… have yielded death in the streets of Kabul. This lgf post prompted me to go back to the original Newsweek article by Michael Isikoff and John Berry that alleges a Quran was flushed down a Guantanamo toilet (the proximate cause of the carnage in Kabul). It comes from an anonymous source! For their sakes, I hope Isikoff and Barry’s source proves to be accurate because who would want these deaths on their conscience? The NYT recently went on a crusade against anonymously sourced reporting. So should Newsweek. So should we all.
UPDATE: For those with difficulty getting the Newsweek link, cache here.
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35 Comments
1. neo-neocon:I am afraid that the use of anonymous sources has made the MSM into a sort of glorified gossip column–a gossip column with teeth, as we see here.
May 11, 2005 - 10:35 am 2. Dymphna:gossip columns with teeth but very little brain.
Haven’t read Newsweek or Time in years. Spend long enough in the blogosphere and you realize how humdrum MSM writing is.
If any blogger posted this, he’d be flamed, and rightly so…but: “we’re the MSM, we don’t have to care.”
May 11, 2005 - 11:19 am 3. HenryB:I recall that MAD magazine always parodied the “news” magazine in question by calling it “Newsweak”. I guess it fits.
May 11, 2005 - 11:26 am 4. trainer:Hey, no problemo….We report, you riot.
Dozens of people are dead as a direct result of irresponsible journalism. These pukes won’t show 9/11 footage because they don’t want to inflame American opinion against the extremist enemy.
Inflaming the extremist enemy against America is okey-dokey tho.
May 11, 2005 - 11:47 am 5. Buddy Larsen:Hey, way to go, NEWSWEEK! Killer article!
May 11, 2005 - 11:53 am 6. Eric Akawie:Even if the report was false, I still can’t condemn Newsweek nearly as much as a culture where destruction of a copy of a book, no matter how revered would cause this kind of reaction.
Would Christians anywhere riot over such an act -committed thousands of miles away? (I admit I could see it happening if it occurred in person.)
Would Jews anywhere riot if it were to happen to a Chumash? No. Even for a Sefer Torah, the reaction would be mourning, not violence.
May 11, 2005 - 12:01 pm 7. RBMN:From what I hear, the Torah says that spreading true gossip is just as wrong as spreading false gossip, if your underlying motive is to embarrass and cause pain. I think, sometimes spreading true gossip is even worse. If it was true, it obviously didn’t constitute a pattern of behavior, and the consequences of spreading the story were very predictable.
May 11, 2005 - 12:19 pm 8. Buddy Larsen:Nutty-sounding but true: The Jihad and NewsWeek both (among so many other entities up and down the scales of destructiveness and influence), have vested interests in stupifying their sphere of influence. The more ignorance, the more hysteria. The more hysteria, the greater political control.
May 11, 2005 - 12:31 pm 9. David C:Am I the only one who thinks the “Qu’ran down the toilet” story sounds fishy, based solely on physical implausibility? Even a small standard mass-market paperback size translation of the book on Amazon.com is 467 pages, which would choke pretty much any toilet, wouldn’t it?
May 11, 2005 - 12:51 pm 10. Yehudit:Reminds me of this story of a moonbat rant that led to a riot.
May 11, 2005 - 12:56 pm 11. Occam's Beard:David C,
No, you’re not alone. I had exactly the same reaction on hearing the story. Even with ripping out pages, disposing of a book that way would be somewhere between difficult and impossible, and/or a great way to meet your local plumber.
The only caveat is that the “flushing” part might be inaccurate, and the facility involved was a portable john, where tossing a book in would be easy.
May 11, 2005 - 1:14 pm 12. David C:It seems to me that in a typical “interrogation room” setting, and if you’re trying to achieve maximum “psychological effect” or whatever, wouldn’t it be better to *burn* the book?
Not to mention that the psychology of it seems to run exactly counter to everything I’ve read about interrogating these guys - wouldn’t it just enrage them and make them more intransigent?
May 11, 2005 - 1:25 pm 13. Kevin P:Roger:
What are the odds that the source was one of the lawyers or red cross who have some access to the prisoners and that they did not witness the so called flushing. And of course the prisoners have no reason to create a controversy that they know will whip up protest and put world wide pressure to release them. My only question about the reporters is whether they were just stupid dupes or whether they just don’t give a damn.
May 11, 2005 - 1:54 pm 14. Buddy Larsen:We’ll know what didn’t happen if the reporter doesn’t step up with the incident details. Whoever did the flushing belonged to some unit somewhere and someone must’ve witnessed the whole thing.
May 11, 2005 - 2:13 pm 15. Achillea:“Talk or the Koran gets it!”?
May 11, 2005 - 2:32 pm 16. Syl:Wait. Wait. We’re criticizing the wrong bozos.
Quit harping on Newsweek. Really.
Or are we now advocating dhimmitude?
May 11, 2005 - 2:54 pm 17. Jakester:Syl’s right. Are we supposed to censor everything so a bunch of medieval savages don’t go bezerk? The mainstream media is a heck of a lot better here than in most countries and they are the ones who actually go out and get the stories. Blogs are mainly composed of the snarky opinion of the biases, real or imagined, of the MSM. In that eay the blogs are the jackals, feeding off the kills of the MSM lions and cheetahs. When was the last time a major blogger went out and did it’s own reporting or research?
May 11, 2005 - 3:26 pm 18. Brown Line:David C, the Islamic emphasis on ritual cleanliness would make disposing of a Koran in a privy much more psychologically powerful than merely burning. Much as, say, throwing a concecrated Host into a privy would affect a Catholic, or similarly desecrating a Torah would affect a Jew. That being said, I don’t believe for a minute that anyone at Guantanamo would be dumb enough to do that.
Syl, I must respectfully disagree with your point. Yes, the blame for acts of violence always rests ultimately on those who perform them; and secondarily on those who nurture the mindset that makes such violence acceptable. However, the long history of religious violence in the Middle East meant that the editors of Newsweek had an extremely high responsibility to write stories that are verifably true, from unimpeachable sources who are willing to step forward publically; and further, given the extremely sensitive nature of this charge, to give the authorities a chance to investigate and respond before the article was published. Publishing a story like this based on rumors is as irresponsible as tossing a lighted match into a powder magazine - as irresponsible, and as culpable.
May 11, 2005 - 4:44 pm 19. Terrye:I blame both the media and rioters.
After all the media is supposed to know better and the attachment these people have to this book is patholgical, no doubt.
I remember when those Palestinians were held up in the Church of the Nativity. They completely trashed the place. It is one of the most sacred places in Christianity and they had no respect for it at all.
But these writers know the reaction to this incident would be outrage, that is why they printed it.
They should be held accountable if this thing is not true.
And BTW I also thought about the physical difficulty of flushing that down a flush toilet.
May 11, 2005 - 5:24 pm 20. Syl:Jakester: what the heck have blogs to do with this?
Brown Line: Statements of fact, no matter what they are, should be verified before printing. That Islamists have no self-control and are so easily outraged has nothing to do with that.
What’s at stake here, really, is not whether it was true or not but whether if it were true should the fact be published. Because if it is true, the consequences would be the same.
I’m basically reading here that people are saying we shouldn’t offend the jerks because someone might get hurt or worse.
Well, we all here know what that means. No Iraq invasion, no support of Israel, no movies about how Islam treats women. Dhimmitude and the jerks win.
If, on the other hand, we’re only saying be careful of your facts because someone might get killed, I’ll agree. But that’s all I’d agree to. But personally I believe it’s true and it makes perfect sense to me as part of an attempted breakdown during interrogation.
May 11, 2005 - 5:52 pm 21. Patrick Tyson:I agree with Syl.
Filed in United States District Court for the District of Columbia on October 27, 2004:
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/terrorism/rasulrums102704cmp.html
See paragraphs 78 & 205 of the complaint.
