30 Comments

1. chris_m:

How can a representative from the ‘religion of peace’ be against the statement, “Thou shalt not kill”?

Nov 5, 2004 - 11:29 am 2. Buddy Larsen:

Side-thread, but a bit o’ context, especially if one ‘full-screens’ the pics–which benefit greatly from CRT interior light.

Nov 5, 2004 - 11:37 am 3. PeterUK:

Roger,

What we are seeing are the internal contradictions within progressive liberalism.One the one hand liberal permissiveness,cultural relativism and the construction of a multicultural society.On the other hand the inability to encompass cultures which are antithetical to liberalism.

They were warned when this great experiment was set in motion, but principle was put before practicality and now the wheels are beginnning to fall off.

Nov 5, 2004 - 11:51 am 4. Lonewacko:

The situation in the U.S. is similar in some ways. We’re (falsely) told that we need an abundant supply of cheap illegal labor. And, while filmmakers aren’t shot, other problems are taking place, such as a reduction in our sovereignty, increased crime, increased threat of terrorist infiltration, and on and on.

For a clue to the problem and the solution, consider Arizona’s Prop. 200 and the exit poll results.

Look who’s on the right side (Yes on 200), and look who’s on the wrong side.

In both Europe and the U.S., “multiculturalism” is partially to blame. But, it would be false to completely blame that. In addition, you have to look to the companies that import that cheap labor and the politicians who support that.

I have several links on European attempts to tighten rules on immigration here.

Nov 5, 2004 - 12:12 pm 5. syn:

Lonewacko

Last I checked the Catholic religion was not hijacked by radical fundamentalist who worship the cause of eliminating the infidels.

Nov 5, 2004 - 12:46 pm 6. charlotte:

Exactly what PeterUK said.

On a news feature last night, a Muslim activist in the Netherlands said that his people should keep their strict culture and values wholly intact while living in their adopted country, and that it is incumbent on the Dutch to accept and accomodate them on grounds of multiculturalism. In other words, it is the right and duty of Muslims to cleave to their intolerant beliefs and practices and not assimilate into Euro-Western culture, and it is the responsibility and duty of Europeans to tolerate fundamentalist intolerance out of their own sense of tolerance! Isn’t this very much like the question of whether a democracy should be allowed to vote in a communist government? Should western liberal societies tolerate illiberalism and intolerance to uphold liberal values of tolerance?

The activist also said that there were understandable political motivations behind terrorist attacks against countries occupying Muslim lands, to include Spain. How sharper than a serpent’s tooth.

Nov 5, 2004 - 12:52 pm 7. shel:

And I read somewhere online a month or two ago that 8% of Muslims living in London believe that a 9-11 type attack on London would be justified?

serpent’s tooth, indeed

Nov 5, 2004 - 12:59 pm 8. Michael B:

A great set of posts.

What a reified post-modern and multi-culti narrative they have going in Europe. Thou Shalt not Kill under the theme of a dove interpreted as “racist” (and no doubt “hegemonic” as well in a manner reminiscent of Foucault, Said, et. al.) by an imam, and receiving a perfunctorily kowtowing response: de jure dhimmitude.

To be sure, there’s no anti-Semitism in Europe (it’s merely critique of the state of Israel doncha know) and there’s no such thing as a nascent but burgeoning and threatening Eurabia enhanced by Europe’s demographic changes either, thank goodness for that! (Or are we well beyond the nascent stage?)

I.e., Europe has its own seemingly inexhaustible supply of Jane Smileys, E.J. Dionnes, Dowds, DeLongs and Krugmans: pious arrogations and sneers variously exemplified and variously invoked. Excepting in Europe they’re not primarily members of a self-referential and self-reverential clerisy - for they’ve formalized their dogmas into law much more thoroughly than we have. And not only into law, but more fundamentally institutionally as well since they’ve ceded more and more of their democratic frameworks both to Brussels (trans-nationally) and to hierarchies and professional bureaucrats at the national level.

PS, this Elie Kedourie piece in MEQ lends some insight into the background of French/Arab detente and the Eurabia complex in general.

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:08 pm 9. PeterUK:

Lonewhacko,

Immigration into Britain at least,has always been used to depress wages.The excuse has always been that immigrants are doing jobs that the natives won’t do,they won’t for the money offered.The result of this is the creation of a large unmotivated,uneducated underclass,exiled to immense, souless, decrepit public housing estates.

