35 Comments

1. George Purcell:

I must give a mea culpa!

Halperine put that at the top of a list of 25 things things reporters will be looking for…and at the bottom of the list he wrote this:

“Don’t let yourself think for a minute, for better or worse, that nothing ó not the candidates, the TV ads, the ground game, even voters, really ó nothing matters more in determining the outcome of the presidential election than the major American media. You’re just along for the ride, boys and girls. ”

Sorry, sorry, sorry Roger!

Mucho egg on my face!

Oct 29, 2004 - 8:53 am 2. Roger:

Thanks, George. No problem. I obviously noticed it too… See above.

Oct 29, 2004 - 8:56 am 3. notthisgirl:

A little OT – but maybe not – because this involves the Al Poopoo explosive stuff.

Apparently according to Drudge, there will be a soldier holding a news conference today who claims that his unit removed the explosives.

Stay tuned!

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:07 am 4. Catherine:

On another thread we were all speculating as to whether the sudden appearance of “Support Our Troops” yellow ribbon stickers on the backs of cars here are surrogate Bush-Cheney stickers.

I wish I’d kept track, but I can tell you I started noticing these stickers somewhere around a month ago; a month to 2 months, maybe, right around the time you’d be slapping a Bush-Cheney sign on your bumper if you were so inclined. They’re everywhere: there are lots more of them than there are Kerry-Edwards. (That doesn’t means NY state is going red, obviously. What it does mean, I think, is that there are Bush supporters here who feel strongly about their guy.)

Another commenter said that in Atlanta, where you do see Bush-Cheney bumper stickers, whenever someone has both a Support Our Troops sticker and an election sticker, the election sticker is Bush-Cheney. Never Kerry Edwards.

So my son and I had been mulling this over, and then a couple of days ago, for the first time, he saw a car with two stickers:

Support Our Troops

and

Bush-Cheney

Proof!

I don’t know about a hidden Bush vote; I may have to finally subscribe to NR to read the Steyn article.

But I’d put money on it that the SOT stickers are a hidden-in-plain-sight Bush vote.

BTW, the Middle Eastern studies professor last night said something I’ve been thinking myself: the yellow Lance Armstrong cancer bracelet you suddenly see everyone & their brother wearing (including John Kerry) “has become a symbol of the Democratic Party.”

My thought exactly!

I said, “OK, how smart is it for the Democratic Party to identify itself with penis cancer??”

No one seemed to think it was smart.

(I’m sorry to be crude. And yes, I support cancer research, I oppose testicular cancer, etc., etc. The question I’m raising is the public, symbolic identification of the Democratic Party with testicular cancer. Why?)

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:12 am 5. rastajenk:

Must have some kind of panache that eludes me.

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:17 am 6. Akira:

As much as I hate to say it, I believe the “hidden” Kerry vote will trump the hidden Bush vote. I honestly think the likes of Moore, P-Diddy, etc. will get enough first-time voters to the polls. I’m not sure many of these existing polls are accurately capturing this. However, polls have shown that first time voters are leaning heavily towards Kerry. But then again, polls can be useless. In summary, I’m clueless what will happen, but have been pessimistic as of late.

Also, there a chance that we’ll see the irony of ironies…Bush wins the popular vote but loses the electoral vote.

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:18 am 7. PJ:

Last night ABC Primetime devoted its entire show to the Dems: half a reverntial hour of the Clintons talking about his operation (at least he didn’t show us his scar!) and the rest to Eminem’s new anti-Bush video. *Sigh.*

For another voice, this movie, Voices of Iraq, is opening tonight in Westwood and other cities:

http://www.voicesofiraq.com/see_film.cfm?id=2

It’s filmed by Iraqis, about Iraqis. Sounds good!

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:18 am 8. Bruce W.:

Catherine:

Thank you for putting in words what has been in my mind for the last few weeks of commuting btwn NYC and New Jersey. In many instances, you will see both the yellow and the Stars & Stripes version of the support our troops magnets (some are stickers, some magnets).

Here’s more proof for you:

I recently made my own bumper sticker that says:

(in large letters on top) “It’s OK to vote for Bush”

(smaller beneath): “And NOT tell your friends”

Of the 8 or so people from whom I’ve gotten positive responses (while passing me on the Henry Hudson with a smirk or a thumbs up), 5 have been ribbon bearers.