May 11, 2005 - 5:57 pm 22. Snippet:About 4 years ago (or so), a picture of a cross in urine was posted prominently in an “art” show.
Number of people killed in the ensuing rioting: zero.
About 2 years ago (or so), a picture of the Madonna adorned with cow (or was it elephant) dung and cutouts of vaginas was a main attraction in another “art” show.
Number of people killed by rioting Catholics: zero.
Property damage: zero dollars, zero cents. Number of people who suggested in hushed tones that it might “provoke” Catholics: zero.
10 years ago (or so - 15?) a movie, “The Last Temptation of Christ” contained a scene in which Jesus fantasized about having sex with Mary Magdalene (sp?).
Number of people who so much as broke a finger nail in the ensuing riots.
ZEEEEEEROOOOO.
Last year, we got the movie, “Chocolat” about a woman who opens a chocolate factory across from a Catholic church during Lent - a time when many Catholics swear off chocolate for religious reasons, a fact the viewer is fully expected to be aware of (nudge nudge)
In all cases, non-violent Christian complaints were met with condecension and derision.
If you want the sensitive, intelligent, peace-loving people of the world to care about your cause, you need to intimidate, kill, an destroy things.
May 11, 2005 - 6:40 pm 23. Pat:Further on, the Newsweek article notes that:
“New details of sexual abuseóincluding an instance in which a female interrogator allegedly wiped her red-stained hand on a detainee’s face, telling him it was her menstrual bloodóare also in a new book to be published this week by a former Gitmo translator”
Could “Inside The Wire” by Eric Saar be the book in question? This is a book by a translator that alleges the interrogators at gitmo were almost as bad as the Abu Ghraib crowd. The book’s credibility is already under fire by Amazon reviewers, one of whom notes that the publisher has had to correct a major error:
Penguin Press, the book’s publisher, has publicly acknowledged that the book includes an erroneous statement about CACI in connection with interrogation activities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
Seems like it’s time for Mr. Saar to be interrogated about his book, whether or not he was the anonymous source.
May 11, 2005 - 6:53 pm 24. sammy small:Snippet
Don’t forget 3 years ago when Palestians stormed the Church of the Nativity and how many Christians rioted…..you guessed it: zero.
May 11, 2005 - 7:36 pm 25. Rick Ballard:Pat,
It might be the translator - or it might be the lawsuit Patrick cites above, filed by Center for Constitutional Rights on behalf of three Brits taken in Afghanistan. CCR is the bastard spawn of “Red” Bill Kunstler’s group of comsymp agitator/lawyers - near and dear to every lefty who ever heard of them.
Itsikoff is the spineless wimp who let Newsweek spike the Lewinsky story that made Matt Drudge. A fine group to whom the deaths in Afghanistan are absolutely meaningless when compared to the chance to knock 1/10,000th of a percentage point off the administration’s poll standings.
I continue to wonder if they’re paid or just natural turncoats.
May 11, 2005 - 8:14 pm 26. Syl:I think (but I don’t know) that it may be true. That does NOT mean that I disagree with the action or am in any way outraged by it. In fact I’m not.
We’re getting too caught up in the It’s True, no It’s False thing here with the assumption that if it’s true, well, it’s a bad thing.
May 11, 2005 - 9:26 pm 27. Kyda Sylvester:CCR is also a plantiff’s attorney in the Caterpillar suit, the busy little bees.
If, however, the Gitmo lawsuit is the source material for the Newsweek piece, wouldn’t they say so instead of attributing to “sources”?
May 11, 2005 - 9:32 pm 28. chuck:Syl,
You may not care if it is true of false, but I do. If Newsweek is spreading unproved rumors, then they are responsible for the consequences. It’s the old fire in the theater thing. Now, if these ‘facts’ are simply part of a plaintiff’s case that has not been settled, then they are simply rumors. I personally found many of the things reported by the released Brits rather lurid and bizarre. I no longer remember the details, but they were reported in the English press. However, we really aren’t in a position to judge the Newsweek article because the source is anonymous. That is just unacceptable.
Bye the bye, did I ever mention that my kindergarten teacher was worried about my mental health because I was always asking her if things were true? I suspect she was very “progressive” for her time and attached great value to imaginary things.
May 11, 2005 - 10:11 pm 29. Snippet:Good point Sammy Small.
There have been so many unanswered “provocations” against Christians that a guy can hardly keep track of them all.
Muslims are simply expected to act like violent children, and when they do, the sensitivity policy go on a manhunt for whoever “caused” the latest Islamic riot/terrorist attack/war/murder/assassination.
Meanwhile, when Christians verbally complain about deliberate assaults on their beliefs, they are referred to as extremists, or theocrats, or, and I just LOVE this, “jihadis.”
All from people who almost never are able to muster any real condemnation for real jihadis.
May 12, 2005 - 5:52 am 30. OJ:Roger:
This is an interesting coincidence. Although on in a much broader scope, we yesterday questioned what skewed liberal media coverage does to National Security. Completely unrelated to the situation in Afghanistan, the media is perhaps impacting the security of the United States. Just like you can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater for fun…
http://www.rightviews.com/article.php?id=307
It does warrant discussion.
http://www.RightViews.com
May 12, 2005 - 7:20 am 31. Barbara Skolaut:“who would want these deaths on their conscience?”
C’mon, Roger, you’re not that naive.
These clowns don’t have a conscience.
May 12, 2005 - 1:03 pm 32. The Sanity Inspector:I’m like Lileks in this regard: For me, the newsweeklies are Playboy in reverse–I only look at them for the pictures.
May 15, 2005 - 1:18 pm 33. mudler:before your go on your attack for the right-wing agenda, get it right.
There has been multiple reports on the tactic of “flushing the Koran
down the toliet”, if you guys ever did research beyond the “talking
points” you would find find the truth. Don’t be afraid of the truth it
will set you free from the brainwashing you have received. from the
philly inquirer,
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/10685611.htm
“Some detainees complained of religious humiliation, saying guards had
defaced their copies of the Koran and, in one case, had thrown it in a
toilet, said Kristine Huskey [an attorney in Washington, D.C.], who
interviewed clients late last month. Others said that pills were hidden
in their food and that people came to their cells claiming to be their
attorneys, to gain information.”
and from the Human Rights Watch
Report, http://hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/gitmo1004/gitmo1004.pdf
“72.They were never given prayer mats and initially they didn’t get a
Koran. When the Korans were provided, they were kicked and thrown about
by the guards and on occasion thrown in the buckets used for the
toilets. This kept happening. When it happened it was always said to be
an accident but it was a recurrent theme.”
and
“74. Asif says that `it was impossible to pray because initially we did
not know the direction to pray, but also given that we couldn’t move and
the harassment from the guards, it was simply not feasible. The
behaviour of the guards towards our religious practices as well as the
Koran was also, in my view, designed to cause us as much distress as
possible. They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and
generally disrespect it. It is clear to me that the conditions in our
cells and our general treatment were designed by the officers in charge
of the interrogation process to “soften us up”‘.”
May 17, 2005 - 7:21 am 34. Holy Flusher:The act of flushing holy books is not so bad by itself. In the context of the current war where the US detains without charge or trail, sexually assaults, tortures & even murders civilians including children (Haditha) and other atrocities, then the holy book incident is just something to rally around.
You can now flush holy books yourself at flushaholybook.com
Jun 9, 2006 - 8:49 am 35. Will Truth Please Stand Up:Take your pick of the major religions and flush it down.
This is from the Newsweek article I read.
Notice the media didn’t make a big fuss over it did they?
I noticed that mudler on his above post also didn’t reference it even though his blog was the day after this retraction came out.
Editor’s Note: On May 16, Newsweek editor Mark Whitaker issued the following statement: “Based on what we know now, we are retracting our original story that an internal military investigation had uncovered Qur’an abuse at Guantanamo Bay.”
Fascinating!
Jun 27, 2006 - 11:46 am