79 Comments

1. ahem:

Yes, I think it’s legitimate – especially the news about about Hezbollah TV in France; the French might as well light a blowtorch is a gas-filled room. Chirac has lost his marbles. Perhaps he has a need for suicidal annihilation. If I were Jewish, I’d get the hell out of Europe – especially France – soon.

The situation’s been festering for the last thirty years and there’s a large fifth column of Islamists living in the EU who are now restless and ready to act; note the many vicious attacks against innocent people recently. These are murders – not muggings or beatings. The Theo Van Gogh episode was a sign.

All it takes is one spark.

Nov 19, 2004 - 4:49 pm 2. lindenen:

When it comes to Europe, for some time now, I’ve felt as if I’ve been watching a car crash in slow motion. They never learn do they?

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:02 pm 3. Terrye:

Why is it I think they will somehow someway blame their problems on the US?

And I am with ahem, is Chirac insane? Seriously.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:06 pm 4. Kevin P:

Roger:

I have posted this before but I will repeat it again. I am normally in favor of Jews standing their ground and fighting for their right to reside anywhere in the world but in regards to Europe I feel the warning signs are too vivid to ignore.France’s decision to allow Hezbollah TV to broadcast is an unmistakable sign that Jews will be abandoned to the Islamo-Fascists in Europe. And that group has been clear in what they plan to do to the Jews. I don’t know if it could ever reach the horror of the third reich but I think there will be a general indifferece to anti-Jewish attacks and the deaths will come in slow drips and drabs and the bulk of the European governments will ignore them or give lip service to stopping them. Israel, the US, and some other countries will gladly accept the Jews and give them aid and comfort and will be blessed by contributions they will make to our country. Let Europe become engulfed with the Islamo fascists and they can clean up their self created mess.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:11 pm 5. Final Historian:

I suspect that France and Belgium might not “make it”, and probably Sweden as well. But I think the others will come to realize whats going on and a put a stop to it. How long that takes, and how many must suffer before they get serious remains to be seen.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:18 pm 6. Wallace:

A whole bunch of trouble and in the main they are to smug and self righteous to realize it.

The EU is an economic suicide pact and for the most part their Islamic citizens are not culturally assimilated so therefore have no real stake in perpetuating the “European tradition”. A recipe for big trouble.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:22 pm 7. Foobarista:

IMO, one problem that Europe has is its infatuation with secular political correctness. By trying to define differences away by simply not talking about them, there’s no way for the political system to work them through. I guess Europe is so paranoid of “race talk” at the political level due to its experience with fascism, and PC wimpishness seems to be primarily a colonial guilt issue.

Unassimilated Islamic immigrants are the wedge between secularism and political correctness, and fry both ideas. As a “religion”, aggressive secularism is no match for any vigorous organized religion.

Another Really Painful issue is the interaction of the European welfare states with immigrants. Unlike the US, it’s brutally hard to start little businesses in much of Europe, and since it’s also tough to get jobs in the government or established businesses in Europe, unemployment among immigrants is extreme – and lots of them sit around doing nothing while collecting their welfare checks. Immigrants in the US work their butts off and ultimately end up establishing themselves, but in Europe, they often rot in ghettos without any hope of taking part in economic life. Changing this would involve drastic changes to the welfare states that appear to be a major feature of modern European identity.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:22 pm 8. chuck:

And I am with ahem, is Chirac insane? Seriously.

France will be at the top, so he thinks, of the resulting garbage heap. Who could aspire to a more exalted position?

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:23 pm 9. PeterUK:

Roger,

Yes there are problems,not all over Europe but in some areas things are definitely at the “Bier Keller” stage.There are no really overt organisations that can equate with the Brownshirts.

There are systemic problems in Europes immigration control.

1 There are no controls of the borders.

2 Nobody knows how many immigrants are entering nor what nationality they are,or where they go when they have arrived.

3The Convention on Human Rights,http://www.pfc.org.uk/legal/echrtext.htm

virtually ensures that once they are here immigrants cannot be removed.

4 Many members of Parliament are beholden to large immigrant populations for their jobs.

5 Only the positive side of immigration has been sold to the host populations.The ruling elite now have no means of backpeddling when things go wrong.

6 Draconian race relations laws make it impossible to raise legitimate objections.

7 Lastly,it is my opinion that some countries are allowing the Jews to be used as a safety valve,after all if the Islamists attack the Jews they might leave the French alone.

All the above has created a great undercurrent of unease and disatisfaction in the general population and unless addressed will be tinder to be fanned into flame.

Above all this has been a manufactured situation,a piece of social engineering by those with no understanding of the mechanisms of that with which they tinkered.

As usual there will be ill thought out legislation brought for all the wrong reasons merely to appear to be doing something.

I’d say the lat 1920s.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:47 pm 10. idi_amin:

i like the idea of the French getting what theyve been asking for as much as anyone else. but then we will need to worry about French nukes getting passed along to the new fascists, along with Iran and NK and Pakistan’s.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:52 pm 11. Mark Poling:

First Historian:

I suspect that France and Belgium might not “make it”, and probably Sweden as well. But I think the others will come to realize whats going on and a put a stop to it.

Before being so cavalier, recall that France is quite proud of the force de frappe. Also recall that when France disintegrates, it usually does so with maximum collateral damage.

Reason enough to worry.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:55 pm 12. lindenen:

I wonder what is being said in the Pentagon and White House about the situation in Europe.

“Changing this would involve drastic changes to the welfare states that appear to be a major feature of modern European identity.”

Isn’t it disturbing that their identity should be so wrapped up with a government bureaucracy? They’ve just replaced god with the state.

Nov 19, 2004 - 5:55 pm 13. Terrye:

OT

I saw they having a nice little riot for Bush in Chile. I do mena little, after the really impressive demos of Europe this is a little anti climatic. I guess the ANSWER people could not afford the airfare, or maybe they would not let them on a plane.

One guy is carrying a sign that says “sorry Fallujah”. Anotherr calling Bush a fascist.

sigh.

sorry Fallujah.

I wonder if the guy carrying that sign would like to be trapped in a city in a desert with a bunch of armed religious fanatics threatening to decapitate everyone and anyone who failed to follow sharia.

They know where Fallujah is, they can always go fight for the right to lob off a woman’s head.

I think what we see in Europe could also happen in South America except for the fact that they are too Catholic.

Nov 19, 2004 - 6:00 pm 14. ahem:

I also believe that the chickens are coming home to roost as far as the US/Israel special relationship is concerned. For years, the US backed Israel, offering little dissent against almost any policy Israel might feel inclined to pursue. It’s impossible all those policies were rational; humans act in the heat of the moment. Frankly, in our obsession to mend the traumas of WWII, I wonder if we’ve been as fair and dispassionate to the Arab cause as we could have been.

Mark me, nothing excuses terrorism; I only suggest that there’s enough responsibility to go around. Unless you are strongly partisan, nothing about this issue is black and white. Originally, as I understand, the Arabs and Jews were neighbors and friends. How terribly the situation has declined.

Oddly enough, one reason other countries become so angry at the US is that they count on us for justice: we may be imperfect, but if the US won’t back a just solution, no one will. In large part those who hate us, hate us because we’re not living up to our obligations to advocate the rights of the little guy. As the luckiest humans on the face of the earth, it’s incumbent on us to do so.

I think that’s one reason why the Palestinian cause has gained such a foothold with the Left in some of our universities: perceived injustice on the part of the US. Because we failed to address smaller injustices years ago, when they could be more easily managed, we are now having to face much harder, more intractable problems when emotions are hardened and options fewer.

Time has run out.

Neither Israelis nor Arabs are going to disappear, but the US is going to have to summon everything it’s got in order to help this region reach a solution that permits everyone to live without constant terror.

I don’t know if it can be done.

