Davids Medienkritik has excerpts and a link to what he calls The Interview of the Year with Jeffrey Gedmin, director of the Aspen Institute in Berlin. Gedmin says of dining out in Berlin -
“Why has it become so acceptable that – at elegant dinner parties – very distinguished people openly say, ‘I’m not anti-American, but Bush disgusts me and makes me physically sick? He is a war criminal and a real threat to world peace.’ I can only interpret such statements as being partly about Bush and partly about using him as an acceptable cover to bash America.”
According to Gedmin, much of this began with European shame at being dependent on America during the Cold War. There’s a lot more via Medienkritik. And I agree – this is a must read.
UPDATE: More from the Gedmin interview–
Gedmin considers that since 2002 it has been simultaneously the most interesting as well as the worst time to be an American in Berlin. He expressed public support for the war in Iraq in German newspaper columns and in television interviews. In a methodological approach to assessing today’s confused situation, Gedmin believes that vignettes often illuminate it best. They put key issues more in focus than detailed analysis might do.
“As a Catholic I was struck by the amount of virulently anti-Semitic hate letters and email I received. There were many dozens of items. I was called a ‘Jewish war criminal,’ a ‘Jewish pornographer.’ Pardon my language, but more than once, these texts stated that I was a ‘Jew fucker’ or ‘a son of a whore, who should be covered with napalm.’
“During the last two years in Berlin I was publicly insulted, heckled, and refused service in a restaurant because I supported the war to remove Saddam Hussein. Once I was sitting on a bench in Berlin, in front of the famous Adlon Hotel. Three young men recognized me as someone who supported this war, and heckled me from a distance. They were nicely dressed twenty-something youngsters in polo shirts, not skinheads. They said, ‘You’re not wanted here. You don’t belong here. Why don’t you get out of this country?’ It made a deep impression on me.
“The debate about Iraq in Europe generally and in Germany specifically struck me. The German chancellor said that even if the United States acts multilaterally or with a UN mandate, Germany will not participate in the war. One socialist minister in his cabinet, Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin, compared George W. Bush to Adolf Hitler. A leading Social Democratic parliamentarian compared the American ambassador in Berlin to a Soviet one. Two German ministers marched in the streets calling the Americans war criminals and chanting ‘no blood for oil.’
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1. David Thomson:ìThen he said, ‘Can I ask you one question about American policy toward Iraq?’ I replied, ‘Sure, ask anything.’ And in the public space with several people standing around, he asked, ‘It is the Jews, isn’t it?’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He explained, ‘It is the Jews in the United States who are driving the entire Iraq campaign, is it not?’ I was shocked that this could happen in public in 21st-century Germany.î
ì21st-century Germany?î How about the John Kerry presidential campaign? This is merely the conventional wisdom of the national Democratic Party. I personally heard Bob Beckel say exactly the same thing on the Sean Hannity radio program. Kerryís own stepson uttered similar remarks only hours before the election. The Germans are merely echoing many who voted for the Democratic ticket.
Dec 15, 2004 - 12:55 pm 2. WichitaBoy:For what it’s worth, I’ve noticed a definite uptick in anti-Semitism within German newsgroups in the last few months.
If the Germans can convince themselves that the Israelis (i.e., the Jews) are the real Nazis because of their treatment of the Palestinians (or any other cause which happens to lie at hand), or that the Americans are the real Nazis because of Iraq (or Vietnam or whatever), or that George Bush really is Adolph Hitler, then it will assuage their massive guilt and shame for having committed Voelkermord and having given themselves body and soul in thrall to a third-rate tin-pot corporal.
Dec 15, 2004 - 12:58 pm 3. Bruce W.:Plenty of truth ringing in that piece. Essentially, Europe needs to get deep into some serious therapy. While I initially objected to it, the term “Old Europe” seems more and more apt with the passing of time. It’s like an old, angry, guilt-ridden, curmudgeon, blaming the world for his woes.
As far as Germany is concerned, the terms of their WWII surrender should have included a total ban in its government ever voicing an opinion against elimination of a tyrant on the world stage. Perhaps not forever, but for at least as long as the Third Reich was supposed to last.
Dec 15, 2004 - 1:06 pm 4. David Thomson:ìFor what it’s worth, I’ve noticed a definite uptick in anti-Semitism within German newsgroups in the last few months.î
I have also noticed a similar uptick regarding American newsgroups. We still see news stories regarding the Israelis allegedly spying on the United States. No, letís not spend too much time talking about the Germans. We have enough problems right on our own front door. The failed John Kerry campaign is overwhelming evidence that anti-Semitism is rampant in the United States.
Dec 15, 2004 - 1:09 pm 5. TigerHawk:David Thomson is correct. In the months running up to the election I heard numerous theories from “middle-of-the-road” Bush-haters — not traditional lefties — that Jews were somehow responsible for the war in Iraq. I heard these theories from very educated people who would be deeply offended if you suggested that they were racist. I was, frankly, shocked by it, and called people out on it when I heard it. I’m sure that I was privileged to hear these comments because I was seen as reliably Gentile.
On the matter of German anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism, if there is one lesson that the world should have learned from the 20th century, it is that we should not ignore German illusions. Is there any question that Germany has the capacity as a nation to believe and act upon almost any lie? Is there any doubt that Germany has the size and competence to make the world very miserable for those who would oppose the same lies? Never, ever, let a German repeat one of their national myths without calling him on it. The casual belief on the part of good people that “they can’t possibly believe what they say” caused us to ignore the rearmament of Germany in the 1930s until it was too late.
Am I alarmist? Prove to me that Germany can’t do it again.
Dec 15, 2004 - 1:11 pm 6. truepeers:TH, I suppose Germany can do it again, if France lets them; and considering the global fantasies of Chirac, we know the problem to which we must respond is the delusional mind that comes with resentment of one’s seeming lack of centrality – ever had a realistic thought while feeling resentful? No, it’s impossible, you have to snap out of the mood first to reflect realistically on it – quite unlike our ability to reflect seriously about love while feeling love or other positive emotions. Postmodern thought is all about resentment, the one category it can’t deconstruct and won’t admit to valuing.
