41 Comments

1. socalgal:

The case in the US is even worse than Roger stated:

“The “turnout” percentage that is constantly being discussed in Iraq refers to the percentage of the population of eligible voters (total adult population)…

In America we only track “turnout” of registered voters. (Of which consist of roughly one third of eligible adults).

What does it mean? In America roughly 20% or less of the actual adult population† actually determine the presidential winner. In Iraq it will actually be somewhere between 60-70% of the actual adult population that will determine it. On this point the Iraqis are teaching us a boatload of lessons…”

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/kmc/?cal=go&adate=1%2F30%2F2005

I am humbled by the paltriness of our exercise of the hard won right to vote in this country.

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:03 am 2. RogerA:

I have noted an absolute paucity of trolls on the pro-freedom sites today–I presume they are in a state of shock; however, I also suspect they are waiting for the anti-freedom “analysis” of the election to be written for them. e.g. Kos, Juan Cole or their ilk.–Recall how the trolls had to wait until Democratic Party talking points were developed during the election.

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:20 am 3. richard mcenroe:

RogerA ó It’s like the scene from Monty Python’s “Life of Brian”

Brian: You must think for yourselves!

MOB (in absolute unison): Yes, we must think for ourselves!

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:29 am 4. Terrye:

richard:

I love Monty Python. The black night just sends me right over the edge. I laugh just thinking aobut it.

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:33 am 5. ex-democrat:

Cole, Kos, Kennedy et al: “It’s just a flesh wound!”

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:36 am 6. Terrye:

It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be.

So far it has been: this ain’t nothing and it will just keep getting worse. I have heard the word chaos bandied about.

Unless and until this tribal traumatized Muslim nation turns into the Luxembourg of the Arab world the naysayers left and right will not back off.

However, if they had their way and Saddam was still running the country he could kill and maim and bleed the people dry and they would not care. He could plot against the US and shoot at our planes to his heart’s content. He could hide his weapons programs and nourish the dream of genocide without a peep out of Chirac and Kennedy. But now that there has been an election everything has to be just so immediately.

It took four years to have an election in Germany, seven in Japan. And they were established countries with a strong sense of national identity.

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:41 am 7. Terrye:

ex democrat:

What are you gonna do, bleed on me?

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:44 am 8. ex-democrat:

“I’ll bite yer bum!”

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:56 am 9. Jamie Irons:

This is so exciting!

Yesterday I was wondering about the next moving of the goalposts by the MSM: what would it be?

At that very moment, the news quoted a “Democratic party spokesman” (I can’t recall or didn’t register who it was) who said, I kid you not:

“Whatever good comes out of this [Iraqi] election will be in spite of the failed policies of the Bush administration…” (!!!!)

And Terrye, another relevant scene in “Life of Brian” is the meeting of the “revolutionaries” who keep asking, “What have the Romans ever done for us?”

Substitute “Americans” for “Romans.”

Jamie Irons

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:59 am 10. charlotte:

Roger,

The Dems could correctly state that in some (heavily Democrat) counties in the US, Washington state, for example, voter participation numbers exceeded the number of registered voters. Let’s see Iraq top that!

Jan 30, 2005 - 11:31 am 11. Robert Crawford:

“I have noted an absolute paucity of trolls on the pro-freedom sites today”

Perhaps not the anonymous trolls, but the ones who troll with their real names are out in force at balloon-juice.

Jan 30, 2005 - 11:33 am 12. mcg:

I am firmly pro-Bush and am celebrating this joyous day for the Iraqis with no qualification.

But let me just say I get tired of people lamenting that our voter turnout is “only” 50%. Our turnout is just fine, thanks. Low turnout need not immediately be interpreted as an expression of apathy, but can as an indication of how much the voter populace believes that the election matters. Contrast this election with others in recent past.

And yet, can anyone honestly argue that any one of our elections is nearly as important as the one that the Iraqi’s just held? I should hope not, and I should expect that the voter turnout would be higher than ours.