Nov 19, 2004 - 6:39 pm 15. lindenen:

“In large part those who hate us, hate us because we’re not living up to our obligations to advocate the rights of the little guy.”

Ah, yeah, we are. I guess this depends on how you look at it. I don’t think the Palestinians are the little guy. I think they’re would-be genocidaires. To me, the more and more I look at the situation, Israel’s situation is analygous to Czechoslovakia back in 1939. Israel goes down and the dam will break. Then there will be hell to pay. To me at least, it’s the front gate to Europe.

I feel terribly for the Palestinians, but I think the Arabs, the UN and their enablers in Europe are more to blame for the current situation there. Hopefully, one day Palestinian society will be healthy, democratic and prosperous, but that won’t be until they drop the vendetta with Israel.

Anyway, to claim that the US and Israel have not bent over backwards in attempting to create peace between the Israelis and Palestinians is preposterous. You can’t create peace if you have no receptive partner. Anyway, that’s just my opinion, ymmv.

Nov 19, 2004 - 6:50 pm 16. chuck:

In large part those who hate us, hate us because we’re not living up to our obligations to advocate the rights of the little guy.

Nah, that’s just projection on your part. They hate us for the same reasons states usually hate other states: propaganda. A century of hateful propaganda from the Left, the communists, and their fascist cousins. The same continues today, just look at the BBC or the french and german media. Not to mention the arab governments and media that inherited the european 20’s and 30’s.

This is all part of a fight that started more than a century ago in the romantic rebellion against the enlightenment and modernity. It aint over yet.

Nov 19, 2004 - 6:52 pm 17. Terrye:

ahem:

Arabs were slaughtering Jews in the 1920’s and calling for fatwas against the British and Jews in the 1930’s.

No Israel to blame and the US did not write the Balfour Declaration or parcel things up after WW1.

WW1 the Palestinians sided with the Germans. WW2, Arabs sided with the Nazis and then the Soviets.

The US did not give all that much support to Israel until the 1970’s when it appeared it might actually be destroyed. In fact Eisenhower was anything but proIsrael and we had a huge falling out with the Brits in the 50’s over Suez and our refusal to go along with Israel and Britain going after Egypt.

The US has not been antiArab and proJew. It is not that simple.

Nov 19, 2004 - 6:56 pm 18. ahem:

Terrye, et al.:

I don’t for one moment believe it was ‘that simple’. Most events in life are not only complex, they’re unique. I’m talking about perception – not necessarily reality.

For the hell of it, I suggest everyone read books about the issue that were written, say, forty or fifty years ago when the conflict first arose; that is, contemporary evaluations of the problem, original source material.

The beauty of a contemporary evaluation is that it offers no history and engenders no pre-conception.

Nov 19, 2004 - 7:22 pm 19. PeterUK:

This comment by Graham Danton,vis Winds of Change,shows how vulnerable the EU is to a take over or coup.

Democracy? When MPs complain of apathy and poor electoral turn-out do they ever wonder why we should vote for a bunch of people happy to become unemployed and surrender our Parliament ñ dating from 1265 – to Brussels? You need not a single qualification to become an MP except a verbal ability to persuade the gullible. A while ago I was asked to visit North Devon to speak about ëDEMOCRACY AND THE EUí for 10 minutes. Had I been free to attend I told them one minute would have been ample time. EU Commission: unelected. EU Court of Justice: unelected. EU Court of Auditors: unelected. EU Investment Bank: unelected. EU Economic Committee: unelected. EU Committee of the Regions: unelected. European Bank: unelected. EU Council of Ministers: we have 10 votes out of 87. EU Parliament: we have just 13.9% of the votes. Democracy? My mistake – it took only 26 seconds. Out of those 1189 people we can DE-ELECT just 88 Britons – one Minister and 87 MEPs. Just how many of the other 1101 does the Leader of the Conservative Party think have the ìinterests and values of the British peopleî on their agendas?

Nov 19, 2004 - 7:46 pm 20. PJ:

I’m not a historian but I think the comparison is apt. Their civil and political society is breaking down at the seams (e.g., Holland and France and to a lesser extent the UK) and the pacifist left staves off rational discussion of the problem as racist until…poof, it’s too late.

Someone recommended Paris 1940 by Lottman as scarily similar.

Nov 19, 2004 - 8:08 pm 21. lindenen:

It’s funny this topic seems to be popping up recently. Over at WindsofChange.net as well as this site: http://www.2blowhards.com. Everyone should read this analysis of some recent European films: [Don't read if you don't want to know what happens in Irreversible!]

“Plot spoilers ahead, though it’s stretching it to say that “Irreversible” has much of a plot. Vulgarisms ahead too: “Irreversible” is nothing if not Unrated, and impossible to discuss in terms of its content and themes without a hard R.

In brief, the film presents a picture of contempo Europe, and it ain’t pretty. The film’s first scenes take place in a seedy gay sex club. The film backtracks through hooker-infested neighborhoods; it visits a party where stylish Frenchies carry on (drugs, dancing) blissfully; it follows the divine Monica Bellucci as she’s raped and beaten. It backtracks from this gruesome event to an earlier time when Monica and her boyfriend were playful, in love, and perhaps even innocent.

This arc itself is a parable about Europe today. To spell it out: the film moves from sybaritic and sterile self-pleasure (represented by the gay sex club, pointedly called “Le Rectum”); wades its way through neighborhoods populated by scavenger-like immigrants; pauses over a wonderful scene of playful heterosexuality; and ends with a rhapsodic image of a very fertile-seeming Monica. From anal play, to anal rape, to hetero play, to a vision of lost fecundity and lost possibilities.

Since Noe is telling us that Europe has traded its future for the sake of self-pleasure in the Now, it’s interesting to learn note that Noe is an immigrant himself. It’s as though he’s looking at his adopted country and saying, “Why are you throwing all this magnificence away? I cannot believe it!” The film is clearly offering up Bellucci as the flower of Euro civilization; in the course of the movie, we watch this flower be destroyed.

In Noe’s view, Europe is committing suicide. It’s caught up in a frenzy of self-gratification; it’s letting itself be overrun by people who mean it no good; and, dammit, it was once great. To be hyperexplicit: the film backs out of the anus, explores the vagina, finds hope there, only to watch it die. (I’m surprised more gays didn’t notice and protest the symbolic use Noe makes of gays in this movie; they’re clearly meant to represent sterile self-centeredness. Hey, don’t shoot me, I’m just the messenger.”

Nov 19, 2004 - 9:52 pm 22. WichitaBoy:

PeterUK,

It’s a good point you make. The EU, like the UN, is a new government, bigger than the old government, a new government which is both unelected and unaccountable. In the future, Roger should probably combine posts on the corrupt EU and the corrupt UN.

But I’m curious. Why praytell is there such fervor, in both cases, for turning over the reigns to an unelected unaccountable ueber-government? Is it simply that people are tired of being responsible for their own self-government?

Nov 19, 2004 - 10:20 pm 23. Sandy P:

Why, Wichita?

IMHO – they’ve turned themselves over to the state for 1000 years – mutated monarchy.

Unelected 1, unelected bursselsprouts, doesn’t matter.

They’ve lost their soul, their religion is the State and the State is failing them.

I don’t understand it, it’s not like there was a Cold War or anything as an experiment on their borders.

Nov 19, 2004 - 10:44 pm 24. mshyde:

“For the hell of it, I suggest everyone read books about the issue that were written, say, forty or fifty years ago when the conflict first arose; that is, contemporary evaluations of the problem, original source material.”

This conflict is not anywhere as young as forty or fifty years old. It goes back to the division of the Ottoman empire. It’s been a big mess ever since.