Here is the last passage from the Gedmin interview: “To counter this requires endless, tireless work of building networks, arguing, and making information available. Through such networks we can provide moral and intellectual solidarity to those in Germany who are pro-American and pro-Israeli. Those who write articles have to be encouraged to speak up. When the Bush administration pursues the right foreign policy, while selling it poorly, private institutions and individuals have to come to their assistance to explain it. The same is true for Israel.”
Whether in Europe or North America, the rise in Judeophobia, anti-Americanism, and the most remarkable hysteria about Bush (a warm individual, great with ordinary people) reminds me of the kind of depressive, manic delusions I felt in the days before I began to get clear of postmodern victimary thinking (not that I was ever very Judeophobic, thank God). What I think we are seeing is a world view crumbling, and it is up to us to put a positive and realistic vision in its place. The kind of networking Gedmin calls for needs to be informed by a thorough critique of victimary thinking. For those who have the time to take this on as a serious project, I would point to the following site: http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu
Dec 15, 2004 - 1:37 pm 7. David Thomson:ìAm I alarmist? Prove to me that Germany can’t do it again.î
We are fortunate that the Germans (my ancestors are mostly German) are too committed to socialism and unlikely to pay the enormous price to compete militarily with the United States. Still, I am appalled that so many Germans are inclined to perceive themselves as victims. Their infatuation with the pure German blood silliness may also be responsible for the overwhelming difficulty of immigrants to be granted citizenship. There are literally numerous third generation Turks who are not able to achieve this honor.
Nonetheless, we need to stop ignoring our own problems. You show me the so-called “‘middle-of-the-road’ Bush-haters– not traditional leftiesî and I will show you those who likely believe that American Jews enticed President Bush to invade Iraq. Isnít Bob Beckel, after all, suppose to be a Democratic party middle-of the roader?
Dec 15, 2004 - 1:48 pm 8. Wallace:Having German and French investors/business partners I have been exposed to some of the attitudes expressed here and in the article though in a more moderate or tacit sense.
In my experience I can only classify my European friends as naive or childlike in their attitudes and opinions about world geopolitics. Like privelaged rich kids from a private school they really have no grasp on the hard reality of life outside of their protected environment. Having been protected internally by their ever increasing “nanny state” government and externally, for the last 50 years, by the big brother with the big stick…the United States they haven’t had to grow up and accept responsibilty for themselves.
It’s quite easy to champion causes like the “downtrodden” Palestinians when you don’t have to do anything about it….or can’t.
Dec 15, 2004 - 1:50 pm 9. lindenen:“Am I alarmist? Prove to me that Germany can’t do it again.”
I think this particular attitude is part of the problem. In truth, any people or person could engage in that sort of behavior. There are really no people or places with a complete history of love and kindness to put it mildly. Man is not a saint.
Most living Germans were not born until after WWII. To spend your whole life constantly being reminded of what your grandparents or parents may have done or did (the unimaginable evil, the photographs, the film footage, the movies, the museums, etc) and being held responsible for it or possibly feeling blamed for it, I can see how after awhile that would begin to feel like an injustice or a slight to you. Afterall, most of the people in Germany didn’t do anything. They weren’t alive. Why should they still be blamed for what happened? Eventually, a chance to shift the burden of blame or responsibility would be mighty tempting, and I don’t think they’d even be aware of what they were doing psychologically. The Israeli/Palestinian situation is perfect for this. It allows them to pose as supporters of the (brown-skinned) underdog (”Look! Ma! We’re not racists!) while alleviating a guilty conscience and abdicating responsibility for the past.
Dec 15, 2004 - 2:06 pm 10. Cosmo:Anti-Americanism has become a fashionable form of bigotry fueled by a relentless, chorus-like demonization of America in elite and state-owned media and by opinion leaders.
With it’s increasing virulence, anti-Americanism has rendered itself nearly useless as a form of measured critique (if it ever was), and has instead become a cynical pose of reflexive sneering at our accomplishments and delight in our shortcomings and misfortunes.
But we dismiss what appears to be human pettiness at our peril. Propaganda works, and no people are more accomplished or experienced at it than Europeans, whose politically-homogeonous “free” press is busy selling the Continent’s latest uptopian scheme — rule by a trans-national nomenklatura — while taking every opportunity to de-legitimize American leadership and authority.
At the beginnning of the 1930’s, I’d wager the average German may have been ambivalent about the Jews, or perhaps mildly or latently anti-Semitic to one degree or another. But what prepared them to accept what started happening to Jews at the end of the 1930’s?
Dec 15, 2004 - 2:07 pm 11. Kyda Sylvester:For what it’s worth, I’ve noticed a definite uptick in anti-Semitism within German newsgroups in the last few months.
I’ve noticed anti-Semitism ticking up for quite some time everywhere but especially in Europe and most alarmingly in Germany. Anti-Semitism and Germany seem to go together like, oh I don’t know, sauer and kraut.
“Neocon” is after all a code word for Jew. In particular the Jew who has morphed from self-respecting liberal to self-loathing conservative.
Frustration always breeds resentment and anger in a superior being who suffers constant oneupsmanship by his perceived inferior. Multiply one by millions and you’ve got a national pathos. I don’t see a solution to this one.
Dec 15, 2004 - 2:40 pm 12. WichitaBoy:Kyda Sylvester,
Frustration always breeds resentment and anger in a superior being who suffers constant oneupsmanship by his perceived inferior. Multiply one by millions and you’ve got a national pathos. I don’t see a solution to this one.
I think a good start would be to make Europe responsible for its own defense. Nicht wahr?
Dec 15, 2004 - 2:50 pm 13. Sun-Tzu:lindenen:
On the one hand, I can see why your average German, born after the Second World War might not particularly feel guilty for the actions of their forebears, and being constantly pounded on it might well evoke the response you note.
Yet, what I find fascinating is how many of the American Left, while “understanding” how the Germans might feel resentful about being held responsible for the actions of parents or grandparents (and therefore being at least around those who perpetrated such evil) are meanwhile appalled that the US has yet to pass reparations to the descendants of slaves.
Germans should not be held responsible for their past, yet Americans should?
It leaves one wondering just what kind of worldview prevails out there….
Dec 15, 2004 - 2:52 pm 14. Coisty:David Thomson – “I have also noticed a similar uptick regarding American newsgroups. We still see news stories regarding the Israelis allegedly spying on the United States.”
So it’s anti-Semitic to report on the recent spy case involving AIPAC? That’s just another example of politically correct nonsense. You’re as bad as the leftists who shout ‘racism’ to avoid having to argue their case.