Make no mistake though from the 1948 Nationalities Act to the removal of primary immigration restriction in 1997 and the recent handing over of border controls to Brussels, this has been a liberal left policy without any consultation with the British people or any thought to the consequences.

Now they are hoist with their own petard the liberals will do what they have always done,discard the whole miserable enterprise like a child with a broken toy and move on to the next shiny new object.

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:26 pm 10. ambisinistral:

We always hear yammering about the fragile sensativities of the Arab Street. I would assume there is a Euro Street. I wonder what they really think?

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:40 pm 11. PeterUK:

ambisinistral,

They are the ones in the housing estates,see post above yours,I don’t wish to be inflaminatory,but how do you think they feel?

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:44 pm 12. Terrye:

If thou shalt not kill is racist what would they say to Forgive them Father for they know not what they do?

Murder is murder and the people should be locked up along with the folks that helped make it happen. Look what Janet Reno did to the Davidians in Waco.

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:45 pm 13. PeterUK:

I think the imam was being extremely avianist.

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:47 pm 14. Morgan:

Lonewacko -

For once I agree with you.

It’s not Catholic Mexicans that we need to keep out, it’s terrorists from any place of any creed. I suspect that they can get into Mexico with little difficulty. We need to make sure they don’t get any farther.

Whether or not we “need” immigrant workers, the borders (North and South) should be open only to those we allow to come in. Need more people? Let more people in. Don’t let them in if they are suspected terrorists.

An Israel-style wall costs $1.6-3.5 million per mile - 1500 miles would probably cost less than $5 billion. Add 3000 miles in the north and it’s $15 billion. A few billion a year to police and maintain it.

I think this would be a good use of some of the $38 billion annual homeland security budget.

Bush’s statements that it is not possible to halt illegal border crossings really bug me.

Not sure what relevance this has for the Dutch. Looks like their problem is legal immigration right now.

Nov 5, 2004 - 1:58 pm 15. Dishman:

I do not have a good feeling about this.

Under the heading of “what they really think” regarding Islam, on Rantburg, there was a relayed comment of “bring back the trains for them”. It brings to mind a joke I heard with a punchline of “Daddy, what are Arabs?”

I fear that if EU politicians don’t get a clue and start acting quickly, things will get very, very ugly.

Weimar Europe.

Nov 5, 2004 - 2:03 pm 16. charlotte:

A proposal for the EU Constitution:

Thou shalt not intolerate the suppression of free thought and expression, oppression of women and children, wife-beating, arranged marriages, slavery, genital mutilation, honor killings, avenging murders, genocide, racism against black Africans, terrorism for the religion and Caliphate, suicide bombings, Jew hatred and racist invective, attacks on Israel, acts of war against Satan America, rejection of European law and mores, fatwas, and all other imam approved religious fascism and fanaticism

in the name of Allah, multiculturalism and Eurosecularism.

Nov 5, 2004 - 2:22 pm 17. Lonewacko:

If we’re going to bring people in, we need to make sure that they drop ties to their home countries and that their home countries can’t influence them.

That’s the opposite of what’s happening now. A bit of research will show that we’ve given partial control of our immigration system to Mexico, and we’ve made Mexico and other Latin American countries dependent on money sent home from workers in the U.S. Mexico has dual citizenship, California legislators encouraged Mexican politicians to meddle in California’s recent fight over driver’s licenses for illegal aliens, etc. etc.

We don’t need to build a wall. Just start fining employers again (fallen dramatically under Bush) and stop giving incentives to illegal aliens.

If Tom Ridge goes, his replacement might be Asa Hutchinson. Here are a few interesting links to ponder:

“Rounding up all illegals ‘not realistic’”

“[Bush] Immigration plan envisions ‘incentives’ to illegal aliens”

“Illegals detained at border released onto U.S. streets”

Nov 5, 2004 - 2:31 pm 18. jerry:

George Bush received an unprecedented 42% [or is that just Florida?] of the Hispanic vote. Hispanic immigrants come here for the same reason Europeans did 100 years ago. They work hard, raise children and pass on a better life to the following gernerations. We don’t need immigration control for Hispanics, we need left wing welfare state, muliticulturalist control. That is a domestic not an immigration problem to be solved.

