50 Comments

1. lindenen:

It seems Ann Althouse can tell the future!

Nov 28, 2004 - 8:09 pm 2. richard mcenroe:

I read Stone’s comments in Playboy and other interviews. He exhibits the classic provincialism of the left, treating Alexander’s bisexuality in the context of contemporary America rather than in reference to the mores of his time (read Aristophanes’ The Clouds for a taste).

Nov 28, 2004 - 8:11 pm 3. ambisinistral:

Remind me to check under my bed for a Fundamentalist Christian Boogyman before I go to sleep tonight.

I’m afraid this is the new moral reletavism coming from the Braniacs in Europe these days… Islamist merely chop off heads, we impoverish Oliver Stone by being louts and not filling the theaters. Oh, the horror, the horror.

Nov 28, 2004 - 8:22 pm 4. Jeff Harrell:

Naturally, a Google News search for the phrase “gay as a maypole” turns up no results at all but the Independent article in question.

I think the author just made that quote up.

Nov 28, 2004 - 8:49 pm 5. David [.net]:

What American uses the phrase “gay as a maypole”? I was curious about who this internet critic was. I ran this google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2B%22gay+as+a+maypole%22+%2B%22alexander+the+great%22&btnG=Google+Search

It only returned one link, for imdb.com. It’s on their public message board for the film. The “online critic” is from the Bahamas.

I picked one pseudorandom example. I saw “School of Rock” again tonight. There is a character who is a Liza Minelli fan, designs and makes flamboyant costumes, etc. And he’s 10 years old. I looked it up, and this little $20 million dollar movie grossed $19.6 in its opening weekend. With a homosexual grade schooler.

“Alexander” cost $150 million and grossed $21.6 in its opening weekend.

Nov 28, 2004 - 8:50 pm 6. Jeff Harrell:

Sorry to comment twice in such quick succession, but another thought occurred. I haven’t read any reviews of “Alexander,” nor have I even seen a preview for it. I’m as close to a completely non-biased potential movie goer as you’re likely to find ÔøΩÔøΩand I have absolutely no desire to see that film. The advance buzz about it was so dismal that I wasn’t even a little bit interested. What was that buzz, you ask? That middle America would hate it because of all the gay stuff.

Oliver Stone, I think, torpedoed his own movie when he did that interview a couple of weeks ago. I think it was Prof. Reynolds who accused him of trying to preemptively set up an excuse for bad box office receipts, but I think what he actually accomplished was to turn otherwise open-minded movie-goers away from the film. After hearing (second-hand) what the director himself was saying about it, it sounded to me like three hours of hardcore gay porn.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Nov 28, 2004 - 9:14 pm 7. Pat Curley:

I suspect that La Cage and Victor/Victoria (both of which had major gay characters/themes) will end up with higher grosses than Alexander. Maybe this article is a Hail Mary pass to the gay/leftists to rescue Stone?

Nov 28, 2004 - 10:36 pm 8. GunnyBob:

Had the chance to see Alexander, Roger, and it was worse than I could have imagined. The bisexual aspects were far from objectionable, but the acting, writing, and directing were indescribably atrocious.

Your pal

Gunny

Nov 28, 2004 - 10:39 pm 9. goldsmith:

As a young man in a small town, my only source for images of beautiful men was in antiquity, so I quickly amassed an impressive collection of resources on Greek and Roman sculpture and ceramics. I was certainly aware at that age of the sexual behavior of Hellenistic men, but the funny part is that might be the least interesting aspect of Alexander’s life. I was glad to hear that it was to be included in the tale in some manner (given Hollywood’s usual practice of scrubbing homosexuality from the biographies of their heroes, from “The Agony and the Ecstasy” to “A Beautiful Mind”) but also disappointed because a ham-handed hack was at the helm who would use this matter-of-fact bit of biography to bludgeon us over the head. That way he would be able to cry “homophobia” when his turkey got roasted.

How I only wish Stanley was alive; he could have done Alexander justice (hey, he pulled “Spartacus” out of the toilet, even though he hated it!). If not, I wish he had at least been able to make his Napoleon.

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:44 am 10. Matt Evans:

Seems to me that Stone wanted a controversial film, hence playing up the homosexual aspects of the movie for pre-buzz. I’ve heard next to nothing from the Christian Right about this movie and why they’d bother to protest this film is beyond me.

Nov 29, 2004 - 4:41 am 11. Hermie:

Hollywood has tried to blame their turkeys on ‘conservative Christians’. Remember when Sharon Stone said that she wanted to kiss Halle Berry in ‘Catwoman’, but the studio was afraid of the backlash from ‘Christians’?

Let’s face it, they have been making really, REALLY bad films, and they refuse to believe it’s their own fault. Somehow, it has to be the ignorant holy rollers in the red states that made the film fail.

Get a grip, Ollie, Sharon, etc….Make a film with decent writing, understandable, and adult (I mean mature, not 4 letter words in every sentence), and people might actually pay their hard-earned money to see it.

(BTW…I remember seeing ‘Gods and Monsters’. It was an intelligent script and great performances, even though the subject matter was not exactly something I was comfortable with.)

Nov 29, 2004 - 4:52 am 12. Fausta:

Hermie, I agree with you 100%. The number of high-budget, low content “Hollywood” movies coming out is staggering, but of course their lack of success is to be blamed on the ignorant holy rollers.

A movie can be adult and not sexual even when there is sexual tension, like my favorite all-time-tearjerker, Brief Encounter, and its theme of loyalty would be lost in a lot of people.

Gods and Monsters was excellent, and Brendan Fraser looked fabulous (Greek-god-like, if I may say so) while giving an excellent performance — very different from his Mummy roles. Ian McK was also excellent.

But back to Alexander. Stone said, “Alexander to me is a perfect blend of male-female, masculine-feminine, yin-yang. He could communicate with both sides of his nature.” I don’t believe that’s what Plutarch had in mind when he described the conquest of Thebes. Yin-yang my foot.

Nov 29, 2004 - 5:27 am 13. DennisThePeasant:

First of all, who in the Hell actually goes to an Oliver Stone film expecting any level of real quality? Hello? Didn’t you see Natural Born Killers or Salvador? This is coming as a surprise?

Irrespective, the reviews got to me and I just had to go see it.

In the proper frame of mind, Alexander qualifies as one of the most entertaining films in years. It is as if Stone picked up Cleopatra one day and decided what the world needed was a new series of Taylor and Burton movies…and he started with boobs and breastplates rather than domestic strife because he’s still looking for this millenium’s Tennessee Williams.

Yes, it does plod along and at three hours it does overstay its welcome under any circumstances, but this one is for the ages. The script had to be handled by at least 100 different script doctors…it is the worst dialogue in any movie for at least a decade. And what a bunch of girly-men performances (high levels of bellowing and swishing by just about everyone)! They leave you remincing fondly of Charleton Heston’s non-acting (think about that for a moment).

But, if there is truly one legitimate reason to see Alexander, it is Angelina Jolie. What an absolute hoot! Oliver Stone may have had trouble differentiating between Macedonians and Greeks, but Jolie bypasses the problem by simply assuming both are from Transylvania. The first time see opened her mouth and delivered her lines in best Bela Lugosi fashion, a significant minority of those in the theatre (including me) laughed out loud. Clearly Jolie knew she was involved in a Grade-A Turkey, so she decides to spend her time on camera chewing as much scenery as possible. Half way through the film I was doing little more than waiting to see if she would slyly arch an eyebrow at some point to let us know she was in on the joke.

My only regret is that this film wasn’t made about 35 years ago. Had it been, then I could have watched it, in the buff, with my own true first love, a bottle of Wild Turkey and two fat joints of best domestic…just as I viewed Plan 9 From Outer Space.

Nov 29, 2004 - 5:27 am 14. DennisThePeasant:

It is also worth noting that this probably the flat-out dumbest movie to hit the screens since Good Will Hunting.

Alexander would have been a far better movie if Stone’d had Matt Damon show up half way through the film in breatplate and helmet and squeek out “Matt Damon”…

Nov 29, 2004 - 5:32 am 15. Fausta:

Straight from the Instapundit, Sponge Bob beats Alexander.

Sponge Bob. Now there’s a yin-ynag guy I like!

Nov 29, 2004 - 6:28 am 16. Morgan:

FWIW, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Office for Film and Broadcasting, which issues ratings from their own moral perspective, gave this film an L – “limited adult audience, films whose problematic content many adults would find troubling.” They declined to give it an “O – Morally Offensive” rating. Gore and explicit heterosexual sex seem to have been as important as homosexual content.

Maybe Catholics don’t qualify as “Conservative Christians”.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/movies/04mv446.htm

Nov 29, 2004 - 6:29 am 17. Byron00:

This is starting to sound like a movie that will end up being edited down into a hilarious 30-minute short that will play the gay theater circuit in perpetuity. In that form it might even break even sometime around the end of the century.

Nov 29, 2004 - 6:59 am 18. Percy Dovetonsils:

I’m Catholic, and while I’ve heard that the Catholic TV/Movie police still exist, I never encounter their writings. Roger Ebert is far more relevant than the bishops when it comes to movies.

Dennis, I’ve heard that Angelina Jolie’s performance is causing quite the controversy – is it a tribute to Bela Lugosi, or just channelling Zsa Zsa Gabor? I also understand Rosario Dawson is drop-dead funny, as she apparently learned her lines phonetically.

(Incidentally, the groundwork is being laid to blame any bum box office for Kinsey on us rubes, too. I’ll be interested to see how this strategy of constantly deriding your audience works out over the long term.)

Nov 29, 2004 - 7:14 am 19. Patrick Tyson:

Meanwhile, those red state favorites National Treasure and The Polar Express sold out screens from Palos Verdes to Santa Monica this past weekend.

What an industry.

In her Los Angeles Times Book Review review of Open Wide: How Hollywood Box Office Became a National Obsession by Dade Hayes and Jonathan Bing, producer Lynda Obst is disappointed with the authors’ conclusion that, as Joseph E. Levine put it: “You can fool all the people all the time if the advertising is right and the budget is big enough.”

Her conclusion: “If this were true, studio heads wouldn’t be running around like headless chickens nursing ulcers. If this were true, the flops of the summer of 2003 wouldn’t have happened. No, the audience is too smart, all the money thrown at them notwithstanding. And Open Wide is too smart a book for such a facile conclusion.

I’ll probably see Alexander when it moves to the $3.00 theater in Redondo Beach in a couple of weeks.

Nov 29, 2004 - 7:32 am 20. Jamie Irons:

I think Stone should put out a quick Philip of Macedon prequel.

Hey, look at how well it has worked in the Star Wars case!

I don’t understand the “logic” of blaming your bad box office receipts on “dumb” Red Staters.

If the “dumb” failed to come see your movie, doesn’t that imply that your movie was too “good” and too “sophisticated” for them?

And is that not fervently to be desired when one is “serious” “artist” like Oliver Stone?

Just asking…

Jamie Irons

Nov 29, 2004 - 7:47 am 21. DennisThePeasant:

ByronOO

There really isn’t anything bathhouse funny in the film which, given the homo-hype, came as a bit of a surprise. I was expecting serious oily man-flesh and perhaps a “let’s wash each other’s back” scene or two. You’d see Steve Reeves Hercules films there on the bathhouse circuit before you’d see Alexander. Most of the ‘homosexual overtones’ are the result of young, pretty men giving each other very long moist eyed looks…basically it’s about as homosexually charged as the Spongebob Squarepants Movie.

Spartacus and any of the ’50s/’60s Hercules films had a queerer eye than this film…

Percy

There’s a difference between the acting styles of Bela Lugosi and Zsa Zsa Gabor?

And yes, Dawson is funny in a helpless sort of way…but Jolie is simply awesome: she looked Ollie Stone over once and said “I’m gonna make mincemeat outa this turkey.” And you know what? She did.

In retrospect I think Jolie’s performance is a tribute to Marlon Brando. Brando had a habit of eating directors for lunch via amazingly awful performances (Missouri Breaks, for one)…and I think that is what Jolie is doing here.

Either that or she is channelling Rod Steiger.

Nov 29, 2004 - 7:55 am 22. Matt Evans:

*My only regret is that this film wasn’t made about 35 years ago. Had it been, then I could have watched it, in the buff, with my own true first love, a bottle of Wild Turkey and two fat joints of best domestic…just as I viewed Plan 9 From Outer Space.*

Dear god, that imagery may require therapy (considering most of us have seen the pic of DtP floating around)….

I do believe Dennis’s comments have been listed as an O (for OMFG) by the Catholic Film Council.

Nov 29, 2004 - 8:01 am 23. DennisThePeasant:

Matt-

I may not be hot stuff around here or on the bathhouse circuit, but I’m considered very desirable by the sumo wrestling fraternity and their groupies.

How’s that for OMFG?

Nov 29, 2004 - 8:09 am 24. ricpic:

Jeff Harrell,

“Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”

Obligatory, aye?

Alexander was a world-historical figure. To make “gayness” the defining aspect of his significance bespeaks a mind bogglingly skewed mentality.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Nov 29, 2004 - 8:25 am 25. Fausta:

The only interest in this obvious yawner of a movie has been dredged up by the minor controversy over its protagonist’s sexuality.

There’s also the hair: ‘Alexander is full of brilliant highlights, and they’re all in Colin Farrell’s hair,” said the Boston Globe. The Telegraph guy says, “although to judge by his hair – a golden, peroxide quiff that calls to mind a mid-period Bee Gee – you could be forgiven for thinking his mission was to set up a chain of Middle-Eastern hair salons”. There’s even “unreliable sources”: “Unreliable sources say Stone can also expect to pick up support from the Mullet Anti-Defamation League for Colin Farrell’s frank depiction of bi-level hairstyles”. Not to be outshone, the NYT mentions “Colin Farrell, upstaged by an epically bad dye job”.

First of all, who in the Hell actually goes to an Oliver Stone film expecting any level of real quality?

Indeed, particularly after his statements on Cuban dissidents, following his idol-worshiping Castro “documentaries”

Yeah, so-called, right. I was in Soviet Russia for a script in 1983, and I interviewed 20 dissidents in 12 cities. I really got an idea of dissidents that was much rougher than here. These people in Cuba were nothing compared to what I saw in Russia.

Loathsome b*st*rd.

Nov 29, 2004 - 8:49 am 26. DennisThePeasant:

You know, if Ollie Stone had really been on his game he would have made an all male version of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof. Think about it…

Colin Farrell would be fine as ‘Maggie The Cat’. He actually seems to be doing Maggie in Alexander, come to think of it.

Val Kilmer plays ‘Brick’. There’s a natural.

Angelina Jolie could play ‘Big Daddy’ with a southern Transylvanian accent.

And Stone could have added back the original homosexual ‘Brick’/'Skipper’ subplot with a heterosexual twist! Could have even got Matt Damon to play ‘Skipper’.

Then to top it off…the theme song…

…can you guess it? huh? are you ready?

…a remake It’s Raining Men done by Liza Minelli and Bette Midler…

Why the Hell am I not in Hollywood producing films?

Nov 29, 2004 - 9:21 am 27. DennisThePeasant:

And my Cat would do better business in red states…betcha!

Nov 29, 2004 - 9:23 am 28. byrd:

Alexander is the world’s greatest general. His life was fast and furious and short. There probably weren’t five boring minutes in his entire time on this earth. Yet Oliver Stone found two hours of boring.

Now that’s talent!

Nov 29, 2004 - 9:50 am 29. DennisThePeasant:

Byrd

The movie is 3 hours long. Did you leave an hour early?

Nov 29, 2004 - 9:54 am 30. Knucklehead:

One of you culturally aware and astute types here at Roger’s Place has to clue me in… what on earth is gay about a maypole (unless we’re talking about the pre-hijack meaning of the word “gay”).

Nov 29, 2004 - 11:26 am 31. Byron00:

Word on the street is that Stone is in the process of lining up investors for his next film. You need to get in early on deals like this, of course.

The movie promises to be another unflinching, barrier-breaking expose, this one documenting Republican First Lady Mamie Eisenhower’s secret career as a terrifying bull dyke. Mad Mamie’s nocturnal rampages through the pleasure houses of 50s-era 14th Street were, until now, the object of the most successful Secret Service coverup in White House history. Family values indeed! The lid’s about to be blown off this incredibly sordid tale of GOP depravity, and high time.

Watch the announcements in Variety to find out where to send your investment.

Nov 29, 2004 - 11:36 am 32. Robert Schwartz:

John Podhoretz: “Oliver Stone’s Alexander, . . . isn’t just bad. It’s Springtime for Hitler bad. I haven’t guffawed this hard since I saw Airplane for the first time 24 years ago. . . “

Nov 29, 2004 - 11:45 am 33. thibaud:

Dennis,

Spartacus and any of the ’50s/’60s Hercules films had a queerer eye than this film…

As did Patton. George C Scott’s performance verges into camp territory repeatedly. See scenes in which he brandishes his swagger stick, lowers his eyes and and leers at his young aide-de-camp, growling “Toujours de l’audace!”

Nov 29, 2004 - 12:38 pm 34. jerry:

thibaud:

You said: “As did Patton. George C Scott’s performance verges into camp territory repeatedly.”

Certainly true! However, anybody who saw one of Patton’s public performances would tell you that George S. Patton was one of the campyest perfomrers around. Scott got the public Patton down pat. He took off the mask in private.

And buy the way GSP did not carry a swagger stick, he carried a riding crop…now that is camp.

Nov 29, 2004 - 12:48 pm 35. thibaud:

Thanks for the correction, jerry. Can’t say I’m a connoisseur of swish iconography.

Nov 29, 2004 - 12:59 pm 36. DennisThePeasant:

ByronOO-

I am terrified to inform you that I have absolutely no idea of whether you are serious or not.

Nov 29, 2004 - 1:03 pm 37. Matt Evans:

Please refrain from using the terminology “riding crop” lest it induce more stories from Mr. ThePeasant about his winsome fetishes in his younger days…

Here’s a more serious question- when is the last time an Oliver Stone movie actually made money ?

I’m not sure if you folks have had a chance to catch Wretchard’s post on Alexander at Belmont Club but there’s some really interesting comments from his readers regarding Alexander’s life and military achievements. Its somewhat amazing to me that while Alexander’s accomplishments make him an incredibly interesting historical figure (and a much more sinister figure then he is portrayed in many modern histories- he masacred entire cities full of unarmed people), Stone emphasizes man’s sexual preferences and gives him a mother his own age, vamping it up with a snake- its like some Bizarro version of the History Channel.

Here’s hoping Dennis will not have any snake stories in his obviously sizable collection. =)

Nov 29, 2004 - 1:48 pm 38. Fausta:

Byron00, too bad Oliver Stone can’t bring Ethel Merman back from the dead to star in that one!

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:06 pm 39. DennisThePeasant:

Matt-

You’re just begging for it, aren’t you? Every last bit of the fetid, swampy backwaters of my memory and my imagination (hey, like you’d know the difference?)…

Actually, if you really want to get the best out of me, you’re gonna have to dial up Terrye…we have a lime jello and cattle prod routine that qualifies for a NEA grant as performance art.

It is to die for, Sweetie…One, two, three, kick!

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:11 pm 40. DennisThePeasant:

Did someone say Ethel Merman?

There’s no business like show business…

two, three, kick!

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:14 pm 41. Knucklehead:

Here’s hoping Dennis will not have any snake stories in his obviously sizable collection.

Does this mean I can’t share my pink snake story?