Furthermore, those that don’t turn out choose by default to put the country’s decision-making in the hands of those that do. And I’m sure there’s a strong correlation between civic awareness and voter participation—in other words, people that vote are smarter about the world than those that don’t, on average. So to the voters that stay home, I’d say that on average we are better for it. If some issue proves important enough to fire then up to hit the polls, that’s fine too.

And that brings me to my last point. Having a buffer of “silent” citizens motivates the political parties to, well, pander to their base. I’m not entirely against that; we do, after all, elect them to represent us. Registration drives and get-out-the-vote efforts, though now recently tainted by fraud, I think are both a genuine civic service and a valuable campaign tool.

Jan 30, 2005 - 11:39 am 13. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Darn! mcg beat me too it. I agree with all but nuances the last paragraph.

To me, voter registration drives and get-out-the-vote efforts should not be seen as non-partisan good citizenship, but as partisan efforts to get out the base.

People should vote on their own. A voter registration drive is the wrong thing – it gets people who don’t care enough to do it without urging. Same with “get-out-the-vote.” In general, I view these drives as Democrat partisan efforts, since the lazy and uninformed tend to vote Democratic (please do not infer the reverse, btw). The Democrats also pushed motor-voter, which was designed to let illegal aliens vote in addition to making it easy for the lazy.

My view: To get a voting card, you have to present good identification – proof of citizenship. The card should be as unforgeable as possible – which is possible with today’s technology at a low cost (which the VOTER should pay unless proven indigent).

One should be required to vote in person – the criteria for absentee vote should be as strict as that for getting out of jury duty. This not only helps prevent voter fraud, but it makes the voter part of a civic process, which has important symbolic and emotional purposes. We saw this in Iraq.

======= On Iraqi turnout =======

I have noticed that Fox is favorably comparing the turnout rate to US turnout rates, although it is not clear to me if they are talking percentage of citizens in Iraq vs. registered voters here, or are doing it right. In other words, did 60 or 70% of Iraqi citizens vote? If so, that is an incredible tribute to the Iraqis!

If they have are comparing apples and oranges, email from a good percentage of the readers of this blog should correct that:

General FOX News Channel E-Mail Addresses

Viewer Services

Viewerservices@foxnews.com

FOX News Channel Comments

Comments@foxnews.com

FOXNews.com Comments (website)

Foxnewsonline@foxnews.com

CNN appears to have figured out that their spin is too negative, at least from my limited sampling. Blitzer just forced himself to say it is better than the dismal turnout that was forecast, or some such attempt to compromise his desire to report a disaster and his growing realization that everyone else is watching FOX talk about the historic event

Jan 30, 2005 - 11:59 am 14. Libby Spencer:

I might point out that in 1824, only white landowners were allowed to vote. When you exclude blacks, women and the poor, 26.9 is a pretty good turnout but it doesn’t accurately reflect the will of the people.

As far as Iraq I’m willing to give them their due today. I’m as progressive left as they come and I think it was damn courageous for them to show up to the polls. However, I’m not ready to pop champagne corks over this “victory for democracy” just yet.

I’ll spare your readers the text of my post on the subject but in case anyone wants a pragmatist’s view here’s a link to the Detroit News Politics Weblog.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:18 pm 15. Lola:

Wow . . . Christohper Hitchens is being very harsh on his colleagues in the press . . . as should be.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:27 pm 16. PJ:

My morning paper managed to print a photo of Lyndie England, an article about Abu Ghraib and, oh, yes, a headline about the elections “marred by violence.”

“sigh*

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:34 pm 17. Wallace:

As we used to say in the 60’s………POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

Ok, I didn’t say that but some of my hippie friends did.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:35 pm 18. Wes:

I hope someone is running Tivo on C-SPAN so we can get a transcript of Hitchens’ comments on the MSM. He isn’t letting up, and it’s just scathing. Go, Chris.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:52 pm 19. RogerA:

Libby–Thanks for the observation (s). Unlike some who regard the comments on this blog as partisan gloating and point-scoring, I dont believe that is the case. I am glad that you as a progressive lefty remain true to what the progressive left used to stand for. I, personally, dont think there are many of you left. And while I certainly would not venture to speak for the folks on this blog, I think we regard these elections as a victory over thuggish intimidation, and we recognize that it is only a very tentative first step in a much longer and more difficult road.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:55 pm 20. mcg:

In general, I view these drives as Democrat partisan efforts, since the lazy and uninformed tend to vote Democratic (please do not infer the reverse, btw).

They are partisan, but most certainly not Democractic. It is my understanding that in the last two elections, the Republican GOTV efforts have been quite powerful and instrumental in their success.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:57 pm 21. mcg:

Just to clarify, I do think that the recent registration drives are more heavily Democratic. If you had meant to distinguish between the two I apologize.

Jan 30, 2005 - 12:59 pm 22. rightwinger:

Much is being made of the level of violence in this election and the potential to disenfrancise voters.

The most recent election in India resulted in 100’s of deaths, and yet very little (maybe zero) comment in the media about whether that election was legitimite. In fact that election was trumpeted as a huge leap forward because of the vast reductio in violence compared to previous elections. I would be interested in seeing an analysis of the history of violence in elections in established democracies like India, relative to Iraq

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:11 pm 23. Mark Poling:

Terrye:

However, if they had their way and Saddam was still running the country he could kill and maim and bleed the people dry and [the Left] would not care.

For once I think you’re wrong. If Sadaam were still in power and starving children and draining marshes and shredding athletes etc. etc….

It would be the United States’ fault. After all, back in the 80’s Donald Rumsfeld visited Iraq.

You’re missing the critical element here, I think. Hell, parts of the loonier left think the recent tsunami was America’s — or at least the developed world’s — fault.

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:14 pm 24. Katherine:

Jamie, yesterday my husband and I were trying to remember all those things that ìRomans have done for usî. Peace was one item, as I recall.

Now, as soon as we see Yanki ite domum written on the walls of Baghdad (at least 100 times) we will know that our job is done.

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:24 pm 25. Morgan:

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch continues to fight the good fight. Here’s today’s headline:

“Iraqis vote amid attacks

But little if any turnout is reported in Sunni areas”

They add, “What to watch for as Iraqis tally ballots: If election is bloody, some experts say civil war is a possibility.”

Good for them, stick to your guns and all that. Wouldn’t want to be seen as cheerleading for democracy and freedom.

Incidentally, Jamie Irons, terrye and others – I rented and watched Life of Brian last night. Laughed so much my wife would have thought I had lost it, had she not been convinced of that years ago.

If anyone hasn’t read the post over at Iraq the Model, please do. Grab some Kleenex first.

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:29 pm 26. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

mcg,

Agreed – the Republicans finally caught on to the get-out-the-vote trick.

CNN is now telling us all the original goals that weren’t met, so we will know that in spite of this election, Iraqis are miserable and its all our fault and we should pull out and hang W and…

Hey, at least Saddam made the trains run on time, right?

Well, we should watch FOX

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:34 pm 27. PeterUK:

The EU elections were not a sparkling event so Iraq has done extremely well by the standards of any democratic nation. better,http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jun2004/euro-j15.shtml

Excuse th site seemed to have useful figures.

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:36 pm 28. RogerA:

A trip down memory lane: recall the electric grid problems? When was the last time anyone read an MSM piece about the status of electricity in Iraq. The same phenomenom will obtain: as Iraq moves toward constitutional government–in whatever form–the elections kerfluffle will fade from the MSM memory. Shame on them all.

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:45 pm 29. Katherine:

Reading Omar and Mohammed post describing their feelings when they went to cast their first ballot in freedom reminded me my own first experience with free elections. I came out of that voting booth trembling and with tears in my eyes. ìEventually, the call of freedom comes to every mind and every soul.î Even though the clerisy may proclaim that some people are ìnot readyî for it.

RogerA

Donít forget that when Iraq gets that constitutional government we will hear that it would have had happened anyway because Iraqis were obviously ready for overthrow of Saddam without our help. Why, our military presence made it worse because without the coalition forces there would not have been any need for the ìinsurgencyî.

The headlines and articles just write themselves.

Jan 30, 2005 - 1:56 pm 30. Terrye:

Mark:

No doubt you are right. On the other thread Coisty is railing because our elites send young men off to die for no good reason. Oh yeah. If we go it is wrong, but if we don’t go and the lights go out or thi kids don;t have medicine..who do they blame?

Nobody likes to be held responsible for things they have no control over.

Jan 30, 2005 - 2:09 pm 31. Terrye:

Jamie:

I liked Life of Brian but I think the Holy Grail was my favorite.

Bring out your dead.

Jan 30, 2005 - 2:13 pm 32. Rick Ballard:

Roger,

Best data on US elections says 60.7%. An Iraqi vote total (which won’t be available for at least a few days) of 7.2 million will equal the US percentage. I’m betting on an Iraqi vote total of about 7.7 million for a 65% turnout.

Jan 30, 2005 - 2:34 pm 33. Katherine:

I found this bit in The Corner:

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/corner.asp

ìIn the less well organized 1925 election in Iraq, out of 3 million people, 10 million voted. The turnout was 300% because the sheiks wanted to create the illusion of larger tribes than they actually had. This led to the first accurate nationwide census.î

300% – that is a dream turnout, isnít it? Compare this with todayís paltry results! Iíd say that we have found the golden standard against the Iraqi election should be judged.

Jan 30, 2005 - 2:49 pm 34. RobbyS:

Off-year elections in the United States shows a turnout far less than a majority. Yet in most respects this is a good thing, because the voters are personally the most qualified. .

Jan 30, 2005 - 3:04 pm 35. RogerA:

Terrye: re Coisty’s railings, I took the liberty of posting a personal memory of good men doing great things–its on the other thread.

Jan 30, 2005 - 3:26 pm 36. richard mcenroe:

Katherine ó 300%… well, Milwaukee tried its best…

Jan 30, 2005 - 3:44 pm 37. Terrye:

Roger:

I saw that. very good.

I don’t know what got into Coisty, he is usually very reasonable. I guess some folks were hoping for something different today.

Jan 30, 2005 - 4:28 pm 38. Yehudit:

“I have noted an absolute paucity of trolls on the pro-freedom sites today–I presume they are in a state of shock;”

They are very feisty over at Jeff Jarvis.

Jan 30, 2005 - 6:22 pm 39. Sir Lee:

Registered vs. Eligible

Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s true that we report as a percentage of registered instead of eligible voters. Even if it is true, the number of registered votes is a lot closer to eligible then 1 out of 3. There were over 121 million votes cast for Bush or Kerry last year. If that only represented 20% of the eligible population then there would be 605 million eligible voters in the US. There were 286.19 million people in the last census.

Understand I’m not being the least bit critical of the results, I think 60% of Iraqis voting is absolutely amazing! I don’t disagree with the sentiment at all, I just didn’t think the earlier statement about 20% sounded right, so I ran the numbers.

Jan 30, 2005 - 10:36 pm 40. Knucklehead:

I’ll join with a few others who have mentioned that “low” voter turnout in the US does not bother me in the least.

Even if the entire reason our turnout is so low is apathy, so what? Apathy is a lack of interest or concern. If someone has no interest in our elections I’d just as soon they stay home and keep their vote to themselves. And a lack of concern suggests that some people feel pretty darned safe that whoever runs the government won’t do them any harm. Apathy is not necessarily a bad thing – no doubt we can all find many things we are apathetic about. We leave the management of those things to the folks who have and interest in those things or are concerned about them.

Jan 31, 2005 - 10:30 am 41. John Anderson:

What is meaningful here is not the raw numbers. Saddam posted higher turnouts. But then, as in many “elected” dictatorships, the guns were used to get people TO the polls, now they are used to keep people FROM the polls – and a majority went anyway.

Jan 31, 2005 - 7:50 pm

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