There is a major difference between Europe and the US. We get immigrants who wish to contribute. The Europeans get immigrants to pay their welfare budget. Europe collapses without them. We donít.

Nov 5, 2004 - 7:40 pm 19. Sonetka:

I’m not sure what’s weirder - the fact that “Thou shalt not kill” is considered inflammatory (what, we should now consider the Killer-American - or I should say, Killer-Dutch - communities?) or the fact that someone actually produced a street mural that was skilful, done in less than six grant-clogged months, and easy to understand.

Either way, it’s sick that they sandblasted it. Way to send a message there, guys.

Nov 5, 2004 - 7:48 pm 20. Lonewacko:

Jerry: the more you know about this issue, the less you rely on misty memories of Ellis Island and are able to see very real problems.

From this: Zogby found that a large majority of the Mexican population believes the southwest territory of the U.S. rightfully belongs to Mexico, and that Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without first obtaining U.S. permission. By contrast, Zogby’s survey of Americans conducted within a few days of the Mexican poll shows a large majority supports reducing immigration levels and wants the military deployed along the border to protect the U.S. from illegal immigration.

Then, search for ‘maus’ here.

And: “We are Mexicans that live in our territories and we are Mexicans that live in other territories,” [Vicente Fox] said in a 20-minute speech in Spanish [in Chicago, Illinois, USA]. “In reality, we are 120 million people that live together and are working to construct a nation.” (Hint: if you don’t know what he means, look up Mexico’s population)

And: There’s nothing secret about [Mexico's "campaign of extending its political authority into the United States"]. President Vicente Fox once referred to himself as president of all 118 million Mexicans - the 100 million in Mexico and the (then-)18 million in the United States, the majority of whom are U.S. citizens. And this is a long-term proposition for them: In June 2001, Juan Hernandez, former head of Fox’s cabinet-level office for relations with Mexicans abroad, said on ABC’s “Nightline,” “I want the third generation, the seventh generation, I want them all to think, ‘Mexico first.’”

I can provide many more links if you wish.

Nov 5, 2004 - 8:41 pm 21. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Problems with Mexican immigration:

1) See Lonewacko’s post above. Those are increasingly important issues. Every time I see a car with a Mexican flag for the front license plate, it makes me wonder.

2) The alien smuggling racket is leading to an escalating level of violence here in Arizona. Furthermore, many of those smugglers could bring in terrorists and a nuke for enough money.

3) While most Mexicans that come here appear to be hard working people with good values, there is a limit to how many we can absorb. Furthermore, for reasons that are a mystery to me, many of their kids join a barrio gang culture and would be quite dangerous except they can’t hit the broad side of a barn with a whole clip from an AK-47. I often carry a gun in my car because of their propensity to kill other drivers for such offenses as changing lanes in front of them.

4) Many Mexicans take advantage of government provided services, and in general impose economic costs on others (no car insurance, for example). It is not unusual for a pregnant Mexican gal to come across the border and have the kid in a US hospital. That gives them a family tie to the US which I think leads to green cards.

There is a general problem here. There are many fine people living in poverty who want to come to this country. We do not have the capacity to take even a small quantity of them, even though my humanitarian impulse is to let them in. I have talked to illegals here, and they usually have a wife and some kids in nowhere, Mexico. You want to help, but free immigration isn’t the way.

Ultimately Mexico and other Latin American countries need to create a true non-corrupt rule of law so that investment will take place.

Nov 6, 2004 - 12:03 am 22. Cynic:

Of course “Thou Shalt Not Kill!” is racist.

It’s one of the 10 Commandments dammit.

Even the ACLU is against that bit of the “Zionist Conspiracy” to control the world.

Had Mohammed said that, now that would be a horse of a different color.

Nov 6, 2004 - 4:08 am 23. Buddy Larsen:

Regardless of short-term palliatives, there is but one real solution, as John Moore says above. Mexico has has excess labor, the USA has excess capital. The relationship is symbiotic. Walls are certain facts. I propose a federal surtax to raise the end-user price of Mexican-labor-rate-affected products to the point where it’s production will attract USA labor. Use the proceeds to start the wall.