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:15 pm 42. DennisThePeasant:

Are we talking about a sizable number of snake stories, or stories about sizable snakes?

One I got, and the other, alas, I ain’t.

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:19 pm 43. Matt Evans:

You know, I never see intellectual discussions of this nature on LGF or Belmont Club. Just one more reason why Roger’s blog brings in all the heavy duty thinkers… !

Pink snakes and lime jello … somewhere Bill Clinton’s ears just perked up.

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:25 pm 44. DennisThePeasant:

Pink snakes and lime jello … somewhere Bill Clinton’s ears just perked up.

Huh. Let’s put on our Ollie Stone tinking caps (tinfoil beanie with battery powered propellor)…

Maybe Bill’s gay and Monica was his beard. Hey, that sounds like a great idea for a movie…

We can get Colin Farrell to play Bill Clinton, Val Kilmer to play Al Gore, Angelina Jolie to play Hilliary Clinton and Alec Baldwin to play Ken Starr, Danny DeVito as Peter Jennings, Susan Saradon as Monica Lewinsky, Vin Diesel as Linda Tripp…Britney Spears as Chelsea Clinton…$150 million and a year and a half.

…it…could…work!…

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:36 pm 45. DennisThePeasant:

two, three, kick…

Nov 29, 2004 - 2:38 pm 46. Rick Ballard:

Vin Diesel needs a bigger part. Need to work Janet Reno into the storyline. I think Paris Hilton would be better for Hillary – more nuance. I also think that Ben Affleck would probably do a better job as Monica – leave out the beard and just make it a simple surprise story with a slight twist. Think ‘The Crying Game’.

Nov 29, 2004 - 4:32 pm 47. richard mcenroe:

DennisThePeasant — Do you have the spotted snake story from the old School of the Americas?

Nov 29, 2004 - 5:08 pm 48. Patrick Tyson:

Some junk:

The last Stone movie to make a lot of money was JFK. Any Given Sunday was probably profitable, but we’re talking motion pictures so it’s hard to tell.

Dennis—From your comments I get the impression that there is nothing in Alexander to compare to the Tommy Lee Jones—Joe Pesci—Kevin Bacon (in Marie Antoinette costume) debauchery of JFK. How un-Stone-like.

According to Will Durant (my favorite source at a moment’s notice,) Alexander had a lot of auburn hair and “helped introduce into Europe the custom of shaving the beard, on the ground that whiskers offered too ready a handle for an enemy to grasp.”

As to his moral character:

Sexually he was almost virtuous, not so much on principle as by preoccupation. His incessant activity, his long marches and frequent battles, his complex plans and administrative burdens, used up his resources, and left him little appetite for love. He took many wives, but as a sacrifice to statesmenship; he was gallant to ladies, but preferred the company of his generals…. He had many of the qualities of a homosexual, and loved Hephaestion to madness; but when Theodorus of Taras offered to sell him two boys of great beauty he sent the Tartine packing, and begged his friends to tell him what baseness of soul he had shown that anyone should make such a proposal to him.

But then this is a movie. After all, Gladiator has in common with history the names of consecutive Roman Emperors and the fact that Gibbon dates the beginning of the decline and fall from the succession of a natural son at the death of Marcus Aurelius. Had events unfolded as they unfold in Gladiator there might never have been a decline and fall. What Gladiator had is actors who look the part, a strong narrative structure and a director who has, on occaision, managed to control himself. Not having seen Alexander, I’ll reserve judgement.

“Gay as a Maypole” works on every level.

Nov 29, 2004 - 7:01 pm 49. DennisThePeasant:

Ballard-

Paris Hilton can’t play Hilliary, she’s going to be a technical advisor.

Brooke Shields is a natural for playing Janet Reno. We’ll have Ben Affleck play Dan Rather, because you always want Susan Saradon in an ‘on her knees’ situation…just on principle, if nothing else.

McEnroe-

Yes.

Patrick-

I’m afraid I missed JFK. Stone films are not really something I ordinarily seek out. Was there Maypole Gayness that escaped The Warren Commission?

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