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	<title>Comments on: Apropos  Moral Vision&#8230;</title>
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		<title>By: Mirakel</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27481</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirakel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2004 17:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Translation from yesterday&#039;s &quot;Volkskrant&quot; the leading morning daily in the Netherlands. (www.volkskrant.nl)

BEGIN QUOTE

&quot;Murder &#039;Beginning of Holy Islamic War&#039; in the Netherlands&quot;



The cabinet considers the murder ot Theo van Gogh as the beginning of holy Islamic war in the Netherlands. This is &quot;an attack on Dutch constitutional government&#039; Deputy Prime Minister Zalm said Friday after the cabinet meeting. &quot;We declare war back. We will fight and we will drive radical Islamic movements out of the Netherlands.&quot;

........................END QUOTE



The government went on to announce increases in the budget for the security service, more protection for threatened persons and plans to deprive criminals with double nationality of their Dutch passports.





Mirakel






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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Translation from yesterday&#8217;s &#8220;Volkskrant&#8221; the leading morning daily in the Netherlands. (www.volkskrant.nl)</p>
<p>BEGIN QUOTE</p>
<p>&#8220;Murder &#8216;Beginning of Holy Islamic War&#8217; in the Netherlands&#8221;</p>
<p>The cabinet considers the murder ot Theo van Gogh as the beginning of holy Islamic war in the Netherlands. This is &#8220;an attack on Dutch constitutional government&#8217; Deputy Prime Minister Zalm said Friday after the cabinet meeting. &#8220;We declare war back. We will fight and we will drive radical Islamic movements out of the Netherlands.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;END QUOTE</p>
<p>The government went on to announce increases in the budget for the security service, more protection for threatened persons and plans to deprive criminals with double nationality of their Dutch passports.</p>
<p>Mirakel</p>
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		<title>By: Catherine</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27480</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry--haven&#039;t read the thread, but I have to admit I was shocked, today, to learn that &quot;cheap labor&quot; isn&#039;t the issue in Holland, where Muslims are reasonably well off.



This reminded me of the fact that we are all of us unknowing Marxists, the same way we&#039;re all unknowing Freudians, and, probably, unknowing Christians: our automatic assumption about &quot;EuroIslam&quot; is that it is caused by poverty, not by, uh, Islam.



It&#039;s ironic, because of course I criticize liberals and left-liberals for believing that money is the root of all evil, and thinking money can solve all evil.



As it turns out, I believe exactly the same thing.



I&#039;m wrong.



Here is THE ECONOMIST:



&lt;blockquote&gt;Despite the speedy condemnation of the murder by most Muslim organisations, it could still provoke a sharper clash. This is more worrying since the Netherlands is a country where, at least economically, immigrants do better than in many others. Although they are worse off than the ethnic Dutch, &lt;b&gt;there is no immigrant underclass, and no real ghettos exist. Some immigrants are, like Ms Hirsi Ali, already joining the Dutch middle class, both in incomes and in lifestyle.&lt;/b&gt;



Despite the harsh debate begun by Fortuyn three years ago, the country suffers from little overt racism. Fortuyn himself insisted that he was no racist, and bitterly dissented from comparisons between his party and France&#039;s National Front. Many immigrant groups, such as Surinamese, Chinese or eastern Europeans, fit quite happily into the Netherlands.



&lt;b&gt;But the gulf between the ethnic Dutch and Muslims has widened (there are almost 1m Muslims in a total population of 16m). Misunderstandings tend to centre around slippery cultural values and social norms.&lt;/b&gt; To many Dutch people, the idea of building a multicultural society has failed. Fortuyn&#039;s rise to fame three years ago was a sign of how widespread this view had become. Integration is the buzzword now. Many Dutch feel that the time has come for the Muslim minority to adjust to where they live and adopt Dutch valuesÔøΩprecisely the view espoused by Ms Hirsi Ali.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