I will certainly keep my eyes open for more of them. I’m praying for NY to go red….a dream I know, but how sweet that would be! I can see Krugman hyperventilating and deconstructing before my very eyes.

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:27 am 9. Dulce:

Catherine: I guess the Dems would rather be thought of as d*cks than as p*ssies or as*holes.

/Ouch, sorry.

I live in a suburb of Philadelphia, where it isn’t uncommon to see both Bush and Kerry signs on the same lawn. There must be a lot of couples not speaking to each other at the moment (or, in Ahhhnie’s words, not getting a lot of sex, lol).

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:31 am 10. Rick Ballard:

I oppose testicular cancer

Oh, me too. Fervently.

Could we talk about something else?

Anyway, I’ve always associated the Democrat party with athletes foot. Or psoriasis.

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:39 am 11. penwil:

You know the old chestnut about the only poll that counts being the one on election day. Well, election day has started early in some states, and NRO’s the Corner posted a couple of items this morning that the early voting in FL, CO and NV is really breaking Bush’s way.

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/corner.asp

Also, there’ve been record breaking turnouts thus far in the early voting in Georgia and SC. Obviously these are solid red states, but the point is that these are Bush voters who are fired up to cast their votes in states that won’t even be close.

I, too, think there’s a hidden vote out there that will be going to Bush, although I guess if we could know that for certain, then it wouldn’t be hidden. But the CW all along has been that the ABBers have the Dem base all fired up, but so far in the early voting the base that appears to be the most fired up is Bush’s.

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:40 am 12. ms anne:

Catherine:

i’m not willing to let the demos take over our lance bracelets. they’ve been remarkably quiet about kerry’s prostate cancer, so they can’t bathe in the reflected glow of lance’s courage in his health battle and his tour victories. lance demonstrates american strength and determination in his biking triumphs in france, while kerry bows to french surrender in his american campaign. besides, lance is a personal friend of fellow texan george bush, so when democrats wear the yellow bracelet they unconsciously encourage the silent bush vote. let’s hope.

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:49 am 13. dorothyparker93:

Dear Roger,

I am a woman of a certain age and cannot afford subscriptions to all those papers I like that charge $$$$$.

I have thoughougly enjoyed your site and was surprised to find that you, of all people, linked to sites that charge for subscriptions.

You, other bloggers, media and businesses that do make it hard on those of us who cannot afford to do so. It makes the sites think they can get away with it. They brag about how many have subscribed.

I respect Denis Dutton because he will not link to sites that charge. Hopefully in the future you will do the same.

Sincerely, Dorothy Parker

Oct 29, 2004 - 9:53 am 14. Rick Ballard:

Penwil,

The is no “hidden” swing to W. There is an outright and obvious swing that the DNC/MSM has been studiously ignoring for months. Proof? The California Field poll (theoretically non-partisan but always Dem loaded) shows Kerry holding a 7% lead in CA. Sounds bad, huh? Well, Gore’s margin in CA in ‘00 was 12% (and 1.2 million votes). Net pickup for W (if Field’s poll is correct and turnout is constant) – 500,000 votes. That’s in a Blue state with a very small probability of going for W. NY will probably do better than CA in terms of swing to W. It will count for 0 in the EV column but the popular vote margin for W will be counted in the millions – not thousands.

Oct 29, 2004 - 10:26 am 15. Fausta:

The question I’m raising is the public, symbolic identification of the Democratic Party with testicular cancer. Why?

Catherine, it’s probably because that’s one nuance Kerry didn’t catch on the first-go. Kerry must have been focusing on Lance winning the Tour de France, mas oui.

Oct 29, 2004 - 10:32 am 16. MBernard:

Catherine and others:

Thanks for bringing up something I’d noticed here in Austin, TX (a little blue boat of a town sailing on a vast red sea).

I’ve been taking an informal survey of bumperstickers on my drive to and from work. Lots of Kerry/Edwards stickers, lots of W’s with red slashes through them, and all manner of other anti-Bush smartaleck slogans (my favorite being “The last time anyone listened to a bush, people wandered around in the desert for 40 years.” (Does this mean Bush is God?)

Anyway, I started wondering a couple of months ago if the Support Our Troops stickers and magnets were in fact closet Bush support. And it’s true that they seem to have multiplied in recent weeks.

Since others have noticed, I’m now convinced this is so. What it means for the election, I’m not so sure. But I’d be willing to bet, from the political climate here in Austin, that there are more of the SOT stickers in blue states and towns because people don’t want to be hassled or get their cars keyed, etc.

It would be interesting to know who’s distributing/selling the SOT stickers.

Oct 29, 2004 - 10:41 am 17. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

I stopped reporting on Knucklehead’s Informal Bumper Sticker Poll because, other than yellow ribbons (and the recent rise of the Stars and Stripes version) for Support Our Troops, the number of bumper stickers was TINY.

I’d arrived at three Knuckleheaded Notions of why this was so:

- Bumper stickers have apparently gone seriously out of fashion

- support for Kerry was weak (around our bluest of the blue area Dem candidate stickers typically outnumbered Pubbie candidate stickers by a wide margin)

- the general sense among people was that everyone was way too overwrought about the election to risk provoking those around them (nobody wants their car vandalized)

Having done a significant amount of driving recently I have the following update:

- there are considerably more bumper stickers now than 1 or 2 months ago. Bush-Cheney and Kerry-Edwards are almost even, slight advantage to Kedwards, but not much

- support for Kerry-Edwards is weak. I’ve never seen so many “bumper stickers” obviously taped to the inside of windows before and NONE of those are Bush-Cheney

And here is my take on the SoT yellow ribbons… they have gone from easily the most common sticker to downright amazing levels – I’m guessing something approaching 1/3 (maybe more) of all cars I see on the highways have the darned things. Never saw anything like it. They are first and foremost there to express the sentiment they express – I think people want the troops to know they care and this won’t be like after Vietnam. But I think they express two other sentiments, probably in this order:

- anti-protestor sentiment. I don’t know about anyone else, but I detected real feelings of animosity for the protesting crowd for both the anti-war protests and the anti-GOP convention protests. Very strong feelings of STFU about that stuff.

- hidden Bush support.

BTW, in one of the more slimey exhibitions of low-life idiocy I can recall, someone stole mine right off my car! I suspect local kids (heard a car rumbling out by the street, car door closing, dog went bonkers, noticed sticker gone next morning).

Oh, last but not least, the lawn-sign fight seems to be dead even. Not a good sign for the dems who typically win that one by about the same margin as the bumper-sticker wars.

Interestingly enough, when I see the Lawn Sign Battle of the Neighbors it has invariably been the Bush-Cheney yard that wins (the winner is the one with more hundreds or thousands of lawn signs and window stickers). I don’t think I ever recall seeing the Republican candidate win this battle.

Oct 29, 2004 - 10:42 am 18. Fausta:

A quick google shows the top 3 sites for SOT stickers as http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=xrg635, http://www.victorystore.com/americanpride.htm, and http://www.fundraising.com/html/bumper_stickers_troops/stickers_troops.asp. Take a look at their other merchandise. Nothing from MoveOn in stock.

Knucklehead, there’s even several Bush/Cheney lawn signs here in Princeton. I’ve been living here for 15 yrs and this is a first.

I stand by my prediction in the other thread — Bush.

Oct 29, 2004 - 10:50 am 19. notthisgirl:

I live in New Jersey and see a lot of yellow support troops ribbons on cars – mine included. I have no Bush sticker – and I am definitely voting for him.

In a reliably Democratic state, I will tell you honestly that I’ve seen only *two* cars with yellow ribbon magnets that also have Kerry stickers on cars (and I’m out a lot). I’ve seen one “Democrats for Bush” bumper sticker.

I think it is fair to say that if you see a yellow support troops magnet that much more than likely they are voting for Bush. The cars that had Kerry stickers and yellow magnets had them VERY close together … almost to say – “See, I can support Kerry and the troops too!

But like I said I only saw two cars like that, so I think the magnets used by Kerry supporters would be quite unusual.

Oct 29, 2004 - 11:31 am 20. Terrye:

Yes the Dems are indeed the sick dick party.

sorry.

Anyway, I am the person they are talking about and while I might like to think I am special, I know I am not.

There have to be a lot of people that supported Gore and who are now voting for Bush. I just can’t be that unique.

We have support the troops bumper stickers and yard signs here in profusion. Other bumper stickers are fairly rare and other yard signs favor Bush.

This is Indiana you know. Bush has a 22 point lead here.

Oct 29, 2004 - 11:32 am 21. penwil:

I haven’t seen a single SOT yellow ribbon or magnet out here in moonbat land, otherwise known as the San Francisco Bay Area. Which is not that surprising, except that I have seen a few Bush/Cheney bumper stickers, and a couple of Viva Bush! stickers, too. And maybe 10 to 15 percent of the cars have American flags, which could mean something. Or not. They seem to be new flag stickers though, not the faded things left over from 9/11 when even out here there were American flags flying everywhere. (Oh, how soon we forget.) What I haven’t seen are any cars with both Kerry stickers and American flags.

Oct 29, 2004 - 12:03 pm 22. bobmolog:

Well, for what it’s worth, I’ve seen two Kerry/Edwards stickers on cars here in Dublin Ireland and zero Bush/Cheney stickers. Mind you, a Bush sticker here would certainly get your car vandalised in short order. I’ve met a grand total of ONE Bush supporter in Ireland so far, and he was from Texas so it doesn’t really count.

Wait, that’s not quite true. I saw a crazy looking old guy out in front of the US embassy this last September 11th marching back and forth wearing a sandwich board that said “GOD BLESS GEORGE BUSH AND THE USA!” I gave him a thumbs up and to my amazement I saw a couple of passing motorists honk and do the same. Fair play to them, but I bet they don’t admit to their friends that they support Bush.

Oct 29, 2004 - 12:09 pm 23. Terrye:

bob:

Yes I know how the Irish are. It is one reason I would like to see Dell shut down their plants and render a number of them unemployed. I believe in free trade, but the Irish are obnoxious. And they can take that crap about the IRA and shove it. The IRA is Irish after all.

Oct 29, 2004 - 12:30 pm 24. DennisThePeasant:

Catherine-

I oppose penis cancer on a selective basis, as I do with nearly all potentially fatal maladies.

Question: If Michael Moore had penis cancer, where would it start or stop? Seriously.

All-

As I’ve said here several times, I think Bush won this election in September, and I think that when all is said and done, we will be surprised at just how not close the results are. My prediction is:

Bush 52.5% and slightly more than 300 electoral votes.

Reasons:

1) Republican efforts to get out the vote (GOTV) will match or exceed Democratic efforts (not the case in 2000).

2) SBVFT and Unfit For Command. Nobody in the MSM is talking about it…because they are praying it will go away. It won’t, and it will be a huge negative for Kerry.

3) Bush will double his African-American vote from 2000 due to WOT and gay marriage.

4) Kerry will not get even half the Catholic vote. Abortion.

5) Bush will win female demographic outright over security issues.

6) Finally, Kerry has simply run one of the most dreadful campaigns in recent memory. Perhaps Dukakis (or should I say Estrich) ran a worse one, but I’m inclined to thing this one takes the cake. At some point a certain percentage of the electorate will look at Kerry’s campaign and come to the conclusion the man couldn’t run a hotdog stand.

Oct 29, 2004 - 12:37 pm 25. someone:

Kerry, like Armstrong, is short on balls.

Oct 29, 2004 - 1:02 pm 26. notthisgirl:

I am however, still nervous.

Even though I live in a staunchly Democratic state (NJ like I said before), my county is very Republican. I live in the same town as Jeff Jarvis who complains about us “rabid” Republicans! I have to laugh, because we are hardly right-wing.

Anyway, during a typical election season, there are at least 12 Republican yard signs to 1 Dem. This time around there are a lot more Kerry/Edwards signs. We’ll still have a heavy, dominating Republican vote here – but I think the Prez. race will be another nail-biter if our town is any indication.

For what it’s worth, my SIL is a higher-level officer in CentCom. He has charged me with the duty to get out ALL my Republican friends, and Bush-leaning Democratic friends to vote. He says that the terrorists and *insurgents* over there are just chomping on their bits waiting for Kerry to get elected.

