48 Comments

1. John Clayton:

Re: Iraq and what is “really” happening there. Some people have no difficulty in discerning the difference between truth and Republican wishful fantasy. Every single black person I have spoken to- without fail- is voting for Kerry. And they don’t talk about voting for Kerry so much as they are eagerly looking forward to casting their ballots against Bush. I see real passion there. Now I’m sure that there are some Clarence Thomases and Allan Keyes’ types out there who will vote for Bush (maybe even Colin Powell, although I wouldn’t bet on it). But as for regular black people (at every economic level)? Not a single one. Bush won’t get more than 7% in this election, if that much.

So what is it about this election that an entire group of people has no trouble seeing through Bush while others- college graduates among them- have worked so hard to delude themselves that his administration’s obvious failures are somehow translated into victory and some of the more spectacular Bush mishaps have just fallen off the radar screen?

I would love to see a psychological profile of typical college educated Bush voters who, before the 2004 election cycle, formerly thought that the following were negative factors in evaluating a candidate:

failure to capture an international criminal (Osama)who killed over 3,000 Americans in a sneak attack;

taking a surplus bequeathed to him by his predecessor and running up historical deficits ($400 billion at last count);

net loss of jobs (over a million in the private sector);

vastly increasing the size and expense of government (the Dept. of Homeland Security is only the beginning);

making the world less safe (terrorist attacks up);

attempting to build up a foreign country with tens of billions in FOREIGN AID (the old right wing bugaboo);

dissipating the morale and efficiency of the military (see the General Sanchez quote from his December 2003 memo at CNN http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/18/prez.iraq/index.html

What is the gymnastic trick intelligent Bush voters (an oxymoron? close, but not quite) are performing in their brains that allows them to do 180 degree turns in their previously most cherished beliefs? Inchoate fear of undefined terrorist attack? I know one older white female who used to be a pot smoking hippy type who was ready to leave for Canada when Reagan was elected- and she’s so freaked by fear of an attack that she’s got Bush-Cheney signs! Of course, maybe it’s all the brain cells she killed in the old days catching up with her, much like Bush, who, amazingly enough, was semi-articulate in old video clips from the Frontline PBS special and the 9-11 movie before all the brain cells killed by alcohol et al. nailed his communication capabilities.

Perfect synchronization: the Sox win in the 134th inning and the Daily Show comes on!

Oct 18, 2004 - 8:22 pm 2. asher:

Roger, great post! I’m hesitant to interrupt the previous commenter’s soliloquy, but thanks for putting the spotlight on Chrenkoff. I haven’t been paying enough attention to him. (Chrenkoff, that is.) His post on speechwriting sounds like good advice for bloggers … from one who knows what he is talking about.

As always, keep up the good work.

Oct 18, 2004 - 8:47 pm 3. chuck:

Oh John,

You are such a stud. Truely, your 30 lb brain is one of the wonders of the world.

Oct 18, 2004 - 8:48 pm 4. Frederick:

The first post is worse than a soliloquy. It duplicates one by the same poster on the “Another Infidel” thread. Once is a bore. Twice is spam.

Oct 18, 2004 - 8:57 pm 5. chuck:

Frederick,

Thanks for pointing out the duplication. Guess Clayton can’t get enough of himself.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:08 pm 6. John Clayton:

The “good news” from Iraq just keeps rolling in:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=10&u=/ap/20041019/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_unit_investigation

Here’s an idea: since the Main Stream Media isn’t covering enough of the “good news from Iraq,” Roger can lead a flock of his ideological soulmates on a tourist expedition to Iraq. Once there, they can travel freely about the countryside, visiting all of the towns and cities which are not beset by violence, guerilla attacks, and open tribal or religious warfare, and then report back via the Internet.