http://www.economist.com/world/europe/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3353677
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry&#8211;haven&#8217;t read the thread, but I have to admit I was shocked, today, to learn that &#8220;cheap labor&#8221; isn&#8217;t the issue in Holland, where Muslims are reasonably well off.</p>
<p>This reminded me of the fact that we are all of us unknowing Marxists, the same way we&#8217;re all unknowing Freudians, and, probably, unknowing Christians: our automatic assumption about &#8220;EuroIslam&#8221; is that it is caused by poverty, not by, uh, Islam.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ironic, because of course I criticize liberals and left-liberals for believing that money is the root of all evil, and thinking money can solve all evil.</p>
<p>As it turns out, I believe exactly the same thing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m wrong.</p>
<p>Here is THE ECONOMIST:</p>
<blockquote><p>Despite the speedy condemnation of the murder by most Muslim organisations, it could still provoke a sharper clash. This is more worrying since the Netherlands is a country where, at least economically, immigrants do better than in many others. Although they are worse off than the ethnic Dutch, <b>there is no immigrant underclass, and no real ghettos exist. Some immigrants are, like Ms Hirsi Ali, already joining the Dutch middle class, both in incomes and in lifestyle.</b></p>
<p>Despite the harsh debate begun by Fortuyn three years ago, the country suffers from little overt racism. Fortuyn himself insisted that he was no racist, and bitterly dissented from comparisons between his party and France&#8217;s National Front. Many immigrant groups, such as Surinamese, Chinese or eastern Europeans, fit quite happily into the Netherlands.</p>
<p><b>But the gulf between the ethnic Dutch and Muslims has widened (there are almost 1m Muslims in a total population of 16m). Misunderstandings tend to centre around slippery cultural values and social norms.</b> To many Dutch people, the idea of building a multicultural society has failed. Fortuyn&#8217;s rise to fame three years ago was a sign of how widespread this view had become. Integration is the buzzword now. Many Dutch feel that the time has come for the Muslim minority to adjust to where they live and adopt Dutch valuesÔøΩprecisely the view espoused by Ms Hirsi Ali.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/world/europe/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3353677" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/world/europe/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3353677</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kyda Sylvester</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27479</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyda Sylvester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>PS&gt; Pieter Dorsman links to a Dutch blog that has interesting info.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS&gt; Pieter Dorsman links to a Dutch blog that has interesting info.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyda Sylvester</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27478</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyda Sylvester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27478</guid>
		<description>When California&#039;s Prop. 187 was on the ballot, I said &quot;no&quot; for a variety of reasons. Today I probably would say &quot;yes&quot;. Mexico apparently regards &quot;the States&quot; (especially those sharing its border)as little more than a northern annex to the greater Mexican state. The steady stream of its nationals across the border is it&#039;s biggest industry. California&#039;s Imperial Valley now has entire communities comprised primarily of &quot;undocumented immigrants&quot; (otherwise known as illegal aliens).



That being said, the flow of illegals into this country in search of jobs and a better life is far different than the European import of a largely unskilled Muslim population for the express purpose of supporting its aging white citizenry. When not isolated by their immigration status, Hispanics assimilate quite nicely into the American fabric which of course is the way we all want it. Europe never had much use for assimilation and now it will reap what it has sown.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When California&#8217;s Prop. 187 was on the ballot, I said &#8220;no&#8221; for a variety of reasons. Today I probably would say &#8220;yes&#8221;. Mexico apparently regards &#8220;the States&#8221; (especially those sharing its border)as little more than a northern annex to the greater Mexican state. The steady stream of its nationals across the border is it&#8217;s biggest industry. California&#8217;s Imperial Valley now has entire communities comprised primarily of &#8220;undocumented immigrants&#8221; (otherwise known as illegal aliens).</p>
<p>That being said, the flow of illegals into this country in search of jobs and a better life is far different than the European import of a largely unskilled Muslim population for the express purpose of supporting its aging white citizenry. When not isolated by their immigration status, Hispanics assimilate quite nicely into the American fabric which of course is the way we all want it. Europe never had much use for assimilation and now it will reap what it has sown.</p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27477</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 16:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Shades of the Thirty Years War, each &#039;country&#039; had to fight out the religious tensions in a maze of shifting alliances. Major historical effect was to turn Hapsburg&#039;s ascendance to descendance (zat a word?). Today&#039;s Hapsburg Empire is the European Union, no? Same naked emperor? The great &quot;P.C.&quot;?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shades of the Thirty Years War, each &#8216;country&#8217; had to fight out the religious tensions in a maze of shifting alliances. Major historical effect was to turn Hapsburg&#8217;s ascendance to descendance (zat a word?). Today&#8217;s Hapsburg Empire is the European Union, no? Same naked emperor? The great &#8220;P.C.&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: richard mcenroe</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27476</link>
		<dc:creator>richard mcenroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>sorry, that should continue ...less than 10 years.  The good news is, it will cross borders below the governmental level, so it will be appropriately multicultural...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry, that should continue &#8230;less than 10 years.  The good news is, it will cross borders below the governmental level, so it will be appropriately multicultural&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: richard mcenroe</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27475</link>
		<dc:creator>richard mcenroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Civil war in Europe, fascist vs Islamofascist
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Civil war in Europe, fascist vs Islamofascist</p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27474</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Regardless of short-term palliatives, there is but one real solution, as John Moore says above. Mexico has has excess labor, the USA has excess capital. The relationship is symbiotic. Walls are certain facts. I propose a federal surtax to raise the end-user price of Mexican-labor-rate-affected products to the point where it&#039;s production will attract USA labor. Use the proceeds to start the wall.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless of short-term palliatives, there is but one real solution, as John Moore says above. Mexico has has excess labor, the USA has excess capital. The relationship is symbiotic. Walls are certain facts. I propose a federal surtax to raise the end-user price of Mexican-labor-rate-affected products to the point where it&#8217;s production will attract USA labor. Use the proceeds to start the wall.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynic</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27473</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 11:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Of course &quot;Thou Shalt Not Kill!&quot; is racist.