I know I’m pretty much preaching to the choir here – but please make an extra effort you all to encourage your more tepid Bush supporters to VOTE! Our troops need you!

Oct 29, 2004 - 1:11 pm 27. bobmolog:

Don’t get me wrong, I like the Irish people in general quite a lot. But mainstream public opinion is overwhelmingly left wing; it’s like that all over Europe really. Politics is best left off the table here unless you think Michael Moore is a deep thinker. Actually, I was listening to some colleagues talking about Bowling for Columbine the other day and going on about how banks hand out rifles in the US and I couldn’t contain myself, so I explained the reality of the scene to them. Much to my surprise, one of them said “well that blows the credibility of the whole movie”. I thought he was joking, but he meant it. Like people everywhere, people here are generally well meaning at heart. They are overwhelmed with anti-American views in the media and it does have an effect. All my friends have opinions about America that would piss me off if I were to get into political discussion with them, so I don’t. I like them, they like me, we leave it alone. Mind you, I’ve left them in no doubt that I’m a right wing redneck from Arizona.

It won’t be too long before Dell does start closing plants I’d say. The cost of living here is getting out of hand these days. How does $5.30/gallon for petrol or $7.00 for a pint of lager sound to you? I live in a small, (by US standards) 3 bedroom apartment, not too far from the city centre in Dublin and it’s worth about $700,000. It’s nuts. European assembly plants will soon be in one the new accession countries in Eastern Europe, I’d guess.

As for the IRA, well it’s not really something people here talk about. If they do, they tend to refer to the provos as “a bunch of feckin eedgits”. They have some support but it tends to be on the poorly educated fringes.

Me? I’m moving back to Arizona in seven days, so it’s goodbye Ireland after ten years. I will keep in touch with most of my lefty friends here though!

Sorry about the long post.

Oct 29, 2004 - 1:32 pm 28. mrp:

My take on the pro-Kerry MSM campaign is that this is pretty much the classic game plan from campaigns past. During the last moments of the 1992 dustup, one might recall the delayed hit against Bush 41 when George Stephanopolous coordinated with CNN staffers to deliver a partisan question at a Larry King call-in. BTW, where does George work now?

The difference this time is that the blogosphere is a real-time counterforce. Not only are several bloggers brilliant writers, but they also offer venues for dissident MSM reporters, producers, and staffers.

I think most importantly, the MSM serve the Democrats best when they ignore the blatant weaknesses of their preferred candidate. This year, it is the astronomical donations being poured into the pro-Kerry 527s and similar ‘non-affiliate’ organizations. The New York Post’s stellar reporter, Deborah Orin, sums up the torrent of dough coughed up by Kerry-friendly billionaires this way:

Excerpt:

The top five anti-Bush fat cats, including Soros, have anted up $73.9 million so far, according to the Political Money Line. That’s nearly equal the $74.6 million in taxpayer funds that Bush, like John Kerry, received to pay for his fall campaign.

Add in the $3 million that Soros just spent on his personal nationwide anti-Bush speaking tour and it’s $77.9 million.

$77.9 million bucks from just five donors. It kinda makes McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform look like some sort of con game, doesn’t it?

Oct 29, 2004 - 1:57 pm 29. Pat Curley:

Here’s a tip for those who don’t have the electronic subscription to NRO: Go over to Free Republic and search for “Prediction City”.

My guess is Bush wins about 53%-45% with Nader and others taking about 2%. I loved the comment about the upcoming “Now That He’s Back In, We Can Start Whining and Complaining Again Special”. Nobody can form a circular firing squad like us Republicans.

I’m going to be a little optimistic and predict that John Thune KO’s Tom Daschle, but I’ll admit that may be colored a bit by wishful thinking.

Oct 29, 2004 - 2:09 pm 30. PeterUK:

I sincerely hope this is not true

“nothing matters more in determining the outcome of the presidential election than the major American media”.

I would hate to think you nice people were living in the worlds first Mediacracy.

Oct 29, 2004 - 4:24 pm 31. Terrye:

bob:

I have got just enough Irish in me that I can be nasty. But I think you are right, most people are fairly decent. Politics just makes them crazy sometimes.

Oct 29, 2004 - 4:49 pm 32. TmjUtah:

Just in case anybody missed it the first time around, I predicted Bush 57% PV and +300 ECV a while back.