Nov 6, 2004 - 5:44 am 24. richard mcenroe:

Civil war in Europe, fascist vs Islamofascist

Nov 6, 2004 - 8:38 am 25. richard mcenroe:

sorry, that should continue …less than 10 years. The good news is, it will cross borders below the governmental level, so it will be appropriately multicultural…

Nov 6, 2004 - 8:41 am 26. Buddy Larsen:

Shades of the Thirty Years War, each ‘country’ had to fight out the religious tensions in a maze of shifting alliances. Major historical effect was to turn Hapsburg’s ascendance to descendance (zat a word?). Today’s Hapsburg Empire is the European Union, no? Same naked emperor? The great “P.C.”?

Nov 6, 2004 - 9:17 am 27. Kyda Sylvester:

When California’s Prop. 187 was on the ballot, I said “no” for a variety of reasons. Today I probably would say “yes”. Mexico apparently regards “the States” (especially those sharing its border)as little more than a northern annex to the greater Mexican state. The steady stream of its nationals across the border is it’s biggest industry. California’s Imperial Valley now has entire communities comprised primarily of “undocumented immigrants” (otherwise known as illegal aliens).

That being said, the flow of illegals into this country in search of jobs and a better life is far different than the European import of a largely unskilled Muslim population for the express purpose of supporting its aging white citizenry. When not isolated by their immigration status, Hispanics assimilate quite nicely into the American fabric which of course is the way we all want it. Europe never had much use for assimilation and now it will reap what it has sown.

Nov 6, 2004 - 10:22 am 28. Kyda Sylvester:

PS> Pieter Dorsman links to a Dutch blog that has interesting info.

Nov 6, 2004 - 10:30 am 29. Catherine:

Sorry–haven’t read the thread, but I have to admit I was shocked, today, to learn that “cheap labor” isn’t the issue in Holland, where Muslims are reasonably well off.

This reminded me of the fact that we are all of us unknowing Marxists, the same way we’re all unknowing Freudians, and, probably, unknowing Christians: our automatic assumption about “EuroIslam” is that it is caused by poverty, not by, uh, Islam.

It’s ironic, because of course I criticize liberals and left-liberals for believing that money is the root of all evil, and thinking money can solve all evil.

As it turns out, I believe exactly the same thing.

I’m wrong.

Here is THE ECONOMIST:

Despite the speedy condemnation of the murder by most Muslim organisations, it could still provoke a sharper clash. This is more worrying since the Netherlands is a country where, at least economically, immigrants do better than in many others. Although they are worse off than the ethnic Dutch, there is no immigrant underclass, and no real ghettos exist. Some immigrants are, like Ms Hirsi Ali, already joining the Dutch middle class, both in incomes and in lifestyle.

Despite the harsh debate begun by Fortuyn three years ago, the country suffers from little overt racism. Fortuyn himself insisted that he was no racist, and bitterly dissented from comparisons between his party and France’s National Front. Many immigrant groups, such as Surinamese, Chinese or eastern Europeans, fit quite happily into the Netherlands.

But the gulf between the ethnic Dutch and Muslims has widened (there are almost 1m Muslims in a total population of 16m). Misunderstandings tend to centre around slippery cultural values and social norms. To many Dutch people, the idea of building a multicultural society has failed. Fortuyn’s rise to fame three years ago was a sign of how widespread this view had become. Integration is the buzzword now. Many Dutch feel that the time has come for the Muslim minority to adjust to where they live and adopt Dutch valuesÔøΩprecisely the view espoused by Ms Hirsi Ali.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3353677

Nov 6, 2004 - 4:15 pm 30. Mirakel:

Translation from yesterday’s “Volkskrant” the leading morning daily in the Netherlands. (www.volkskrant.nl)

BEGIN QUOTE

“Murder ‘Beginning of Holy Islamic War’ in the Netherlands”

The cabinet considers the murder ot Theo van Gogh as the beginning of holy Islamic war in the Netherlands. This is “an attack on Dutch constitutional government’ Deputy Prime Minister Zalm said Friday after the cabinet meeting. “We declare war back. We will fight and we will drive radical Islamic movements out of the Netherlands.”

……………………END QUOTE

The government went on to announce increases in the budget for the security service, more protection for threatened persons and plans to deprive criminals with double nationality of their Dutch passports.

Mirakel

Nov 7, 2004 - 10:24 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed) remember personal info?
Comments: