Commentary’s Davi Bernstein emailed to alert me (and therefore you) to Norman Podhoretz’s new essay “The War Against World War IV,” which will appear in that magazine’s February print edition, but has just been posted online. Norman, as many will recall, already wrote what I think is the defining essay on the War on Terror, which he considers World War IV: “World War IV: Why It Started, What It Means and Why We Have To Win“.
I have work to do and was going to save Norman’s new essay for later, but I read the first few paragraphs and just kept going. Podhoretz’s prose has a way of doing that to me and to many others. He has always written — and obviously still does in his seventies — with a clarity and directness that I envy and admire. This essay is a superb tour d’horizon of the War on Terror, World War IV, call it what you will, as it stands at this moment. I’m sure future historians will be turning to it. There’s page after page of fascinating detail and summary, but the crux of the matter is here:
Furthermore, facing a conflict that may well go on for three or four decades, Americans of this generation are called upon to be more patient than “the greatest generation” needed to be in World War II, which for us lasted only four years; and facing an enemy even more elusive than the Communists, the American people of today are required to summon at least as much perseverance as the American people of those days did-for all their bitching and moaning-over the 47 long years of World War III. Indeed, in this area the generation of World War IV has an even more difficult row to hoe than its predecessors in World War II and World War III.
I think I’ll need another cup of coffee after that.
UPDATE: More “long haul” thinking along the same lines from The Belmont Club. Note that Wretchard now has an accompanying “Belmont Lounge” — worth a shufty. [Maybe you should have one of those too.--ed. Right. I could call it the Fedora Club--for what's under the hat.]
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125 Comments
1. David Thomson:ìWill George W. Bush spend the next few years backing down from the ambitious strategy he outlined in the Bush Doctrine for fighting and winning World War IV?î
Iíll make it short and sweet: No! President Bush is existentially committed to the destruction of Islamic nihilism. He knows that there is no other viable option. We either destroy them—or they will destroy us. The very idea of backing down on this matter is utterly alien to Bush. It doesn’t even cross his mind.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:02 am 2. PJ:Do we have the courage?
In 1972 less than one-third of the electorate voted for the peace (surrender) candidate; in 2004 almost half voted for a man whose life is defined by his aversion to every US-led war in his lifetime.
I was a kid in 1972, and now I think I know better. I’m with Ali–human nature hasn’t changed and never will, so let’s make them play our game. More war.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:06 am 3. Samuel:Roger
I stumbled upon David Horowitz article…
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/horowitz1.asp
It summarizes my sentiments and reasons for leaving the left so well as it properly compares Vietnam and Iraq from a neo-con perspective. He talks of his old views and how they were just wrong, actually not just wrong but downright destructive. Again this is a great reason why ex-lefties are my favorite read. As a Jew this explains where I find most of my “values deficit” with the Democratic Party. In fact I find such a large values deficit in this area that it tends to convince me to “give way” on other values issues that may not at first seem so important to me (Gay marriage, Abortion, etc.) Thanks for the tip I have been busy lately but am in a strong mood to read this. Keep up the good work.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:09 am 4. Samuel:I’ll add that since I skimmed the article since my previous article I will affirm that even though I am somewhat a Secular Jew by nature I am a “values voter” as well. Much of this is covered it Norm’s “War and Moral Values” section. I noticed he mentions James Webb’s “Scots-Irish ethnic”. Having gone back and forth with Catherine Johnson in e-mails over the this political and societal temperament maybe I’m not Jewish after all! (just kidding)
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:19 am 5. Terrye:Samuel:
I think we need the Democrats for this too.
People like my brother [ who loved F911] don’t even think there is such a thing as the war on Terror, so why would you expect them to fight it?
In his estimation the Republicans are using terrorism to scare people the same way they used communism.
Back in WW2 nobody sat around talked about whether we were really in a war with Germany and Japan. The clarity of vision of the that generation was lost with the baby boomers and with the Democratic party as a whole.
Jan 12, 2005 - 10:42 am 6. Syl:What a superbly encompassing and articulate piece on the forces arrayed against the Bush Doctrine, what they represent, and how they fight for our hearts and minds. It captured me totally and I was sorry when it ended.
I found myself chuckling out loud at his comments re Bush that accompany quotes. I mean, Podhoretz is really tuned in to the man on a gut level as well as a policy one.
But it also reminded me that I have to keep up the fight for as long as I live.
Jan 12, 2005 - 11:21 am 7. Samuel:Terrye
In his estimation the Republicans are using terrorism to scare people the same way they used communism.
Used communism to scare people? Like communism wasn’t a threat without the supposed exaggerations? That is the problem with the left, and may they be driven nuts by the ridiculousness of their positions. It is of course all of our burden but mostly theirs to bare. Hopefully they can be kept on the margins enough to win the WOT, yet they do force us to fight the WOT on two fronts. I view it all quite treasonous.
–
Back in WW2 nobody sat around talked about whether we were really in a war with Germany and Japan.
I wish it were that simple but the truth is we had just as many naysayers then as well, history and the successful outcome smoothed those edges. The main difference? THE MSM IS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE. A critical mass of the MSM and Hollywood got behind the War effort during WWII and stuck with it through thick and thin and that made a HUGE difference. How many John Wayne WWII movies are their (along with the many others)? I would submit that a big unfortunate fact is the MSM accrued negative lessons from Vietnam and Watergate and to them they came away with WE CAN CHANGE HISTORY and are hero’s, but unfortunately since the 1960’s they have been on the wrong side of history. Rather than reforming and learning like Roger, yourself and many others, they are hell-bent on using today to justify yesterday… how forward thinking is that? They will selfishly use today to re-write yesterday. It is all so damn twisted and backward thinking. To those who think like your brother which includes most of my family members I just say leave your damn heads up your asses, breath deep and continue to hyperventilate.
Jan 12, 2005 - 11:25 am 8. Percy Dovetonsils:(Samuel: I’ve often wondered about WWII and whether everyone was truly united, as the popular myth indicates. I’d love to look over some concise histories regarding that era’s peaceniks, quislings, backseat generals, etc.)
What makes me nervous is that people have driven themselves into such a rhetorical/logical corner regarding Bush – to the point where everything is his fault – that utterly nothing will convince them of Podhoretz’s view.
Oh, I do mean utterly nothing – if, God forbid, a catastrophic strike occurred on a major city in the U.S., it would simply be blamed on “blowback” from the President’s actions over the past three years.
It’s damned tough to fight when you have almost half your populace thinks you’re imagining things (and a damnably sizable portion is actively rooting against you).
Jan 12, 2005 - 11:38 am 9. Skookumchuk:Samuel:
In part because we were helping Uncle Joe. If not for that, MSM support for WWII would have been much less. Had Hitler not turned on Stalin, perhaps the MSM would never have sided with Roosevelt’s efforts to fight Fascism. No Uncle Joe today, though.
Jan 12, 2005 - 11:49 am 10. Samuel:Percy Dovetonsils
Yes, from this time forward all will be Bush’s fault from either extremes, “blowback” from his mistakes as you call it. As was put in the Horowitz article linked in my first post, leftist Isolationist think America is bad for the world and Right Isolationists think the rest of the world is bad for America, either way extremes meet. I have become so neo-conized in my own meeting of extremes that at least if I were an isolationist (I am internationalist) I would actually agree more with isolationist of the right simply because I believe America is good not bad. I guess that alone answers questions about my political fortunes and my voting for the same man Pat Buchanan did, something I never would have predicted. That being said as a person that still considers himself fairly liberal, yet I have become so offended by the left and the Democrats inability to confront, lack of will, or worse general agreement with the moonbats and such idiocy that my hand has been forced and I find myself on the “other side” of the political tracks. No regrets on my part but I am still stunned by it all. It is all topsy turvey and I feel sometimes do feel I am is some Alice in Wonderland story.
Skookumchuk
A very good point about Joe Stalin and Communism being our apparant allies during this War (WWII) and a point I thought to mention but feared I would drone on if I did. The left showed their colors after WWII though didn’t they? This behavior is in fact what gave Republicans the gift of Ronald Reagan as this was more then he as a Democrat at the time could abide, I feel very much in the same boat today, I did re-register as a Republican to make my point.
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:08 pm 11. Syl:Well, I think that wrecking ball of George’s has some more swings left in it. It smacked the Left on election day and they’ve now recovered from the vibration and have decided to fight back..and that’s a good thing…
To listen to the rantings of certain Dem’s on Foxnews and the obstructionism planned against Bush’s policies is to feel joy. They have nothing new to say and only rehash old complaints that only make the public roll its eyes.
I say keep it coming, fellas, and you’ll never win another election.
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:13 pm 12. Syl:Samuel
“Yes, from this time forward all will be Bush’s fault from either extremes, “blowback” from his mistakes as you call it. ”
So? Yes, this is how some parties would react. But do you really believe the American people as a whole will agree? The election proved there is trust in Bush and the belief that he is doing the best he can. I honestly don’t think he would be blamed.