As to sympathy for those who have since 1973 called themselves ‘palestinians’, it is unwarranted and unearned. The original arab muslims, who lived in what is known as Israel proper freely evacuated/abandoned their properties and homes just before the 1948 assault. They were convinced they would be going home in less than a week to a dead nation afloat with bloated and mutilated Jewish bodies.

The public in general needs to be educated in the developement of what arafat called ‘his palestinian people’. Arafat was egyptian by birth . Yet his advocates eagarly drink of his special brand of koolaid.

Ironically the original people of what was once known as Canaan are related to the ancient phoenicians and to the remnants of the original peoples of Lebannon. They are all originated from a group known as the Sea Peoples, and there is very little known about them. We all know what happened to the Canaanites, the disappearance of the phoenicians is a part of our ancient world history leaving only the remnants in Lebannon.

And no where is the socalled palestinian people involved in any of this geographical history.

As to europe, if they continue to insist on prevailing in a false premise, the whole concept will brought down around their feet by the muslim forces. That is as real as it gets. The raw force of an impetuous tide of human violence called jihad will tear a large hole in their fogged layers of denial.

I expect through their engrained habit of prognostication this is exactly what will happen. We will live to see the collapse of culture, civilization and goverment in several of old europes countries.

Case in point, already Holland is fudging on pushing forward with stopping the terror and murder escalation. It will take something much worse than our 9.11 to force action. Otherwise the whole of the EU will fall in flames of jihad and shar’ia.

Nov 19, 2004 - 11:27 pm 25. David Thomson:

ìI guess Europe is so paranoid of “race talk” at the political level due to its experience with fascism, and PC wimpishness seems to be primarily a colonial guilt issue.î

Itís also a matter of pure laziness. The Old Europeans are unwilling to admit that a crisis exists—if this might force them to take some physical risks and do some hard work. Cradle to grave welfare recepients innately prefer to lie to themselves and run away from reality. To do otherwise, is deemed too difficult. Think of the alcoholic who refuses to seek help to overcome his addiction. This is analogous to the Old Europeans of today. They lack the will to save themselves.

Nov 20, 2004 - 2:52 am 26. jenkins:

To answer Mr. Simon’s question: yes.

Nov 20, 2004 - 3:11 am 27. JenLArt:

Given the incident of rascist heckling by the Spanish of black British footballers which Roger cites, has it struck anyone else as strange that EU PC “hate” legislation was supposed to have wiped all that out, but obviously hasn’t?

And why should the Spanish be so racist in the first place?

Strange days, indeed.

I wonder if my parents felt this way about the news from Europe in the 1930’s…betcha they did.

Maybe we’re more afraid because we now know what it can mean (like the Nazi death camps) and they didn’t.

Nov 20, 2004 - 3:11 am 28. PeterUK:

WichitaBoy,

The EU has to be examined in historical context,its construction was a direct development of WWI,fundamentally to prevent war between France and Germany.The founders Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman ( Googling those two names alone will give you some idea to the extent of this clandestine coup)

were aware that the concept was a non-starter presented as a united Europe from the outset.It was therefore launched piecemeal ,the European Coal and Steel Community in 1952,

to the Treaty of Rome in 1957,none of it designed to be in its parts unacceptable.

To get some idea,here in Britain the EU has been miss-sold consecutively as the,

The Common Market.

European Economic Community EEC.

The European Union.

At every twist and turn our politicians have lied through their teeth,”This bit of legislation is a tidying up process”,”that new regulation is merely a health and safety regulation”.At every turn power has been handed from our paid and elected representatives to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels who churn out thousands of new regulations of immense byzantine complexity.

It cannot be stressed too highly that the EU was never designed to be a representative democracy but a bureaucratic oligarchy.What we are seeing is a late 19th early 20th century solution to a problem that has not existed for sixty years.

Along with the casuistry and slight of hand has been the peddling of the marxian dogma of inevitability,”You are going to get screwed so you may as well lie back and enjoy it”.

That the people of Europe do not want any of this can be seen by the fact that when given a chance to vote against it they do,opinion polls regularly show a no vote.

A constant theme is that jobs will be lost if we are not members,that inward investment will decline,that we cannot stand alone in the world,that Europe will be a major power and counterbalance to America.

So why the gadarene rush to sell ourselves into bondage? Because there is money, power and position in the enterprise for the ruling elite and their public sector myrmidons,power without accountability,a constant historical trend in Europe.Politician here are having orgasms dreaming of standing tall in the world.It must be remembered that the majority of them are failed or inconsequential politicians on the national scene.Imagine instead of being leader of Bogthorpe Borough Council you are EU High Representative for Dog Hygene,a very heady prospect.

As it stands the European Union is a very dangerous institution with the same democratic controls as Revolutionary Iran.

It would pay us all to keep a close watch on events there.

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:25 am 29. PeterUK:

Those doing business with Europe should examine the covert trade war that is being conducted via the hike in VAT on imported American goods.

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:43 am 30. christian:

there is no real crisis in europe, but a huge malaise and lots of boorish behavior (such as hooliganism and desecration) and social disintegration (not because of too little official intervention, but because of massive self absorbtion of the middle class combined with unwillingness to make painful steps toward reform).

france, spain, holland have specific problems with their nord african minorities that germany and poland simply don’t have.

plus there is MASSIVE soft bigotery of low expectations towards immigrants, teenagers, and individual responsibility in general.

old europe is stable democratic but reliably underperforming in nearly all aspects of live.

there is more cause for disappointment than for alarm.

if america wins the war on terror, europe will be a (predominantly free riding) victor herself and ‘eurabia’ won’t be like taliban afghanistan but more like ‘mexifornia’.

conclusion: it’s shameful to be an ‘old’ european but no peril, europes failure is mostly other peoples harm (such as those people in algeria, rwanda and sudan), there will be no 4th reich in europe, to stick with the metaphor: seniors are sometimes really unbearable but that’s about it

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:45 am 31. PeterUK:

Christian,

If you examine the political structure of the EU you will find it alarmingly undemocratic.What is of concern is not the present,but the fact that structures have been and are being put in place of which no one knows the outcome,there are no democratic controls on the power of the legislature,a European Court which sees itself as an extension of the legislature.There are no checks to prevent the emergence of another Peoples Commisar for the Nationalities for example.

You are also looking at an Institution whose auditors have refused to sign the accounts for the seventh year running.I needn’t remind you that it was economic collapse which brought the National Socialist German Workers Party to power.

I must emphasise that nobody,nobody, knows the tipping point of a society under tension and that social,cultural,political and economic changes are being forced at a dizzying pace.It may or may not be 1930 but the fact remains that in the 1920s few expected 1933.Better to keep a weather eye open than be a dead utopian.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:43 am 32. mrp:

Bruce Bawer has an essay on the subject titled Hating America. Posted on frontpage.com, it is an incisive study of past and current trends on the matter of US-European relations. It’s long, but instructive, especially when Bawer targets the complicities of the European media and educational systems in shaping Continental opinions about the US.

His scathing critiques of European “American experts” are on target.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:52 am 33. utron:

The general situation in Europe almost makes the Thirties look good by comparison. Demographically, both Europe and most of the non-Muslim parts of the former Soviet Union are in collapse, while Africa and the Middle East are the two regions with the world’s highest birthrates. It’s hard to see how the Euros are going to stem the influx of Muslim immigrants. The sharp rise in anti-semitism in France looks to me like a Faustian bargain. France, a country that historically has had very little tolerance for cultural pluralism, is struggling to assimilate its Muslim immigrant population–historically, some of the world’s least assimilable people. The brouhaha over headscarfs in school is one small indication of how difficult that’s going to be. Anti-semitism, unfortunately, has deep roots in France, and it’s an issue where many Muslims and some native French see eye to eye. If I were Jewish and living in France, I’d be looking for other places to live.

I don’t really think that being anti-American, anti-Israel, or anti-semitic generally is going to prove to be a viable strategy for Muslim assimilation, not even over the medium term. I’m afraid that within a decade or so much of Europe is going to look like a continent-sized version of Bosnia.

Nov 20, 2004 - 7:12 am 34. jdm:

Much of this commentary is really quite overwrought.

The ability of Europeans to kill large amounts of people when they feel sufficiently threatened should be well known by now. The notion that they are going to allow five to 10 to 15% of their resident populations to control everything is ridiculous on its face.

For the more exitable: note I didn’t say anything positive about how Europe will have to weasel its way out of its present predicament. That path will be nasty and involve the deaths of thousands if not millions and there will be a boatload of innocents included.

Note also that those who have been “helpful” in getting Europe to where it is now, will manage to avoid most if not all responsibility.

Nov 20, 2004 - 8:28 am 35. Cynic:

If this is an example then it’s not just France that has serious problems:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003987.php

“But the “Asian” gangs in this article are Muslims, and there is no doubt that politically correct fear of offending the UK’s growing Muslim population has a role in the denial of an inquiry here. From The Scotsman, with thanks to Teri:

THE Scottish Executive has rejected calls for an inquiry into the racially-motivated murder of a 15-year-old boy six months after police abandoned an operation to tackle the problem of Asian street gangs.”

Like this, it’s not just Jews who have to worry.

By the way have heard from some Israelis who on visiting England were given a “choking off” by Jewish citizens because “Israeli behaviour was giving Jews a bad name in England”.

Go figure. Maybe there is a European disease loose affecting the minds of those who live there.

Nov 20, 2004 - 8:30 am 36. christian:

peter,

I’m all but overly optimistic about europe and I don’t share the utopia of an european state anymore, but I just don’t think its failure will lead to a crisis comparable to the 1930s (without a worldwide crisis that is), the worst thing that can single-handedly happen to Europe is to become a greater France and I doubt that England will be a part of THAT kind of a malaise

actually I think that continental Europe would be better of with a 2 party system and a purely economical union, maybe we will be as wise as to establish sth like that in 20 years from now (then with half or 1/3 of the American Gross domestic product per head).

Nov 20, 2004 - 8:41 am 37. PeterUK:

Christian,

Europe has saddled itself with a dirigiste, corrupt form of government.It is heading for bankrupcty and the only solution to an aging population that can be put forwards is large scale immigration,many of those immigrants have no interest in maintaining the culture and institutions of the host countries.All open debate is stifled,without honest debate no problem can be solved

Forty years ago we didn’t have people machine gunning each other on our streets,we didn’t have people being openly butchered for their beliefs,we didn’t have race riots.The desecration of graves broke one our oldest taboos,now it barely gets a mention in the media.

We now have those amongst us whose concept of political discourse is a death threat.Changes have been wrought to our civilisation and way of life, such events are accepted as commonplace,I am not at all sanguine that we have even reached the foothills of the problem before us.

Nov 20, 2004 - 9:17 am 38. Caroline:

To Chuck: this seems relevant to your comments about propoganda:

At frontpagemagazine.com. From the symposium “The Terror war: How can we Win”: Ion Mihai Pacepa, the former acting chief of Communist Romania’s espionage service:

“History always repeats itself, and if you can live two lives, you have an even greater chance of seeing that repetition with your own eyes. During the last six years of my other life, as a Romanian intelligence general, the main task of the Soviet bloc espionage community was to transform Yasser Arafat’s war against Israel and its main supporter, the United States, into an armed doctrine of the whole Islamic world. America was our main enemy, and a billion adversaries could inflict far greater damage on it than could a mere one million. Islamic anti-Semitism ran deep. Our task was to convert its historical hatred of the Jews into a new hatred of the United States, by portraying this land of freedom as an imperial Zionist country financed by Jewish money and run by a rapacious Council of the Elders of Zion, the Kremlin’s epithet for the US Congress.

According to KGB theorists, the Islamic world was a petri dish in which we could nurture a virulent strain of America-hate. Islamic cultures had a taste for nationalism, jingoism and victimology. Their illiterate, oppressed mobs could be whipped up to a fever pitch. Terrorism and violence against America would flow naturally from their religious fervor. We had only to keep repeating, over and over, that the United States was a Zionist country bankrolled by rich Jews. Islam was obsessed with preventing the infidel’s occupation of its territory, and it would be highly receptive to our dogma that American imperialism wanted to transform the rest of the world into a Jewish fiefdom.

Before I left Romania for good, in 1978, the Soviet bloc intelligence community flooded the Islamic world with Arabic translations of an old Russian, forged, anti-Semitic tract entitled Protocols of the Elders of Zion, along with documentary materials, also in Arabic, proving that the United States was a Zionist country governed by Jewish money, whose aim was to extend its domination over the rest of the world. We also infiltrated the Islamic world with thousands of Soviet bloc Islamic citizens recruited as intelligence agents and tasked to implant there a rabid, demented hatred for American Zionism. They were to portray everybody and everything in America as being subordinated to Jewish interests: the leaders, the government, the political parties, the most prominent personalities and even American history. Most of these agents were religious servants, engineers, medical doctors or teachers, and they had excellent credibility.

Although we now live in an age of technology, we still do not have an instrument that can scientifically measure the results of a sustained influence operation. Nevertheless, it is safe to presume that over the course of the further twenty-plus years until the Soviet Union buckled the combination between spreading hundreds of thousands of Protocols within the Islamic world and portraying the United States there as a criminal Zionist instrument should have left some trace. The hijacked airplane was launched into the world of contemporary terrorism by the KGB and its puppet Yasser Arafat, and it is significant that this became the weapon of choice for September 11, 2001.”

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:04 am 39. TedM:

As usual, I agree with most of what PeterUK says.

The 30 year influx of “asians” into western Europe happened without very much awareness or concern. It is just now becoming well known.

The incidents of violence have brought about a new discussion in Europe. Where that discussion leads is anyones guess. The problem is there and is growing like a cancer. Recently we have seen fear of the relative birthrate of immigrants and native populations resulting in the Islamization of some countries of Western Europe in 20 or 30 years. The worry is that they will control the legislatures of those countries. Unnoticed is the annual increase in the drain on the economies of those countries through accelerating rates of unemployment and welfare payments. The usual justification of immigration is the need for more workers to support the retirees in those countries. But, in each of those countries the unemployment rate of the immigrants is obscene. Their language and educational skill are low and their value to the economy as producers is limited.

Even if immigration is halted today Europe has to address the integration of the current population without adding to the burden.

Samuel Huntingtons new book, Who We Are, addresses the past waves of immigration into the US and how those immigrants became Americanized within a generation or two. The waves of immigration were halted for some time before a new one was started. In the interim the immigrants melded into the culture. One of the first steps when you are in a hole is to stop digging. Europe has to stop new immigration before it can get out of the hole it has dug.

Comments?

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:16 am 40. Matt Evans:

Can I just say that reading through the comments on this blog (I especially liked PeterUK’s) is reminder of why I love coming here. Its always an education- European actions baffle me frequently.

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:20 am 41. Catherine:

OK, I’m supposed to be homeschooling math RIGHT THIS MINUTE, but I’m chiming in anyway.

I’ve been worrying for quite a long time now, out loud, on this blog, about “EuroIslam.”

As far as I can tell we don’t know what it is, and we don’t know what to do about it. Neither does anyone in Europe, it seems. (Olivier Roy and Gilles Kepel seem to be the two most knowledgeable people on the subject.)

I’m sure many Europeans feel that the war in Iraq makes life much more dangerous for them, because Al Jazeera is practically CNN over there, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s true.

(We stayed in an airport hotel on our last night in France, and Al Jazeera was on our hotel TV.)

That said, the situation in France seems to be completely different from the situation in Holland.

Which brings me to: department of corrections I misunderstood Hadjenberg’s discussion of Muslim anti-semitism when I heard his lecture. (I don’t know how to spell ‘Hadjenberg.’ I called him “Eisenberg” in my earlier post, because that’s the way his name is pronounced. He was previously head of CRIF, in France.)

I understood his point about the cemetary defacements correctly. The defacements are done to Catholic & other graves as well, but the international media reports only the defacement of the Jewish graves, so our picture is incorrect.

My misunderstanding had to do with the idea that Jews in France were facing a “children’s war,” with Muslim youths terrorizing Jewish youths.

That’s true, but it’s not the whole story.

What has happened in France–and this is completely different from the Netherlands, I believe–is that an urban underclass has suddenly focused most of its criminal activity on a particular ethnic group, namely, the Jews.

It is analogous to what would have happened here in the 1970s if young urban black males had stopped mugging everyone and had started mugging only Jews.

It’s a bizarre development, and Hadjenberg’s point about the completely unorganized nature of these acts is important. There’s no leader. There’s no leader, and there’s no organization; there’s no one–no mosque or political group–French authorities can either persuade or suppress.

Assuming Hadjenberg is correct, what is happening in France is a crime problem–an anti-semitic crime problem.

French police continue to be afraid to go into the Muslim ghettos, so there is essentially no policing of the banlieues at all. In Strasbourg, Muslim youth set cars on fire; nothing happens to them.

I do feel Europe is the “2nd front” in the war.

The fact that the 9/11 leaders had all lived in and been educated in Europe should have told us that.

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:21 am 42. TedM:

The wave of intimidation and local terrorism in the Arab countries is reminiscent of the Mafia in Sicly and NY and the drug lords in Columbia. Judges, prosecuters, witnesses are all threatened and a few killed as an object lesson. Newspaper reporters who report the truth are killed. Before long, society is cowering in fear of the thugs. And the thugs use their power to provide some benefits to the populace, thereby replacing the government as the source of security and well being. See Hamas and Hezbollah as examples. The secular intellectuals in Arab lands were purged years ago through fear. viz. Salmon Rushdie. Read Fouad Ajami for a history of that in Syria and Egypt.

And now this phenomenon is being visited on Western Europe. They had better stop it now before it becomes the accepted format of life.

A version of martial law will be required. And Europe (and the US) are a long way from accepting martial law. (see Patriot Act hysteria). Only when the situation becomes untenable will democracies accept the cure.

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:33 am 43. Kyda Sylvester:

Am I overstating? In a word, no.

It seems that the biggest struggle on the Continent today (at least in “old” Europe) is internal as its citizenry tries to decide whether in its heart of hearts it’s fascist or Stalinist. And let me add my voice to the chorus urging European Jews to get out now (I for one would be delighted to throw open the doors for this group of emigrees). My one caveat for the inevitable coming conflict is that this time the loser has to keep France.

(My first time in Ireland I was fascinated by televised Irish sporting events. They play some very odd games in Ireland – one, my favorite, has elements of just about every other sport you can name. But what was really strange, to these American eyes anyway, was seeing nothing but white guys on the field, and not just white guys but pasty white guys. Most disconcerting.)

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:50 am 44. ricpic:

After reading the passage by Ion Mihai Pacepa, posted by Caroline, can there be any question that evil exists?!

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:55 am 45. Ray:

The racial problems displayed in the EU are a natural consequence of their need for outside labor. Low birth rates, six week vacations, generous unemployment benefits, generous retirements, national health care, and thirty five hour work weeks have combined with labor shortages to produce the EU dilemma. They have no choice but bringing in labor where they can get it. That is Turkish Muslims to Germany, Algerian Muslims to France, Pakistani Muslims to England and so forth.

This is a cycle that is moving to it’s natural conclusion. As more Muslim immigrants move in, the more intolerant the average country must become to historical adversaries of these immigrants. The cycle will have terrible consequences as the cycle progresses. Just as in America where an aging population is expecting the younger employed to pay it’s retirement benefits, the increasingly Muslim population in Europe will see little advantage in supporting the heavily burdened social programs of the EU members. This “breaking of the bargain” will impoverish the European oldsters. For those that are Jewish, the consequences may be more severe than simple impoverishment.

Inadequate military budgets for most of the EU prevent them from playing any kind of decisive role helping America reduce the barriers to democracy in the mideast, and as increased Muslim immigration occurs, any assistance to America will become politically improbable.

America faces similar needs for labor, and has met some of our needs with immigration from Mexico. Unlike Muslim immigration into the EU where integration and assimilation is not occuring, the US has little to fear that Mexican immigrants will bring any anti-social biases with them.

It would be advantageous to the U.S. to encourage immigration by Jewish citizens of the EU to the U.S. This would provide them a safe haven. The education level of these immigrants would be highly beneficial to our economy and integration into the American lifestyle would be assured.

Ray Elliott

Nov 20, 2004 - 11:49 am 46. Catherine:

On this trip, our Paris friends were telling us that 75% of the population is against allowing Turkey entry into the EU, but Chirac is for it, so it’s happening.

The expansion of the EU has a life of its own; it has nothing to do with voters. Chirac’s mission is to enlarge the EU–apparently to create a superstate led by France & Germany that can opposed the U.S.–and he will simply keep doing what he’s doing.

Not that I know much history, but PeterUK is right: the EU was put together in the first place to get Germany out of the business of starting world wars. Luigi Barzini’s book, THE EUROPEANS, published back in the 80s, is an incredible read, and shows you how important it was to people like us, with our political views, to support and promote European integration.

Barzini was a pro-American journalist, and the book is quite critical of France for, at that time, I believe, being obstructionist towards unification, largely by blocking England’s entry in various ways.

The problem in France isn’t what we think of as political correctness.

I’ll get this mangled, because my husband told me the history awhile back, but here’s the jist: many years ago France made the liberal decision that anyone could be French. You didn’t have to be born in France to be French. (I think this happened in the French revolution, but I could be wrong.)

That sounds great, and it is great, but the unintended consequence was that you had to be French. You couldn’t be publicly Jewish or German or whatever.

You could be Jewish in private–that was fine–but not in public.

That leads directly to the situation today, where for the first two years of anti-semitic violence it was almost illegal for a French person even to say, out loud, that the antisemitic acts were coming from Muslims.

My husband would go out to dinner with visitors from France, and he’d make some comment about, ‘these antisemitic acts are being done by Muslims,’ and the whole conversation would stop dead.

I think he told me that when people regained their composure enough to speak, they would deny that Muslims were specifically guilty.

The Everyone-Is-French creed also led to legal restrictions on collecting data sorted by ethnicity or religion. The government has no official statistics (I believe this is still true) on who is behind anti-semitic acts, or even how many anti-semitic acts have taken place (because to define violence by the ethnicity or religion of the victim is also to violate the creed of Everyone-is-French.)

That’s why Jewish activists began keeping their own statistics.

I think it’s probably impossible for Americans to understand French thinking and history on this. I didn’t myself.

But having just come from there, I can see what my husband is talking about. You just don’t see any anti-semitism amongst French Catholics. (And now that I know what I know about French journalists, I’d like to know how ordinary citizens speak of Israel. The French media can’t possibly tell you that.)

The belief that it is wrong to define person by a separate ethnic or religious identity is profound; it’s a core aspect of what it is to be French.

To me, it seems as if this ought to make it easy for the French to demand that Muslims assimilate and integrate into the culture. They don’t have ‚ÄúPC‚Äù guilt about multi-culturalism, which the Dutch do.

I may have seen that in our friends, who are highly tolerant, enlightened people. Neither of them had the slightest problem saying Turkey didn’t belong in the EU. The wife said they’d been to Turkey years ago, and all the women ‘looked like us.’ They went back recently, and the women were wearing headscarves. Again, she had no problem whatsoever seeing this as a bad thing: ‘they are going in the wrong direction,’ she said.

Here in America it would be considered illiberal to say that Turkey doesn’t belong in the EU because Turkish women are wearing headscarves.

So . . . the profound French belief in universal French identity ought to be a strength.

But I don’t know how things are playing out.

Nov 20, 2004 - 12:55 pm 47. Catherine:

I hate Typekey!

What I was trying to post above is that the French do not have “PC” guilt about multi-culturalism, because the French do not believe in multi-culturalism, and never have.

The French specifically believe in universal French identity, whether a citizen is “born French” or not. Being French is not in the blood; it is in the heart.

Nov 20, 2004 - 12:57 pm 48. Catherine:

That is why Jacques Chirac could say publicly that there was “something aggressive” about a Muslim girl wearing a headscarf to school.

It would be impossible for an American politician to make such a statement.

Nov 20, 2004 - 12:58 pm 49. jerry:

This is a very timely discussion. I was about to recommend this article by Robert Kagan on US and European relations.

http://www.cis.org.au/Events/JBL/JBL04.htm

I think there are some basic truths in Kagan’s article that are rooted in history; however, there is a new evolving history that will invalidate his argument in the next 10-15 years. The root cause of our difficulties with Europe is the ongoing cultural and demographic collapse in Europe. European culture is being absorbed by the culture of North Africa. This situation is more akin to the disintegration of the Western Roman Empire then to the 1930s.

Europe will succumb to either a Serb style ethnic cleansing campaign or cultural surrender much sooner then the simple demographics would suggest.

Spain has already resigned itself to become a part of the Islamic world. France, which is the most import of the European powers, has become little more then a vassal state to radical Islam. Chirac’s current ambition is to become the Janissaries in a new Islamic empire. As noted above, Sweden is the process of surrendering to radical Islam. Italy will be next when Prodi wins the election next year. Right now, only the Dutch are resisting. Holland is a powder keg. They are one mass casualty attack from becoming Serbian. What the effect such explosion will have on Britain and Germany remains to be seen. I think Germany is more likely to act in concert with France to put down the Dutch revolt then join in.

The fact is Europe is all but lost because they have become secular nihilists who are incapable of making moral judgments. Without that ability it becomes all but impossible for Europe to defend themselves. If you donít believe in a future you neither reproduce nor use the ìswordî in your own defense.

As far as I can tell nobody is paying much attention to this. I saw a list of six areas of concern to DoD and Europe is not on the list. Most people believe Europe is forever stable. This is an interesting perspective because the only time in modern history that Europe has had any real stability was between Waterloo and Sarajevo. Europe was highly unstable during the twentieth century. Cold War stability was enforced by a bi-polar world and nuclear weapons.

I believe Europe will not count for much in world affairs beyond 2020. It is important that the United States rap up the GWOT in the next four years. If successful we should be in a position to abandon Europe to its fate. If the UK becomes a full partner in the EU [and it will] the United States should eventually recognize only the EU authority in Brussels and derecognize the constituent ìstates.î European civilization is at a dead end. Letís move on from here.

Nov 20, 2004 - 2:18 pm 50. PeterUK:

The idea that Europe ,certainly the UK,needs mass immigration to maintain its ecconomies is a myth,some FAQs at Migration Watch http://www.migrationwatch.org/frameset.asp?menu=faqs&page=faqs.asp

Since there has been tha automation of industry and with the advent of the computer,private sector employment has declined,the only employment growth area is the public sector,the index linked pensiom schemes of which,are one of the main burdens.

Immigrants also get old,become ill,require education and welfare so if we keep on emulating Sparta and refusing to breed,even with a constant supply of Helots,society will collapse.

Jerry by 2020 I will be 77 so before you and your men ride out leave me a shotgun and some shells.

Nov 20, 2004 - 2:44 pm 51. TedM:

Peter,

You are a loveable curmudgeon

Nov 20, 2004 - 2:52 pm 52. PeterUK:

TedM,

“Old” curmudgeon please!

Nov 20, 2004 - 3:32 pm 53. Catherine:

The fact is Europe is all but lost because they have become secular nihilists who are incapable of making moral judgments. Without that ability it becomes all but impossible for Europe to defend themselves. If you donÔøΩt believe in a future you neither reproduce nor use the ÔøΩswordÔøΩ in your own defense

I don’t know anything about other countries in Europe, but this statement is not true of France, which has a thriving civil religion.

France has the same perception of “French exceptionalism” that we have of American exceptionalism. The French believe in France. France, the light of the world. They’re not going to go quietly, and Chirac’s time in office is just about up. The whole country, as far as I can tell, is waiting for Sarkozy.

Interestingly, Christian French people are in the midst of a baby boom, which I interpret to be partly an unconscious response to the growth of the banlieues. I could be completely wrong, but that’s my feeling.

Twenty years ago, when I first visited, I saw billboards saying, “France needs babies.” (France a besoin des bebes.)

Today France has, I think, the 2nd highest birth rate in the EU—and I’m talking about Christian French people alone, not Muslim immigrants.

The birth rate among Muslim immigrants is dropping. (”Plunging” might be a better word.) Daniel Rivet, the expert on Islamic culture, told us that Islamic women are “on strike.”

Nov 20, 2004 - 3:40 pm 54. Catherine:

ooops—I meant to say that “plunging” might be a better word.

I’ve forgotten the figures on the decline in immigrant birth rates, so I don’t know how steep it is.

Nov 20, 2004 - 3:43 pm 55. Coisty:

The idea that the West needs non-Westerners to maintain our economic strength is one of the most dangerous leftist lies. The Japanese plan to use greater automation to ensure the preservation of their nation. We should follow their lead.

Incidentally, the US is as much in danger due to mass immigration/illegal migration as Europe. Given that most of the “immigrants” are Mexicans, who believe the South West was stolen from them, and many liberal Americans agree with them – Roseanne Barr said so the other night to great cheers from white Californians on Jimmy Kimmel – I expect to see a Northern Ireland style irredentist movement in the US over the next 20 years. Of course, the same people who for some inexplicable reason were surprised by 9/11 – I still can’t get my head around how some people could have been so ignorant – will deny the seriousness of the problem until it explodes.

Given the seriousness of the situation in Europe I would like to see the supposedly conservative US government take a role. It could start by condemning the state of Belgium for it’s disgraceful and I believe unprecedented decision to basically outlaw a political party for disagreeing with the ruling class on immigration.

Nov 20, 2004 - 4:24 pm 56. Ray:

Here is another article that describes the difficulties that the EU is experiencing with Muslim immigrants.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/19/international1346EST0547.DTL&type=printable

Nov 20, 2004 - 4:42 pm 57. WichitaBoy:

The American high-tech industry is now in the process of exporting high-tech jobs to India, China, and Russia as rapidly as possible. I know the details of this in some cases. We will maintain our living standards without importing the actual people. All we need is for them to keep uploading their source code to our servers on a weekly basis, which they seem quite happy to do.

All three places have their own very serious problems. For example, it looks like the Maoist rebels are spilling over from Nepal into India.

I don’t quite agree with Coisty on the Mexican immigration issue although I do agree there is some danger, and I do find it amusing how certain Americans on the other side of the political aisle do not see any threat. The comments about Mexico by Roseanne Barr are exactly the same as the comments by Chris Matthews, Michael Moore and their ilk about “freedom fighters” in Iraq. They don’t believe they are really Americans and they don’t believe they can ever be defeated or even seriously threatened. This is just the usual assumption of American omnipotence, an assumption which is both hubristic and which will inevitably be proven wrong.

Come to think of it, that assumption has already been proven wrong (cf. “World Trade Center”), but by some means that knowledge has been pidgeon-holed away from the conscious mind.

Europe is in real trouble. But it’s unlikely that the Europeans will just lie down and die without a fight. That’s not human nature. Something will give; it will be entertaining to see what it is. But I do agree with jerry that it is important for us Americans to forget about Europe–it’s not important anymore. Asia is.

Nov 20, 2004 - 4:55 pm 58. jerry:

Coisty:

I thought the fact that Bush got 44% of the Hispanic vote would dispel the fears that Hispanic immigration was as much a problem as Islamic immigration in Europe. Hispanics are showing the same generational patterns of assimilation as previous immigrant groups. I bet that by 2012 a majority of Hispanics will be red staters and helping the Republicans maintain a stranglehold on government. We forget that Hispanics are Catholics. Catholics now vote Republican. This talk of separatism is leftwing wishful thinking.

catherine:

French Catholics may be having a baby boom but there aren’t many French Catholics around these days. The French Civic Religion is secular nihilism. The conscious rejection of religion by French society is the cause of declining birth rates. I guess we are seeing the “Roe” effect in operation in France. French Catholics and Huguenots will be the survivors in Muslim dominated France. France indeed does have the second highest birth rate in Europe but that birth rate also includes Muslims. What is the native French birth rate? Furthermore, there is a continuous stream of legal and illegal immigration from the Magreb into France.

PeterUK:

You can always move to the states. I have several good English friends who have. My best man is Bowes-Lyon.

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:34 pm 59. jerry:

I have to correct the last sentence…I thought I did in Word. should read …is a Bowes-Lyon

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:35 pm 60. lindenen:

“I thought the fact that Bush got 44% of the Hispanic vote would dispel the fears that Hispanic immigration was as much a problem as Islamic immigration in Europe.”

Bush didn’t get 44% of the hispanic vote. The exit polls were wrong wrong wrong.

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:47 pm 61. lindenen:

“But I do agree with jerry that it is important for us Americans to forget about Europe–it’s not important anymore. Asia is.”

I hate this attitude. It’s complete bullshit.

Just how successful will American attempts to export democracy and human rights be if we can’t even keep Europe democratic and free? Europe is still important if only because we don’t want wacko Muslims or anyone else pointing missiles at us from there. America is a Western country. I don’t think it would be good for any of us if the civilization that gave birth to us was destroyed.

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:54 pm 62. jerry:

lindenen:

The exit polls may be wrong but you can still see that Hispanic dominated counties were far less blue then used to be. Hispanics are assimilating at an increasing rate. The children of the first wave are now moving into American society. The community is being bifurcated. The Democrats have clearly grabbed hold of enough members of the community to build a small permanent Hispanic underclass. However, a majority of Hispanic immigrants are becoming middle class Americans. As long as Hispanic immigration continues at turn of the 20th Century rates it will always appear as if no assimilation is going on.

I stand by the 44% number unless you can show me better data.

Nov 20, 2004 - 5:57 pm 63. mythusmage:

First off, the U.S. has long experience with immigration. Legal and illegal. We also have long experience with assimilating immigrants. We encourage people to become part of American society, and we give them the tools to do it with. From all I’ve seen Europe appears to consider their immigrants as invaders, and does its best to keep them segregated. Thus fostering resentment and extremism.

Unless there is a substantial change in the way things are done in many European nations I see an extremely bloody reaction. Starting with anti-immigrant violence, the election of anti-immigrant politicians, ending with reactionary national governments enacting and enforcing punitive anti-immigrant laws. We could well see the rebirth of Fascism as an ideological movement. And the simultaneous renaissance of Communism as a nationalist movement.

Something’s going to give, and it won’t be pretty.

We’re likely to see riots and pogroms. Mass round-ups of immigrants and a combination of deportation and imprisonment. Europe could well become an ugly place indeed, with concentration camps dotting the landscape, and overcrowded trains stuffed with frightened, starving, dead and dying ‘undesirables’.

There will be uprisings. The oppressed will fight back. But they will be crushed. And the revolts and rebellions will justify even harsher anti-immigrant methods on the part of the ruling authorities.

In short, Europe appears to be well on it’s way to becoming a passel of quarrelling dictatorships, reft by incessent war and degraded by pervasive oppression.

Then you add in Russia. A tottering corpse of a nation given a false vitality by sheer inertia and poisonous apathy. When she collapses – and she will – you will see chaos in that region that makes the pre-Mongol period look mild.

The United States of America and the People’s Republic of China may have to divide northern Eurasia between them to bring any semblance of order to that part of the world.

Far from ending, history is starting to get more interesting.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:04 pm 64. mythusmage:

Bush didn’t get 44% of the hispanic vote. The exit polls were wrong wrong wrong.

That’s not from the exit polls, but the vote count.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:08 pm 65. jerry:

lindemen:

The United States saved Europe three times in the last century and did mini-save in the Balkans. Each time Europe succumbs to disorder. Europe can only save itself. Europe has not yet shown a desire to resist the destruction of their culture. Western Civilization will survive as long as American stays red or the domestic opposition decides Western culture is superior after all. If that doesnít happen then we end up on the scrapheap with the rest of the West. The Dutch may have had enough but they are only one country. Spain and Sweden have thrown in the towel. I expect Italy to pack it in next year. France has delusions of being a leading partner in the new Eurabia. Who knows where the Germans are on this. My guess is that they are too fearful of their own past to resist.

In addition Europe as in EU is evolving into a form of dictatorship. European democracy is dying independent of the Muslim threat. Our post GWOT engagement with Europe should be exclusivly with the Brussels bureaucracy and not any of its sub elements.

One more thing: If you want to save Europe send your son, not mine.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:11 pm 66. lindenen:

“And, lastly, the White House needs to correctly decipher the Hispanic vote. The exit polling by Edison Media Research showed Bush winning 44 percent of the Hispanic vote, a historic high for a Republican, if true. However, this appears to be as suspect as the other results from Tuesday’s exit polling, which projected a Kerry victory. Exit polling specifically targeted at Hispanics, conducted by the William C. Velazquez Institute, found that a more believable 31.4 percent of Hispanics voted for Bush. This would be a significant decline from 2000.”

This is from an article at NationalReview.com. I know there are others. Andrewsullivan had several links from his blog to information that the exit polls showing 44% had been monkeyed with internally. Something about how the numbers were impossible mathematically. They’d been fixed. I can’t find the link. He needs some sort of index. I hate his blog.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:15 pm 67. thibaud:

The Europeans still do not grasp the basic principles that underlie successful pluralism:

–respect religious minorities;

–provide real economic opportunities so you attract the strivers instead of the resenters among those minority groups;

–and then leave them alone.

Violence in the Netherlands (and, next, probably Jean Marie Le Pen’s stomping grounds) will spur thousands of normal, hardworking, tolerant European muslims and Christians (and jews) to do as so many Europeans have done before them and emigrate to a truly tolerant, pluralist society that will leave them in peace: the USA.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:16 pm 68. lindenen:

“In addition Europe as in EU is evolving into a form of dictatorship. European democracy is dying independent of the Muslim threat. Our post GWOT engagement with Europe should be exclusivly with the Brussels bureaucracy and not any of its sub elements.”

Or we should not accept the dictatorship and continue to play divide and conquer with the European countries so as to weaken the EU and other centralizing forces? If something is going in a bad direction, please tell me why we should help it along to its destination?

I find Europe’s constant suicide attempts annoying as well, but allowing Europe to succeed in its attempts would be disastrous for us.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:23 pm 69. lindenen:

Thibaud, they did leave them alone.

Europe over hundreds of years couldn’t even deal with Jews of similar skin color who did everything possible to assimilate. I have no faith that they’ll be able to integrate their Muslims unless many Muslims break from Islam or create a reform Islam and intentionally separate themselves from the radicalized ones. I think it has nothing to do with respecting religious minorities. The Europeans don’t respect religion period. This is all about tribalism.

I’ll take the European Christians and Jews who leave but I don’t particularly want any of the Muslims. When you have a potential fifth column on your hands, I don’t think you should take steps to make said column larger.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:31 pm 70. WichitaBoy:

lindenen,

I agree that European self-destruction is a problem for us.

I would argue, however, that what China is about to do to us will make us wonder why we ever considered European problems to be a source of pain. And our profits and employees are increasingly going to be located in India, not Europe or even Ohio.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:32 pm 71. thibaud:

A quick review of how several European states measure up against my three criteria:

– show real respect for religious minorities: banning the veil, as in France, along with yarmulkes and crucifixes is not just dumb– like treating a psych patient with surgery– but also shows a deep and abiding contempt for the faith of these children’s fathers. Compare this attitude with America’s historic tolerance of, ie real respect for the distinctiveness of, hasidim mormons catholics sikhs chaldeans muslims etc etc. Britain is somewhat better here, Germany better still. The southern Catholic countries tend to be as clueless as the French.

–provide real economic opportunities so you attract the strivers instead of the resenters among those minority groups:

Here’s where most northern European nations really fall down. They imported muslims (like poor Southern Europeans before them) as cheap industrial labor but failed to liberalize their top-heavy, state-champion economies sufficiently to give immigrant small businesses and entrepreneurs a real chance. So instead of thousands of successful small businesses growing into large ones and offering immigrants a ladder up into prosperity and a real ownership stake in the larger society, the Europeans by and large have simply added to the ranks of those on the dole. Unemployment’s tough for a native but it’s devastating for an immigrant because his main reason for being in the country at all is to find work. Inflexible European labor markets bear most of the blame here, but the Euros seem incapable of persuading their trade union aristocrats to compromise for the greater good. The price of buying off leftist trade unions is paid in the blood of the victims of the unemployed young muslim thugs.

The Germans have done better than most here, but this is largely because the Turks tend to be more secular and entrepreneurial than the maghrebins who dominate France, Belgium, Holland and Spain. Also, the GErmans, cramped as their little nation is, still have more space than the Dutch, hence more breathing room for different religious groups to develop their communities. The historical advantages of the US’s open space here are pretty obvious (see quakers mennonites mormons lutherans et al).

–and then leave them alone, ie stop state interference in their affairs. France is courting disaster here. The state cannot co-opt unemployed and resentful young muslim males through bogus and transparent ruses like a muslim “parliament.” This smacks of the fascist corporatist approach: put each group into a box, deal with them separately and give them a few carrots while suppressing any real concept of freedom and pluralism.

Note that those few Euro states with a sizable hasidic minority, like Belgium, concentrated in a trade like diamond-cutting and dealing, have done well by these particular religious minorities because my three principles are observed well here: the Antwerp population gives the hasidim real opportunities, respects them by and large, and leaves them alone.

In sum, Europe has a long long way to go, and the issues here are much deeper than shows of tolerance or political games like setting up muslim “parliaments.” Can’t really help the geographic space issue, either. I’d wager that unless and until European labor markets are liberalized, Europe’s going to be in for a very rough ride.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:45 pm 72. jerry:

lindenen:

If the NR article is correct and the Bush Hispanic vote was really as low as 31% then John Kerry was elected President. With that low total Bush lost Florida and probably even Ohio.

We cannot play the divide and conquer game in Europe with respect to the EU. The EU dictatorship is imposed from Brussels down, not separate states up. Except for the UK the nations of Europe have already given their consent. The UK will follow next year.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:57 pm 73. thibaud:

As to the US not wanting the muslim strivers, of course we should take them. Especially the tolerant, educated Europe-based muslim scientists, programmers, technicians. Trust me, I work with them: there are thousands of them across Europe. America almost always attracts the cream, regardless of ethnicity or faith. Subject ‘em to a security clearance, of course, but bring the pure and talented and ambitious ones in, the more the better.

Let me clarify my terms: a “striver” in my lexicon is one who wishes to build a business, practice his profession, raise his family, in peace and with respect for the larger community. They add, immensely, to the larger society and in our case have been America’s secret economic weapon for over a century.

A “resenter” in my book is one who has little interest in building anything or contributing to the larger community, rather is mainly concerned with tearing that community down. Economics to him is entirely zero-sum. And of course others’ success is viewed as theft from his pocket.

A good example here is the contrast between the economic behavior of those Irish Catholics who emigrated to the US in previous generations and their peers who stayed behind. The former have become (acc to Tom Sowell) the wealthiest ethnic group in the US; the latter until recently were notorious for their social levelling instincts and hatred of economic success.

Nov 20, 2004 - 6:57 pm 74. Coisty:

Jerry

As Steve Sailer has pointed out the white vote is actually fifteen times greater than the Hispanic vote. A three per cent increase in the Hispanic vote would give Bush a mere 0.18% increase in the overall vote tally. Bush won because he increased his share of the white vote. Unfortunately because Sailer writes for a site some deem dubious his analysis often is overlooked. But if you check out his numbers and links they work out.

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/041110_poll.htm

On the issue of Middle Eastern immigrants I’m of the belief (though I’ve no actual data to back this up) that those with talent are more likely to move to the Anglo New World – US, Canada, Australia – than to Europe. That contributes to making their assimilation in North America easier than in Europe. However if they start to arrive here in the kinds of numbers Europe has seen then clearly the situation will change for the worse. They would become an underclass like most Mexicans who come north.

Nov 20, 2004 - 7:16 pm 75. PeterUK:

In the UK every religion is respected except for Christianity which is supressed so as not to give offence to other cultures.Any outward manifestation of Christianity such as school prayers, holy days is expunged from official life.

The great success story of immigrants from the Indian subcontinent is small businesses and jobs in the NHS.The problem of unemployment is amongst asylum seekers and second and third generation muslims,many of whom do better educationally than the indiginous population and come from relatively prosperous families.Disaffection amongst the latter group has to be attributed to something other than social conditions.We never get Hindu rioters or Chinese Jihadis.It has to be rememdered that our immigrants come from all over the globe not solely from Islam.

Whilst many come to live and settle others come to work to support families at home and have no intention of staying.

There is however a significant number who come because there is a big sign at Dover saying FREE MONEY,state benefits,medicine and housing are a lure to those whose own country would let them die in the gutter.Sadly many of these have no skills to offer a modern economy and many have no intention of working,some are criminals,but whatever they are once they are in it is virtually impossible to eject them.Thus we have those with long term chronic diseases who come because treatment is free,hence we have an increase in the incidence of heterosexual aids which is entirely imported from sub-Saharan Africa.

The main problem is it is impossible to have a welfare state,health care free at the point of delivery and porous borders.

Nov 20, 2004 - 7:38 pm 76. PeterUK:

Jerry,

Don;t be pessimistic,I believe from its past record Brussels could be bought.From the people who brought you UNSCAM I give you EUSCAM.

Nov 20, 2004 - 7:43 pm 77. PeterUK:

Bowes-Lyons,Now there was a Lady who did her duty.

Nov 20, 2004 - 7:46 pm 78. PeterUK:

Jerry,Just to emphasise the point about Brussels a “Friend of Jacques” if youll pardon the euphemism has been made a Kommissar,http://ism.politicos.ws/MT/ theres a target for a crack Seal bribing team

Nov 20, 2004 - 8:01 pm 79. Sandy P:

Re: W and Hispanic vote

Texas was high, I thought I read 55%, which skewed results.

As to hispanics voting pubbie, CA/Arnold election, those making $60K and over broke for Arnold. That was W’s breakpoint in 2000, IIRC. Because I read it in a CA newspaper, one of the mucky-muck CA dems made that statement before Arnold’s election. They knew they had trouble there.

Nov 20, 2004 - 10:10 pm

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