It&#039;s one of the 10 Commandments dammit.

Even the ACLU is against that bit of the &quot;Zionist Conspiracy&quot; to control the world.

Had Mohammed said that, now that would be a horse of a different color.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course &#8220;Thou Shalt Not Kill!&#8221; is racist.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s one of the 10 Commandments dammit.</p>
<p>Even the ACLU is against that bit of the &#8220;Zionist Conspiracy&#8221; to control the world.</p>
<p>Had Mohammed said that, now that would be a horse of a different color.</p>
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		<title>By: John Moore ( Useful Fools )</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2004/11/05/apropos-moral-vision/#comment-27472</link>
		<dc:creator>John Moore ( Useful Fools )</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2004 07:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Problems with Mexican immigration:



1) See Lonewacko&#039;s post above. Those are increasingly important issues. Every time I see a car with a Mexican flag for the front license plate, it makes me wonder.



2) The alien smuggling racket is leading to an escalating level of violence here in Arizona. Furthermore, many of those smugglers could bring in terrorists and a nuke for enough money.



3) While most Mexicans that come here appear to be hard working people with good values, there is a limit to how many we can absorb. Furthermore, for reasons that are a mystery to me, many of their kids join a barrio gang culture and would be quite dangerous except they can&#039;t hit the broad side of a barn with a whole clip from an AK-47. I often carry a gun in my car because of their propensity to kill other drivers for such offenses as changing lanes in front of them.



4) Many Mexicans take advantage of government provided services, and in general impose economic costs on others (no car insurance, for example). It is not unusual for a pregnant Mexican gal to come across the border and have the kid in a US hospital. That gives them a family tie to the US which I think leads to green cards.



There is a general problem here. There are many fine people living in poverty who want to come to this country. We do not have the capacity to take even a small quantity of them, even though my humanitarian impulse is to let them in. I have talked to illegals here, and they usually have a wife and some kids in nowhere, Mexico. You want to help, but free immigration isn&#039;t the way.



Ultimately Mexico and other Latin American countries need to create a true non-corrupt rule of law so that investment will take place.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Problems with Mexican immigration:</p>
<p>1) See Lonewacko&#8217;s post above. Those are increasingly important issues. Every time I see a car with a Mexican flag for the front license plate, it makes me wonder.</p>
<p>2) The alien smuggling racket is leading to an escalating level of violence here in Arizona. Furthermore, many of those smugglers could bring in terrorists and a nuke for enough money.</p>
<p>3) While most Mexicans that come here appear to be hard working people with good values, there is a limit to how many we can absorb. Furthermore, for reasons that are a mystery to me, many of their kids join a barrio gang culture and would be quite dangerous except they can&#8217;t hit the broad side of a barn with a whole clip from an AK-47. I often carry a gun in my car because of their propensity to kill other drivers for such offenses as changing lanes in front of them.</p>
<p>4) Many Mexicans take advantage of government provided services, and in general impose economic costs on others (no car insurance, for example). It is not unusual for a pregnant Mexican gal to come across the border and have the kid in a US hospital. That gives them a family tie to the US which I think leads to green cards.</p>
<p>There is a general problem here. There are many fine people living in poverty who want to come to this country. We do not have the capacity to take even a small quantity of them, even though my humanitarian impulse is to let them in. I have talked to illegals here, and they usually have a wife and some kids in nowhere, Mexico. You want to help, but free immigration isn&#8217;t the way.</p>
<p>Ultimately Mexico and other Latin American countries need to create a true non-corrupt rule of law so that investment will take place.</p>
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