Wallace – “It’s quite easy to champion causes like the “downtrodden” Palestinians when you don’t have to do anything about it”
Moral Exhibitionism. It’s all about appearing morally superior to others and in the process scoring points with one’s peers. Usually only afflicts upper class white liberals.
Dec 15, 2004 - 3:48 pm 15. Kyda Sylvester:OT and BTW, Roger, I had the privilege of meeting Omar, Mohammed and Jim Hake (among others) yesterday in Palo Alto. The gathering was small which permitted actual conversation. The brothers are every bit as you described. They understandably have been much too busy to spend any time on the blogosphere and were genuinely quite touched when we told them of your heartfelt posts following their visit to your home. It was a singular experience, positive, uplifting, optimistic–one of those encounters remembered for a lifetime.
I asked Jim what if anything aside from money Spirit of America could use. He said that future plans will involve some volunteerism, but for now “just spread the news”. So that’s what I’ve been doing today, spreading the news. Kathleen Parker has a lovely piece at Townhall.com–American spirit takes root in Iraq–that I emailed to everyone on my list along with a personal note about Omar and Mohammed and links to ITM and Spirit of America. Now I’m on my way to make my final Blogger Challenge contribution.
Yesterday I met two women, Republicans, from Marin County. I remarked that I didn’t think there were any Republicans in Marin County. One replied “Why, yes, we meet in a phone booth”. Heh.
Dec 15, 2004 - 3:55 pm 16. Kyda Sylvester:Sorry. American spirit takes root in Iraq
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:01 pm 17. Kyda Sylvester:Sorry. American spirit takes root in Iraq
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:01 pm 18. David Thomson:ìSo it’s anti-Semitic to report on the recent spy case involving AIPAC? That’s just another example of politically correct nonsense. You’re as bad as the leftists who shout ‘racism’ to avoid having to argue their case.î
We should indeed be very suspicious of the recent new stories claiming that Israel is spying on the United States. Zero hard evidence was provided and these articles were premised solely upon rumor and innuendo. One is immediately reminded of the journalistic integrity of the National Enquirer.
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:07 pm 19. someone:truepeers: Are you Eric Gans? I’m a huge admirer of his work.
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:08 pm 20. Kyda Sylvester:Sorry again. Yikes.
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:11 pm 21. asher:The New Republic carried a very good article by Peter Beinart on the desperate state of American liberalism. Unfortunately that same issue carried some other material which rather undercut Beinart’s point.
I wrote a few lines about this post on the decline and fall of The New Republic; but the problem isn’t just at TNR, it’s worldwide, and perhaps especially in Europe. I recently saw an article in Tikkun that I found even more disturbing, but I’ll post on that another time.
Roger, thanks for bringing the Gedmin interview to light.
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:17 pm 22. PeterUK:This generation of Germans is trying to get out from under the cloud of odium attached to their nation.
There have been campaigns to get the allies to appologise for the attacks on German cities,”We are all guilty is the cry”.Well, no we are not,nobody outside Germany wanted the filth that was poured onto the World by the Nazi Party.
Europe bent over backwards to avoid war,all that did was spur the crazed little corporal on to more outrages.
Nobody who has seen newsreels of the Nuremberg rallies can be in any doubt that the Nazis had many supporters and they were German.
The present generation is not to blame for the evil deeds of their grandparents but projection is not the way to salvation.
Dec 15, 2004 - 4:17 pm 23. Terrye:I agree with Wichita Boy, let them pay for their own defence. I am tired of of messing with them. Tired of their insults and their prejudices and their sense of entitlement. To Hell with them.
Can you imagine the reaction if Americans began treating Europeans like this? They come here and by and large are treated with curtesy and respect and yet Americans are expected to answer to them and tolerate their bad behavior. Well maybe they don’t need to come here either. Like I said imagine the reaction of the world in general if we responded in kind.
In truth Europeans are not that stupid. They know Saddam was a madman and a dictator. They know about the resolutions and the cease fire agreement he broke and on and on, but when you have Americans like Moore out there we should not be surprised that Europeans would react like they did.
Fine, if and when Iraq becomes a decent place to live the Germans can explain tot he Iraqis why they continued to sell Saddam chemicals even after they knew damn well what he was doing with them. They can also explain tot he Iraqis why they thought they would be better off if Saddam and his psycho offspring continued defying not only the UN and the US but every human rights group on the planet. They can always say they did not know what was happening in Iraq and that they were just following orders.
Dec 15, 2004 - 5:14 pm 24. truepeers:Someone,
No, Iím not EG, I just think like him. I have taken him as a positive role model, you know, though I hope I part company somewhere.
Eric writes in his last book, regarding the postmodern desire to identify with the victim, that ìwe are forced to admit that we have sinned from the beginning in coveting the victimís central position. The end of the age of sacrifice is the beginning of the age of publicity; the victimís figurality… becomes the object of a new kind of desire.î Not being a happily postmodern, Jerry Springer, type, Gans seems equally averse to both sacrifice and publicity. Yet I find it a little odd that neither he nor his students seem, from where Iím isolated, to find it any way appropriate to seek any significant publicity for his ideas, however much they know that their respect for the marketplace should not preclude them from resisting its various failings and discounting. On the other hand, it must be tough for them trying to get along in academe. So, I thought Iíd have a go at seeing how my take off of Gansian ideas flies with intelligent participants of the blogosphere – my own little test of an originary hypothesis.
Please stick around and let me know how it goes.
Dec 15, 2004 - 5:24 pm 25. truepeers:Someone, if you want to chat, you can reach me at truepeers@gmail.com
Dec 15, 2004 - 5:33 pm 26. Cybrludite:Maybe I’m just extra cranky from a sinus infection, but as far as I’m concerned they can hate us all they want. So long as they fear. We kicked the snot out of them twice last century, and we can easily do it again if they get too uppity. What was it that Dennis Miller had to say about Germany during the reunification? “If anyone has a reason these two shouldn’t be joined, speak now or forever hold your peice… in the ready position with the safety OFF.”
Dec 15, 2004 - 5:44 pm 27. Terrye:Cyb:
I had a converstaion with a German lady who has lived in this country of and on for over 20 years.
She said Americans were soft and did not dress well, raise their chidren right or get out enough. She also said we were the offspring of crooks. That is how we came to be here.
I told her we might be crooks, but these crooks had managed to kick her countrymen’s ass all over Europe and could not doubt do it again if the need arose.
That shut her right up.
Dec 15, 2004 - 6:00 pm 28. Katherine:Terrye,
Ah the Europeans, they are so polite and sophisticated, arenít they?
On my visits to Old Country, a part of the allegedly more astute bit of Europe known as ìNew Europeî I have been always subjected to lectures on the subject of the inferiority of America and her citizens. We are supposed to be moral, intellectual, and spiritual bankrupts, shallow fools ignorant of history with no native talent. It is commonly believed that the only reason we achieve anything is that ìpeople from all over the world come and do things for usî (a feature, I should say), and the only remembered bit of American history is Vietnam and conquest of the Wild West (translation: failure and murder). I may be unfortunate in that my family and acquaintances are members of so-called ìintelligentsiaî so their views may tend toward ìEuropean elitistsî, but I suspect that these views are more widespread. I remember the best ever said about Americans was that they were well meaning fools.
But nothing beats my experience with German-Canadian doctor whom I met last fall. This guy was literally dripping with hatred toward America. He could not carry a conversation on a neutral subject without gratuitous insults and bigoted remarks about Americans. At one point he declared that America was making his physically sick. He was particularly outspoken on the subject of citizens of what is lately known as JesusLand. And yet he was doing his internship at – Yale. I have never met anybody quite like him before.
So, as far as I am concerned, Europe can start looking after her own affairs. Let them continue with the last socialist experiment of the 20th century, the EU. Yes. it is a pity that we will not have much needed economic competitors across Atlantic, but the world is large and Asia looks better every day. I typically wish everybody everywhere happiness and prosperity and believe that the richer the world, the richer are all of us. But if Europeans absolutely insist on screwing themselves, why should we interfere? I just wish that we stopped pouring all the taxpayersí money into that rathole. In the end, it will probably serve both sides better.
Dec 15, 2004 - 6:58 pm 29. richard mcenroe:The last time a German said anything about an American president we had to pay attention to, it was “Please don’t hurt us, Mr. Truman…”
Dec 15, 2004 - 7:56 pm 30. Coisty:David Thomson – “We should indeed be very suspicious of the recent new stories claiming that Israel is spying on the United States”
Why? Ever heard of Jonathan Pollard?
David Thomson – “Zero hard evidence was provided and these articles were premised solely upon rumor and innuendo.”
How do you know? The investigation is ongoing. Just over a week ago the FBI seized material at AIPAC’s offices in Washington.
Incidentally here’s tonight’s late breaking story http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/515111.html
“Pentagon demands dismissal of Defense Ministry official”
Dec 15, 2004 - 8:06 pm 31. JK Ribera:I don’t understand your reference, Coisty. The link above about the conflict between the Pentagon the Israeli Defense Ministry has nothing to do with the current spy case. Perhaps you have a problem with Israel in general.
Dec 15, 2004 - 8:20 pm 32. Coisty:“I don’t understand your reference, Coisty. The link above about the conflict between the Pentagon the Israeli Defense Ministry has nothing to do with the current spy case”
I just happened to hear of the story as I was typing my response. It’s another dispute between the US and Israel and so is similar. (I wonder if David Thomson will accuse the Pentagon of anti-Semitism?) The super patriots here who are so quick to attack all Europeans and other “allies” who are seen as insuffiently loyal to the US suddenly change their tune when Israel doesn’t behave like a good ally. Israel shouldn’t get a pass where Germany and France don’t.
” Perhaps you have a problem with Israel in general.”
No, just people like you. Would you like to take this opportunity to accuse me of being an anti-Semitic Nazi or Hamas supporter? After all, I just suggested that Israel might occasionally be wrong.
I come from a neighbourhood in N Ireland – a European! Obviously a Nazi! – that literally had the Israeli flag on street lamps to show solidarity with the Israeli people – Catholic areas fly Palestinian flags to show their “anti-colonialist” sympathies. I get considerable joy from seeing the way Israel deals with terrorists and wish the rest of the West was the same. But I see the US, not Israel, as the leader of the West and the last hope to save it. So when there is a dispute between the US and Israel I’m almost always going to be on the US side. How about you?
Dec 15, 2004 - 9:20 pm 33. lindenen:It’s bizarre how Europe, the US and Israel seem to be playing out their visions of society on an international level: belief in the individual and representative democracy versus collectivization and rule by a chosen (bureaucratic) elite. I’m not sure where Israel stands when it comes to views of society, but I wonder whether they’d be aligned with Europe in their view if it wasn’t for the terrorism.
Dec 15, 2004 - 9:43 pm 34. Occam's Beard:A common misconception. Actually, historically, Germany was one of the least anti-Semitic of the major countries in Europe, which is why so many Jews settled there.
Spain was probably the worst (the Inquisition), followed by Portugal, with France close behind. England/UK had little history in that regard, largely by virtue of keeping Jews out, for the most part.
During WWII the French assisted in rounding up Jews with so zest that even the Nazis were amazed.
Germany came to the fore in anti-Semitism because the political humiliation of WWI and the subsequent economic collapse embittered many. The Nazis managed to focus that resentment toward the Jews and whip up garden variety anti-Semitism into a hurricane. But prior to then, Germany had not been particularly noteworthy for anti-Semitism.
Dec 15, 2004 - 10:01 pm 35. truepeers:Coisty,
Being part Jewish and part Ulster Orange (the family left in the 19thC.) in ancestry, and always wishing to imagine similarities between the two, I was struck by your comment re the Israeli flag on lamp posts. Do you know how that started? Was it in reaction to the Palestinian flag or did it start with the Protestants?
Dec 15, 2004 - 11:22 pm 36. David Thomson:ì(I wonder if David Thomson will accuse the Pentagon of anti-Semitism?)î
I do indeed charge the Democratic party faction of the Pentagon—and the CIA— with anti-Semitism. Many of the generals supporting John Kerry were Israeli bashers.
“But prior to then, Germany had not been particularly noteworthy for anti-Semitism.”
So much so, that many German Jews dropped their guard. Until Hitler came onto the scene, the country was mostly a safe haven for Jews. The French and the Poles were far more anti-Semitic.
Dec 16, 2004 - 3:20 am 37. richard mcenroe:Occam’s Beard ó Jews in England were “tolerated” from medieval times because they were a readily extortable source of capital for various kings; when they weren’t being robbed… not so much. Read Christopher Marlowe’s The Jew of Malta. Even into the 19th century, they faced antisemitic restrictions on owning property, voting and holding public office. Disraeli had to abandon his Jewish heritage to have a political career, but even then much of the opposition to his leadership came from resentment of “that upstart little Jew.”
Dec 16, 2004 - 6:57 am 38. M. Simon:Another German weighs in on the defects of Europe.
Dec 16, 2004 - 7:07 am 39. Knucklehead:I thought I’d just look up some data for the heck of it. The beef is always somewhere and normally data will help discover it.
What is it the Euros “approve of” and “disapprove of”?
It would seen they approve of modern economies and have a strong preference for extensive welfare systems. Nationalized health care and education are a big plus in their eyes. They are at least tolerant of immigration. They seem to have an affinity for “multicuralism” which, it seems to me, could be well defined as ethinic and even religious “diversity” and “tolerance”. They like nice things like low infant mortality, poverty, and unemployment rates and high literacy rates.
On the disapprove of side of the ledger they seem to have a visceral dislike of militaries that can be used for anything beyond basic defense. Clearly they consider privatized health care and education systems to be loathesomely primitive or something similar.
If I give the sick bigots the benefit of the doubt and assume it is Israel and Israelis they hate, rather than being yet another round of would be perpetrators and appeasers of anti-semitic violence, I would expect to find some sort of empirical basis for their their intense loathing of Israel and preference for all things Arab.
I went and looked at some basic data for Israel and her immediate neighbors: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza Strip, and the West Bank. I don’t see anything in the factbook that describes the level of nationalization or socialization of either the health care or educational systems. I had to rely on infant mortality, life expectancy, and death rates to make some judgement of the “quality” of the health care system and literacy rates to judge the “quality” of the educational system. I used Germany and France as example Euro countries.
Just some of the things that jump out at me:
In economic terms Israel is pretty clearly a more “modern” economy than any of its Middle Eastern neighbors. It is larger, more diversified, and while not at Euro levels as far as per-capita purchasing power and distribution numbers go than any of its neighbors. Israel is significantly closer to Euro values in unemployment rates and economic growth rates (i.e, slower growth and lower unemployment rates than the “developing world”). It would seem that the Euros would approve of Israel’s economic model moreso than it does of other ME economic models.
In health terms Isreal does not match Euro standards for infant mortality (but is MUCH closer to Euro standards than its neighbors – Israel has less than double France and Germany rates whereas the other ME countries have anywhere from roughly 4 to nearly 7 times the Euro rate). Israeli life expectancy is at Euro levels and significantly better than its neighbor. Interestingly Israel and the other ME countries have lower death rates than the Euros which seems counterintuitive to me but, hey, I’m a knucklehead. All in all it would seem that measures of health care would suggest that Israel would be thought of more favorably than the other ME countries.
Literacy for Israel (and Jordan) seems to be at or near enough to Euro rates and way above the other ME countries. Israel gets the edge in education it would seem to me.
In terms of ethnic and religious diversity Israel is far more diverse both ethnically and religiously than its neighbors except for Lebanon and more ethnically diverse than Germany and very similar to France if we switch “Jewish” for “Roman Catholic”. The multicultis, it seems, should prefer Israel over its neighbors.
In terms of military spending as a % of GDP, this is all over the map with the Euros at the low end, Egypt and the US being middling, Syria and Israel setting the higher end of the bar for “normal” and Jordan being a wild-eyed outrider (20+%!). Based upon military spending the Euros should dislike everyone but the Euros and certainly should favor Israel’s neigbors over Israel. The same applies, it seems to me, if we consider defensive vs. offensive action. Israel has waged a very aggressive defense militarily but its neighbors have waged pretty aggressive offenses and lousy defenses. This would seem a wash, all things considered with the exception, perhaps, that the IDF can be considered and effective and powerful military whereas its neighbors can’t.
There doesn’t seem to be much of a good reason for the Euros to hate Israel in particular over any other ME country and some good reasons that would suggest they should like Israel better than other ME countries. The Euros seem to claim it is the Palestinian situation but nobody’s hands seem clean as far as that goes. It doesn’t seem enough to justify passionate hatred and constant condemnation.
Are there other factors at work? Well, Israel and the US (which are the two countries and peoples Euros love to hate) are both heavily populated by people (or their ancestors) who fled Europe during various famines and religous pograms and political upheavals and wars and the like. Both received a large number of the Jews that the Euros tried to kill and still seem to hate. Both spend, by Euro standards, way too much on their militaries and both are at the upper edge of the spectrum in military effectiveness and capability.
I believe those things, combined with European false-sophistication, combine to explain (not excuse!) modern Euro anti-semitism and anti-americanism. The Israelis and Americans are largely people the Europeans tried to get rid of. (Obviously they tried to “get rid” of the Jews in much more disgusting and reprehensible ways than they did the other ethnic groups that wound up fleeing to America.) In both cases those unwanted people succeeded quite well by any standards including Euro standards. That must irk the heck out of them when they sit in the dark with their bigotries and fears. In both cases they can latch on to something “awful” the unwanted did – for Americans it is the treatment of Native Americans and for the Israelis it is the “Palestinians”. This allows them to rationalize their bigotries and fears.
When all is said and done, however, the real explanation is they are sick bleepin’ bigots.
Dec 16, 2004 - 9:13 am 40. thibaud:Gedmin is a noble and heroic man. But why is it that the charge to explain and promote the administration’s Iraq policy is being led by a solitary private citizen? Where’s the Foreign Service? We still have a diplomatic corps in Germany, don’t we?
For that matter, where the hell has Colin Powell been these last three years?
Dec 16, 2004 - 10:33 am 41. Katherine:“When all is said and done, however, the real explanation is they are sick bleepin’ bigots.”
Amen.
Dec 16, 2004 - 11:13 am 42. thibaud:“I remember passing the American embassy on Unter den Linden and seeing a sign hanging out there for weeks from protesters, which read: ‘Mr. Bush, remember Nueremberg. Death by hanging.’ It leaves me to believe that part of this debate about Iraq – and maybe much of it – had to do more with containing the United States than with whether Saddam Hussein should be removed.”
Bingo. The EU Three Dwarves’ errand to Tehran is motivated by the same wish. The goal of these sham “negotiations” is not to contain Iran but to contain the warmongering US hegemon.
The Euros clearly would much prefer the prospect of a nuclear Iran that menaces Israel and gives them trade plums to the prospect of a non-nuclear Iran contained by sanctions and the aggressive application of US military might.
Dec 16, 2004 - 11:27 am 43. Knucklehead:Thibaud,
In that time there have been a few US Secretaries of State. I cannot answer why all these SecState’s have failed to improve the European understanding of US policy or the European view of Americans in general. I suspect that there is nothing that can be done. They’re growing hatred is not rational.
Here’s a list of Secdef’s since 1977:
Name: Henry A. Kissinger
Appointment: Sep 21, 1973
Entry on Duty: Sep 22, 1973
Termination of Appointment: Jan 20, 1977
Note: Served concurrently as Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs until Nov 3, 1975.
Name: Cyrus Vance
Appointment: Jan 21, 1977
Entry on Duty: Jan 23, 1977
Termination of Appointment: Apr 28, 1980
Name: Edmund Sixtus Muskie
Appointment: May 8, 1980
Entry on Duty: May 8, 1980
Termination of Appointment: Jan 18, 1981
Name: Alexander Meigs Haig, Jr.
Appointment: Jan 22, 1981
Entry on Duty: Jan 22, 1981
Termination of Appointment: Jul 5, 1982
Name: George P. Shultz
Appointment: Jul 16, 1982
Entry on Duty: Jul 16, 1982
Termination of Appointment: Jan 20, 1989
Name: James Addison Baker, III
Appointment: Jan 25, 1989
Entry on Duty: Jan 25, 1989
Termination of Appointment: Aug 23, 1992
Name: Lawrence S. Eagleburger
Appointment: Dec 8, 1992
Entry on Duty: Dec 8, 1992
Termination of Appointment: Jan 19, 1993
Note: Commissioned during a recess of the Senate. Served as Acting Secretary of State, Aug 23-Dec 8, 1992.
Name: Warren M. Christopher
Appointment: Jan 20, 1993
Entry on Duty: Jan 20, 1993
Termination of Appointment: January 17, 1997
Name: Madeleine Korbel Albright
Appointment: January 17, 1997
Entry on Duty: January 23, 1997
Termination of Appointment: January 19, 2001
Name: Colin L. Powell
Appointment: January 20, 2001
Entry on Duty: January 20, 2001
Termination of Appointment:
Dec 16, 2004 - 11:30 am 44. Knucklehead:I botched the heck outta my html in that last post. Oh well.
Dec 16, 2004 - 11:32 am 45. thibaud:knuck, I recall during the height of the hysteria around the Cruise missiles in 1982-84 that Ambassador Richard Burt, a German-speaking career diplomat, made a good impression on the Germans and advocated successfully for the Reagan admin’s policies.
Having been strongly supported by Helmut Schmidt, those policies were an easier sell than the Iraq war, granted. But I’m struck by the complete silence of our Europe-based diplomats. Where are the signed OpEd pieces, the TV and radio appearances?
What the f*** has happened to our diplomatic corps that they view it as acceptable to cease advocating for America? I have more respect for diplomats who resign and take up Bush-bashing than those who quietly bash Bush and remain in their posts.
Dec 16, 2004 - 11:50 am 46. Pat Curley:Again the template that the Left uses to judge people/regimes/countries is that of oppressor/oppressed. Israel is seen as the oppressor, the Palestinians as the oppressed. Ditto with the US and the Iraqis, the US and Europe, etc. These folks are not deep thinkers.
On a tangentially related topic, I was rather amused at this article in the Denver Post today about the “Merry Christmas” controversy. The columnist, probably unthinking, proposed this horrific possibility:
“But imagine if Jews were the majority and the rest of us had to pass a “Happy Hanukkah” sign on the way into the City and County Building.”
No doubt she thought this a particularly effective means of dealing with the Christian right: Appeal to their anti-Semitism!
Dec 16, 2004 - 11:56 am 47. Occam's Beard:Richard,
You’re absolutely right. In fact, Edward I banished the Jews from England in 1290, to which they only returned to some extent under Cromwell. My point was that while none of the European countries had (or has) a squeaky clean record, until the Nazis gained influence Germany was not an outlier in anti-Semitism.
Dec 16, 2004 - 12:27 pm 48. truepeers:“When all is said and done, however, the real explanation is they are sick bleepin’ bigots.”
Yes, I think it’s easy to look too deeply in the empirical data in search of rational explanations for hatred. There is a constant back and forth between imagination and reality, but ultimately our resentments are worked out on a symbolic level that sometimes appears to correlate directly with economic and political developments, but often the relationship is not apparent, statistically or logically. The only meaningful synthesis happens in the individual mind, which often does not dwell on the empirical data. It is perhaps a question of what innovative ìwho are we?î questions and answers come to the fore, and what established prejudices can be maintained in the face of socioeconomic and political developments. So, how do the Europeans see themselves? There has been much talk here about Eurosocialism. But part of their problem with America, as also noted, is their sense of their aristocratic and romantic legacy.
Now that the warrior and hunting caste has largely disappeared, this is largely the kind of aristocracy where one aspires to serve the people, to be a generous, paternalistic, big man, or where one aspires to escape into an independent sufficiency, as in a ìdemocracyî where everyone gets to be an aristocrat in their properly circumscribed sphere of influence. Imagine my distaste, last summer, when I was at a local winery and in came some Danes who had been out hiking in the hills; they came in to get relief from the heat and they stood there, sweaty, no shirts, practically naked, striking poses of esthetic discernment and rugged, free-spirited, individuality as they poured back the free samples. Imaginatively conquering the wild west today must be a bit of a confusing game for them, poor chaps ñ in my eyes, and I wondered about the completely straight, polite, faces of the humble women who served them – they canít quite make the transition from sportsman to connoisseur in the blink of an eye, without making fools of themselves. But then the west has always been a tough game for Euro aristocrats, though some have played it and prospered here.
Now there are of course some Americans who aspire to the predominant Euro notions of aristocracy. But consider a man like Pres. W, west Texas gladhandler. Here the ivy league patrimony is discounted in an aristocracy of the true democratic spirit that – once his faith has resurrected the fallen youth – overrules the aristocracy of romantic distinction, as it rarely does in Europe. The present hatred of America is in good part a hatred of a nation that can elect a G.W. Bush – who must be portrayed as an evil oligarch trading oil for blood, in order to keep the anti-market myth alive – as opposed to, say, a Chirac. Since many Europeans, especially the media, educational, and political elites, have little idea how they would garner self-respect in a more democratic and market-driven society, they resist it. We must see them pitted between their understanding of the aristocratic spirit, and what it gives the people ñ a bureaucratic, social democracy. They will push this tension until they reach the extreme possibilities of Brusselsí bureaucratic leadership, when it will crack under the resentments it generates.
But then it will not be enough simply to go back to the old nationalisms (though that will be part of the answer), kick out the immigrants who do the work and still manage to reproduce themselves, and lose the common market. Sooner or later they will have to learn to make that market more democratic and question the romantic legacy that stops them from doing so. They will only solve their unassimilated immigrant problem by becoming more like Americans, by having a more generous self-conception, and one not simply dictated by pc regulations. Perhaps that is why they hate Americans so: on some level they know they must learn to be more like them, yet only by building up a head of hate towards their resented double ñ W – can they learn to transcend the tension in an innovation that makes them like us, but still themselves. Vive la difference.
Dec 16, 2004 - 1:44 pm 49. Knucklehead:So why do Euro governments tolerate growing bigotry against Israel/Jews and seem to have no end of sympathy for Arab despots and zero sympathy for the plight of Arab people? Perhaps the data can help us there.
Israel:
Oil – production: 80 bbl/day (2001 est.)
Oil – consumption: 260,000 bbl/day (2001 est.)
Oil – proved reserves: 1.92 million bbl (1 January 2002)
Egypt:
Oil – production: 816,900 bbl/day (2004 est.)
Oil – consumption: 562,000 bbl/day (2001 est.)
Oil – proved reserves: 3.308 billion bbl (2004)
Syria:
Oil – production: 522,700 bbl/day (2004 est.)
Oil – consumption: 265,000 bbl/day (2001 est.)
Oil – proved reserves: 2.4 billion bbl (2004)
Iran:
Oil – production: 3.804 million bbl/day (2004 est.)
Oil – consumption: 1.277 million bbl/day (2001 est.)
Oil – proved reserves: 94.39 billion bbl (2004)
Iraq:
Oil – production: 2.2 million bbl/day; note – prewar production was 2.8 million bbl/day (2004 est.)
Oil – consumption: 460,000 bbl/day (2001 est.)
Oil – proved reserves: 113.8 billion bbl (2004)
Just to list out a few. The natural gas numbers are similarly interesting.
It couldn’t be that the Eurocratic governments are fully willing to trade the nation of Israel and the lives of Israelis, not to mention the lives of Arabs, to try and maintain despots with whom they can cut deals and who aren’t likely to promote economic liberalization and modernization (i.e, oil consumption), is it? They wouldn’t pay Other People’s Blood for Oil, would they?
Dec 16, 2004 - 2:57 pm 50. truepeers:Knucklehead, I don’t want to deny the importance of such data in helping us understand the often rational rationalizations for what people believe and do. Such data is essential, but more applicable in prescriptive applications or decision making, than in determining fundamental motivations. Our search for the latter leads us, if we let it, towards paradoxes of self-understanding, not to any supreme data set that gives us all the answers without our needing to make the fateful decision. As you imply, ultimately our decisions are moral and ethical, however rationalized.
Because the Jew has always been a problem for Euro-Christian ethics and morality, it is not at all inconceivable to me that the Europeans, wanting oil, will help the Arabs, Persians, etc. destroy Israel. But if all the Jews are driven into the sea, do you think the Euros will be able to give up their long traditions of Judeophobia? Do you think that if the Nazis had succeeded in wiping Jews from the earth, that they would have been able to forget their antisemitism and still undertand themselves as Nazis, let alone Germans? Sure they would have found new enemies, but ideas about Jews would have remained essential to understanding where they came from. Like the “antisemitism without Jews” found today in parts of eastern Europe, such resentmens might seem irrational to observers with hard numbers; yet such would remain if Nazi-German-western identities were to have a raison d’etre.
It is possible that, over time, antisemites may increasingly learn to grasp this paradox, that they cannot escape from remembering the scenes on which their resentments are defined, no matter how many they kill, and so decide it is better for their morale to accept the Jews for what they are and live with them, and urge their arab partners do too. But that will take moral courage if the need for oil gets fierce. Maybe we need to remind them where moral courage comes from. This will mean discussing our shared ethical, or religious, history.
Dec 16, 2004 - 4:27 pm 51. Knucklehead:truepeers,
I’m not placing too much emphasis on data – more or less just poking around – individual people behave completely irrationally and can do so in very large groups. Modern western governments, however, generally have some calculated reasons for the things they do.
Even if Europeans managed to rid themselves of the hated Jews and Israel they would conjure new and hidden Jews out of thin air. They’d simply find reasons to acuse people of being perfidous Jews.
Dec 16, 2004 - 5:14 pm 52. Coisty:truepeers – “Coisty,
Being part Jewish and part Ulster Orange (the family left in the 19thC.) in ancestry, and always wishing to imagine similarities between the two, I was struck by your comment re the Israeli flag on lamp posts. Do you know how that started? Was it in reaction to the Palestinian flag or did it start with the Protestants?”
I grew up in the 70s when IRA terrorism was a daily, even hourly, event, and there was tremendous frustration in the Protestant population regarding the government response – or lack thereof. Loyalist vigilantes/terrorists would retaliate, often randomly, against Catholics and I remember the consensus being if our government responded the way the Israelis did to the PLO there wouldn’t be these Protestant vigilante/terrorists taking the law into their own hands. Amongst Protestants there was always a feeling of kinship towards Israelis due to the similarity of our situations – outnumbered by our enemies with the smug fashionable people who dominated the world media blaming us even when we were the victims of bombings. When you are under siege in a hostile world liberalism is a luxury you can’t afford.
I suppose the Calvinism of slightly over half the Protestant population may also have played a part as it has historically been more friendly to Jews than Catholicism. Irish nationalist support for the Germans in two world wars might also have contributed to the Protestant pro-Israel sentiment: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Dec 16, 2004 - 6:25 pm 53. lindenen:Curley, that article is such crap. I loved the quote you posted though.
“But imagine if Jews were the majority and the rest of us had to pass a “Happy Hanukkah” sign on the way into the City and County Building.”
Is it so hard to think to oneself, “well, I don’t celebrate Hanukkah, but I hope everyone else has a happy one?”
Dec 16, 2004 - 7:29 pm 54. Knucklehead:Lindenen,
What a great way to look at things. People get themselves lathered up about stuff when they really should just Let It Freakin’ Be. I’m just venting here but this is one of my pet peeves and I’m always fighting myself not to get all lathered up about people getting themselves lathered up.
Once upon a time I was at a Christmas party that seemed to be, by all measures I judge such things, going just wonderfully. People were yacking away and having a grand old time. One of the guests had parked himself at a piano and was clanging out Christmas caroles and a bunch of other people had gathered around and were singing. I happened to park my fat arse to just soak it in and enjoy when I notice the guy next to me looks none too happy. Hey, yo, wassup? He proceeds to splat out a long littany of complaints about how the guy at the piano plays like crap and how he hates Christmas caroles and how Christmas has been ruined and yaddayaddafreakinyadda.
And it isn’t uncommon. I’ve been doing Yet Another Knucklehead’s Unscientific Research Project trying to figure out why so many people are so freakin’ torqued up about Christmas and either want it killed outright or converted to so a secular holiday. I started out with the theory that such people were radical secularists or atheists. Some are. But as far as I’ve been able to discern the more I investigate the bulk of it is just pettiness. They’re pissed off because their favorite radio stations are playing too much Christmas music. They’re pissed off ’cause they can’t go shopping without seeing all the Christmas stuff. They find the lights and blow up Grinches tacky. Well, too freakin’ bad. Get over it. Its 30 freakin’ days and you’ll live through it.
Why do so many people find misery in other people’s joy? If Christmas is ruined it’s been ruined for a long freakin time and it ain’t coming back. Get over it. If singing caroles makes some people feel good and they don’t give a rat’s butt if they don’t sing particularly well and the piano man is a hacker, why should you? Wear earplugs, move to the other side of the room, go home, learn to ignore, do something besides sit and be miserable because other people are joyous. If Hannukah or Kwanzi or Christmas or the Druid Dance of the Virgins draws some people together to find a common cause to smile and laugh and, heaven forbid, sing, let it be.
Sorry, /vent.
Dec 17, 2004 - 6:34 am 55. richard mcenroe:Lindenen ó “But imagine if Jews were the majority and the rest of us had to pass a “Happy Hanukkah” sign on the way into the City and County Building.”
Because, in the end, you have must remember, it is all about Jewish oppression of the rest of the world. After all, there are so many examples of it throughout history. Richelieu and Mazarin were Hassidic rabbis, the Founding Fathers were premature Zionists, Charles Martel was secretly a Sharon on his mother’s side, Custer was a Galitzianer…
Dec 17, 2004 - 6:46 am 56. Knucklehead:And another darned thing! (I’m in one of my funks.)
Just this morning I was subjected to Yet Another BDS sufferer pissing and moaning that that he’d heard a nearby auto assembly plant was closing. “They’re lying to us about the economy! If the economy is so good 1200 people wouldn’t be losing their jobs!”
That plant has been closing since I was a kid. And each time it’s been {Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush}’s fault and each time the “reason” was “they’re lying to us about the economy!”
I don’t wish unemployment on anyone. Its always sad when people lose their jobs. But dangit it all, it ain’t POTUS’s job to make sure that every American keeps their job until such time as they don’t want it anymore. If the plant closes this time it’s because it’s time for the plant to close. “They” may or may not be “lying to us about the economy!”, but there are reasons other than lies that plants close and people lose jobs.
Dec 17, 2004 - 6:51 am 57. jerry:Knucklehead:
I have been out of pocket and have missed a great thread but I do want to give you my take on where Christmas should go.
As a [underperforming] Christian who also has Jewish ancestors [ain't I multi-cultural] I would love to see Christmas de-institutionalized. Why? Because it’s my holiday! I no longer want the secular/non religious world simultaneously to exploit and denigrate my faith and practices. Let’s end the practice of giving a free day off to non-believers.
Treating Christmas as a private religious holiday will have positive effects on the non-believing portion of the population. For one thing, it will spare the secularist from having to troop through malls looking for gifts. It will have a salutary effect on the economy by better spreading purchases over the entire year.
I remember how my Eastern Orthodox friends celebrated a very holy Christmas season when they were still on the old calendar. They had no problem taking the day off as annual leave. That is the least sacrificial action a Christian could do. I am tempted to go farther then merely ending the Federal Christmas Day holiday and recommending we celebrate the day on the Julian Calendar, i.e., Jan 7. That would certainly detach the Christmas from the secular world.
One more thing, when I say end the Federal Holiday, I don’t mean add an additional one to make up for it. It should be a net loss. So I say to you secular humanists you have no right to a freebie that you do not accept.
In the meantime Merry Christmas to all, and a belated Happy Hanukah too. As for this Holiday holiday, I do not know thee.
Dec 17, 2004 - 7:16 am 58. richard mcenroe:PeterUK ó The present generation of Germans has supported abundant evil around the world on their own account.
Dec 17, 2004 - 7:21 am 59. Knucklehead:Geeze, Jerry! Yet another radical quasi-theocrat looking to contort the world to fit his personal conversion experience formed from some perssonalized mythology narrative conjured from an imaginary time capsule. You conservatives are all alike!
And Merry Christmas to you – from an unbeliever who wishes all y’all believers, “underperforming” or otherwise, whatever measure of joy (or sadness or whatever) y’all’s holidays call for. And getchergrubbymitts off my day off
If you prefer to celebrate on Jan 7, make yourself happy.
I’ll survive parking farther away than I’d prefer, walking farther than I’d prefer, standing in line longer than I’d prefer, and being nearly blinded by lights everywhere I turn. I find that the tic I develop from hearing 3,000 renditions of I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Clause is generally cured by a decent dose of non-French bubbly on New Year’s eve. My compensation is the, perhaps imagined, thread of human good-will and warmth winding its way through all the commercialized nonsense and trumped up animosities. That and the annual renewal of my sweater collection.
/sick-sense of humor
Dec 17, 2004 - 8:26 am