Since the concept of a country so dangerous that Americans have to have a fortified “Green Zone” in the middle of its capital is obviously a figment of the left leaning MSM’s imagination, they can also visit the market places and cultural sites in Baghdad. I suggest they all prominently display small American flags on their hats and BUSH CHENEY buttons on their safari vests to show their patriotism as they move freely about the cities and the countryside.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:11 pm 7. chuck:

Ohh, I take that back. John has a forty pound brain. Thirty pound brains are strictly for the learning impaired.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:15 pm 8. John Clayton:

Asher, Frederick & Chuck: Great ripostes! You know what they say: “Some people have a way with words, and other people….. not have way!”

(Extra points if you can cite the source of the quote.)

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:22 pm 9. Morgan:

Clayton -

Nice, long, thought-free post. Again. I especially liked this part:

“…Now I’m sure that there are some Clarence Thomases and Allan Keyes’ types out there who will vote for Bush (maybe even Colin Powell, although I wouldn’t bet on it). But as for regular black people (at every economic level)? Not a single one…”

“Clarence Thomases and Allan Keyes’ *types*”? Sounds like you mean to say “Uncle Toms and Oreos”.

Bigot.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:24 pm 10. richard mcenroe:

John Clayton ó Too late. Mark Steyn already did that, as you would know if you read anything but your Daily Kos updates.

Let’s see, I can read your list of faithfully downloaded talking points, or I can read the people on the ground:

“Three years and two days ago, American troops came to Afghanistan to free a people who had been subjugated by a cruel and vicious oppressor. Today, I witnessed what their sacrifices and efforts, and those of other coalition troops, the international community and my colleagues at the US Embassy had helped to win.

“Freedom.

“I visited three polling places in Kabul today and saw Afghan men and women lining up to exercise, for the first time in this nation’s tortured history, the freedom to select their leader.

“I watched as men and women, who been warned by the violent remnants of a defeated oppressor that exercising their freedom to vote would result in death, defiantly come to polling places to cast their votes.

“I saw women, who had been not allowed out of their own homes under the old regime, walk freely into the voting booths and cast their ballot for their choice for President.

I saw today what freedom looks like.”

Revisionist that, schmuck. We’re already being told that Howard’s landslide in Australia had nothing to do with the Australian people’s rejection of the Labor “Home by Christmas” promise, now tell us the elections didn’t happen, that they’re a failure.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:25 pm 11. PW:

Well, so much for my vow to ignore everything Clayton posts…it’s a wee bit more difficult to do when he grabs the first post (which I suspect was quite intentional). At least it has given me the chance to see that he has descended into full-fledged trolldom now – being mindlessly contrary just for the sake of drawing attention to himself. Somehow I’m reminded of a few of the five-year olds my mother works with in daycare.

On topic though – thanks for highlighting Arthur Chrenkoff’s valuable posts, Roger. I don’t make it over there nearly as often as I should and as he deserves, so I’m glad to be reminded every now and then.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:26 pm 12. David [.net]:

a wee bit more difficult to do when he grabs the first post

Just takes a mouse with a troll, I mean, scroll wheel.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:29 pm 13. flenser:

Stupid, ill-mannered, and bigoted. And the face of todays Democratic party. I think it’s time to say goodbye to the enunch.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:38 pm 14. Kevin P:

Roger;

I just spent 21 days in a hospital helping my 87 year old father recover from major surgery. One of my fathers therapists was a refugee from communist Rumania and her eyes raised in alarm when she saw that I was reading the new book on Stalin by Montefiore. I assured her that it was not flattering and I was not one of the cocktail party communists that still infect our country. She went on to tell me how it still makes her wretch when so called left wing intelectuals still try to minimize the horrors of communism or when they ridiculed Reagan for calling it the evil empire.There is a chinese restaurant in our city that has it’s employees dress in Chairman Mao garb and even though it has a good reputation she will never step foot in it. She told me that she saw a poorly made and acted TV movie called Amerika that portrayed the communist takeover of America. She said that even though it was a terrible movie she still had nightmares for weeks just at the thought of such a circumstance happening in this country. Anyone who lived under that filthy system has little patience for those usefull idiots who deny the awfull truth that they lived through.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:45 pm 15. holdfast:

Please, ignore the damned troll! He’s just looking for what my mom used to call “negative attention.”

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:47 pm 16. Yehudit:

“So what is it about this election that an entire group of people has no trouble seeing through Bush while others- college graduates among them- have worked so hard to delude themselves….”

Some other entire groups of people voting for Bush:

Vietnamese-Americans.

http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Asian/politics_law/pns_vietnamese_back_bush_1004.asp

Russian Jewish immigrants.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=9999&print=yes

Police.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=38194

Armed forces.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/7737

When I staffed the Bush campaign table in midtown Manhattan, the ethnic diversity of the people who came by to root for us was striking, including a high percentage of African-Americans. This is as anecdotal as your story. We do know that Kerry is campaigning hard in black churches, so obviously he feels he needs to.

Oct 18, 2004 - 9:50 pm 17. chuck:

He’s just looking for what my mom used to call “negative attention.”

Well, he came to the right place. Slow night anyway.

OT, I am amazed at how international blogs are. I read Tim Blair, who seems to know more about american politics as I do, and in doing so I also get an introduction to australian politics. Latham, Howard, I would have known nothing about those two without blogs. Chrenkoff, wretchard, and Alan Brain are other australian blogs I read. It’s a wonderful world.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:02 pm 18. Frederick:

Yes. The Australian blogs are impressive. But we may still lead in humor. A bumper sticker described on a Ford employees site:

Vote Kerry – Endorsed by Al-Qaeda, Al-Jazeera, and Al-Gore.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:11 pm 19. Rick Ballard:

Yehudit,

I don’t know if that’s going to be enough. With Arafat and Malathir Mohammad coming out so strongly for Kerry (now we know who Kerry was talking about when he mentioned “strong support” from foreign leaders) things may change quickly. You have to wonder if our keeping Hussein incommunicado isn’t a ploy to knock down Sunni support for Kerry here. There are still tens of thousands of Iraqi Americans who might be swayed to the Kerry camp by an appeal from Saddam, if we’d only let him speak.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:12 pm 20. Yehudit:

Rick, LOL.

Here’s some hard numbers on African-American voters indicating approx 20% for Bush as of 3 weeks ago, in 5 different states, including Florida.

We’ll see if campaigning with Sharpton and Jackson will help or hurt Kerry.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:20 pm 21. John Clayton:

Great post about the freedom we have brought to Afghanistan. Someone please explain why, prior to 9/11/01, the Bush Administration thought it necessary to give the Taliban bags of money to suppress poppy flowers while ignoring their soccer stadium decapitations, murders, enslavement of women, and nihilistic destruction of cultural icons? Oh yeah, it was because of the possibility of the oil pipeline from Uzbekistan, or Kazakistan, or another of those “free” countries in central Asia that we have conveniently ignored even since the world view changing of 9/11.

So what does it make me that I wanted Clinton to intervene in Afghanistan after 8/98 and take a wrecking ball to the Taliban and their horrors and get rid of the Al Qaida training camps? That I was pissed that he lobbed a few cruise missiles after our embassies were bombed that missed Osama and accomplished nothing? That I despaired of Bush ever doing anything for the women or oppressed in that country before the happenstance of 9/11 put the Taliban on his radar screen? What, was I an early conservative? No- I would have been condemned as an idealistic liberal for wanting to nation build or intervene in another sovereign nation’s internal affairs (especially one we needed to build a pipeline through).

Meanwhile, while you are all celebrating the newfound freedom of Afghanis, the Sudan is the newest African genocide- so where’s George? I guess unilaterism isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be when we so weaken international bodies and coalitions that if we don’t intervene with our military, nothing gets done. Sure it’s not our fault that this stuff happens in the first instance- but after WWII, we should have learned that genocide anywhere is a threat to all humanity. It’s why international law allows intervention when it occurs.

So to sum up: invasion of Afghanistan: necessary and essential in 2001. Applauded by liberals, conservatives, 90% plus approval rating for Bush includes Democrats and Republicans.

Invasion of Iraq in 2003: unnecessary, foolish, incompetently managed from the very top, based on huge intelligence fiasco by Scooter Libby, Cheney & Tenet. Not to forget the lies and deception from our paid agent (Chalabi, etc.) who turned out to be an Iranian spy just months after he’s in the gallery in the President’s guest section at the State of the Union speech. Bottomless pit for our army and our fiscal integrity. Opposed by those with critical thinking faculties unimpaired and intact, because it was a horrible, costly distraction from the war on terror, making the situation worse, costing the lives of Americans and Iraqis, tying up our military, cause of the back door draft on reservists, guardspeople, and those whose contracts of enlistment were up.

See? If you put your thinking caps on, you can tell the difference between the invasion of Afghanistan (still not a success until the country proves to be stable- how many of you think that if Bush is re-elected he will stay the course there?) and the invasion of Iraq.

By the way: the Uncle Tom & Oreo remark that called me a racial bigot? Nice try, but you missed by a mile for reasons you will never know. Anyhow, Keyes and Thomas’ types are intellectuals (I have terrific admiration for Keyes’ intellect and eloquence- he far outshined Bush & McCain in S.C. debate hosted by Larry King) who got theirs by espousing a philosophy that puts down the ones left behind and satisfies the needs of those who reward them. Anyone honestly think Clarence Thomas, who had a few months as a federal judge, and prior to that a sinecure as head of EEOC courtesy of his Missouri mentor, Mr. Danforth, and absolutely no courtroom experience, was the best choice for the highest court in the land, as G.H.W. Bush proclaimed? Anyone honestly think if Thomas were white he’d have been within a million miles of sniffing a Supreme Court seat? Or if Keyes were white he’d have been sent from Md. to Illinois to run for the Senate?

But don’t take my word for it. Ask your black friends if they hold Clarence Thomas in high esteem.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:22 pm 22. John Clayton:

YEHUDIT: thanks for the heads up and the link. I didn’t realize that Jewish support for Kerry was so strong: “… the American Jewish community has grown increasingly skeptical of the presidentís handling of the war in Iraq ó 66 percent now disapprove, up from 54 percent a year ago… American Jews favored Kerry, 69-24 percent.”

I guess I’ll have to add my Jewish friends to my black friends as groups not doing their impression of pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:31 pm 23. chuck:

Meanwhile, while you are all celebrating the newfound freedom of Afghanis, the Sudan is the newest African genocide

Invasion of Iraq in 2003: unnecessary, foolish

Looks like you answered your own question. To bad you have no interest in humanitarian interventions.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:34 pm 24. Morgan:

Clayton -

“…Keyes and Thomas’ types…got theirs by espousing a philosophy that puts down the ones left behind and satisfies the needs of those who reward them.”

“By the way: the Uncle Tom & Oreo remark that called me a racial bigot? Nice try, but you missed by a mile for reasons you will never know.”

Bigot.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:39 pm 25. Terrye:

John:

Before 9/11 the US was responsible for 83% of the food aid that went to Afhghanistan. What are you bitching about anyway? If you had your way the Taliban would still be using soccer stadiums to shoot uppity women.

I bet you were a big fan of Moore’s propaganda bull shit film weren’t you? Living proof that PT Barnum knew what he was talking about when he said there was a sucker born every minute.

Did you know that it was the Clinton people that went to the Taliban and brought up the idea of the pipline? Yessiree. They thought it would piss off the Iranians to have some competition but the deal was dead before Bush came to office. Pity really, the Afhgans could use the revenue.

go away.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:39 pm 26. Rick Ballard:

Tommy Franks slaps Kerry silly in the NYT on his Tora Bora crap. Maybe Kerry should stick to the foreign policy issues that he knows about. It’s great that Sinclair is going to highlight his first foreign policy success with Madame Binh. I’m sure that he could achieve much greater clarity today if he could just figure out to whom he should be surrendering.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:52 pm 27. Terrye:

You know guys the really pitiful thing about a guy like John Clayton is that he will take a thread like this and hi jack it.

He does not care about the suffering of others unless it is useful to him.

Screw the East Europeans he says, yearning for the happier days of Soviet domination. Ah yes, those were the good old days.

Screw Karzai he says thinking fondly of the Taliban and their sainted sovereignty. He then does that thing lefties do so well: Bush bad for dealing with Taliban Bush bad for not dealing with terrorists. whatever John.

John loves misery. It is what drives him. It is his meaning for living. Racism, poverty, war, misery, these are things that light up his life.

BTW did he tell you that he does not know one single black person voting for Bush? Not one. When the Democrats say jump all the good black people, the real black people say how high.

John, you are the worse kind of bigot.

I posted a long response to John in the infidel thread and that will be the end of posting to John. Life is too short.

Oct 18, 2004 - 10:53 pm 28. richard mcenroe:

Morgan ó I’ll take a wild guess, but shtum,,,

Terrye ó One of I my “I gotta get a new crowd” moments came in the 90’s when a woman I know condemned our involvement in the Balkans, saying that if we wanted to play with our soldiers, we should send them to Africa to put a stop to female circumcision…

You know, bring on world peace by sending the 82nd Airborne to look up women’s skirts.

There comes a point where it just ain’t worth listening to some folks…

Oct 18, 2004 - 11:01 pm 29. richard mcenroe:

Take Back The Thread

Oct 18, 2004 - 11:05 pm 30. lindenen:

From Belmont Club re: Afghanistan,

“Somehow I think someone missed the point. There is probably some perfectly plausible reason why a Swedish UN functionary, a French major and a German Colonel — one civilian, two officers, three nationalities, none of who would be in the same chain of command — should show up at precisely the moment a Canadian officer discovers a large number of surface to surface missiles lying around unguarded, but it escapes me.”

Oct 18, 2004 - 11:25 pm 31. Brian:

You know guys the really pitiful thing about a guy like John Clayton is that he will take a thread like this and hi jack it.

I’ve noticed that when all the posts are directed at Clayton, few of the posts are interesting. No offense intended to any responders, but it seems he is the cause of dullness in others, as the man said.

Oct 18, 2004 - 11:55 pm 32. David Thomson:

ìYou know guys the really pitiful thing about a guy like John Clayton is that he will take a thread like this and hi jack it.î

ìJohn Claytonî may very well be a paid employee of a George Soros group. Did I say paid? Yup, I most certainly do consider this to be possibly the case. The radical left realizes that a blog like this is read by people who are at least modestly influential. A little here and a little there, and all of a sudden we are talking about a certain degree of influence. Many of those visiting this site are even downright famous. Heck, our host is even a well known fiction writer and motion picture screen writer.

“I’ve noticed that when all the posts are directed at Clayton, few of the posts are interesting. No offense intended to any responders, but it seems he is the cause of dullness in others, as the man said.”

I agree completely. Leave “Clayton” alone. This person is not worthy of our time and interest.

Oct 19, 2004 - 1:39 am 33. Terrye:

David:

Well if that is the case Soros should fire him. I have seen no indication that he has won our hearts and minds.

In truth who exactly is this Soros guy? Where did his billions come frmm and what has he got against Bush? So far as I know he came out of nowhere. I don’t remember him getting excited about Dole or any other Republican and it was not until after the WTC attack that I remember him getting excited about this one. hummmmmmm

Oct 19, 2004 - 4:35 am 34. Terrye:

richard:

I had many such moments but I have to agree that sending in the Marines to stop African tribesmen from cutting out a woman’s clitoris with a piece of broken glass is out of bounds. Besides we have to look at the whole mulitcultural aspects of this thing.

It’s ok ladies you can uncross your legs now.

I guess one of my moments was trying to reconcile the whole concept of bad Americans killing Iraqi civilians with all the mass graves. They just keep finding them.

For years in Iraq people with backhoes will have to be afraid of what they will find when digging in the sand. Whether they are oil workers or farmers or construction workers they can stumble on anything from dead bodies to military hardware.

And guys like Clayton seem to think Saddam’s Iraq was better.

I just got a chill.

Oct 19, 2004 - 4:43 am 35. richard mcenroe:

Terrye ó Soros is a currency “speculator” with a hedge fund in Carribean banks. Actually, what he is, is a currency raider, manipulating the values of currencies to profit on exchange rates.

In the 70’s, he lowered the value of the British pound some 20%, literally take one pound in five out of the pockets and savings of every man, woman and child in the UK. He did worse to many SE Asian economies such as that of Malaysia.

Oct 19, 2004 - 5:54 am 36. Cap'n Billy:

The posts by the poltroon who began this thread should remind us all that, for the health and safety of this (former) republic, all patriotic Americans should vote a straight Republican party ticket this election. Such people as this truly reprehensible character, who comprise a significant portion of the Democratic party, should be kept as far as possible from the levers of power.

Oct 19, 2004 - 5:55 am 37. BigFire:

Re: Richard McEnroe

In other word, when looking for real life James Bond villian, George Soros fits the role perfectly. Mr. Soros destablize country for profit.

Oct 19, 2004 - 6:06 am 38. David Thomson:

ìIn truth who exactly is this Soros guy?î

There is no delicate way of describing George Soros. He is either a guilt tripped Jew or a self hating one. Soros despises Israel—like many other of John Kerryís supporters. The irony is that few people will even address the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, anti-Semitism pervading the Kerry campaign.

Oct 19, 2004 - 6:11 am 39. Charlie (Colorado):

Every single black person I have spoken to- without fail- is voting for Kerry.

John, did you ever hear of Pauline Kael?

Oct 19, 2004 - 6:31 am 40. Charlie (Colorado):

Someone please explain why, prior to 9/11/01, the Bush Administration thought it necessary to give the Taliban bags of money to suppress poppy flowers while ignoring their soccer stadium decapitations, murders, enslavement of women, and nihilistic destruction of cultural icons?

Got a citation for that, John? I keep hearing these stories about “supporting the Taliban” and they always seem to come down to “gave $1.39 and two books of stamps to the UN”.

Oct 19, 2004 - 6:35 am 41. richard mcenroe:

BigFire ó Yes, except he hasn’t been tossed in his own shark tank yet. Maybe January.

Oct 19, 2004 - 6:48 am 42. richard mcenroe:

Ever”y single black person I have spoken to- without fail- is voting for Kerry.”

John needs to get out of the faculty lounge.

Oct 19, 2004 - 6:49 am 43. Jamie Irons:

Please do not respond to trolls.

troll v.,n.

1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase “trolling for newbies” which in turn comes from mainstream “trolling”, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. … 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand – they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he’s just a troll.” ….

Abridged from The New Hacker’s Dictionary.

Jamie Irons

Oct 19, 2004 - 7:08 am 44. Jamie Irons:

BTW, I know we all know what a “troll” is…

The comment was aimed at the offender himself, who seems devoid not only of self-awareness, but of sentience in general…

Jamie Irons

Oct 19, 2004 - 7:13 am 45. Sandy P:

–In other word, when looking for real life James Bond villian, George Soros fits the role perfectly. Mr. Soros destablize country for profit.–

He’s also the original money behind CFR. Front Page Mag documents links.

Oct 19, 2004 - 7:27 am 46. lindenen:

Sandy P, do you have a link for that? Are you referring to the Council on Foreign Relations?

Oct 19, 2004 - 4:26 pm 47. lindenen:

David Thomson,

“The irony is that few people will even address the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, anti-Semitism pervading the Kerry campaign.”

Tell me more! What exactly?

Oct 19, 2004 - 4:32 pm 48. Old Grouch:

lindenen,

Campaign Finance Reform

Council of Foreign Relations might be fun but IMO the evidence currently available puts such suppositions in the tinfoil hat catagory.

Here are links to the Front Page Magazine articles:

“The Shadow Party” by David Horowitz and Richard Poe

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

(Hattip Howard Veit)

Oct 19, 2004 - 5:12 pm

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: