From Asia Times:
As a matter of record, most European Muslim organizations declined to disavow the murder of van Gogh. During a November 19 radio interview, for example, Zahid Mukhtar, head of the Islamic Council of Norway, refused to condemn van Gogh’s murder, creating a scandal out of proportion to Norway’s small Muslim population. A Moroccan-born member of the Belgian Senate, Mimount Bousakla, received death threats after remonstrating with the umbrella organization of Belgian Muslims for its refusal to denounce the van Gogh murder. She since has gone into hiding.
There’s a lot more unfortunately.
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22 Comments
1. Terrye:Why should it be difficult for theEruopeans Muslims to condemn this murder?
Even the Saudis managed to condemn 9/11.
It is as if they are looking for a fight.
They should stop and consider the history of Europe. Appeasement followed by genocide is not out of the question.
If the Europeans come to the realization that tolerating the intolerant not only does not work, but it might threaten that pretty idyllic life they strive for they might respond in ways that would make Ashcroft shudder.
Nov 22, 2004 - 12:10 pm 2. ambisinistral:Renouncing violence is a moral dilema, and a frightful one at that? Much less applying a few moments thought, do these people ever bother reading their own writings?
How language has been cheapened. The mother at Breslin who had to chose which child to take with her, and which child to leave behind, faced a truely frightful moral dilema. How is not condeming the people who put her in that dilema justified?
Nov 22, 2004 - 12:16 pm 3. thibaud:It’s spreading. The only thing that will turn the European Left around in the face of this threat is the refusal of the muslim leadership to spout the customary bromides about tolerance, peace-love-understanding etc.
What the MSM fail to acknowledge here is that the two famous Dutch victims of jihad, Van Gogh and Fortuyn, were both strident, uncompromising voices of the left. At some point, the majority of leftist Euros will figure it out: Euro-jihad’s number one target isn’t America, or fundamentalist Christianity, but tolerant, secular liberalism.
Nov 22, 2004 - 12:17 pm 4. Knucklehead:I don’t know who this “Spengler” writing in the Asia Times is but unless I’m badly misreading the article he’s a nitwit of the first order.
Nov 22, 2004 - 12:35 pm 5. Solomon:Read a bit more of his stuff. I assure you you’re misreading him. He’s a skeptic vis a vis democracy and Islam, and his tone is sometimes a bit sarcastic as he tries to explain the inevitabilities, not advocate or justify them.
Nov 22, 2004 - 12:47 pm 6. chuck:Um, Knucklehead,
I think he was argueing on your side. That is, Islam is incompatible with liberal western society. In order to become part of the modern European tradition it either has to repudiate parts of the Koran, or vanish. Neither is likely to happen without some violence. I don’t think he says it must be tolerated.
Nov 22, 2004 - 12:54 pm 7. TmjUtah:I am highly alarmed about what may become of Europe over the next handful of years. Holland. france. Spain. The U.K.. The ongoing schizophrenic episode that is Germany…
The Dutch response to the murder of Van Gogh shocked me. Those actions of burned mosques and madrassas violate all of Europes carefully crafted image of tolerance and social elitism.
There may well be a ‘red state’ demographic in Europe that has had enough and isn’t going to take it any more.
I don’t remember which column the sentiment was penned in, but I agree it is true that societies that trust their governments are unlikely to conduct vigilante justice. America is painted the cowboy of the world but the incidence of citizen reprisals against immigrants of Islamic or Arab appearance after 9/11 could be counted on one man’s fingers.
That is not the case in tiny Holland. And the government and media there won’t acknowledge the conflict.
If the Dutch have had their fill it may mean that the lid is a lot closer to blowing off than even the pessimists think.
Nov 22, 2004 - 1:26 pm 8. Syl:Tmj…I agree.
As for Spengler, he makes a lot of sense to me. This democracy thing I know will be difficult for Arabs to handle. I think Iraq may succeed, because the shia majority has a wise, even-though very religious, spiritual leader in Sistani.
I think the main problem will be how the losers handle the outcome of their elections. Will they easily learn to fight with words, not swords.
But Spengler isn’t counting one major aspect of what is happening in Iraq that the Christians of centuries ago didn’t have to the degree that Iraq will (hopefully) and that is free-market capitalism. I think that will speed up the process of forcing Islam to more tolerance. Because if fanaticism gets in the way it will have hell to pay. I don’t think this will take centuries. Decades, yes, centuries no.