I stand on those numbers. Remember the polling before the California recall? Remember the polling before the 2002 midterms – Ah, and Terry Mac’s glassy-eyed blurt “It’s a great night for Democrats!” that night?

We have had G.W. Bush v THE MEDIA, plus tens of millions of dollars of bought political sound and fury. Those tens of millions of dollars have been dumped into programs and agendas conceived and executed by the leading lights of progressive liberal theory.

Why is anyone worried about the outcome of this election?

The people pulling the triggers on the left can’t get sh*t done with the entire resources of the federal government at their disposal. They have NEVER have delivered on solutions…just spent massive amounts of money and complimented each other about how much they cared. This election demands convictions and determination. And the candidate that plopped out of the donkey was a Mass Lib?

What makes anyone think that the Dems can survive a market contest where the price of failure isn’t just a missed slice of pork or a bigger deficit but is truly life or death?

What they do still works from time to time in a city or a state…and the days of it working in states are numbered as ad hoc alt media entities like Powerline, Capatain’s Quarters, and Instapundit replicate in order to satisfy the demand of consumers for facts in their media pablum.

Some dumbass is dropping tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into TradeSports in order to drive the Bush contract down. If it gets below 47% I’m getting in for a thousand on Bush. What motivates someone to try to skew a market like that? Just watching the volumes and the sales illustrates that the strategy bears no relation to what the market values really are…and begs the question “What agent or agencies can spend this kind of money knowing they will lose it if Kerry wins…and what will their payback be to cover their investment?”

I haven’t seen the newest iteration of OBLarama v6.2. Why is it a tip-top digital production facility (with their own branding logo, even) can’t take a better picture than Aunt Sally filming her Eunice’s fourth grade piano recital? The same branding appears on the Assman the American’s (whatever) video that appears on the OBL tape…why? If they share an editing facility, you’ld think the writers might share some ideas over figs and tea about coordinating their exhortations, right?

Maybe there was a dispute over credit or union prerequisites.

I’m not frightened of the prospect of attacks. I am sick and tired of having my time wasted by my own media and the minority party’s chosen loser candidate. Neither of those parties shares my priority: the defense of the nation, and the safety of my family. The last eighteen months have been a necessary operational pause in the war on terror. As soon as we get done with the campaign, the president can get back to dealing with the threat.

They’ve spent the last eighteen months attacking. They never offered believable alternatives in that time – just promises to do BETTER. Even Clinton had numbers and sincere sounding promises. Kerry has brought neither.

Oct 29, 2004 - 6:06 pm 33. Robert Schwartz:

Roger:

That “Princeton econometrist” is Ray Fair of Yale University. IIRC, You have admitted being an alumni of that institution. I think you need to answer generously the next time they call asking for a contribution.

Oct 29, 2004 - 6:17 pm 34. flenser:

It’s a certainty that the MSM have cued up more attack pieces on Bush to run over the weekend. If they all push a big story on Sunday, which they obviously intend to do, it will be difficult for any meaningful response to be made before the election.

Strange that nobody in the Bush camp ever responds to this. You would think that they could publicly announce that the media are going to try to trash them, and thereby take some of the sting out of the attack.

While I’m hoping for the best, I’m bracing for the worst. But looking big picture here, there are grounds for hope. I see this election as just one more battle in a struggle that has been going on for generations. It is conceivable that we will lose the presidency (although I’m working the GOTV this weekend to try to prevent that). However, it is now inevitable that the MSM will lose clout and prestige as a result of their behavior. The story of this election will keep a lot of writers and film-makers busy for some time to come. Just a simple listing of all the lies the media have told, of omission and of commission, would fill volumes. Look for a glut of books four months from now on media collusion with the DNC, and on Democratic vote fraud. Bottom line; while it’s possible we will lose a rook, the other side have already spent their queen in trying to take it.

A dozen years from now nobody will be able to imagine the power and influence that CBS and the NYT once wielded, and ninety percent of Americans will be claiming that they voted for Dubya back in 2004.

Oct 29, 2004 - 6:57 pm 35. dorothyparker93:

Pat Curley:

Thanks for the tip.

Oct 30, 2004 - 6:43 am

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