21 Comments

1. TedM:

Darfur is just the latest example of the uselessness of the UN. As long as there is a Muslim state bloc of votes and the Arab League, no Islamic controlled state will ever be accused of genocide. The weasel words in the treaty are “intent”. As long as the government in the Sudan says they deplore the violence and blame it on “outlaws” the UN will not declare that the events in the Sudan qualify as genocide.

And what response can the US give? Certainly not unilateral action. The very people who are most concerned about intervening in the Sudan are those who lashed out hysterically at us for “unilateral” “unprovoked” “illegal” action.They set their standard as UN approval of American action. And so it has come full circle for them. The UN will not approve, so what is the US to do.

Thus far, the only action I have seen mentioned is a case to be brought before the ICC. I leave it for others to discuss the futility of that.

Before long, we shall see bumper stickers “Save Darfur”. And, of course, somehow or another, George Bush and the neo-cons will be to blame.

Feb 23, 2005 - 11:43 am 2. Knucklehead:

Must not violate the Prime Directive:

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no United Nations personnel may interfere with the healthy abuse and destruction of Third World life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. United Nations personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, unless to save the lives and/or the regimes of Kleptocrats in Good Standing or to counter an action or contamination of said culture by the Great Satan, the Evil Hegemon. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest immoral obligation.

Feb 23, 2005 - 12:16 pm 3. chuck:

What will really stop this genocide is indignation.

Right. Kristof mentions sanctions, no-fly zones, the ICC, but what will really do the trick is *indignation*. Well, indignation may help Kristof to feel good about himself, but it isn’t going to help anyone unless it pushes someone else, someone who isn’t Kristof, to apply some real coercion and maybe military force.

Kristof writes well, he espouses good causes, but he never has any useful solutions. At the same time he shies away from anything that involves force and undercuts the military and the party of action. I’m sorry, I just don’t see what he has to offer that is going to help anyone.

Feb 23, 2005 - 12:23 pm 4. Kevin P:

Roger:

The leaders of Sudan have learned what Milosevic,the Dear Leader, and Saddam have known for years. That you can commit virtually any tradegy and as long as you stand up to the UN they will wail and moan, write resolutions, but in the end they will do NOTHING to remove you from power. Sudan is the perfect time for all those leaders who cry that the US should have let the UN control Saddam to show what they can do to control the murderous thugs of the world. And what have they done. Nothing. Just like Rwanda they will cry crocodile tears, set up commisions of study, and then after the genocide is done they will blame the US for doing nothing. They want us to consult them and get their approval but they will sacrafice nothing. The Army of the Susan is not some juggernaught that would be difficult for the combined forces of the UN to put down but they will still do nothing because they are an organization that has developed into a defense team for the status qou. This is exactly why President Bush did not wait for the UN to get rid of Saddam because he knew it would never happen. Sudan is the perfect example of the multi-national UN approach. Study the tragedy while it is going on, do nothing, then produce a hand wringing report after the slaughter is finished about how “this will never be allowed to happen again.” Until it does happen again and the whole sick cycle of hypocrasy starts again.

Feb 23, 2005 - 12:29 pm 5. Knucklehead:

Chuck,

But won’t indignation generate a whole lotta karmic energy? Wouldn’t it be similar to gathering a shitload of people onto a high alpine pasture and singing, “I’d like to buy the world a clue”? Positive thinking, dude!

Feb 23, 2005 - 12:31 pm 6. heather:

I am in the middle of a study of Churchill’s “The River War”, and have been surprised to find that Darfur was almost always an independent entity over there far to the west of the Nile valley.

Further, the whole area has an economy and society built on the slave trade. Good ol’ Chinese Gordon fought rather effectively against all that, and lost his head as a result.

The point being? Unfortunately, the need for oil has sent tons of western money into slave- holding, women-killing regions of the earth (now including the Sudan)… and these ‘cultures’ are thus financially able to spread their great ideas – and societies – from north africa and the middle east even unto Florida and Europe.

Anyway, Bush and company are right in that this is going to be a very long war – because the world is very much smaller than it was in 1898 when Winston and the 21st Lancers made the last cavalry charge of the British Army, at the battle of Omdurman.

And we truly need to find a way to maintain our industrial base WITHOUT that Oil.

Feb 23, 2005 - 12:59 pm 7. heather:

and I forgot to point out that these new rich slaveholding women-killing societies are using the United Nations to justify their expansion and consequent depredations through our world.

Feb 23, 2005 - 1:01 pm 8. Keith_Indy:

Hey, don’t forget to add Liberia to your list of bloody civil wars which the UN did nothing about, and which the US did (even if belatedly.)

If you have a chance the Discovery Times channel has a documentary about the Liberian situation and how it unfolded, as viewed by a documentarian, who was with the rebels as they advanced on the capital.

http://times.discovery.com/convergence/liberia/liberia.html

*****

As far as indignation goes, I’m going to give Kristof the benefit of the doubt on this one. I assume he means we should use the energy of our indignation to contact our representatives and raise holy hell that more should be done.

Of course, for those who oppose unilateral American action, what course of action could they support. Send more “observers”? How about they put-up-or-shut-up, as I’ve heard from them everytime it comes to the use of military force Because I did not have the foresight in my teens to join the Armed Forces but would gladly do so now. Not my fault I’m 40 and they wont take me (which makes me a chicken-hawk, of course).

Have Peace Corp volunteers increased since 9/11??? If not why not?

For the rest of us, we should not simply throw the hot potatoe to the UN, because we know what they will do (TALK), and what they wont do (STOP THE KILLING.)

So while being smug about knowing the true state of things (or the truer state of things) may bring a sort of satisfaction, I’d rather we did something about the problem, and then slap each other on the backs. Knowing that we did the right thing at the right time.

Feb 23, 2005 - 1:02 pm 9. Keith_Indy:

Oh, and the point about Liberia. That documentary showed what was happening in a much clearer way then the American media did.

Once again, because the American people weren’t fully informed, we didn’t get riled up to do something about it.

Feb 23, 2005 - 1:06 pm 10. Knucklehead:

I’m becoming increasingly sick of this sort of statement by Kristof or anyone else:

This African Union archive is classified, but it was shared with me by someone who believes that Americans will be stirred if they can see the consequences of their complacency.

The pictures Kristof wants us to look at show us, Americans and everyone who sees them, the consequences of the actions of the murdering scumbags who killed those people. How to go about stopping such people from doing murdering is a valid topic for discussion but I will not accept those murders as the consequence of either my action or inaction.

That said, the US is otherwise engaged at the moment. Any number of individual nations or combinations of nations has sufficient power of whatever form they choose to employ to go to Darfur and stop the slaughter. It’s time for France, Germany, Russia, China, India, Japan and on and on and on to step up and behave as if they are responsible citizens of this planet and take on some of the nasty, ugly work required to make it a better place.

Feb 23, 2005 - 1:09 pm 11. heather:

I don’t like to rain on this parade, but I will anyway. Indignation is fine. It is a wonderful thing to become aware, really aware, of the gawdawful reality of places like the Sudan and Saudi Arabia.

However, aside from blowing the whole area up (not a bad idea, I think in the middle of the night, contemplating the sheer awfulness of those societies)…

diplomacy? Bush sent Danforth over, who stopped the mayhem in southern Sudan (mainly by chatting up with the one civilized leader in Africa, Museveni of Uganda). I wonder if it is coincidental that it is now, the Sudanese are attacking, murdering and enslaving the western Darfur-ians? And just where are these slaves being sold anyway? I mean, supply always implies demand, and in between there is money, is there not?

how about above board intervention? Well, China is in like flynn, pumping out the oil; France has been dabbling in the area for decades (diamonds, Rwandan genocide). Remember what happened to Chinese Gordon.

I am not saying something cannot be done – but I have much more faith in Bush’s war on terror the way it is playing out now – special forces, buying off the good people of the desert, etc.

And finally, it is time for the UN headquarters to be moved to its real centre of power: how about Riyadh, folks?

Feb 23, 2005 - 1:18 pm 12. Wallace:

A coalition of multi-demoninational church groups in my [and President Bush's] hometown of Midland Texas have been working to keep this issue on the forefront of both national and international conciousness for quite sometime now. Here’s what Rich Lowry had to say about our efforts last May. National Review Online

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:11 pm 13. mwalls:

I figure Sudan’s government has about as much chance as the Madhii had against Kitchner if any professional force intervenes.

[sarcasm warning]

So anybody think to get a quote from Blackwater on doing a cleanup job?

[end sarcasm]

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:21 pm 14. Terrye:

I remember reading some article about the West being complicit in the Sudanese civil war because the West as well as China was doing business with the government. I read this article shortly after 9/11. Now how long ago has that been?

So the situation has deteriorated for years and now we are facing genocide and it is time to get indignant? Why now? Why not years ago? And why us? Only 45% of Americans believe it is our duty to spread democracy abroad. That is because spreading democracy usually means we make the sacrifice and someone else burns our flag. And while stopping a genocide is not spreading democracy we all know that as long as the murdering thieves that run that place continue to run it nothing short of killing them or threatening to will probably stop them. It is the nature of the beast.

So where is the EU on this? I mean maybe if they work at it they can get as upset about this slaughter as they did about Abu Ghraib.

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:26 pm 15. heather:

Wallace, thanks for that description of Midland’s Christian efforts in the Sudan.

And, Ann Coulter has received nothing but sneering quiet for her contention that one answer is to spread Christianity among the Islamists. However, I think she is correct.

And I also think that serious engagement with women killing and slave holding will come primarily through efforts by Christians. I have seen little action by Jews in this, aside from their rescue of fellow Jews from Islamist ghettos.

The secular humanitarians of the NGOS and the UN, and etc., know a good SUV when they see it.. and beyond that are in the way. To repeat myself, they should move their splendid headquarters to Riyadh.

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:29 pm 16. Knucklehead:

Terrye,

Apparently the Euros have spent all their indignation on AG and Guantanomo. A coalition of Andorra, Luxemburg, and Monaco could probably raise enough “peacekeeping” power to put paid to the Sudanese murderers but there’s not enough residual indignation after dealing with the horrors committed by the Unilateral Imperialist Hegemon.

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:33 pm 17. TedM:

Terrye,

The Euros are totally committed to the UN, World Government and International Law. All of the unworkable instituations that they hide behind in order to not have to take military action.

I heard a lecture by Gerard Baker of the London Times last night. He said that Europe is committed to negotiations even when they know full well that negotiation will not work. Their worldview is that whatever happens will happen and they only want to maintain the status quo.

Wallace,

Where I live, Jacksonville, FL the local churches have supported the Lost Boys of The Sudan. We have a number of the “boys” living here. They work, attend school and appear at benefits and awareness meetings. These church groups support thousands of them throughout the US.

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:34 pm 18. OJ:

You are asbolutely right Roger. The US is seen by the rest of the world as having a responsibility to stop atrocities and send aid in times of disaster. Yet, when our efforts fall short or something goes wrong, every one blames the US. We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

Here is what we had to say about it a few weeks back.

http://www.rightviews.com/article.php?id=262

Feb 23, 2005 - 2:46 pm 19. Terrye:

TedM;

Well if your view is that whatever happens will happen then it probably will.

Knucklehead:

I dunno I saw some Germans in the streets today with their clever banners an signs etc and they were doing their best to be indignant. Of course it had nothing to do with a real genocide, only the make believe one in their sad little heads. They were so big and bad and brave.

Feb 23, 2005 - 4:31 pm 20. Neo:

No [Sudanese] Blood for [French] Oil

Feb 23, 2005 - 6:44 pm 21. Mike_Nargizian:

Is there a more pathetic and almost contemptable figure than Koffi Annan? He’s worse than a Corporate hack bureacrat? At least they have balls… Koffi has nothing, a lost leftist hack fronting for his despotic backers in the Middle East and Africa….

Now if Sudan had taken out a Hamas Leader in a perfect strike without killing any innocents, than Koffi would demand and get an immediate UN Security Council Resolution done LICKITY SPLIT.

However, Arab/Muslim militias slaughtering his own brethren… well well Koffi has to have some tea with Gov’t officials in a posh hotel and simply make a self-important soul searching comment on it…

UN and Europe are like the college professor who does nothing of consequence when it counts bcs he can only pontificate within a vacuum of saftey when there is no crisis, from which he becomes a zealot at criticizing his own gov’t and way of life and a weakling on criticizing anything of real substance.

Many here and the center left would take Koffi back and eulogize him in a second if he simply a made 1 semi decent statement… but Koffi is simply a weakling and hack.. not the guy you want running your gov’t, army, in a foxhole or someone you ever want to count on…

HE’S SIMPLY PATHETIC

NOTE -

1) UN was created for the sole purpose of

PREventing Genocide.

2) Sudanese Government Militias of Arab Muslims

from the North are mass slaughtering Southern

Blacks Muslim and Xtian.

3) Kofi Annan & the UN did nothing about Rwandan

Genocide – swore wouldn’t let it happen

again? 2 MILLION and Counting so far….

Murdered, raped, hacked or fled to other

countries.

4)Sudan actually sits on the “UN ‘Human Rights’

Commission” – Communist China, Syria and Cuba

as well. THIS IS THE UN 2005!

5)Arab & African Countries blocked a

condemnation of Sudan recently.

Kofi Annan and Europeans did NOTHING…

6)Kofi Annan avoided using word Genocide

commenting on Sudan. The WORD requires

immediate UN action by UN Charter

- That would infuriate Kofi’s main backers,

Middle Eastern and African Dictators.

Feb 23, 2005 - 9:26 pm

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