Those who would blame him do so at their own peril.
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:20 pm 13. Paul:Historically the price paid for losing a war has been death and destruction for the losing side.
When the left successfully lobbied for America’s defeat in Viet Nam they shifted the burden of defeat to the 3 million SE Asians who were slaughtered by the communists. Meanwhile the American left, drunk with self congratulation on having valiantly stood up to the evil Amerikan War Machine and ending (by losing) the war, proceeded to carry on with their comfortable and often decadent lifestyles, oblivious to the catastrophe that they had visited upon the people of SE Asia with which they claimed such solidarity.
Of course the lesson learned by the left was that they achieve power and glory (at least in their own eyes) by defeating America and they are hell bent on repeating their triumph over the evil BushHitler, who is far worse than Nixon in their view.
It’s obvious to a lot of us, however, that the cost of losing this war will be paid with the blood of Americans. And not in the mere hundreds or few thousands. And not by Americans in uniform.
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:28 pm 14. PeterUK:Where we are now in is akin to the “Phony War” period of 1939,the Summer was pleasant,there was an air of unreality,the RAF were dropping leaflets instead of bombs,the left and the labour unions were, after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact doing everything in their power to impede preparations for war.
It was not until Operation Barbarossa that the left swung behind the war effort,though even today it is not always clear on whose side.
Today even the atrocity in Beslan cannot rouse the left from its lotus eating apathy.There is no recognition that an enemy exists,despite the ample evidence of suicide murderers,videos of beheadings and bloodcurdling rhetoric of such a direct nature as to be unmistakable.
What will it take to convince those in denial that terrorism is not simply another lifestyle choice?
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:35 pm 15. ambisinistral:PeterUK,
You anticipated the post I was about to write, although I would shove us rather back in time than the phony war. Many are still in the appeasement phase, thinking peace is still within grasp. The jihadists will strike again, and continue to strike, until that illusion is finally shattered for all but the most dense.
I’ve been reading Victor Davis Hanson’s The Ripples of Battle and he makes an interesting observation that I think applies to today’s peace camp and media coverage. He says the following about Japanese kamikazes:
“Just as important as their actual results, both the zeal and the successes of the kamikazes were always exaggerated. In a society with a state-controlled media and an effective propoganda ministry, Japanese planners could argue that suicide tactics alone promised salvation from the Americans – or at more bleak times deny their presense altogether. Had the truth of the enomrmous losses been told, coupled with the reality that not a single American battleship or carrier had ben sunk by kamikazes alone, problems with morale might have thinned the ranks of suicide-pilot ranks from the very beginning in 1944″
I read that and thought immediately about the media’s fixation with suicide and roadside bombings to the exclusion of any other miltary event in Iraq. If you believe, like I do, that the war is on — it is frustrating to of the spilled blood such misplaced reporting is surely costing.
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:54 pm 16. Terrye:Samuel:
My brother had the audaciaty to tell me about an Salvadoran he works with who said it used to be awful in his country with Raygun’s paramilitary buddies running around.
Of course when he fled he came here and not Cuba and of course he admits it is much better there now since they have elctions and all but he is making too much money in the heart of Darkness to return to his homeland.
This little morality tale is all my bro needs to evidence his claim that the commies were bad, but not all that bad…just like the terrorists are bad but not all that bad….the right wingers just take advantage.
My brother lives in Oklahoma where two out of three voters vote Republican, which means he does not say this stuff to just anybody. I ask him what he thought about the immigration thing and he said that somebody ought to kick those damn Mexican Catholics back over the border and build a wall.
Real progressive.
That is the mindsight.
Jan 12, 2005 - 12:56 pm 17. Yehudit:“In his estimation the Republicans are using terrorism to scare people the same way they used communism.”
That’s a good analogy. Remind him that communist expansion WAS real and that the Rosenbergs and others really were Russian spies according to Kremlin docs revealed after the USSR was dissolved.
Jan 12, 2005 - 1:36 pm 18. Peg C.:I believe the 3 – 4 decade estimate for this war leftists refuse to recognize is correct; I’ve been saying it will last the rest of my life and beyond. What scares me is the idea that, absent periodic attacks, we as a people will lose the will to fight this war. I wish for not another attack ever. The left uses the lack of attacks as proof that there is no danger (their new theory seems to be that Al Qaeda as an organization is a creation of W’s to justify our warmongering). I am just as certain that perhaps dozens of attacks have been prevented since 9/11 but we will never know it. The problem with successful security is its result is an intangible: lack of an event. Furthermore, with the left, everything is glass-half-empty. Or to put it another way, heads we win, tails you lose. More attacks/no attacks, more terrorists/fewer terrorists – both are fodder for their dogma.
Re: WWII, a reader at victorhanson.com queries VDH on why the British rushed to our defense after 9/11 and it took us years to come to their defense during WWII. As usual with VDH, his answer is a good one.
Jan 12, 2005 - 1:57 pm 19. Terrye:Yehudit:
I did that and he just looked at me and smirked, shook his head and said “Man, they really got in your mind didn’t they?”
To which I said something to the effect that at least I had a mind.
You have to remember that my borther’s idea of a foreign policy expert is someone like Micahel Moore or Howard Stern.
It is kind of like having a debate on race relations with the KKK.
I am thinking of not speaking to him for about a year…
Jan 12, 2005 - 2:36 pm 20. Katherine:Terrye
ìIn his estimation the Republicans are using terrorism to scare people the same way they used communism.î
Samuel beat me to it. So, Communism was not a real treat?
(Sigh). I would recommend the Black Book of Communism http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/qid=1105569208/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-9497765-2731938?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 to your brother so he can see the wonderful effects that establishing communist rule had on all the nations that tried it It is written by French former Communists, so it might carry some credibility for him. There is also the Gulag by Anne Applebaum http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400034094/qid=1105569208/sr=8-2/ref=pd_ka_2/104-9497765-2731938?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 . Or he may want to talk with my Mother, nothing like an eyewitness, no? Then again he might think that all these people are on CIA payroll (I wish, for the sake of my Mom!)
Jan 12, 2005 - 2:37 pm 21. JBR:Katherine: Excellent typo. I think that we would all agree that Communism was not a real treat.
Jan 12, 2005 - 2:43 pm 22. Skookumchuk:On the bright side, very few in academia and virtually none in the US MSM see Islamofascism as an attractive alternative to present Western society. They aren’t wearing Zarqawi t-shirts the way they used to wear Che t-shirts. Or still wear Che t-shirts. And that might be significant.
It is just that psychologically they can’t be on the same side as those inhabitants of JesusLand they so despise. And that is significant, too.
Jan 12, 2005 - 2:55 pm 23. Catherine:Haven’t read the thread, yet, but picking up on Samuel:
Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb
Read it!
It explains all!
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:14 pm 24. Bostonian:To anyone who believes that Al Qaeda is a bedtime story made up by George W. Bush, I ask: “What do you think of the thousands of people working in intelligence agencies in the West?”
Either there’s a giant conspiracy of like-minded people (as Hillary noted!) or all these people are just doing what they’re told.
The problem with either of those answers is that it requires one man to have an incredible amount of power and/or thousands of people to be easily led like sheep. Either way, those thousands of people don’t count. Their experience doesn’t matter, their observations are irrelevant. Ditto the government agencies to which they belong. One man sweeps all that away, with his vast, unchecked powers.
… because that’s how the US works, in their minds.
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:19 pm 25. Catherine:I’d love to get a genealogical breakdown of Roger’s commenters.
I’m guessing Jewish neo-cons in alliance with Scots-Irish belligerants.
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:21 pm 26. Catherine:How many folks here have a “Mc” somewhere in their history?
I do.
McCammon.
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:22 pm 27. Skookumchuk:Catherine, Samuel:
Webb’s book is actually very good. It got me thinking that the only way America could ever come apart is if some elite or political force tried to make America’s Jacksonian core do something they wanted no part of – then, watch out.
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:22 pm 28. Skookumchuk:Catherine:
Family story. When my sweet English Grandma was courting my Scots-Irish Grandpa back around 1917 or so, she went to his parent’s house where he and all his brothers were gathered in the kitchen. From the noise, she thought she would have to call the police. My grandfather explained they were just having a pleasant fraternal conversation . . .
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:31 pm 29. PeterUK:Skookumchuk.
Academa,the MSM and the rest of the chatterati are trapped by their political correctness,their noble savage has turned out to be an embarrasment,somewhat like a favourite pooch trying to hump the visiting parsons leg,best to look away and pretend it isn’t happening.More tea Vicar?
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:39 pm 30. David Thomson:“Oh, I do mean utterly nothing – if, God forbid, a catastrophic strike occurred on a major city in the U.S., it would simply be blamed on “blowback” from the President’s actions over the past three years.”
Read the following:
ìLikewise, after the eruption of Mt. Krakatoa in 1883, according to historian Simon Winchester, ìthe Dutch made this superhuman effort to bring relief to the area because they were aware of the significance of the event and that the Muslim clerics were quickly making political capital from the event.î But the relief changed no hearts, and Muslims mounted a violent assassination campaign against Dutch officials.î
—Robert Spencer
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16584
Blowback? The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the supposedly a primary reason for Islamic nihilism. Is this some sort of joke? Is someone sniffing an illegal substance? The rage and bitterness of these monsters cannot be appeased by trying to find a common ground of understanding. Osama bin Ladin is similar to a rabid dog. He is existentially committed to violence. A bourgeoisie life worrying about the paying monthly mortgage payment and getting the kids to their soccer game fails to get his juices flowing. Only the spilling of blood will be found satisfactory. This is why we are in a fight to the death.
The national Democratic Party seems utterly incapable of understanding the challenge confronting America in the 21st Century. The corpse is starting to smell up the place. When will the burial take place?
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:39 pm 31. Skookumchuk:Then there were all those Basques on my Mom’s side . . .
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:48 pm 32. Catherine:OK, partway through the thread, I’m BACK TO GENEALOGY!
I’ve mentioned before, Ledeen is not a fan of path dependency, and I take the point. However, thanks to James Webb, I am now a path dependency enthusiast.
Percy Dovetonsils’ post above made me think many folks here might want to check out Michael Lind’s article on the ‘genealogical’ history of Democrats & Republicans in this country.
pulls:
What’s the matter with Massachusetts? The Democrats are far too dependent on it. Go Midwest, young man. By Michael Lind
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:51 pm 33. Catherine:Percy D
As it happens, it’s not!
Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:53 pm 34. Catherine:Having half the population actively rooting against you are almost the preferred conditions of the Scots-Irish, it seems.
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:54 pm 35. Catherine:Samuel
I love it!
I’ve always known that extremes meet, but I haven’t been able to put it into words so succinctly!
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:55 pm 36. Byron00:Podhoretz says this war will be won or lost here in the US. In fact, Bush’s opponents managed to force a distorted perception of his policy from the very start. That occurred when the Bush Administration, in trying to avoid a predictable reaction from those quarters, emphasized the WMD problem virtually to the exclusion of everything else as the rationale for an invasion of Iraq. That, of course, “obscured the long-range strategic rationale for the invasion”, which was to drain the political swamps of the Mid East and introduce democracy. In other words, a view of the war was introduced into the public mind that missed what the war was fundamentally all about.
That opening has been tirelessly exploited by opponents of the invasion of Iraq to this day. Bush has tried to re-orient public perceptions about the nature of our mission, as in his speech at the Air Force Academy, but the shrill, enraged cries of “There were no WMD! Bush led us to war on a lie!” continue to drown everything else out. Looked at through that lens, every battlefied casualty is the result of a monstrous mistake, or worse, and so every casualty is given maximal attention by our media, with no hint of any larger purpose that might justify those sacrifices.
This is nothing good about this. Podhoretz is wrong, however, to imply that a different approach was possible; it wasn’t. The invasion of Iraq could never have been sold, either at home or in the UN, on the basis of a strategic argument about the long-term necessity of regime change(s)in the Mid East. If Bush had taken that approach, our troops would still be sitting in the desert outside the borders of Iraq, and they would sit there in perpetuity. The WMD argument, accurate or not, was the only way to get this effort launched.
Jan 12, 2005 - 3:59 pm 37. Skookumchuk:PeterUK:
And the fact that they are an embarrassment and not an inspiration is something in our favor. I guess.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:03 pm 38. Katherine:JBR,
I blush; I hang my head in shame and swear revenge to the Pervire bastard. I will get him this year, I tell you!
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:03 pm 39. Rick Ballard:Catherine,
Wonder if anyone is working on linguistic similarities between Gaelic and Hebrew. To the ear Loch Lomond isn’t so different from l’chaim. Who knows where the lost tribes wound up?
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:10 pm 40. Catherine:Skookumchuk
I was about to make this point when I saw you already got there.
I don’t have the sense that any but the extreme left is actively identifying with the “Patriots” of Iraq & the ME; I certainly don’t see it around me, and I have a ringside seat.
The problem is status quo, realist, quasi-appeasement thinking.
The problem is also, I think, an opposition between the Elites and the people.
In the run-up to the war I noticed that lots of Elite-types were bailing on Bush. Sullivan, Drezner, Chafetz—-lots of them.
That’s a major theme of BORN FIGHTING: the Scots-Irish loathe elites, always have and always will.
OK, that’s one!
Well, 3 counting me & Richard M.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:11 pm 41. Rick Ballard:Well, four, but only an eighth.
Maccabee – McCabe
Further evidence?
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:16 pm 42. Morgan:Five. McDonough.
Rick, I assume you are joking about the Gaelic-Hebrew thing, right? Otherwise I’ll be forced to go into full amateur (or is that pajamateur) linguist mode.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:24 pm 43. Catherine:Skookumchuk
I had a similar thought: I wonder whether the ‘don’t make them madder than they already are’ school of thought harks back to some dim, racial memory (that’s a joke, folks!) of conflict with the Scots-Irish.
Now there is a group of people you don’t want to tick off.
The Scots-Irish (and I haven’t finished the book, or committed it fully to memory, so take this with a grain of salt) apparently didn’t look for fights; they weren’t expansionist. (Right?) But if attacked they fought to the death. Theirs was a military culture of fierce defensive aggression.
Basically, they were and are the ‘don’t tread on me’ folks.
Or, as my mother used to say, ‘I can be led, but I can’t be pushed.’
That is exactly the kind of person to appease, and I mean this seriously. Leave them alone, all will be well.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:24 pm 44. Catherine:Rick Ballard
OK, I’m remembering you’re a Presbyterian, right?
So that makes four.
Naturally I’ve been wondering about why Jews & Scots-Irish would have an affinity, assuming that they do . . . I say that because the Scots-Irish readily mix with other cultures, and typically absorb other cultures into their own, rather than vice versa.
Webb argues that that’s one of the reasons Scots-Irish are so dominant in America.
My mom said something funny. Her best friend, next door, is married to a Scot.
She’s not remotely Scottish herself, “but they’ve got her wearing plaids and kilts.”
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:28 pm 45. Skookumchuk:Catherine
I think that the elites have a deep fear of the nation’s Jacksonian core for just those reasons.
My only quibble with Webb is that he makes the Scots-Irish a bit too unique. He had to, I guess, to make his point.
But there were many other places in Europe, especially in the Celtic and Scandinavian worlds, where you found that same sort of independence and disregard for hierarchy.
Somehow, they got that drained out of them, while it seemingly remains central to the American Scots-Irish character.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:30 pm 46. Catherine:One more thing: Scots-Irish Americans often don’t know they’re Scots-Irish. They just think they’re Americans. More than a few of them will actually check off ‘native American’ on their Census forms.
Webb’s book has been a revelation to me. I had no idea I was Scots-Irish. I always assumed I was English (I do have English ancestors), so I kept trying to think of myself as a WASP, a label and an idea that never, ever fit.
I find myself on every page of Webb’s book.
I finally asked my mom about our ancestors. Turns out not only are they Scots-Irish, they are Ulster Scots, and on both sides of the family to boot.
I told my husband about this, and he said, “So you got a double whammy.”
Later I realized I should have said, “No, you did!”
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:33 pm 47. Catherine:I’ve veered off onto the Scots-Irish because once you get a sense of their history, and their huge numbers in the United States, you don’t feel inclined to worry that America will bail on the WOT.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:35 pm 48. Catherine:
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:37 pm 49. Catherine:Skookumchuk
But I wonder whether the combativeness of other ‘warrior folkways’ actually has been drained away?
Or do we simply not hear of these people.
Webb points out that the Scots-Irish are virtually invisible to Elites, and we here in America get our image of Europe and Europeans mainly as filtered through elites.
For instance, did you have any idea that Holland has a Bible belt?
I didn’t.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:39 pm 50. Rick Ballard:Catherine,
Probably Jamie and Lapsed Randian on the Presby basis. Although that’s not determinative at all any more.
Morgan,
Yeah, kidding – but I could sell 20% of the population on it.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:41 pm 51. Steve J.:Byron00 “That occurred when the Bush Administration, in trying to avoid a predictable reaction from those quarters, emphasized the WMD problem virtually to the exclusion of everything else as the rationale for an invasion of Iraq. That, of course, “obscured the long-range strategic rationale for the invasion”, which was to drain the political swamps of the Mid East and introduce democracy. “
How could you possibly believe this Administration could pull this off? They couldn’t even handle the post-war!
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:43 pm 52. Paul:Not a frequent commenter, but a regular reader, and Scots-Irish to the bone. Married to a Columbian-Irish girl who has even more of a “don’t tread on me” mentality than I do, and I’ve been fighting mad since 9-11.
To the Scots-Irish war, when needed, is an entirely acceptable course of action. LOSING A WAR IS NOT!!
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:45 pm 53. Skookumchuk:Catherine
Not a clue until I read the book. It makes you wonder what may be moving under the ice that we just don’t hear about. Especially with respect to attitudes regarding the EU and the increased Islamic presence in Europe.
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:47 pm 54. Charlie (Colorado):McClintock.
(Sorry to be so short, but I’m so behind on OTAS mail….)
Jan 12, 2005 - 4:59 pm 55. Rick Ballard:Catherine,
If you really want to stretch a bit further, the Dutch Reformed Church is still very strong in South Africa with the vast majority of its membership being black (that’s as recounted by a SA Dutch Reformed pastor and I have never confirmed it) and the Presbyterian Church of East Africa (which is almost twice the size of the American denomination) was started by the Scots in 1891. America wasn’t the only continent where the Scots Irish were frontiersmen.
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:13 pm 56. Skookumchuk:Rick:
Very true about the overseas Scots. They were instrumental in the growing Christianization of Africa, which is very significant. Supposedly there are (I forget the number) tens of millions of Anglicans and Presbyterians in places like Nigeria, many more so than in Great Britain. The centers of gravity of these denominations are moving away from Europe and toward Africa, where they come in contact with an expansionist Islam – giving the average pastor in a Nigerian village a somewhat different perspective on these issues than his compadre in Europe or the USA. And there is speculation that up to 20 percent of China’s population may become Christian in the 21st Century, which would also be interesting.
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:37 pm 57. Rick Ballard:I’ve made a second pass through the piece now and while I agree with the overall thrust I fail to understand why Podhoretz did not give some weight to the power of live media to affect public sentiment. He details Johnson’s cave-in to Comrade Uncle Walty but neglects to mention Gunga Dan being tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail.
The Fifth Column of the MSM will not have victory in this war. Live media – talk radio and the Internet will parry the negative message and provide sufficient counterbalance to keep the American public supporting the war until it is won. Dead media will do what it can to drag down support but it’s not going to be enough.
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:39 pm 58. John¬©:Roger: “One more cup of coffee”? (One of Dylan/Emmylou Harris’ best). Catherine (re: strange bedfellows): The Pathans of Aghanistan and NWFP of Pakistan (Paktunistan)–by popular legend–consider themselves the lost tribe of Israel! Hitler, as many of you know, was–perhaps paradoxically– fascinated by Afghanistan, due to the whole inexplicable Afghan/Ayran bloodline thing (remember, to this day the Afghan airline is called Ariana. These events, history and myth are alluded to in a couple of ‘Raiders’ films, of course.)
A few months ago I visited the historic, now renovated and still very prestigious German school (quite stunning, enormous and gorgeous) in Kabul; reputededly the best pre-university educational institution in Afghanistan.) Politics and/or enthographics makes strange bedfellow indeed, no? Ironically, or not, Afghanistan has taken to democracy like no other country we’ve ‘forcefully’ encountered in the last half century. Afghans as the American Scots/Irish of the Islamic world?
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:39 pm 59. truepeers:Well, I have a Jewish mother and a Scots-Irish father; Catherine, you have me rethinking their courtship in a whole new light.
I might point out, since I’m a Canadian too, that the “Scots-Irish” migration to Canada was very important, numerically, in the 19thC., and influential in shaping our national character (e.g. Toronto was once known as the Belfast of the Canadas) But we Canadians tend to call these forebears Irish Protestants, or vice versa, or Orangemen. Anyway, my point is that you will find differences between the Canadian and American “Scots-Irish” reflecting the different times of migration, and also the fact that in Canada much of the elite were protestant Irish, and still are I suppose, not that the ethnic identity is very strongly identified as such, precisely because it had a leading role in defining Canadianism and thus disappearing into it.
I might also note that Ireland was essentially the first English colony and the educaitonal, policing, military, and other governmental institutions of Canada, and I imagine other parts of the empire, were often modelled on Irish precedents, which is why this identity can also be assimilated to “Britishness” or some such. Finally, I bet if you were to look at anti- and pro-Americanism in Canada, you would find that many with the Scots-Irish ancestry are on the pro side.
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:41 pm 60. richard mcenroe:Actually, the genealogy of my family is very path dependent, too. Ironclad, in fact. When I did a study of the history of my family in the US there’s a thin line of the name right across the country where the rail lines were built, with little concentrations along the way where various ancestors decided that’s all the trains any reasonable fellow could want…
I don’t know about the Irish as the Lost Tribes, but there’s a very suggestive link between the Tuatha de Danaan who settled Ireland before the Milesians and the “Children of Danae” who the fled “The sons of Aegyptus”…
Catherine ó Ah, yes, Ulster Scots… drink like Irishmen, then run off to the jakes when it’s their turn to buy a round…*g*
But keep in mind, we’ve held one grudge already for 900 years. What’s a few decades to us?
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:43 pm 61. PeterUK:The history of the Scots-Irish in Northern Ireland should not be painted in too rosy colours,the Plantation was quite a bloody affair.
http://canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/Plantation.htm
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:45 pm 62. Skookumchuk:JohnA:
Afghans as the American Scots/Irish of the Islamic world?
Well, maybe just a bit. Before Iraq, I had a conversation with a Beltway Bandit consultant (and Kerry and Clarke fan) who was very vocal in his criticism of our policy in Afghanistan. He stated that a major failing was that “we didn’t take their guns away”.
Yeah, right.
Jan 12, 2005 - 5:55 pm 63. Rick Ballard:Skookumchuk,
The conversion of China is kind of interesting. The PCK(orea) is about the size of the PCUSA and is very evangelical. They have close ties with the PCT(aiwan) which is 1/10th the size but also very evangelical. I’d bet that there is a quiet but coordinated effort going on in China, not to mention what the PCK is doing in North Korea.
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:10 pm 64. Catherine:Paul
I’m writing that down!
I’ve always had the ‘fighting spirit,’ and when I was a kid I was so competitive my family made jokes about me. (I deserved it, too. I could have a Total Meltdown just losing a game of tether ball.)
But 9/11 ‘awakened’ something in me I didn’t know was there.
It’s funny, because although I was an ‘extreme liberal’ when young, I always bridled at any form of anti-Americanism, and I liked our soldiers, and thought of them as heroic.
I thought ‘hawks’ were a bad lot, but OTOH, I didn’t remotely feel like a dove myself. I had the same relation to dove-hood I had to WASP-hood: it was technically my category, I believed, but it didn’t fit. I didn’t fit.
When I met my husband he was involved in the nuclear freeze movement. I had barely heard of the nuclear freeze movement, as I recall, and once I did hear of it I didn’t have the slightest interest in it. I thought I ought to . . . but I didn’t.
Five seconds later my future husband had dropped out of it himself, which I take to be an excellent example of a Scots-Irish person corrupting a non-Scots-Irish person, rather than the other way around.
Another story from my mom.
She once told me she had always thought she could never harm another human being.
“But when you were born,” she said (I was the first), “I looked at you and I knew I could kill anyone who tried to hurt you.”
That’s the way I’ve felt ever since 9/11.
Oh gosh. OK, here’s a slightly-more-intimate story, but I think it’s alright to tell.
My husband had a pretty bad tenure battle way back when. There was an older professor in his department, highly esteemed and respected (a conservative, too!), who tried to block his tenure.
I became so filled with rage towards this man that I had vivid mental images of his death. I imagined him keeling over and dying of a heart attack.
That experience inspired my husband’s second book, THE TRIAL OF MADAME CAILLAUX, about a famous case in France where the wife of a Prime Minister murdered her husband’s political opponent, a newspaper editor, in cold blood. She bought a gun, took shooting lessons, stuck the weapon in her muff, had herself shown into the guy’s office, and shot him dead.
She got away with it, too. The court found her innocent.
Apparently I reminded my husband of Madame Caillaux.
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:19 pm 65. Old Grouch:Catherine:
Another datapoint for you: Buchanan. On one side. And a bunch of clanless western-coast wreckers on the other. Beware!
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:22 pm 66. Steven Mitchell:Also long time lurker, just starting to post again. Family? Collins and Glassco (corrupted Glascow from an ancestor that couldn’t read or write). And Catherine, that Native American bit on the census forms? Well, there’s also some Cherokee in there as well, not to mention some Welch.
From bits and pieces I’ve seen of Webb’s book, he also talks about the initial suspicion of outsiders but eventual outside inclusiveness of the Jacksonians. This has very much been my understanding and experience of the culture from the inside. The intermarriage with the Cherokee is an early American example (and why even Jacksonians consider the Trail of Tears the huge blot on Jackson’s record). The same thing has happened with black, Asian, Catholic, Jewish, and even smart-alec firemen from NYC. If you give Osama the finger, you can’t be all bad! Heh.
Two more generations, and the south will be the least racist part of the country.
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:23 pm 67. Catherine:Skookumchuk
I’ve been blown away by the whole thing. Suddenly discovering one’s ethnic group in mid life–suddenly discovering that I even have an ethnic group . . . it’s like finding out you’re adopted.
What do you mean ‘with respect to attitudes regarding the EU’?
Are you talking about our attitudes towards the EU, or Europeans’ attitudes towards the EU?
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:23 pm 68. Catherine:I think I posted this ages ago:
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:24 pm 69. mudmarine:McLeod (Old Norse ‘Leoid’ for Ugly?), I’ve read.
Motto ‘Hold Fast’
Catherine
‘I can be led, but I can’t be pushed.’
Great saying from your Mother.
And, yes, it is funny, my Hispanic wife has damn near more interest in my Scot-Irish ancestry than I do.
As far as the ‘Lost Tribes’, I remember my good friend McDonough from back in the day. Thick black hair, dark skin, would have fit right in somewhere in the ME. Called himself ‘black irish’ if I remember correctly.
Samuel
Good to see you.
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:26 pm 70. Catherine:PeterUK
Just had time to glance at the Ulster Scots article, but will read.
I think we’ve got Competing Narratives here.
Webb seems to say that the Scots moved to Ulster Plantation pretty much at the behest of Britain. (His book clips along, so I frequently feel I’ve missed something. But I’m pretty sure that’s his argument.)
Is there any kind of consensus about this? (Webb doesn’t present himself as writing revisionist history, which is not to say that he isn’t. I don’t think he’s done much primary research; he’s mainly synthesizing the various histories of the Ulster Scots already written, and reflecting on these people himself.)
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:31 pm 71. Skookumchuk:Catherine
I meant attitudes held by non-elite Europeans toward this aloof EU bureaucracy in Brussels. On the one hand, they are all taught to worship state planning; on the other they do have some relict sense of disdain for those same bureaucrats.
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:32 pm 72. DennisThePeasant:It was McPeasant on Dad’s side and O’Peasant on Mom’s.
Ballard: “The Fifth Column of the MSM will not have victory in this war. Live media – talk radio and the Internet will parry the negative message and provide sufficient counterbalance to keep the American public supporting the war until it is won. Dead media will do what it can to drag down support but it’s not going to be enough.”
That may be Rick, but there is always the chance we could win over MSM and the Leftist Blog-Dross. How about convincing them that Osama bin Laden plans full privatization of Social Security in the U.S. just as soon as the Caliphate has been restored? By my calculations, that oughta just about do it.
You can murder Jews and Crusaders, enslave women and destroy Western Civilization…but don’t go fucking with entitlement programs, Goddamn it! You’d have Marshall, Drum and DeLong picking up weapons and jostling Peter Jennings to ride shotgun on a humvee yesterday…
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:34 pm 73. chuck:Rick Ballard:
I’d bet that there is a quiet but coordinated effort going on in China,
Reminds me of my only visit to China back in 1988. I went on a tour of the place in Xian where Chiang Kai-shek was arrested by his generals in 1936. One of the other tourists was a older missionary, working in the Phillipines, who had actually been there in Xian at the time of the arrest. He related the stories of modern day Chinese martys in much the same way that Christians might speak of the martys of Roman times: it was the real thing to him. He also assured me that the Christian community was still growing in China, even if underground.
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:35 pm 74. Catherine:McClintock
Good Lord.
Now that is a hawkish name.
And Buchanan—-that’s Irish, yes?
JohnA
There’s an amazing article in THE NATIONAL INTERST about exactly this.
Check out these opening paragraphs (it’s subscription only, so you probably can’t link):
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:42 pm 75. Catherine:Sorry—that was from Silk Road to Success
By: S. Frederick Starr
Issue Date: Winter 2004/05, Posted On: 12/22/2004
http://www.nationalinterest.org/ME2/Segments/Publications/Print.asp?Title=%3C!–008–%3ESilk+Road+to+Success&Module=Publications::Article&id=9B28649A8D0D4097A083A9E7FA14ABD2
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:43 pm 76. PeterUK:Catherine,I’ve linked the list of Scots-Irish names to help the other strand along http://canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/usnames.htm
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:50 pm 77. Catherine:Skookumchuk
Oh absolutely.
And it’s not so far below the ice, either. Our friends in France told us 75% of the French public is opposed to Turkey joining.
James Bennett’s latest on the Anglosphere is worth reading (and isn’t subscription only):
OTOH, Europe, Bennet argues, correctly I believe (for now at least), was always different from England:
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:53 pm 78. Catherine:omygod, PeterUK!
Thank you!
Jan 12, 2005 - 6:55 pm 79. Skookumchuk:PeterUK:
Fascinating.
In my case, half went to Peterborough, Ontario and then on to Saskatchewan while the other half went to Detroit and then the West Coast. From County Monaghan, now in the Republic of Ireland.
I’ve got a photo of the liner that my grandfather and his brothers, all in their early twenties, took from Londonderry to Canada. The Laurentian. It’s hanging in the hallway.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:02 pm 80. Old Grouch:Catherine:
Buchanan=Scots. Even has a tartan.
Unfortunately, the Buchanans were my great-grandmother’s family, my own surname came from the wreckers and has no tartan.
My sister is the genealogist (I’ve never bothered that much), but I know I’ve got Irish and English ancestors, too. And folks with my name fought on BOTH sides in the War Between the States.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:03 pm 81. Steven Mitchell:“So the English “peasant” that Hollywood is fond of depicting turns out to be the figment of a 19th-century Marxist’s imagination.”
Hah, that’s just the tip of the iceberg, when you want to talk about the post-modern view of medieval society. Figments abound. But rather than derail the topic, I’ll just say read Norman Cantor for a sane, hardly right-wing, corrective.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:04 pm 82. triticale:I couldn’t find it by googling, and the songbook which contains it is packed away, but there is an Irish folksong which is just about on topic. During the time of English oppression in Ireland, when Gaelic was outlawed, a Jewish shopkeeper put up a Hebrew sign on the outside of his business. Since one unfamiliar language is as bad as another, he was arrested, and became a bit of a martyr to the cause.
I myself am entirely of Eastern European Jewish ancestry. It may be that my father’s Georgian roots laid the groundwork for my total absorbtion of the Scotch-Irish culture. When Gretchen Wilson’s debut song “Redneck Woman” became the biggest country hit of the year I stopped worrying about the outcome of the election. People who are proud of the trivial cultural aspects of a tradition despised by the elite vote the deeply held strength of that tradition.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:06 pm 83. Catherine:truepeers
When you get it figured out, let me know.
I was attracted to my husband explicitly because of ‘aggression,’ ‘pushiness’ etc. If you read the Judeophilia article Roger linked to a few weeks back, the one in which the working class British girl listens to her dad grousing about how they should send the Jews to Ulster, and they’d get the place sorted out (Ulster! little did I know!) . . . I had the same experience as a child, listening to my dad’s friend Mack (Italian, not Scots-Irish) saying we should turn whatever foreign policy crisis we were in at the moment over to Moshe Dayan, because he’d make short work of it. The implication being that Moshe Dayan would not put up with the s*** we were putting up with at the time.
I remember that vividly; it’s a key moment from my childhood.
I don’t know how many other people had experiences like that as a child, but finding it expressed by a British woman told me we’re probably not the only two.
Do you know what the two groups are like?
My own family, on both sides, immigrated to America in the 19th century.
I’m assuming that’s why I’m not “Jacksonian” in the way ‘real’ Jacksonians are (the Scots-Irish pretty much are the Jacksonians and vice versa)–and why I was able to take such a long detour through semi-dovish liberalism.
That’s another funny thing.
I’m not a redneck, myself.
But I’ve always felt exceedingly comfortable around redneck sorts (although central IL doesn’t have rednecks, exactly, so I’m not quite putting this right). When I think about it, they’ve felt like ‘home,’ or even like ‘kin.’
I’ve felt a kind of recognition.
Now I realize I was experiencing exactly that: recognition.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:21 pm 84. Catherine:Dtp
it was McPeasant on Dad’s side and O’Peasant on Mom’s.
We should have beat you to it on that one!
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:23 pm 85. Catherine:Old Grouch
Buchanan=Scots. Even has a tartan.
Good grief.
Yet more evidence that Scots-Irish types have no idea who they are or where the hell they came from.
I’m going to start checking Native American on my Census forms.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:25 pm 86. truepeers:“During the time of English oppression in Ireland, when Gaelic was outlawed, a Jewish shopkeeper put up a Hebrew sign on the outside of his business. Since one unfamiliar language is as bad as another, he was arrested, and became a bit of a martyr to the cause.”
Reminds me of a joke my Bohemian-Jewish grandfather, who lived in England from 1938, liked to tell. Somehow, we’re put in mind of a Chinese restaurant in Wales. The service is unusually good, and a proudly Welsh customer compliments the owner, “how do you get the staff to speak such fine Welsh?” “shh,” the owner replies, “they think it’s English”.
Jan 12, 2005 - 7:31 pm 87. Catherine:Rick B
Well, four, but only an eighth.
Maccabee – McCabe
Further evidence?
That’ll do it.
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:01 pm 88. Catherine:Skookumchuk
My grandfather explained they were just having a pleasant fraternal conversation . . .
My brother’s first intelligible words were ’she hit me.’
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:02 pm 89. Morgan:“shh,” the owner replies, “they think it’s English”.
Hey! Paid a mallu cachau!
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:06 pm 90. Morgan:OK, I admit, I had to look up Welsh curses on swearsaurus.
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:13 pm 91. Catherine:Steven M
Wow!
This is great!
he also talks about the initial suspicion of outsiders but eventual outside inclusiveness of the Jacksonians
From what I’ve read so far, the Scots-Irish have and had very little suspicion of outsiders at all. (As I say, I’ve been reading quickly, so I may have missed something.)
They are exceptionally ‘embracive,’ the word Webb uses. Anyone who was willing to stand and fight with the Scots was a Scot, a member of the family. At least one historian has said that they grew horizontally (I’m not sure that is the term); they grew outward, by marrying out & absorbing other families into their own. When a member of the clan married out, the new spouse’s entire family became part of the clan.
Think how radically different that is from, for example, Orthodox Judaism creating rules about children who married outside the religion being ‘dead’ to the family.
Speaking of racism, the military is heavily Scots-Irish, and the military is, I think, the least racist institution in the country.
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:14 pm 92. Catherine:mudmarine
McLeod (Old Norse ‘Leoid’ for Ugly?), I’ve read.
Motto ‘Hold Fast’
Yup. That’s your basic Scots-Irish.
It’s an amazing book. The whole Red State-Blue State divide is right there, on each page, only it’s 2000 years old.
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:20 pm 93. richard mcenroe:Catherine ó When Patrick O’Brian, the author of the wonderful Aubrey-Maturin historical novels, passed away and it was publicly acknowledged that he was actually a British writer who had been struggling for years, the Irish Times wrote, in a valedictory editorial, “If he wanted to be Irish that badly, then as far as we’re concerned, he’s Irish.”
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:32 pm 94. Charlie (Colorado):I’ve got a photo of the liner that my grandfather and his brothers, all in their early twenties, took from Londonderry to Canada. The Laurentian. It’s hanging in the hallway.
Wow, that’s some hallway!
Oh, you meant the picture.
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:55 pm 95. flenser:Counter-examples; Ted Kennedy, Patrick Leahy, to start.
Jan 12, 2005 - 8:56 pm 96. chuck:Catherine:
The whole Red State-Blue State divide is right there, on each page, only it’s 2000 years old.
ISTR reading somewhere that the Protestant/Catholic boundary in Europe ran roughly along the frontier of the Roman Empire. Talk about historical destiny.
Re: Scots,
My grandfather thought he came from a sept of the (highland) Campells, but the attribution may be part of the Scotch enthusiasm engendered by Sir Walter Scott. The sept is indeed listed among those of the Campbells, but no one seems to know why. Anyway, not Scotts Irish. The rest of the family is pretty English, dating back into the 1700’s and spreading from the Carolinas. There are rumors of Irish and French components, but I have never researched the genealogy. I did find it interesting that both my brother and I reacted almost the same way to 9/11, even though we live in different states and don’t see each other much. Our attitude definitely came from somewhere in the family traditions, but I don’t have the sense that we belong to an “honor” tradition. Hard scrabble independent settlers, yes, honor, no. There is something else at work.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:04 pm 97. Steven Mitchell:“From what I’ve read so far, the Scots-Irish have and had very little suspicion of outsiders at all.”
Well, “suspicion of outsiders” is probably the wrong phrase for what I mean. And again, I’ve only read bits of Webb posted by various folks. But having lived in the culture most of my life, what I was getting at is that there is:
1. This initial suspicion of anyone “outside” until one makes some kind of judgement as to whether or not that person shares those critical values (e.g. honor). And while this is a somewhat generous and hesitant assessment of individuals at first contact, once the assessment is made, it tends to hold for or against that person’s culture, race, country, or whatever other classification springs to mind (e.g. educated elites, rich Republicans). Get enough individuals that seem to fit a stereotype, and this will harden into prejudice for at least a generation. Over generalizing, of course.
2. It is not “polite” to treat an outsider as an outside until they have positively identified themselves as without honor, et. al. But you don’t have any special obligation to be mannerly with someone once they definitely cross that line. (You might be polite anyway, but it’s for your own sake and for general cultivation of manners.)
Funny you should mention the integration of the military, because, in my opinion, this is what made Martin Luther King’s success possible. That, and he was very shrewd and knew the South well. Everyone not from down in these parts seems to think that MLK persuaded Southernors with a moral appeal. And there was some of that. But I don’t think folks always appreciate just how incredibly *rude* it is to hold onto racist attitudes against a people that fought in WWII. It probably sounds silly to most of you guys, but things like Joe Louis saying, “Whatever is wrong with my country, ain’t nothing Hilter can fix,” paved the way for MLK.
The other side of that, of course, was the way the U.S. military begin mixing all the units up instead of keeping them separated by region. (My understanding is that the goal was to prevent all the young men from a single area getting killed if a particular unit was crushed.) So now all these Scots-Irish from the South and Midwest are put into contact not only with each other but also kids from the Bronx and Catholic chaplains and you name it–good, bad, and ugly.
Now, this doesn’t mean that the prejudice against “carpetbaggers” went away! What it meant was that it suddenly became rude to assume a Yank was a carpetbagger until you got to know him personally. People would mutter their slurs under their breath and be absolutely mortified if someone outside their family heard. And their kids saw this; saw that Mom and Dad didn’t really believe it anymore–or they’d say it out in the open. Some kept that attitude. Some just dropped it altogether. Every generation, more folks drop real prejudice for only muttered slurs. And more drop the slurs.
It’s this valuing of manners that makes the gradual healing possible. You *know* that people cheering Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door didn’t just suddenly change their minds. But a great many of them decided not to make an issue of it. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the other famous case of non-violent resistance working so well is India. The English lost the will to empire in part because it was just plain embarrassingly impolite to keep people down. Lots of other cultures have tried similar tactics with notably little success. You can’t embarrass the French at all. And when did any of their empire escape peacefully?
And getting back on topic by this long route, I hope this helps explain the inclusiveness of the Jacksonian culture. A wise man doesn’t insult an honorable opponent–much less a friend. It’s not being wrong that alienates the “educated elite” from the Jacksonians. Rather, it’s that so many of the elites are rude and dishonorable. And having dropped so many prejudices in such a short time, your typical Jacksonian has become practically philosophic about the individuality he always practiced.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:08 pm 98. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):Okay…
1/4 Moore, 1/4 McGowan – both Scotts-Irish
1/2 German
And then there’s a tiny fraction of Pahmunkie Indian blood (ironically, also in my wife, and we just discovered this) from Jamestown.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:50 pm 99. rod:I am with most here–we are at war, no getting around it. I was in lower Manhattan that day several years back, and work 2 blocks from the site. Actually, I was there today on a source meeting.
I do think one liberal critique of the war–and by liberal, i mean New Republic, not the Nation, that is valid is that if we are at war the way POTUS/Cheney/Rumsfeld say we are, then its time to be serious about sacrifice. im talking deep spending cuts, raising new divisions, that sort of thing.
we don’t have nearly enough troops over there–Afghanistan and Iraq, to say nothing of what’s coming in Iran and perhaps, Syria. we are holding elections in 2 weeks and we dont have several key areas secure. there have been 11,500 casualties and its still touch and go.
In fact, Iran will have the A-bomb soon; Syria is now operating fearlessly. I’m for the fight, but I wonder if we look at things coldly enough.
there have been some spectacular successes–but OBL and his team are still free.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:51 pm 100. Paul:Steven Mitchell:
“It’s not being wrong that alienates the “educated elite” from the Jacksonians. Rather, it’s that so many of the elites are rude and dishonorable.”
In other words, French.
Jan 12, 2005 - 9:56 pm 101. Samuel:mudmarine
Thank You. I’ve been busy and will continue to be, please don’t encourage me… I coach High School Varsity Sports (Basketball and Baseball), am in the process of moving my family and bulding a new home with my own unskilled hands (for the sake of experiance, I am nuts). I run a business and have five children, so what the hell is time anyway? Good thing I need little sleep!
Jan 12, 2005 - 11:58 pm 102. Ron Wrght:Roger,
Hey, here’s that guy that wears the “tinfoil hat” and infuriates some folks here. Haven’t been abducted by aliens this week yet. :–)
DITTO DITTO AMEN BROTHER PODHORETZ
I totally agree with Mr. Podhoretz but I’m not totally convinced he, VDH, and Krauthammer haven’t been reading my previous rants! Great minds do think alike.
I’ve piece an anthology of essays on our site that convey the same thoughts and conclusions as Mr. Poheretz has.
In short to win this war we must demonstrate to the world our ideology that values the free will of men and women and certain inalienable rights is superior to that of our enemy’s because of which is still locked and stagnated in the 12th Century.
Ron Wright, Moderator
HSPIG Forums Site
http://www.hspig.org
PS: please help fact check Matsumoto’s new book, “Vaccine-A.” The DOD’s anthrax vaccine is the causal factor in Gulf War Syndrome observed in our svs personnel.
See the anthrax discussion forum on our site
*****
An Anthology of Essays
WWIV – The War Against Islamofascisim
A War of Ideas, Ideologies, Cultures, Religon, and Good vs. Evil
This war will not be won on the ground. This war will be won when the enemy and its supporters realize this ideology of hate, repression of free will and thought is doomed to failure like its predecessors of Fascisim, Nazism, and Communism.
We will win this war. The free will of men and women will always overcome those who seek to repress it – As Good always triumph over Evil. The sooner we as a people unite both left and right and wipe this Evil from the face of the earth, the fewer lives will be lost in this struggle.
While we are crushing the enemy on the ground, the enemy is winning the propaganda war. To win this war we must “out” the lies that our enemy is using to subjugate the people by fear, repression and torture. We must flood all mediums of communication with the truth. We must nuture the people in forming their own independent forms of news of the day.
For once the truth be known, the power of the “Big Lie” to control quickly fades away and there can be no more “Final Solutions.”
Blessed be for the Net and the Blogosphere. The ultimate weapon against this Evil.
–
FREEDOM – Thanks to the Greatest Generation for Perserving It
Link Here
GEO-POLITICAL STRATEGIC ANALYSIS ON WAR ON TERROR
Link Here
THE WAR ON TERRORISM – A War of Ideas
Link Here
The MSM is Rooting for the Enemy!
Link Here Here
Iraq, Libya, and N. Korea almost built Islamic Nuke
Link Here
[Smallpox] A Gap in Local Bioterrorism Response
Link Here
Rules of war enable terror
Link Here
The Event Clock is Ticking . . .
Link Here
The Traditional Law Enforcement/Criminal Justice System Paradigm Is Ill Prepared to Fight this War On Terror
Link Here
THE POWER AND POLITICS OF BLOGS – Blessed Be for the Internet and the Blogosphere
Link Here
IRAN – MULLAHS ABOUT TO STONE 13 YEAR-OLD GIRL
Link Here
Jan 13, 2005 - 12:24 am 103. PeterUK:A study of the distribution of Mitochondrial DNA might reveal some surprises.Since this is passed only through the mother it can give an accurate picture of migration patterns.Oh course some might get a bit of a shock.
Jan 13, 2005 - 1:36 am 104. chuck:Samuel:
am in the process of moving my family and bulding a new home with my own unskilled hands
Don’t do it, man, for the sake of G*d and your own sanity. Oops, too late
Jan 13, 2005 - 6:20 am 105. Percy Dovetonsils:I take heart from the comments here. My dour German-Catholic heritage does prejudice me towards seeing the worst of any situation.
I’m now reminded of Mike Myers’ line in (I believe) So I Married An Axe Murderer: “If it’s not Scottish, it’s crap!”
Jan 13, 2005 - 6:26 am 106. jerry:trupeer:
I am also half-Canadian but I would disagree with you on the ethnic roots of pro and anti-American sentiment in Canada. I would bet that the descendents of Eastern European immigrants are the most pro-American group in Canada. Manitoba, Saskatchewan [my mother is from the tiny farm town of Lipton] and Alberta have large concentrations of Poles, Ukrainians, Romanians and an assortment of other Slavs. These three provinces are consistently the most pro-American in Canada.
Jan 13, 2005 - 6:28 am 107. flenser:I forgot the best counter-example; ‘Baghdad Jim’ McDermott.
It’s an entertaining idea, but I doubt that there is much empirical evidence backing it up.
Of course, what makes humans interesting is the ability of their beliefs to create new realities.
Jan 13, 2005 - 7:24 am 108. Caroline:Another Scotswoman here. Anderson – by way of Canada on my mother’s side. We also have a tartan, which if I’m not mistaken is actually the tartan of the Canadian RAF.
Check for yours here:
http://www.tartans.scotland.net/
That’s just one of many tartan sites on the internet. I had a great idea for X-mas – which was to obtain a yard of our family tartan, cut it into squares, then mat and frame it and give it to my mother and siblings (who are unaware that we have a family tartan). Alas, being lazy, I never got around to it!
Jan 13, 2005 - 10:31 am 109. ambisinistral:Percy Dovetonsils,
Hehehe… don’t feel bad. I’m of Eastern European ancestry (and fairly recent — I grew up in an immigrant neighborhood). I’m always partial to the Balkan view of “wheels within wheels” to keep things interesting.
Jan 13, 2005 - 12:33 pm 110. truepeers:Jerry,
You may be right – you’re attributing this to the cold war affect I suppose. More generally, it is something of a mystery why Alberta and Saskatchewan, with similar immigrant demographics, have had such different political histories, with Sask much more left than Alberta. Anyway, the pro-and anti-Americanism thing is very difficult to judge because a lot of Canadians are both. They may, e.g., hate the Bush admin, yet still feel a common bond with Americans. Many Maritime Canadians identify with New England, and I imagine many of them are like the blue states, anti-Bush. The Canadian polls that I remember had Quebecers most commonly against the recent Iraq war; but Quebecers love to visit Maine and Florida and identify with Americans in lots of ways. As for the Canadian Scots-Irish, some have a tradition of anti-Americanism because of their loyalty to the crown, and to Canadian difference that date from the first American civil war; yet at the same, time they can identify with their USAmerican ethnic kin in numerous ways. For this and other reasons, there was a fair bit of tolerance for southerners in the various British North American colonies during the second American civil war, though I suppose fear of the northern army was paramount. Anyway, it’s a tough one to unpack.
Jan 13, 2005 - 12:46 pm 111. Catherine:Richard M
If he wanted to be Irish that badly, then as far as we’re concerned, he’s Irish
That is beautiful!
I’m writing that down in my chapbook.
Thank you!
Jan 13, 2005 - 12:58 pm 112. Catherine:Chuck
Hard scrabble independent settlers, yes, honor, no
The Scots-Irish were seriously hard-scrabble.
How much of an honor culture are they?
I don’t know what to think about that. They definitely had a code . . . but they’re not an honor/shame culture; they were Calvinists . . . hmm. Interesting.
Did Scots-Irish have a dueling tradition?
They had a feuding tradition; that’s for sure.
Jan 13, 2005 - 1:01 pm 113. Terrye:I am Irish, German, English and Cherokee.
I read somewhere that what Patrick Henry really meant when he said give me liberty or give me death was leave me alone or I will kill you. That is Scots Irish.
Jan 13, 2005 - 1:07 pm 114. Catherine:Steven M
Oh, I see what you’re saying, I think.
Fascinating post.
Assuming I know what you’re saying, this is exactly the way I feel.
I don’t particularly object to the anti-Iraq POV.
I object to all the insults that come with it.
Jan 13, 2005 - 1:10 pm 115. Steven Mitchell:Catherine, I think it’s the combination of rude and dishonorable that really sets folks off. I saw this mentioned somewhere today, but forget where–how Willie Nelson practically campaigns for Kunich and gets no flack while the Dipsy Flicks get practically run out of country music for a few comments about the President.
The usual suspects were screaming about a double standard. I said from the very beginning that it wasn’t what they said that got those gals in trouble. Rather, they were known jerks mouthing off in front of a foreign audience. Rude and dishonorable. Even so, a sincere apology after the fact would have bailed them out.
I guess that whole, “is the Jacksonian culture honor-bound or not?” question relates to my point. It’s not really a “face” culture, as in pre-WWII Japan, though it has a lot of “face” elements to it. There’s a lot of forgiveness for dishonorable actions due to being wrong or perhaps merely stupid (up to a point). And being rude yet honorable is sometimes called for (according to some). Repeated rudeness coupled with repeated dishonorable behavior, however, is seen as evidence that the person knows better. It’s hard to be truly rude and not know what you are doing. And of course, the demonstratively stupid get some slack. But there’s a reason why, “educated beyond his intelligence” is a particularly common jibe around here.
Jan 13, 2005 - 2:56 pm 116. Steven Mitchell:I should also point out, that whatever else people may think about President Bush, only his most frothing at the most opponents argue that he is anything other than honorable and polite. It’s practically the holy trinity of Texan, right up there with that swagger they call walkin’.
Jan 13, 2005 - 2:59 pm 117. Steven Mitchell:ugh, frothing at the “mouth”.
Jan 13, 2005 - 3:01 pm 118. Frederick:Catherine,
1) Scots-Irish dueling tradition? Read a biography of Andrew Jackson. Or listen to Zell Miller.
2) Scots, Irish and “Scots-Irish.” The “Scots-Irish” were neither Scots nor Irish in any sense that has meaning today. They first lived on both sides of the changing border between the Roman empire and the Picts, between the kingdoms of England and Scotland, forever the most lawless part of Britain. They emigrated to America in the 18th c. from the Scottish lowlands, the English border and Ulster, where many had settled in the 16th and 17th centuries. Those who lived in Boston or New York or Philadelphia looked at them in the same way that people who live in such cities look upon “Rednecks” or “Red State People” today. The Scots-Irish wanted nothing to do with such corrupt, honorless people, and settled in upstate New England and the Appalachians.
3) The “Scots-Irish” influence in America. Protestants. Not Slaveowners. For the Union. Against cities. They shaped America in a complex interaction with the New England Puritans, the Southern aristocrats, and central England emigrants to the Delaware River Valley, who ultimately became the default variety of Americans. The Scots-Irish and the southern aristocrats are American military power. Read David Hackett Fisher’s Albion’s seed, which explains, inter alia, how German, Italian, Irish and other immigrants became “Scots-Irish” when the immigrants settled among them.
4) “Scots-Irish.” The term always used in America for the group until recently was “Scotch-Irish.” I don’t know why Webb chose “Scots-Irish,” but I don’t like it. I suspect he chose it because of the relatively modern insistence of the northern British on being called “Scots” rather than “Scotch.” (”Scotch is a drink.”) Many generations of my ancestors stir in their graves scoffing at this affected nomenclature.
5) Add me to your list. Scotch-Irish and a dash of German. One of the lessons I’ve learned since 9/11 is that I’m Scotch-Irish not just to the bone, but into the marrow.
Hope the book is selling well.
Jan 13, 2005 - 3:49 pm 119. Catherine:Percy D
LOL!
Yes, you should take heart.
The Scots-Irish are the never-say-die people, it appears.
That was another ‘new angle’ on something that’s always puzzled me a little. Not infrequently I will have people tell me, ‘I don’t know how you do it.’ The other day I ran into a woman at Barnes & Noble whom I’d met in a knitting class, and by the time she told me me she didn’t know how I did it she sounded actually despairing. She was so shaken up I started to feel rude just standing there smiling.
I’m usually at a loss in these exchanges, because although I’m plenty frazzled I don’t have the sense that I’m more frazzled than anyone else I know who’s in the thick of raising kids. I’ve always been a little mystified myself over the question of ‘how I do it.’
Webb’s book has given me a whole new answer: the reason I can do it is that I like doing it! I have the ‘born fighting’ gene, and wrangling two autistic kids is nothing if not a daily war of all against all. I’m probably supposed to be doing this.
I’m guessing your basic Scots-Irish type gets bored without a challenge, and I don’t see them (us) running out of steam on the WOT any time soon.
Jan 13, 2005 - 6:57 pm 120. Steve J.:Thanks for the link to the NP articles. I began reading the first one and I was struck almost immediately by how ill-informed P is. Here’s just one example:
“The point I wish to stress is not that Clarke was
exaggerating or lying. It is that the attack on 9/11
did indeed come out of the blue in the sense that
no one ever took such a possibility seriously
enough to figure out what to do about it.“(pp. 18-19)
There were attempts to figure out what to do about it, as you can see from this excerpt from the 9-11 Final Report:
“Clarke had been concerned about the danger posed by aircraft since at least
the 1996 Atlanta Olympics. There he had tried to create an air defense plan
using assets from the Treasury Department, after the Defense Department
declined to contribute resources. The Secret Service continued to work on the
problem of airborne threats to the Washington region. In 1998, Clarke chaired
an exercise designed to highlight the inadequacy of the solution. This paper
exercise involved a scenario in which a group of terrorists commandeered a
Learjet on the ground in Atlanta, loaded it with explosives, and flew it toward
a target in Washington, D.C. Clarke asked officials from the Pentagon, Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA), and Secret Service what they could do about
the situation. Officials from the Pentagon said they could scramble aircraft from
Langley Air Force Base, but they would need to go to the President for rules
of engagement, and there was no mechanism to do so. There was no clear resolution
of the problem at the exercise.16
In late 1999, a great deal of discussion took place in the media about the
crash off the coast of Massachusetts of EgyptAir Flight 990, a Boeing 767.The
most plausible explanation that emerged was that one of the pilots had gone
berserk, seized the controls, and flown the aircraft into the sea. After the
1999?2000 millennium alerts, when the nation had relaxed, Clarke held a
meeting of his Counterterrorism Security Group devoted largely to the possibility
of a possible airplane hijacking by al Qaeda.17 ”
(911 Final Report, p. 345)
Jan 13, 2005 - 7:09 pm 121. Steve J.:(Continuation of my previous comment) NP provides another example of an obviously incorrect opinion here:
“The commission also spoke of a ?failure of imagination.?
Maybe so again; and yet the word ?failure?
seems inappropriate, implying as it does that success
was possible. (p. 19)
It’s NOT “maybe so,” it’s “definitely so,” as you can see from these excerpts:
Ms. Rice confirmed in 2002 that information picked up by U.S. intelligence services indicated that an attack might be made on Mr. Bush and other leaders at the July 2001 Group of Eight summit in Genoa, Italy. Former White House officials confirmed that in response to the warning, Italian authorities closed the local airport, restricted airspace and positioned surface-to-air missiles around the city. WSJ, 4/1/04
?FBI investigators visited two of the flight schools in 1996 after the plot was uncovered in the Philippines, school operators said. In 1998 and 1999, analysts warned federal officials that terrorists might crash hijacked aircraft into landmarks such as the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. Then, last July, the Italian government closed airspace over Genoa and mounted antiaircraft batteries based on information that Islamic extremists were planning to use an airplane to kill President Bush.
According to Italy’s Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini, in remarks reported by the Italian news agency ANSA, Italy told the Americans “that there was the possibility of an attack against the U.S. president using an airliner. That’s why we closed the airspace and installed the [antiaircraft] missiles” around the meeting site.
Because of the threat from jetliners, it has been standard operating procedure since the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 to create “no- fly zones” for high-profile occasions designated “National Security Special Events.” Others included the 50th anniversary summits of NATO and the United Nations. The no-fly zones are areas of restricted airspace defended by fighter jets and antiaircraft batteries?
Clues Pointed to Changing Terrorist Tactics; Foiled Plots, FBI Data Showed Al Qaeda Groups Might Use Airplanes as Missiles
Steve Fainaru. The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: May 19, 2002. pg. A.09
Jan 13, 2005 - 7:18 pm 122. Morgan:Steve J:
While portions of your posts may be interesting, I find the endless cut-and-pastes of material with little relevance to your stated points to be tiresome. In your last multi-part post you seem to be unaware that your articles undercut your theses regarding Podhoretz’s failings both times. I imagine that there is an argument you would like to make, but you are not making it.
Preprocess, please.
Jan 13, 2005 - 9:00 pm 123. AlanDownunder:The worst way to start WW4 in earnest was by a premature underprepared Iraq mission sold on WMD & Al Qaida pretexts which were inevitably found out.
If the true case for WW4 had been advanced from the outset there would have been no need for pretend urgency, there would have been time for proper planning and preparation, way less than 49% of the US would now be polarized against the administration and the eventual need for a draft would not have become so imminent.
WW4 is not going to be won by a leadership team which opens itself up to credible portrayal as an assortment of keystone cops, zionists, crusaders or cronies with a personal financial stake.
Podhoretz’ honesty and clarity is a lesson for the administration.
Jan 15, 2005 - 7:17 am 124. Steve J.:NP deploys a defensive tactic first used, I believe, by Condi Rice: deny that we knew EXACTLY what the terrorists would do. This is like excusing oneself for not stopping a drunk friend from driving because one had no idea he would run into THAT school bus.
In his own words:
“But not a shred of the documentary evidence cited by the Times for this categorical statement actually predicted that al Qaeda would hijack commercial airliners and crash them into buildings in New York and Washington.” (p.19)
Jan 22, 2005 - 5:46 am 125. Steve J.:NP uses another favorite tactic: deny that Clinton did anything worthwhile to fight threats to America:
“In April 1993, less than two months after that attack, former President Bush visited Kuwait, where an attempt was made to assassinate him by?as our own investigators were able to determine?Iraqi intelligence agents. The Clinton administration spent two more months seeking approval from the UN and the ?international community? to retaliate for this egregious assault on the United States. In the end, a few cruise missiles were fired into the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, where they fell harmlessly onto empty buildings in the middle of the night. (p. 21)
NP fails to mention that all those buildings were destroyed and that they housed the Mukhabarat, Iraq’s intelligence service.
Jan 22, 2005 - 5:53 am