Nov 22, 2004 - 1:41 pm 9. lindenen:“There may well be a ‘red state’ demographic in Europe that has had enough and isn’t going to take it any more.”
Oh, please, don’t call it a “red state” demographic. It’s slander to the many red state Americans who would never burn down the house of worship of any religion. Europe has a neo-nazi infestation as well as many Islamofascists, and the only parties publically discussing the problems seem to be vile racists who carry pictures of Hitler with hearts on them.
Nov 22, 2004 - 1:45 pm 10. chuck:The Dutch response to the murder of Van Gogh shocked me.
Not me. Common sense says that there is bound to be a lot of underground prejudice. Hey, I have heard some of the most offensive racist remarks in the Blue bastion of Massachusetts. What the educated write in the papers and what the average citizen thinks are two very different things.
Europe has a neo-nazi infestation as well as many Islamofascists
Yep, and that is scary. Those folks don’t like the U.S. any better than their leftist relations. We are a bit of an historical anomaly, an enlightenment/reformation remnant in a world that has moved on. I don’t personally think modern thought has been an improvement on what the Founders brought to the table.
Nov 22, 2004 - 2:39 pm 11. Snippet:What the author is saying is simply that real, genuine Muslims have a value system/moral code that is fundamentally (no pun intended) incompatible with the basic tenets of Western Civilization, and, more importantly, the law in all countries that are not Islamic Theocracies.
If he is right, than Muslims do not belong in Europe, period.
Calling the increasingly common European demand that Islamic immigrants respect European values, AND LAW, “smug” is utterly and completely ridiculous, and I could care less what sort of nonsense was common belief in Europe during the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages are long gone, and if Muslims have a hankering for that sort of system, they can create it in their homelands.
Nov 22, 2004 - 2:49 pm 12. TmjUtah:lindenen -
Poor choice of words on my part – and I apologize for being imprecise.
My perception of “red state” is me – I am spiritual, not religous, social not tribal, citizen and most emphatically not subject.
That doesn’t jibe at all with the pop media label at all. That is their affair, not mine, but I could see how it confuses conversation in a public forum. My bust.
A man might let trash gather on his street because it’s somebody else’s job to pick it up. Watching the dark wash over his world is another situation entirely. Sometimes the fight is only as far away as the skin on your own knuckles and there’s not a thing you can do about it but make sure it gets no closer than that.
What must it be like to be sitting in your little flat on the polder and know that your nation is defenceless, and that you allowed it to happen?
The Dutch know. The rest of Europe is going to find out.
Nov 22, 2004 - 2:57 pm 13. bkochba:This is incredible:
“It is not clear where the present crisis will lead. A few European politicians are demanding harsh measures to suppress Islamist radicalism. The German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg’s cultural minister, Annette Schavan, proposes that a law to compel Muslim clergy to preach exclusively in German, while the interior minister of Brandenburg, Joerg Schoenbohm, wants to take away the citizenship of “hate preachers”.”
Nothing ever changes in Europe, does it?
They keep lecturing Americans on how easy it was for the Nazis to take power, how we don’t realize how easily civil liberties are eroded, but when it comes to it, who doesn’t remember, who comes up with the same nationalistic measures every time?
Nov 22, 2004 - 3:59 pm 14. thibaud:Re. “red” and “blue,” stereotypes are deceiving. Anyone who’s spent a lot of time in the great northern cities and the southern US knows that race relations are far worse in those supposed bastions of progressivism, New York and Boston, than anywhere in the south.
Over the last 20 years, the worst big-city race riots in this country have all occurred in three cities, each of whic voted for Kerry by more than two to one: NYC, Boston, and LA.
Be likewise skeptical of Europe’s veneer of “progressive” tolerance. I’m betting the next Holland-style outbreak of violence and retribution will occur in Denmark or Sweden.
Nov 22, 2004 - 4:35 pm 15. PeterUK:What you are seeing here is the European political system at work.
1 Create a problem
2 Brush any visible mess from the problem under the carpet.
3 Howl down anyone who suggests there might be a problem.
4 Deny there is a problem.
5 Legislate against those who bear the brunt of the problem.
6 Suddenly notice that everything has gone shit shaped and there is an enormous problem.
7 Panic and bring in ill thought out draconian legislation.
8 Start again on a new problem,which has arisen from the legislation brought in to solve the old problem
9 Repeat until it is time to retire in glory on the public purse,showered with honours and regarded as a wise elder statesman.
