s just nothing whatsoever about Kerry inspiring any confidence in his ability to deal with the terrorists except wishful thinking. So to me the choice is clear: on the one hand a man who’s dealing with the problem on a global scale surprisingly well, a man who has the full support of the military who actually have to do the job, and on the other a man who provides nothing concrete whatsoever except an opportunity for us to project our own beliefs onto him, a man despised by those same military personnel who must put their lives on the line.

And jerry, that is exactly why I think your pessimism is completely overwrought. I scarcely know an admitted Bush voter, but I believe that when the American voter steps into that secret booth and thinks honestly about these real life-and-death matters, his or her hand is going to pull down that “Bush” lever more often than not.

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:24 am 159. Jamie Irons:

Buddy Larsen

I was both moved by, and deeply interested in, the stories of your family and of your own business.

Catherine

Thanks for cheering me up (that’s become practically a second job for Rick Ballard!)and it’s great to “see” you here again!

Jamie Irons

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:26 am 160. Sandy P:

SAMUEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What does your crystal ball say?

Think the goon tactics will sink in to the relative clueless????

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:46 am 161. Sandy P:

George Soros is the money and driver behind CFR.

Front Page Mag has the story.

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:48 am 162. gb_in_ga:

Jerry:

You have a point there. They ARE that clueless. My supposition is that those of them that actually do have a clue (I know, that narrows down that field a WHOLE lot!) would see the fallacy and refrain from doing that. Even then, you just don’t see it that much, at least not around here. And those few time I have seen it, I just about had to pull off of the road — I was laughing so hard I couldn’t drive straight! “What A Clueless Moron!”

As for my truck? Well, I made it a policy many years back to never put any political bumper stickers on my vehicle, ever. It just invites trouble. And the neighborhood covenant “Nazis” (as I refer to them) forbid any sort of political signs in the yard. So I am a quite anonymous Bush supporter. I did have a BC ‘00 sign in my front yard last time, when I was back in La, however.

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:51 am 163. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

I don’t know if anyone answered your question yet, but I got my “yellow ribbon” magnetic sticker from some kids shilling for Angels in Camouflage during a large event on a campus. They had a huge number of them when I saw them early in the day and looked like they’d sold almost all by the time I saw them again mid-afternoon.

The stickers are not hard to come by and can be had, at about every 7-11 in my area. I have no idea if 7-11 is selling them or its just a local phenomenon or whether or not any of the proceeds go to help those serving. I’d prefer to get mine from fresh-faced and persuasive young women with a mission

Oct 14, 2004 - 10:59 am 164. Fausta:

Piranha,

Then again, there probably is a simple, and benevolent, explanation

And of course, it is seared, seared in Kerry’s mind, right next to that 16 point deer (which would make the deer as big as a Clydesdale, The King of Deer).

Oct 14, 2004 - 11:19 am 165. Buddy Larsen:

Thanks, jamie…and you guys SHOULD cheer up. My little brother lives in a community of 30,000 English-speakers from all over the world, a couple hours from Guadalajara http://www.ajijic.com/ on a high mountain lake. real-estate and cost-of-living is a third of even lo-cost Texas. If the Commies take over next month, shit, light a shuck and fly the coop. I got that way under Carter, too, working outn of Caracas, the Carter stars and stripes seemed to be smirking at me. I know, fair-weather patriot. But…Kerry? Kerry? KERRY?

No, Wichita, not sure at all. But, they’ve done their share of hard-scrabble Joad-work, trapped inside my Jeffersonian fantasy all those years. Besides, when my Fred Sanford spells start coming on, any day, now, maybe the little bastids’ll be Lamont for me.

Oct 14, 2004 - 11:40 am 166. Piranha:

There is a link at the Captain’s Quarters blog to a Newsweek article from August 2004 (before Rassman’s comments in Eau Claire) in which David Thorner, Kerry’s ex-brother-in-law (and, apparently, still friend) said that Kerry’s mom said the same thing to Kerry (he only repeated the word twice but I don’t see that as a big difference). I’m satisfied that this has been a Kerry story since before Rassman said it in Eau Claire.

Hey, I can admit a mistake — and it’s not even on my own weblog!

Oct 14, 2004 - 12:05 pm 167. Fresh Air:

George–

I realize you have probably fled the premises, but if you are still around, please tell me what is “unfair” about a consumption tax?

“A consumption tax?” you say. “What does that have to do with anything?”

If you eliminate taxes on dividends, capital gains and interest, that is what you have left. Think about it. Savings rates would go through the roof and Rubinomics would be in full flower. How could a Democrat not like that?

Although you could be one of those voodoo economics guys…

Oct 14, 2004 - 1:40 pm 168. Buddy Larsen:

Fresh Air, religions formed in part to keep folks from eating next year’s seed corn and breed stock. Whoever did,in the long hungry winter, would then come after those who didn’t. Tribes probably vanished, ’til they got religious about it. Consumption tax kills next year’s seed corn and livestock, for the people who write the laws. Once in a generation some ‘touched’ leader proposes it, against the guild rules. may have one here if only we can (sob) get past nov 2. Still the ‘regressive’ problem, tho, like most prominently the pump prices for gasoline. Gotta help that bottom 10 or 20% somehow (really).

Oct 14, 2004 - 2:22 pm 169. Roberts:

Clayton wrote about President Bush: “… condoning increased levels of arsenic, mercury, and other pollutants …”

I’m still waiting for Clayton’s explanation on why he thinks its OK to write these and other lies.

Oct 14, 2004 - 2:29 pm 170. bill lau:

iraqis get free camcorders to say anything they want. they say they wish saddam was back in power. what more proof do you need?

http://www.voicesofiraq.com

see for yourself

Oct 15, 2004 - 4:25 pm 171. Buddy Larsen:

Means nothing Bill, there’s no backstory. Whoever wanted to make this piece, made it the way they wanted it to be. Bone-chillingly obvious. Think “motivations”.

Oct 16, 2004 - 6:18 am

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