10 Lose no opportunity in advising “younger” countries how to manage their affairs and show respect to a statesman of your illustrious standing.
11 Preferably be French.
Please note that this is equal opportunity incompetence and the use of the word statesman is non gender specific,nor does it etc etc etc.
Nov 22, 2004 - 5:31 pm 16. pdq332:The thing that strikes me the most is how childish is the Muslim position at the root of it. Every six year old learns on the playground the difference between an giving insult and being insulted: being that the latter is under your control. So they have institutionalized a six year old’s emotional response to insults in their blasphemy laws. Brilliant.
Nov 22, 2004 - 7:33 pm 17. chuck:pdq332:
I feel that your analysis is perhaps a bit too blue state. Religion is not just another opinion if you truly believe that you serve God, the creator of the universe and man. Think about it, think about it as if such a God existed. Now if such a God revealed his desires to Mohammed and they are written down in the Koran, how should one act? You are asking that these folks become skeptics or non-believers, as most Europeans these days seem to be. This is not easy, especially when the religion is winning new converts simply because it offers something solid in the spongy morass of current European identity and morality.
The great achievement in this country is that sincere belief in God does not in general lead to violent action against non-believers or heretical sects. There have been exceptions, of course. John Brown was one such. But in general we have benefited from the hard earned tolerance that eventually followed on the English civil war and the Revolution of 1688. It also helps when there can be latter day prophets, such as George Fox or Joseph Smith. This allows for some change, whether or not we personally believe in their revelations. There have been such movements in Islam, the Sufis for one. Let us hope that the Salifists fail in their attempt to become the one true Islam and that something closer to the Sufi tradition flourishes in its stead.
Nov 22, 2004 - 8:54 pm 18. Ariana:Don’t let van Gogh’s murder silence his statement.
One fitting response to van Gogh’s murderers would be an international audience for his film.
Are there plans to release the film Submission in the United States?
At the very least, many people will be interested in purchasing his film through the usual online video/dvd sources, including English subtitles.
Nov 22, 2004 - 9:13 pm 19. Kevin P:Roger:
In the runup and aftermath of this election there have been many hysterical comparisons between Christian and Muslim orthodoxy. The Van Gogh murder is a good teaching lesson. When the various artistic experiments in religous icons and fecal material was taking place(piss christ etc.) There were many calls of blasphemey and calls for action. The Christian community did respond, with a call to end federal tax support. The difference between getting your tax supported money pulled and getting buthchered in the street should explain the difference between the two religous communities.
Nov 22, 2004 - 9:50 pm 20. ArtD0dger:Jeez Roger, your intro hardly prepared us for that article.
This Spengler inhabits the darkest of all possible worlds. His bitterly anti-western opening is typical enough in this day, but he follows it with anti-christian, anti-jewish, and anti-islamic tracts that are equally disparaging. All the parties, it seems, are irrevocably committed to primitive, inflexible worldviews that condemn them to a great train-wreck of civilizations. The scary part is that he actually makes his case quite forcefully.
But I do not believe it has come to that quite yet.
Hey, wasn’t this guy a ghost-buster or something?
Nov 23, 2004 - 12:01 am 21. Michael B:Recalling the line from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid I want to say of Spengler, “Who is that guy?”
Some are reading him far too literally. Spengler is a provocative and probative analyst in this piece who deserves nothing but applause. His most elemental themes are nothing less than human nature and civilization and he’s advancing along Socratic/realist lines, not by virtue of any facile presumption or insinuation. When he employs some fairly caustic irony it’s to achieve penetrating effect, to further ask all the right questions. Spengler is not formulating anti-Western dogma or cant, not even anti-Christian or anti-religious themes. Instead, Socratically, he’s asking all the right questions. He’s employing not a bludgeon, but a scalpel, and he’s expertly cutting to precisely the right depth. More than applause, an ovation is his due.
Nov 23, 2004 - 10:52 am 22. Neo:When I was in the Netherlands just a week ago, the folks there were quick to point out that Van Gogh wasn’t disliked just for the movie about Muslim’s treatment of women.
Van Gogh was compared with Michael Moore as a general pain-in-the-ass as they thought he had managed, through his many odd remarks etc., to acquire more enemies than just the Muslims.
While they thought murder was an extreme reaction, they didn’t seem suprised that Van Gogh was targeted.
Nov 23, 2004 - 12:21 pm