George Soros has been taking some hits across the blogosphere for the plan for turning the Ground Zero Memorial into an advertisement for post-modern, pseudo-liberal cant. Debra Burlingame, sister of 9/11 victim Chic Burlingame, is justifiably appalled.
But I have a suggestion for Mr. Soros. When attacked by a hail storm of criticism, do what others do and double-down. Why do this in half measures? Why not turn Ground Zero into something that would really make you proud – A Memorial to the Victims of the American Gulag in Guantanamo? And it wouldn’t even put a dent in your billions. All you’d need is some barbed wire, some salsa music and a half-way decent copy of the Mannekin Piss in Brussels.
UPDATE: Maybe PowerLine already has the design.
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135 Comments
1. Bruce W.:Roger:
Thanks for bringing the Burlingame article up front and center. I’ve been in a particularly bad mood ever since reading it elsewhere earlier today.
This must be stopped. What a complete and utter horror if the site is allowed to be violated that way.
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:24 am 2. Kyda Sylvester:Oh, Roger, that’s hilarious and you’re absolutely right–after all, no guts, no glory. Thank you for bringing this to prominent attention. It’s an outrage and must be stopped.
One small correction: Debra Burlingame is Chic Burlingame’s sister.
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:33 am 3. Buddy Larsen:Doesn’t the city have to approve? How does it work, I wonder. Is there a city council type public meeting or somesuch? Any way that citizens can directly affect NYC municipal projects? Referendum tools available? Anything? Hello?
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:42 am 4. lawhawk:The City of NY, and Mayor Bloomberg have no say over the project. It is within the domain of the Port Authority of NY/NJ – a bistate public authority controlled by the governors of both NY and NJ. In this instance, Gov. Pataki has the overridding say on how the site is developed.
The LMDC has additional say in the matter, but they too are an extension of the Governor’s powers over the site. The mayor and local groups have seats on that particular board, but can’t dominate the outcome.
Jun 8, 2005 - 11:00 am 5. Buddy Larsen:Thanks, lawhawk. So basically, Gov. George Pataki.
Jun 8, 2005 - 11:53 am 6. Kevin P:Roger:
This memorial should be dedicated to the victims of 9-11 and the heroic city workers who gave their lives to save the survivors. This is not political. The left is trying to make it into a monument to the “yes, 9-11 was bad but it is America’s fault so we must examine how we made those 19 men attack us.” This is nothing but politics and propaganda. There is no reason to include LBJ and MLK in this memorial. It should not become a commercial and propaganda site for the democratic party and the left wing academic set. If Soros wants to give Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky a platform to spew their revisionist history he can buy them a building in Manhattan and give them the executive suites.
Jun 8, 2005 - 11:59 am 7. Red Chicagoan:Mr. Soros has made a string of “investments” from at least 2002. First, he backed McCain/Feingold, which got him his 527 megaphone. Second, he backed JFK, during which, from August through the election, he went long crude oil, and shorted the dollar versus the Euro currency. The crude trade blew up, and the dollar is flushing him out right now. If he doubles down again, it may cost him some real money.
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:00 pm 8. Barbara Skolaut:Red – maybe with a little luck the bastard will go broke. ;-p
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:08 pm 9. Lola:What I’d like to know is . . . how did this abomination sneak by? And I don’t want my tax dollars going to pay for this.
Does Rudy Guiliani know about this?
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:12 pm 10. PJ:Great post, Roger. Bush or Bloomberg or Rudy G. better put a stop to this and pronto.
I’m absolutely furious. I know that people like us are too dignified to march in the streets, but if there was one scheduled, I’d get on a plane and go.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! I will not have their self-loathing memorialized on sacred ground!
And whenever you see the words “cultural center” on a new civic building, it’s a dead giveaway that it’s an anti-American cultural center.
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:21 pm 11. Piranha:Red,
How do you know what Soros’ investment strategy has been over the past year or two? Isn’t it entirely possible that he profited from Kerry’s failure and the rise (then decline) in oil prices?
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:31 pm 12. uranari:This really bothers me. Given the last few years I thought I was over being bothered. I had become philosophical to the far Left’s (just the Left’s?) use of resources to interpret history as it was happening, nay, even before it had happened. How many books were translated into Japanese before the invasion of Afghan had even begun spelling out the inevitable disaster it would become. And eeeeeeeevil America. And then after the success there, all was forgotten, nothing to see here, move on, move on; this a tactic to gain the time needed for regrouping the group think, and then how many more books were sold telling us anew not to believe it, Afghanistan was actually an even more dastardly disaster. Then Iraq. (times 32.) Success by Bush/Blair/Howard/Koizumi/ et al, regrouping by the Left. Over and over. Now, while hundreds and hundreds of thousands of North Koreans are dying and have died in real gulags, it has come to the point where Amnesty International calls what is comparatively a resort in Cuba a gulag. Three squares, toilets! occasionally stopped up or not, clean sheets, sanitation, doctors, reading materials. I mean jeez. And this for terrorists. In North Korea it is families some cranky neighbor thought looked at the head tyrant’s picture the wrong way.
The day after 9/11 our news filled with apologists to tyranny and terror talking about freedom, of all things, and blaming everything on America. They were Americans mind you. Or mouths trained in America. Now they’ll have a permanent seat at ground zero. When the world visits Ground Zero they’ll get the same b.s. being spread non-stop, 24/7 in a stunning thirty minute package. I wish I didn’t have to spend so much time de-programming strangers, friends, and neighbors after they return to Kyoto having spent time in America–usually to study. The clinic is full.
We can’t let ugly Americans like Soros and all those lefty NGOs that enable tyrants and get rich at the same time, get away with this. What’s next– Arlington Cemetary? The Berkeley theme park I gladly part with. A good portion of Manhattan, no problem. But not Ground Zero. Don’t tread there, Soros.
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:35 pm 13. uranari:Afghan–Afghanistan, and other mistakes too numerous to correct. Thinking and typing before my morning coffee a great mistake.
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:37 pm 14. Terrye:Is nothing sacred?
I mean it, is there nothing that Soros and his nasty money can not buy?
The memorial in OKC was not a tribute to why white extremists hate us, it was a memorial to the people who died that day when Tim McVeigh blew up the federal building.
It would seem to me that the people who died on 9/11 deserve no less.
I will contact the Governor. What about the police and fire fighters? They were the real heroes that day. Don’t they get any say in this?
Why do they hate us? Who knows and who cares? I know why I am starting to hate George Soros though as well as the rest of these self loathing parasitic idiots.
Tell him to go to Mecca and make his effing monument to tolerance or whatever there and see how far he gets with that….. the freak.
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:37 pm 15. Ron:Just when does the term liberal not apply and just how far can someone or organization go before they are considered something other than left. Maybe there should be a special classification of the people and organizations that can truly cause us harm, could put us behind the barbed wire fences. There are such in the country now that if they could, would put us in the real Gulags. They think with enough tinkering socialism would work and wouldn’t necessarily end up the way is has in the past. This thing with ground zero in New York is a challenge to everyone in the United States who feels that what happened on that terrible day shouldn’t be forgotten for what it was, a murderous act of war. What a bunch of people and organizations that are involved, is there one in the bunch that doesn’t hate the United States? These are a real roster of slime-balls, what next will they attempt, a grab at the USS Arizona?
Jun 8, 2005 - 12:53 pm 16. Catherine:I just read the article this morning, and I am very concerned.
This plan has got to be changed.
I’ve also been reading that there is to be no memorial to the firemen, on grounds that ‘everyone is a hero.’
No idea whether that approach has been revisited or revised.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:11 pm 17. Catherine:I can’t tell you how strongly I feel that there should be no ‘freedom center’ at Ground Zero, and certainly no forum for international conferences.
This is sacred ground.
3000 people died here.
We need a memorial, we need a shrine, we need remembrance.
Not politics, and certainly not annual conferences for transnational foreign policy elites.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:15 pm 18. Katherine:Remember the idea of commissioning a sculpture of 3 firefighters raising the Flag a la Iwo Jima? That was scrapped because City of New York decided that the real guys who actually raised the flag were not multicultural enough (you know, three white guys, one slightly overweight, quelle horreur!)
And now this. I think I am beyond outrage.
I am so glad that we have Mr. Soros to guide us uneducated redneck neocon/theocons and point us the errors of our ways. But I think that setting memorial for victims of American gulag is not enough. Mr. Soros should now dedicate his fortune directly to bringing jihad to American shores. Pls Mr. Soros, go and fund some of those wonderful Islamic charities for Peace. You will feel great knowing that your money is well spent bringing the Great Satan to her knees. I will feel great because should you chose to go this way you WILL get nabbed your ass will end up in jail.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:21 pm 19. Bruce W.:There seems to be enough outrage about this in the blogosphere today to motivate a significant letter campaign. I’m writing mine now and urge others to do the same. Keep it simple and respectful, but let the outrage be known!!
To paraphrase the last stanza of Tennyson’s Light Brigade:
“How can we let their sacrifice fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble heros and victims all!”
As someone noted in LGF comments, snail mail letters typically get the most attention, but they also may get held up due to security scans, etc. Let’s all do what we can.
Included below is a collection of contact info for Pataki, Acting NJ Governor Codey, Senator Clinton, Chuck Schumer, NJ republican nominee for Governor Doug Forrester and Mayor Bloomberg. To paraphrase the last stanza of Tennyson’s Light Brigade:
How can we let their sacrifice fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble heros and victims all!
Governor George E. Pataki
State Capitol
Albany, NY 12224
Acting Governor Richard J. Codey
Governor’s North Jersey Office
153 Halsey Street, 7th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
Clinton’s e-mail address:
http://clinton.senate.gov/email_form.html
Senator Charles E. Schumer
New York City
757 Third Avenue
Suite 17-02
New York, NY 10017
Doug Forrester
Forrester for Governor
29 Emmons Drive C-10
Princeton, NJ 08540
info@doug2005.com
Mayro Michael Bloomberg
http://www.nyc.gov/html/mail/html/mayor.html
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:28 pm 20. Buddy Larsen:Who knows what all is behind the jihad…but at least some of it is a fundamental objection to what we call secularism and the jihadis call Godlessness.
I’d imagine that most of the heat over our secularism rides into the jihadi consciousness on the beams of the most licentious aspects of our pop culture. I use ‘licentious’ advisedly, as the idea of no guardrails on personal behavior is said to be one of the things that drove the madness of 911.
That the type of thinking exemplified by the Soros wing is intrinsic to the ‘no guardrails’ society-within-our-society, then in a very real way, Soros-think may never have been more honest than when it says “we brought 911 on ourselves” (this also fits the criminals-are-victims theme, how can one blame the jihadis?).
The problem is in the “we”, I’m not in the Soros ‘royal we’, and neither are most of the rest of us. But, long story/short, if the Amalgamated Wobblies say they brought 911 on themselves, then what the hell, I fully, one-hundred percent, agree with them.
If we could go back a decade or so, a harder face on Uncle Sam, one both sides of his face, not just the right side of his face, would have kept the jihad restricted to the fever-dreams of a few Arabian cranks.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:29 pm 21. madawaskan:George Soros-
What a jacq-cu…
Telling him to double down on the Gulag- Gitmo -to him -is like splitting a pair of tens with the dealer showing a six-and he ’s counting the faces and tens.
Time to liquor the terd of a bass up or send in the whores.
Ya my people worked for the mob.
What happened to real men in New York?
Where the “H” is Rudy?
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:30 pm 22. madawaskan:In other words-he thinks he has a winner…and he’d do it.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:35 pm 23. Knucklehead:This abomination is scheduled to open in roughly five years. That’s not much time but I suggest nobody miss an opportunity to let people know what seditionist slime these people are.
I seriously doubt that Soros and Sychophants can stand up to the wrath of the people of NYC hammering at them for five years.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:37 pm 24. madawaskan:Amen Knucklehead-
Sorry lawhawk-
I think the polis can work outside and inside the law-they’re corrupt and like things don’t get done by “other means”.
Please-we’re talkin’ New York City.
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:40 pm 25. Bruce W.:Contact info for Rudy at Work:
Giuliani Partners LLC
5 Times Square
New York, NY 10036
Tel: 212.931.7300
Fax: 212.931.7310
Jun 8, 2005 - 1:58 pm 26. Knucklehead:There’s a good list of contacts at Take Back the Memorial (.com of course ;>)
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:02 pm 27. Kevin P:Catherine:
Great post! “everyone is a hero” No, their not. I am not. I didn’t go into a building that I knew might collapse. I didn’t help others get out, ignoring my own safety. I did not knowingly puy myself in harms way.
Many Americans contributed in many wonderfull ways after the dissaster. But there is nothing wrong with highlighting those who were extrodinary. In fact, it is a insult to the heroism if we don’t. If I was put in that position would I act the same way? I can’t say. But those who did deserve special mention. At a minimum.
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:09 pm 28. Kyda Sylvester:Rudy Giuliani can be contacted here:
Giuliani Partners LLC
5 Times Square
New York, NY 10036
Tel: 212.931.7300
Fax: 212.931.7310
I’m on my way to track down other fax #’s (I believe in the power of the fax).
Go, everyone, go. This must not stand.
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:12 pm 29. Kyda Sylvester:I see the contact for Rudy is well covered (read first, Kyda, read first).
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:18 pm 30. Bruce W.:There’s already a website? Cool! I’m starting to feel a little better.
I think we can keep building these waves of anger into a tidal wave of outrage that nobody’s billions can withstand.
Is it a bird? Is it a plane?
No,
IT’S PAJAMA TIME!
Roger, prithee pick up the red phone, enter the PJM activation sequence and unleash the power of New Media!
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:31 pm 31. PeterUK:Kevin P
I would go further,not only is it an insult to heroism,this negates the very concept of heroism.
That,of course,is one of the fundamental pillars of the left,nobody is different,except those who have made themselves billionaires gauging the value of ordinary peoples currency.
Have they no shame?
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:40 pm 32. Katherine:“Have they no shame?”
Well, no, Peter. You see, guys like Soros are better than you and me.
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:47 pm 33. Kyda Sylvester:Here’s the list of fax numbers:
Pres Bush 512.637.8800
Gov Pataki 518.473.7669
Mayor Bloomberg 212.788.9711
Sen Clinton 212.688.7444 (Manhattan) 202.228.0282 (DC)
Sen Schumer 212.486.7693 (Manhattan) 202.228.3027 (DC)
Forrester for Gov 609.452.0008
Gov Codey 609.292.3454
Rudy Giuliani 212.931.7310
I would go heavy on those who have future ambitions (well, that’s almost all of them, isn’t it). For that reason I’m including the probable next governor of NY:
Att’y Gen’l Elliot Spitzer 212.416.8139
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:52 pm 34. AST:My favorite idea was to rebuild the Twin Towers, but taller, stronger and equipped with some SAM launchers. But failing that, I would rather see this ground turned into a second Arlington Cemetery for the heroes of 9/11 and later.
To see it turned into a monument to political correctness is deeply saddening and offensive. New York seems to be responding to this tragedy with hanging heads and a whimper.
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:58 pm 35. Buddy Larsen:Per Jamie Iron’s post on “Africa” next door, it always bothers me that the sort of leftist that fought in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade has to share the appellation with this new breed of totalitarianish elitoid flim-flammin’ gold-hoarder.
But, what to call ‘em?
‘Liberal’ is even worse, it stomps all over the ‘good’ ideal, as in liberal democracy. Well, drum roll, I believe our wordsmith host may’ve solved it (for me, anyway), the word ‘pseudo’ on the host-post is pellucid, clarion, and, uh, sounds good.
It’s even got the phonetic resonance, ’suit’, as in “Workers of the World! Don your Armani!”
From now on, for me, they’re the Pseudos.
Jun 8, 2005 - 2:59 pm 36. BeckyJ:Here’s the link for Acting NJ Gov. Richard Codey. You have to choose a subject line, but there is one called “Fallen Heroes Memorial”. There is no choice for putting in your own subject line.
And his snail mail address and general phone (no fax found yet):
PO Box 001
Trenton, NJ 08625
609-292-6000
Also local offices:
Governor’s South Jersey Office
101 Haddon Avenue, Suite 15
Camden, NJ 08102
(856) 614-3200
Governor’s North Jersey Office
153 Halsey Street, 7th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
(973) 648-2640
This is outrageous. Now, let’s see the true power of the blogosphere and put a stop to this monstrosity.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:05 pm 37. PeterUK:Katherine,
It has always puzzled me how anyone can be leftwing at the same time get filty rich gambling on the ultimate capitalist icon ,money.Takes hypocrisy down to new depths.
Soros seems to bite the countries that shelter him,us in the ERM debacle and you when you are at war.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:06 pm 38. BeckyJ:Don’t forget Senator John Corzine of NJ. He has gubernatorial aspirations.
Fax numbers for Corzine:
DC
(202) 224-4744
FAX: (202) 228-2197
TDD/TTY): (202) 224-1984
Newark, NJ office:
(973) 645-3030
FAX: (973) 645-0502
Barrington, NJ office:
(856) 757-5353
FAX: (856) 546-1526
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:10 pm 39. BeckyJ:PeterUK -
I think that Soros only has one real agenda and that is his own aggrandizement. He wants people to do a Wayne’s World (we are not worthy) bow in front of him. I think he’s a megalomaniac who has found that the Left offers the best way to get his own way and also is the easiest group to convince that his money was made without harming anyone and he’s only going to use his power for good.
Soros is yet another sign of how gullible the Left really is. And how blind they are to their own gullibility and faults.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:13 pm 40. madawaskan:Buddy-
Found this quote of Ayn Rand’s at Belmont Club in regards to Africa but seems to fit here too-
[Mix Ayn Rand with Clausewitz-ya I'm loose when it comes to philosophy.]
New York seems devoid of men-the real ones-the front line soldiers on the War on Terror-the firefighters-they lost a lot of real men there.
Then what are they left with?
Manhattanite liberal metrosexuals who are getting manicures while their brothers with testosterone are in Iraq,Afghanistan,Korea,Djou-friggib’bouti-and gawd awful other places unknown.
If you’re a man in New York-you owe it to these guys to-
DOUBLE DOWN and fight in and outside the box.
You cannot let politicans give you “the not my district,department,job description” excuses.
Who are you going to leave the fight to?
The Widows?
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:19 pm 41. Buddy Larsen:I’m sure, Peter, that he’d willingly part with every cent if he could be like penniless Stalin, and just point his finger at anything and make it follow command.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:21 pm 42. Katherine:Peter,
It is the purity of the soul that matters. You can slaughter and/or impoverish millions but it is OK as long as your intentions are good, for example if your goal is Better Tomorrow and Social Justice. Even Pol Pot believed that he was a great benefactor to his fellow Cambodians. And the money? Well, you know, the needs of the Great People are so much greater than puny little peasants and proles. Besides, the rules do not apply to the Great Ones. Otherwise, what would be the point?
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:21 pm 43. Bruce W.:Just finished my snail mail dist’n.
But I think you’re right. Faxes will get quicker attention than snails and have more of an impact than e-mail; especially if we manage to tie up all their lines for a while.
I will shoot some faxes tomorrow (after they filled their paper trays and have more staffers around to sort and count ‘em).
Viva la Revolucion! (contra, that is).
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:21 pm 44. madawaskan:Buddy-
Found this quote of Ayn Rand’s at Belmont Club in regards to Africa but seems to fit here too-
[Mix Ayn Rand with Clausewitz-ya I'm loose when it comes to philosophy.]
New York seems devoid of men. The real ones,the front line soldiers on the War on Terror-the firefighters-New York lost a lot of real men there.[kinda like France.]
Then what are they left with?
Manhattanite liberal metrosexuals who are getting manicures while their brothers with testosterone are in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Djou-’friggin’-bouti-and gawd awful other places unknown.
If you’re a man in New York- you owe it to these guys to-
DOUBLE DOWN and fight in and outside the box.
You cannot let politicans give you “the not my district,department,job description” excuses.
Who are you going to leave the fight to?
The Widows?
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:22 pm 45. PeterUK:Katherine,
I’m glad to hear that,it means that come the revolution we can string them up.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:30 pm 46. Kyda Sylvester:And for good measure:
World Trade Center Memorial Foundation
212.227.7931
Here’s the IFC’s “Mission & Vision”
You can contact them to let them know how you feel about their mission and vision here:
International Freedom Center
120 Broadway, 31st Floor
New York, NY 10271
Fax
(212) 336-6727
E-mail
contact@ifcwtc.org
Also, alert the radio guys at their websites: Limbaugh, Medved, Hewitt, Prager, Ingraham, O’Reilly, Hannity. I’ve tried to listen around today and haven’t heard mention of this at all.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:36 pm 47. Buddy Larsen:Knucklehead’s 2:02 PM, the link, take a look if you haven’t, it’s ideal to send out to your email addy book.
Jun 8, 2005 - 3:42 pm 48. M. Simon:Why aren’t the police and firemen’s union up in arms about this.
Those are the guys who could get some action.
Jun 8, 2005 - 4:33 pm 49. c:Many thanks to Roger for his editorial and to Bruce W., Kyda, BeckyJ and Knucklehead for all of the names and contact info.
And thank you, uranari, for your invaluable ‘re-programming’ efforts in Kyoto! PM Koizumi and many Japanese have been true friends to the US and on the right side of this fight. We’ll win the war, I have to believe, but sometimes it seems as if the more implacable enemy we face is our own liberal elite, succored and spoiled by our freedoms and affluence, and spitefully wishing for the rest of us to fail. Of course, if we actually did lose, they’d be toast—
Jun 8, 2005 - 4:43 pm 50. Katherine:Peter,
I will be there, choosing the lanterns.
Jun 8, 2005 - 5:00 pm 51. PeterUK:Katherine,
Do you knit? Might be nice to make it really traditional.
The left seem to be gripped ina collective bout of hysteria.http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/06/hysteria-of-charles-rangel.html
They seem to be trying to vie with each other for the most outrageous hyperbole.I’m a foreigner,and even I find it offensive.It is adolescent to say the least.
Jun 8, 2005 - 5:25 pm 52. Neo:I mean, as a matter of fairness, shouldn’t their be memorials at every spot in Manhattan where someone, anyone, has come to their end due to injustice.
Perhaps a smaller memorial is in order, just to be fair.
Jun 8, 2005 - 5:59 pm 53. Katherine:Peter,
I was never good at knitting, although I in my time I produced a sweater or two. But I am sure it will suffice for what you have in mind. I have to warn you though I might find smearing myself in blood a little bit too much.
Iraqi war is as bad as Holocaust, eh? Overthrowing Saddam and his henchmen is as bad as murder of 6 million Jews? At least Mr. Rangle is clear on with whom his sympathies lay.
After Gitmo the American Gulag somebody had to up the ante. However, I am having difficulties figuring our where do our friends the leftist go from there. 10 point dip in a stock market worse than Great Depression? Tax cuts worse than Khmer Rough return to year zero? Confirmation of Janice Brown worse than Ukrainian Famine?
I was always told that the leftists are creative. Yes, indeed.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:08 pm 54. Buddy Larsen:Neo, scale is one of the facts with which humans must deal, in existing within nature.
Here’s some links via instapundit.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:09 pm 55. Bruce W.:Confession about the IFC’s “Mission & Vision” from Kyda’s 3:36 post: It’s the kind of language that once would have made feel warm and fuzzy.
But sort of like Tommy, “I became aware this year” (OK last year). Now, knowing the forces behind it, words like “thought-provoking … stories from around the world, throughout the ages and up to the moment” means to me I had better get ready for it to include a disproportionate heaping of U.S. bashing.
Perhaps I could live with it in an entirely different location. To tell you the truth, I don’t know how much of it is driven by simple misguided resentment of the US Gov’t/current administration or driven by a desire by Soros’, et al., to attempt to make nice and rebuild bridges with the world by consuming a huge slice of humble/mea culpa pie in the most public provocative way possible. You know what? Whatever the reason:
I dont’ care, just not there.
Kyda: Let’s all keep at it and we’ll make it to those radio guys before week’s end!
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:09 pm 56. Buddy Larsen:“Sending Bolton to the UN will be worse than the Solar System getting sucked down the black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy!”
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:14 pm 57. Joseph (formerly Samuel):Roger, I must commend you and say that you are getting damn good at political satire. This after the Berkley post is just precious.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:21 pm 58. Bruce W.:I hope one of the two link attempts below work (I am so hopeless, trapped in this the 21st Century); if not copy and paste the address to get a feeling for the mount of internet buzz going on now about this:
Technorati.
http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?rank=&url=burlingame
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:22 pm 59. Bostonian:I don’t mean to be completely stupid, but who actually owns the property?
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:27 pm 60. Fire_Ready:Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful posts. I am honored to call myself a fireman. There WERE heroes as well as victims athe WTC. Victims went to work, and were slaughtered. Heroes go in to control the uncontrolable, and some sacrifice their very lives while saving others. My hat is off and over my heart for New York’s finest, fire and police and Port Authority. Many others came from all over. Heroes all. They stood up. They sacrificed all, knowing the danger, but they could do nothing less. To be ignored in the memorial is an injustice. The heroes did not sacrifice for money or fame. It is ingrained in what they do and who they are. To remember them is to remind ourselves of the good and couragous. Some things ARE worth sacrificing for. Some things ARE worth fighting for. They fought, they died. This fight now needs others who will stand up and be counted! I am proud to be able to comment. I knew some who were there. I knew some that travelled a long way to be of service. I am a reservist, and also served in another way. I traveled through Baghdad. My daughter spent 4 tours in the desert. I am proud of her. I am proud of you. Thank you for what you are doing. To watch and wait and hope for the best is easy. To see an injustice, and ACT before it is too late takes character. Let us stay the course and force change. Leaders all!
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:27 pm 61. Buddy Larsen:From Jeff Jarvis on the WSJ article, about one of the principals behind the memorial (bolding mine):
“Eric Foner, radical-left history professor at Columbia University who, even as the bodies were being pulled out of a smoldering Ground Zero, wrote, “I’m not sure which is more frightening: the horror that engulfed New York City or the apocalyptic rhetoric emanating daily from the White House.” This is the same man who participated in a “teach-in” at Columbia to protest the Iraq war, during which a colleague exhorted students with, “The only true heroes are those who find ways to defeat the U.S. military,” and called for “a million Mogadishus.”
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:29 pm 62. Buddy Larsen:Bostonian, I believe the Port Authority of NY/NJ.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:32 pm 63. Buddy Larsen:All I can say past the lump in my throat, Fire_Ready, is “Thank You”.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:36 pm 64. Katherine:Same here Fire_Ready. Thank you.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:37 pm 65. Buddy Larsen:when trouble comes around, and you need a hand, would you rather have Fire_Ready at your side, or a million Professor Eric Foners?
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:40 pm 66. Bruce W.:Fire Ready: How impossible to find the proper expression of gratitude for what you have done and do? I’ll go with “Forever Obliged, Sir”.
I think Burlingame has struck quite a chord. Let’s carry it forward.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:40 pm 67. Katherine:PS. Buddy, I like your Bolton post. I am trying to come up with something that would be worse than thermal death of the Universe.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:43 pm 68. Buddy Larsen:Kyda, how ’bout, whoever comes up for the Supreme Court when this term expires soon, and Justice Rehnquist retires?
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:47 pm 69. chuck:I am having difficulties figuring our where do our friends the leftist go from there.
That’s easy Katherine, Bush is worse than the thermal death of the Universe, worse than being sucked down a black hole. He is the beginning and ending of worseness, than there is no worser.
And they say we’re religious. Snicker.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:50 pm 70. Buddy Larsen:Oops, I meant Katherine. “K” names, ahh, they’re all alike.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:52 pm 71. Katherine:Chuck,
LOL!Ö
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:53 pm 72. Norm Conquest:I think the People of New York v. Howard Roark precedent applies here.
Any “memorial” that uses heroes to insult America deserves the Cortlandt Homes treatment.
Or perhaps the Stoddard Temple treatment.
Jun 8, 2005 - 6:59 pm 73. Fire_Ready:Thank you. I am just an old Vietnam Vet that had the tremendous opportunity to serve once again. I thought maybe I was too old, but was requested to replace someone whose wife had a miscarriage. I was honored, and on top of that, I got to see my daughter several times on her way through. Those that hypothetically judge our military are an irritation. Those that support our troops heal my soul. I have been so very proud of the welcome our troops have received. The silent majority gained their voice, and I am proud of them. I am proud of our young people who are serving in the most difficult environment of all time. America is fighting this war in such a humane way, that it costs us the lives of troops. No other war has been faught this way. In all other wars, when in doubt, the enemy is eliminated. You only fight them once. In this war, we really try to ensure they are the enemy. Since they do not wear uniforms, it is difficult. My daughter is aircrew. I had nightmares that her plane would be shot down. I had to get there to bring home not only her body, but her spirit. I was afraid they would be seperated. She wore one of my fire shirts under her flight suit on every mission. She said it kept her safe. I am humbled to have had this opportunity, as I could serve my country, act on the horror of 9/11, see my daughter and help make sure we win. I am blessed. My daughter was deactivated after 2 years. Not many of the Vietnam Vets had that chance, but I would venture to say they all would have jumped at the chance. It has been a long painful wait, but they are finally being told “Welcome Home!” by strangers that really mean it. They deserve it. I’m sorry, I got carried away. The Memorial has fired me up. I didn’t mean to get off track.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:04 pm 74. PeterUK:“Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds,”
A really catchy campaign slogan for Republicans,or
” End it All, Vote Shiva” that would get the self loathers onside.If that is too ethnically sensitive a more commercial slogan “The End of the World Experience” Only on performance.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:05 pm 75. Fire_Ready:PeterUK,
The French attitude is alive and well. The only reason in their mind that America hasn’t conquered the world and created the American Empire is because they whine so well.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:10 pm 76. Buddy Larsen:That post wasn’t off-track, Fire_Ready, that post was THE track. The whole thing about the memorial. The question isn’t so much about what it should be, as it is who should not be dictating what it should be. You should be designing it, not Professor Foner. He has no clue about the meaning.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:16 pm 77. Buddy Larsen:Maybe the French think that, because they can’t imagine having the power to be a bully, and not automatically using it without question.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:20 pm 78. chuck:Fire_Ready,
Bless you, and thanks for your service and your daughters. It makes me feel good to know that there are Americans like you two out there doing what needs doing.
And Welcome Home!
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:22 pm 79. Bruce W.:“That post wasn’t off-track, Fire_Ready, that post was THE track.”
Amen, Buddy, Amen.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:29 pm 80. Luther McLeod:Perhaps I am unsheathing a double edged sword here, but are the survivors of the WTC victims and rescuers being allowed a voice in what is to be an appropriate memorial to the lives of their loved ones? Have they organized as an entity?
I say double-edged in remembering those small few who spoke before the Senate berating the USA for all its various failures.
It just seems to me they should have a rather significant voice and power in what transpires. With the understanding that it was a National tragedy of course.
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:33 pm 81. Fire_Ready:Thank you Chuck and Buddy for your kind comments.
Everyone should be proud of who they are, and have a right to be. As Americans, we have a lot to be proud of. Has America done some dumb things? Sure. Should we dwell on the bad? I don’t think so. I have been many places, and enjoy talking with people from other countries. They always ask me “What makes America so great?” I tell them that we, as a country, believe tomorrow will be better than today, and then we go to work to make it so. You learn from your mistakes, but you don’t create burdens that hold you back. It is our positive “can do” attitude that seperates us and sets us up for success. We believe we are getting better, and that belief propels us to be better. We have our problems, but we overcome them instead of letting them overcome us. We believe we can. We also do what must be done. A majority of us are willing to stand up. Should Afghanistan and Iraq already have been addressed and resolved earlier? Absolutely. Who was on the ground in these countries that could have done something about it, but were too willing to suffer tyrants? The socialist countries and the UN were making too much money! Germany, France, the UN and Russia were getting a deal! It was a risk they could take, because when the chips are down, they know deep down that the good old USA will not let them fall. Mass graves in France and our dead all over Germany prove it. They know we will do what must be done. They just don’t want America to do it when it is to defend ourselves, only when it is done to defend THEM! And we have many here at home that are so afraid of our strength, that they side with the enemy. It doesn’t take guts or risk to whine. It doesn’t take vision. We must have vision and solutions. We know not only what shouldn’t be done, but what MUST be done. Then we make it happen. Thanks to all of you for making this happen!
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:50 pm 82. Fire_Ready:Goodnight all. Thank you, and thanks for this web site!
Jun 8, 2005 - 7:56 pm 83. Bruce W.:For recent visitors here who are outraged by what Ms. Burlingame described in her article, here’s a recap of contact info submitted during the day for some suggested recipients of your written rage, most importantly Governor Pataki.
Perhaps this link is all you need:
http://takebackthememorial.com/
Take Back the Memorial
But here’s info located elsewhere in this comment string:
Governor George E. Pataki
State Capitol
Albany, NY 12224
Fax 518.473.7669
Rudolph W. Giuliani
Giuliani Partners LLC
5 Times Square
New York, NY 10036
Fax 212.931.7310
President Bush
(Somewhere in D.C.?)
Fax 512.637.8800
Senator Charles E. Schumer
New York City
757 Third Avenue
Suite 17-02
New York, NY 10017
Fax 212.486.7693 (Manhattan)
202.228.3027 (DC)
Senator Hillary R. Clinton
Fax 212.688.7444 (Manhattan)
202.228.0282 (DC)
Mayor Bloomberg
Fax: 212.788.9711
Doug Forrester
Forrester for Governor
29 Emmons Drive C-10
Princeton, NJ 08540
info@doug2005.com
Fax: 609.452.0008
NY Att’y Gen’l Elliot Spitzer
Fax: 212.416.8139
Acting Governor Richard J. Codey
Governor’s North Jersey Office
153 Halsey Street, 7th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
Fax: 609.292.3454
Senator John Corzine
FAX: (202) 228-2197 DC
TDD/TTY): (202) 224-1984
FAX: (973) 645-0502
FAX: (856) 546-1526
International Freedom Center
120 Broadway, 31st Floor
New York, NY 10271
Fax (212) 336-6727
“Also, alert the radio guys at their websites: Limbaugh, Medved, Hewitt, Prager, Ingraham, O’Reilly, Hannity.”
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:01 pm 84. Bruce W.:Fire_Ready: Your 7:50 post. Wow. Bulls Eye.
Come on back now, y’hear?
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:05 pm 85. Buddy Larsen:Boy, you said it, Bruce W, when you said he said it! Good, good stuff. Hope they’re reading it over there in Unpleasantville.
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:22 pm 86. madawaskan:Looks like when I get the courage I can read Fire_Ready’s posts…
I decided to look up the Aspen Institute because of Kyda’s post and on the board of trustees is-
Active Trustees
Madeleine K. Albright
Principal
The Albright Group LLC
*Paul F. Anderson
Senior Advisor
Booz Allen Hamilton Inc
Prince Bandar Bin Sultan
Ambassador of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the United States
http://www.aspeninstitute.org/index.asp?bid=1221
I don’t know how much money is going between the two groups and how much “The Aspen Institute” is in control or being adviced about what is done about the project- but there you have it.
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:27 pm 87. Kyda Sylvester:The picture at one of the Instapundit links gave me chills…
I remember the wind that day. At Ground Zero it whipped about while the names were read as though it were the 3000 reminding us, admonishing us to remember what we still had to do; at the Pentagon it made its presence known by a background sound, perhaps a heavy chain striking metal, the steady clang…clang…clang an accompaniment to the somber words and roll of names; in Shanksville it animated that field, long relieved of its charge of heroes, and rendered it less barren.
I felt the victims were very much with us that day.
Mudville Gazette thinks Rudy is our best hope. I agree. Hit him hard, hit him often. The man wants to be president.
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:30 pm 88. Buddy Larsen:I’ll take that as good advice and direct a snail, emails when carrying the Blarney Stone, and fax everything worthwhile, a few a week. Wonder what’s the timeline/deadline? Really have a murky appreciation of where in sequence all this stands.
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:42 pm 89. Syl:Thank you, Fire_Ready, for your service and your heart. For your courage and your insight.
The IFC does not speak for America, for New York City, and of course doesn’t speak for the victims and the heros. It speaks only for itself. This is disgusting that it got this far.
Changing the meaning of 9/11 right before our eyes! Let them build their ‘memorial’ in Berkeley’s Theme Park! Leave Ground Zero out of it!
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:46 pm 90. madawaskan:Ya my husband has been going to the sandbox for years..
Since the Gulf War -I’m bloody sick of it. Yes we are hiring guys as civil contractors that retired as long ago as 1985.
My husband spent Christmas over there and is already going back for four months to take care of an f’in Gitmo in the desert.
I’m sick to death of Liberals and I am disgusted with the difference between when it is one of their wars-Bosnia or when it is a war that is simpler to understand such as the Gulf War.
I guess that was because a sovreign nation was invaded and back then Saddam didn’t have Kofi to help him buy appeasement from the Europeans with the Oil for Food Deal.
The Europeans were on board so I guess our MSM was on board and corporations back then even gave discounts to Vets and advertised it. Now they are afraid to lose their Bush hating customers.
I am also getting sick of Republicans to some point that have the luxury of forgetting all of the cr*p shot places are guys are stuck in.
I am fet up that my dad doesn’t support Bush even though he was a veteran of WW II, Korea, and Vietnam because he has bought into all of Michael Moore and Al Franken’s books.
That is what he reads-and Bush is going to take away his social security and I can’t talk to him without being accused of being disrespectful and being told that his politics is none of my business-the rest of my family is a bunch of French Canadians-so you can imagine.
I swear I wish I could opt out.
And do you think anyone appreciates that a two year old daughter of a military guy is doing more for the War On Terror than some grown men?
Everyone doesn’t want to hear the divorce rates-the kids growing up with developmental disabilities or the flat out abuse that springs up because of the stress…
And now they gotta do this to us with all their millions that they get from shorting the dollar while are loved ones are over there…
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:47 pm 91. Connecticut Yankee:A reminder of why we must take back the memorial: Charles at LGF just posted a link to the second installment of a survivor’s story: “Last Man Standing.” Thanks to the Saskatoon Star Phoenix. http://www.canada.com/saskatoon/starphoenix/news/world/story.html?id=004a09c7-24ff-41c8-97aa-a5d5d264c5c2
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:48 pm 92. Kyda Sylvester:Thank you Fire_Ready for you and your family–get carried away all you want.
I know John McCain can be a big mcpain, but he’s a huge megaphone and this is likely to be something that would piss him off and he wants to be president. I suggest we go after him too.
Jun 8, 2005 - 8:49 pm 93. Buddy Larsen:Be sure and find part 1, too. I can’t recall where twas but it was must-read. Mudville has this, as the way to stay up-to-date on events. Madawaskan, I hear ya. Seems like if something needs doing it gets done by those that are up to it–I know, small comfort. The best folks always make the most sacrifices. It’s not the fairest damn thing in the world, tho, is it?
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:08 pm 94. Kyda Sylvester:Wonder what’s the timeline/deadline? Really have a murky appreciation of where in sequence all this stands.
Completion in 5 years (another 5-year plan, oy). I wonder why this is the first we’ve heard of it. Were these plans such a big secret that they weren’t even shared with the Memorial Foundation board members?
(traffic here must be heavy tonight–it’s slow as a hound dog in August)
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:21 pm 95. Katherine:Things do not change much, donít they?
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!
http://www.everypoet.com/archive/poetry/Rudyard_Kipling/kipling_tommy.htm
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:24 pm 96. Katherine:I mean ìdo theyî
One day I will get the Perviww bastard.
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:26 pm 97. PJ:Kyda,
That portion you quoted from the IFC’s mission was chilling. Finally, they have their chance to promote their ideal of a world government–headed by leading NGOs, of course, like the gulag gang at Amnesty?–to complete the indoctrination started by the media and academe. I’m sure it will not include a word about Islamic fanaticism.
I want to see a center dedicated to the dead, to the heroes who died and those who made it out; about the Americans who stood in line all over the country to do something, anything; about our military which is doing the tough work so we don’t have to.
Good grief, we must stop them.
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:31 pm 98. c:A question: how much of this IFC slant is representative of a Manhattan state of mind? The city is fantastic and New Yorkers terrific, but oh the politics.
Mr. Larsen of Blanco makes a good point about our history remuddlers.
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:34 pm 99. Kyda Sylvester:Even the architecture critic at the New York freaking Times gets it:
(via Jeff Jarvis)
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:43 pm 100. Kyda Sylvester:Buddy has a great (as in useful) quote (via Jarvis) for Eric Foner (6:29). I’m looking for equally damning quotes for the other principles: George Soros, Tom Bernstein, Anthony Romero and Michael Posner. Please post any you might come across (Soros shouldn’t be a problem except for which one to choose). Thanks.
Jun 8, 2005 - 9:59 pm 101. Buddy Larsen:Ha. “remuddlers”…good one, Charlotte. Kyda, that IS worth a pat on the NYTime’s usually-craven back. The ‘humilty’ thing, how perfectly put. It seems so torturously difficult for the IFC sorts to get the pride/humilty relationship right. Tho it’s almost effortlessly natural for those who go in harm’s way.
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:00 pm 102. Buddy Larsen:Kyda, the “million Mogadishu” quotes is from Foner’s fellow Columbia prof Nick de Genova. Google [ million mogadishus ], or just scan this one link for a picture of the relationship, Foner & de Genova.
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:09 pm 103. Fire_Ready:Madawaskan,
Yeah, I couldn’t sleep…..go figure.
I feel for you. I could see it. It wears on you, and he is struggling over there. This is where the troops really get stuck in the middle. We work to fight a war morally, and it takes longer and more of our guys die because of it. The family wants to stay positive, but it is really hard. The burden on the family back home is immense. Most I talked to (and I made it a point to talk to as many as possible) would gladly stay and fight until it is over, if only they would turn us loose. It is demoralizing to catch and release, knowing you may have to fight them again, but they may get the drop on you next time. The MSM is always looking to smear them. It isn’t fair, and war is hell. They really need our support and understanding. I only went once, but it is the return trips that really take it out of you. You have to develop a war mentality. You know you may not make it home. You are scared to death, but can’t admit it. You are a bundle of frayed nerves. Then you accept that you are going to die, and the only thing that matters is what you do and accomplish between right now, and when your time comes. A calm settles over you. You become a machine. Phsychologically, you are prepared. The American fighting machine. You survive, as most do, and make it home. But it isn’t over, and you know you will be tasked again. That is the absolute hardest part. And nobody can trly understand, and you do not have the ability or strength to explain it to them. THAT is what is demoralizing our troops. They want to go and fight and WIN! ONE TEAM, ONE FIGHT! But we can’t get it done quickly enough. And the ankle biters in the MSM and the blame America first crowd wants your head, just because you are a member of the American Armed Forces. Putting on your war face is a tremendous strain and takes more out of you than anyone will know, but taking it off, just to have to go through it again a few months later is more than can be taken for long. This is exactly why I was proud to go. I am the old head. Living with the memories of Vietnam gives me a perspective that proved helpful. We didn’t lose, our country gave up and quit and pulled us home. NEVER AGAIN! The consequences are too severe. You have to live through it to understand it, but there is no way we can quit. We can never quit! We are asking more of our troops than can be expected, but we have to stay the course. The MSM want us to fail. They know it will be at the very lives of our troops, but them being right is more important to them. If we were united, the enemy would realize the futility of it. We set the stage by cutting and running in Vietnam. They need to see a motivated and determined America, but the whiners and the media place a divided face on America to the enemy. They said it would be a quagmire, and they have been portraying it as such ever since. If they had been sensitive to America and our troops instead of just sensitive to the radical cowardly left, it would already be over. If they had the desency to admit they were Americans instead of being ashamed, the enemy would have gotten the message. But the message they send is that we are divided, and if they are patient, our politicians and cowards back home will win out and we will surrender. They haven’t thought through the consequences, as they plan on blaming the president and the Republicans, so they have no responsibility. But there is blood on their hands. Blood of Iraqis and Americans alike. They are the propaganda machine. Accentuate the negative and ignore the positive, and brag about being “international” and “independent”. They are neither. They are simply irresponsible. The president has done an admirable job. We don’t expect perfect, that is impossible. But he has backed the troops and stayed the course.
I just wanted to tell you that I understand. The burden you carry is enormous. But you aren’t alone. He HAS to stay the course. You, and all family members carry the burden also, and have a different responsibilty. Get him good news. Fight for his honor. Tell him you are proud of him. Stay focused. Channel your energy in a positive way. This web site will help. See what is going on. Get involved. Make a difference, and tell him about it! Prove to him his country is NOT on the verge of caving and turning their back. There are many wonderful people that support you. If you need an email friend, just ask. That is the responsibilty of those back home they fight to protect. The enemy fighting and dying there will never make it to American soil. This MUST be done! Thank you so much for all you do to support him. All marriages are difficult, in a longer war such as this, with the time away and alone, marriages really suffer. Marriages are worth fighting for to. Fight for it!
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:14 pm 104. Buddy Larsen:Dammit, Fire_Ready, dammit, dammit. That’s so right down into the quick.
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:26 pm 105. Fire_Ready:Buddy,
The voice of experience. My marriage during Vietnam didn’t make it. I try and help prepare the troops. What they do and how they handle themselves is so important. It isn’t the movies. You relax, you die. You think too much about family, you lose focus. You come home, and you need help. The military families are tough and supportive, but things are always changing. Your life will never be the same. The sacrifice of the military families back home is day after day and month after month. Anniversaries, birthdays, Christmas, all pass. You can never make them up, they are forever gone. That is true sacrifice.
The WTC is the image that keeps everything in focus. This hijacking of the memorial is terrible, but can be great therapy for those that need to regain focus on what is important and why. We can’t tell them it will get easier, because it won’t. But we can help keep them tough and focused. They sacrifice so we will not have another 9/11 or possibly worse. The enemy doesn’t respect appeasement, but he does respect firm brutal strength. Our job is to make sure the people that feel that if only they knew us, they would like us never have to find out the cold brutal truth. We don’t even want Michael Moore to find out that they even hate Democrats. Our job is to make sure that the enemy that wants to die for their cause has the opportunity to die over there and not on our soil. Let them fight Americans that can fight back. We are really good at it.
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:46 pm 106. Fire_Ready:Well, I am really gone this time. It is good to get fired up sometimes! I have to work in the morning, and I am east coast time. Thanks to everyone for all you do! Kick butt and make it happen!
Jun 8, 2005 - 10:59 pm 107. Buddy Larsen:yep…there’s been plenty of history to clue the dictators what they were inviting. I don’t see how any of them with the great battles of the Civil War so well-documented, had the nerve to take on the American soldier. But they do. Because, as you so well said, they might can beat politicians. On the ebb and flow of GWoT, I agree with you, we had a window there, when the enemy was back on his heels looking at a united USA and may’ve been ready to quit. But the timing was bad, the election came up, and the out-party just had to go after the White House via a defeatist doom-prophecy, and lo and behold, surprise surprise, the enemy took new heart from it. Kinda makes ya sick, the disconnect between trivial pursuit in DC and life and death in the sands of the Middle East. Well…sandman getting me…adios for the nonce.
Jun 8, 2005 - 11:16 pm 108. madawaskan:I’m sorry guys-I had no right to dump on this thread like that.
Is there any way you can delete what I said?
I’m really wishing I had not done that.
Like this is the last place that deserves me going on a rant.
I am really embarrassed.
Jun 9, 2005 - 12:00 am 109. madawaskan:Fire-
I am going to try to read what you have taken the time to write.[I'm having a hard time facing this]
Your daughter is one lucky lady.
Jun 9, 2005 - 12:02 am 110. uranari:madawaskan,
I hope you did find the time to read what Fire_Ready had to say.
I am also mighty glad I had the chance to read what you had to say.
“And do you think anyone appreciates that a two year old daughter of a military guy is doing more for the War On Terror than some grown men?” I do. Thanks to you, now more than ever. You sure made me think with that sentence. Made me pound the table too.
In our thoughts,
Kyoto
Jun 9, 2005 - 1:15 am 111. Fire_Ready:It was a short night,
Madawaskan,
I have attached your post and made comments. You are awesome!
Ya my husband has been going to the sandbox for years..
It was a regular run for me from 1976 – 1980, and then didn’t go back until 2003.
Since the Gulf War -I’m bloody sick of it. Yes we are hiring guys as civil contractors that retired as long ago as 1985.
You have every right to be!
My husband spent Christmas over there and is already going back for four months to take care of an f’in Gitmo in the desert.
Yep. That is tough.
I’m sick to death of Liberals and I am disgusted with the difference between when it is one of their wars-Bosnia or when it is a war that is simpler to understand such as the Gulf War.
Right on, and well said!
I guess that was because a sovreign nation was invaded and back then Saddam didn’t have Kofi to help him buy appeasement from the Europeans with the Oil for Food Deal.
You are smarter than the average bear!
The Europeans were on board so I guess our MSM was on board and corporations back then even gave discounts to Vets and advertised it. Now they are afraid to lose their Bush hating customers.
Very true, sad to say. But there are many that are still giving discounts. The opposition is much more organized, partly because they have had longer to do so, and partly because now they are afraid and need to feel oppressed. They are scared cowards that cover it up by attacking their owm country. That is sad and pitiful.
I am also getting sick of Republicans to some point that have the luxury of forgetting all of the cr*p shot places are guys are stuck in.
That is understandable. Many have. Politicians use us as pawns. It is all about getting reelected and making money and gaining power. The political bases are different, but the objective is the same. Tell your core voters what they want to hear, and do as little as possible that would anger them.
I am fet up that my dad doesn’t support Bush even though he was a veteran of WW II, Korea, and Vietnam because he has bought into all of Michael Moore and Al Franken’s books.
Now that is really a shame. He must have friends he has listened to that deprive him of independent thought. When he brings it up, don’t acknowledge it, and complement him on serving. He should understand better than anyone the change in attitudes that makes the job of todays American military so much more difficult.
That is what he reads-and Bush is going to take away his social security and I can’t talk to him without being accused of being disrespectful and being told that his politics is none of my business-the rest of my family is a bunch of French Canadians-so you can imagine.
He is probably embarrassed that he is dependent on social security. That is a shame. I can only imagine having the French Canadians in the family…OUCH! That is a tough one. You definately need to get your support elsewhere!
I swear I wish I could opt out.
Hahaha! I like your sense of humor!
And do you think anyone appreciates that a two year old daughter of a military guy is doing more for the War On Terror than some grown men?
The people here do! A child has a simplified vision of what is right, and it is easier to get right sometimes without all the white noise. I am proud of her!
Everyone doesn’t want to hear the divorce rates-the kids growing up with developmental disabilities or the flat out abuse that springs up because of the stress…
You are absolutely right on there. Unfortunately that is part of the tremendous sacrifice that only others that have gone through it can understand.
And now they gotta do this to us with all their millions that they get from shorting the dollar while are loved ones are over there..
And now you are angry! That a girl! You have a cause that needs your perspective! You can make a difference! You can see clearly what others only think about. You are still in the soup, and that is EXACTLY why this is important! Our very honor is at steak. The Memorial is at the very heart of why we must complete what we are doing in the face of cowardly attacks on a regular basis.
I’m sorry guys-I had no right to dump on this thread like that.
I can’t speak for the others, but it was your post that got me moving here. It is the firemen, policemen, victims, and the response of the military that clarifies our position. To stand up for those who can’t because they are dead or overseas. We must represent them and give them our voice. We must do the right thing. There is power to correct it here, before the operation goes final. Not only did you have the right, but your vioce needed to be heard. I am proud of you!
Is there any way you can delete what I said?
I sure hope not. We need it!
I’m really wishing I had not done that.
You’re sweet. Read what I wrote, and help us to press on! We need you!
Like this is the last place that deserves me going on a rant.
This is the place to express your frustrations, then do something about it! That is why this site is so important. It gives you lonely voice wings! You are not alone.
I am really embarrassed.
No need to be. You did absolutely fantastic! You are a valuable contributor! Keep up the good work! This is the place to do it. Channel that energy and frustration into something good and powerful!
You have helped me! I can send emails and letters, but to help an individual makes it real. It will work out. You will see. And you will have been part of it.
Thank you!
Jun 9, 2005 - 4:22 am 112. Terrye:madawaskan:
It is hard to tell how many families Micahel Moore has seperated. The lying son of a bitch.
I know I don’t talk much to my brother since we had our discussion about all this.
He said the right wingers got in my mind and I said at least I had a mind for them to get into and things just went downhill from there.
I can not explain why some people believe that stuff, except to say many of them are just responding to a deep mistrust in all government. That is why we see this unholy alliance between right and left.
I heard that Moore’s movie is a big success in the ME. It is not surprising that people who believe old propaganda like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion believe Moore. [Requires the same level of knowledge.]
But it makes it hard on the folks who actually have to fight the damn war.
I had hoped I would never see another time when soldiers had to go through the crap they went through after Viet nam, but here we are. I don’t think Iraq is like Viet Nam, but I do think the desire of the detractors to see a failure here even if it is an the expence of the men in uniform is like Viet Nam.
As for the memorial, these people need to realize that people from all over the world will see this and we can either show the world we respect our dead or we can let self absorbed lefties use this memorial for their own political purposes.
I say we have to try and stop them.
And take care honey, this too shall pass. My old Grandma used to say that, but it really is true.
Jun 9, 2005 - 4:32 am 113. Terrye:madawaskan:
It is hard to tell how many families Micahel Moore has seperated. The lying son of a bitch.
I know I don’t talk much to my brother since we had our discussion about all this.
He said the right wingers got in my mind and I said at least I had a mind for them to get into and things just went downhill from there.
I can not explain why some people believe that stuff, except to say many of them are just responding to a deep mistrust in all government. That is why we see this unholy alliance between right and left.
I heard that Moore’s movie is a big success in the ME. It is not surprising that people who believe old propaganda like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion believe Moore. [Requires the same level of knowledge.]
But it makes it hard on the folks who actually have to fight the damn war.
I had hoped I would never see another time when soldiers had to go through the crap they went through after Viet nam, but here we are. I don’t think Iraq is like Viet Nam, but I do think the desire of the detractors to see a failure here even if it is an the expence of the men in uniform is like Viet Nam.
As for the memorial, these people need to realize that people from all over the world will see this and we can either show the world we respect our dead or we can let self absorbed lefties use this memorial for their own political purposes.
I say we have to try and stop them.
And take care honey, this too shall pass. My old Grandma used to say that, but it really is true.
Jun 9, 2005 - 4:37 am 114. Terrye:sorry fo rthe double post, my computer did something freaky that I don’t pretend to understand. It was not me, it was the blasted machine.
Fire:
You are eloquent and you know what yu talking about. I bet these people would listen to you. Let them know how you feel.
Jun 9, 2005 - 4:41 am 115. Catherine:The WSJ published Richard J. Tofel’s response to Burlingame in today’s paper. Tofel is President of the International Freedom Center.
I don’t find it either persuasive or reassuring.
It’s probably subscription only, and I don’t think Roger would want me to cut and paste the whole thing. Besides, most of it is blather.
So I’ll quote the passage that concerns me.
This passage appears in the last 3 paragraphs of the piece.
It is exactly what I don’t want to hear from the President of the Freedom Center.
First of all, I’m not sure that the spirit of liberty is the spirit which is ‘not too sure that it is right.’
The spirit of liberty might just as easily be the conviction that you are right, but that other people are entitled to their opinion.
The spirit of liberty could be free speech for all, including people who are, in your view, dead wrong.
So, number one, I don’t personally sign off on Judge Learned Hand defining liberty for all of us who will visit Ground Zero to pay our respects to the dead.
But second, as Debra Burlingame says,
Ground Zero is not the place for lessons from our betters on the nature of freedom and liberty.
It is not the place for transnational elites to hold conferences on democracy promotion and micro-loans in developing countries.
It is not Davos.
And it is certainly not the place for our culture wars.
http://online.wsj.com/article_print/0,,SB111827732803654896,00.html
Jun 9, 2005 - 7:17 am 116. Buddy Larsen:Madawaskan, I disagree with what you said about having no right to let loose. I think you had every right. There’s a big big difference between airing out some truth that needs airing out, and just venting. You did the right thing for the right reason. Print Fire_Ready’s words and fridge-magnet them, and give that two-year old all the frustration, in the form of the love and attention that will put her in good stead for life. But of course you know all that.
Jun 9, 2005 - 7:20 am 117. Bruce W.:Fire and Madawaskan:
It is your words that remind us civilians of the true triviality of our daily struggles and, more importantly, remind us that there but for the grace of God, our military and their families, go we.
You humble and awaken me.
Jun 9, 2005 - 7:24 am 118. Catherine:Bruce W
Thanks for the addresses.
I’m writing & emailing —–
The quote from Judge Learned Hand reminds me of NYU’s response to 9/11, immediately after the attacks.
The details are blurry now, but their instant reaction was to send out messages to all students warning them not to engage in acts of prejudice against Arab students (something like that). They would be harshly punished if they did.
In short, it was a warning.
The administrators sent a warning out to all of their students.
I don’t know how the students felt about this, but I found it deeply offensive.
These are traumatized young people, away from home for the first time, kids who would never even think of Being Mean To A Muslim, and they’re living about 2 miles away from the horror. They can smell it. (The smell was indescribable.)
So what do they get from their university administration?
A pre-emptive scolding.
What I dislike so profoundly about this kind of nanny-nanny finger-shaking is the assumption that the George Soros’s of the world are our moral superiors.
Without rich liberals and international conference centers and exhibits on Chilean dissidents, we would riot in the streets.
Well, I say George Soros has been rioting in the streets for far too long now.
Time for him to take a seat.
Jun 9, 2005 - 7:28 am 119. Bruce W.:I repeat my post from last night (and I’m off to the fax machines):
For recent visitors here who are outraged by what Ms. Burlingame described in her article, here’s a recap of contact info submitted during the day for some suggested recipients of your written rage, most importantly Governor Pataki.
Perhaps this link is all you need:
Link…
Take Back the Memorial
But here’s info located elsewhere in this comment string:
Governor George E. Pataki
State Capitol
Albany, NY 12224
Fax 518.473.7669
Rudolph W. Giuliani
Giuliani Partners LLC
5 Times Square
New York, NY 10036
Fax 212.931.7310
President Bush
Fax 512.637.8800
Senator Charles E. Schumer
New York City
757 Third Avenue
Suite 17-02
New York, NY 10017
Fax 212.486.7693 (Manhattan)
202.228.3027 (DC)
Senator Hillary R. Clinton
Fax 212.688.7444 (Manhattan)
202.228.0282 (DC)
Mayor Bloomberg
Fax: 212.788.9711
Doug Forrester
Forrester for Governor
29 Emmons Drive C-10
Princeton, NJ 08540
info@doug2005.com
Fax: 609.452.0008
NY Att’y Gen’l Elliot Spitzer
Fax: 212.416.8139
Acting Governor Richard J. Codey
Governor’s North Jersey Office
153 Halsey Street, 7th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
Fax: 609.292.3454
Senator John Corzine
FAX: (202) 228-2197 DC
TDD/TTY): (202) 224-1984
FAX: (973) 645-0502
FAX: (856) 546-1526
International Freedom Center
120 Broadway, 31st Floor
New York, NY 10271
Fax (212) 336-6727
“Also, alert the radio guys at their websites: Limbaugh, Medved, Hewitt, Prager, Ingraham, O’Reilly, Hannity.”
Jun 9, 2005 - 7:40 am 120. Buddy Larsen:Jacob Laksin on the memorial, in FrontPage:
Jun 9, 2005 - 7:48 am 121. Bruce W.:Catherine: My pleasure (or is it more my displeasure at needing to do so?)
Keep up the effort.
Next step for me: spread the word to our e-mail-enabled but non blog-reading friends and family.
IFC President Tofel gave a rebuttal of sorts that I read in the WSJ Opinion Journal this morning. If enough countries of the World (especially those that rely on our protection) had stayed with US in the WoT/IslamoFascism, I’d be more inclined to listen to the IFC’s notion of an International Freedom theme at Ground Zero. They didn’t, so I’m not.
To allow the IFC plan, in my mind, would be like adding a wing to the Auschwitz memorial that explored the plight of the poor Germans during the Depression exacerbated by being over-punished for the First War. There’s a place for such an exploration perhaps, but certainly far, far removed from the ovens.
Jun 9, 2005 - 8:02 am 122. Katherine:This article is Opinion Page and consequently free
ttp://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006795
Regarding the quote: where they dig up that judge?
Spirit of liberty is nothing but ìnot too sure that it is rightî; if that were the case nobody ever would dedicate their fortunes and sacred honor to it.
I can tell you that that people who ever have been oppressed are absolutely, morally certain that liberty is RIGHT and that it should belong to them.
But I guess this is ìliberty ì as Mike Moore and Geoorge Soros understand it: not the painful, helpless yearning for freedom that every of every individual shut in a dreary and often bloody prison of you average tyranny. It is just the faux liberty of those who never went without and never know that it cannot be there so they equate it with some particular privilege that was denied to them(I know of Sorosí childhood but I wonder how much he understood then and how much he has forgotten). Their understanding of America, the Bill of Rights, our freedoms is on par with the terrorists of ripping our flag (Donít be afraid…we have a legal permit…come and join us…donít be afraid to speak out…This is not like the countries back at home where you raise your voice against the government and they take you in for torture. No…this is one of the loopholes of this government). They can only care about those freedoms as far they benefit them and them only. They risk nothing to spewing hatred against this country, they do not even risk their fortunes for something they claim is the goal of their lives – unseating the president, how worthy – because, really who would want to make oneself uncomfortable.
Playing dissident is profitable and fun in the US. One can make lots of money and claim moral superiority over Solzhenitsyn.
Jun 9, 2005 - 8:03 am 123. Katherine:Sorry for the link
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006795
Jun 9, 2005 - 8:12 am 124. Jamie Irons:Katherine
I’m so glad to see you posting again.
Just for old times’ sake, let me say it once more:
You had me at “crawl space!”
Jamie Irons
Jun 9, 2005 - 8:44 am 125. Knucklehead:Fire_Ready and Madawaskan,
I have just gone through this thread and the incredible contributions you have made to it. I freely confess that I am a knucklehead and an inarticulate one at that and, therefore, will completely botch the point I am going to try and make but I am compelled to make the effort.
For starters I want to say “Thank you!”. In a sense I want to say nothing more than that but, more importantly (and I sincerely hope you will understand), nothing less.
You’re words here have helped me to, at least momentarily, grab hold of something I find fleeting, slippery. That “something” is the meaning of the word courage.
To have any hope of getting even a tenuous fix on what courage is or means one must, IMO, know what fear is. Fear is not anxiety or concern – it is something wholely different. We all too easily confuse concern or anxiety with fear but fear comes when life itself is in clear, present, and immediate danger beyond even a shadow of doubt.
It needn’t be one’s own life – the life of a loved one, a child or parent or spouse is more than sufficient – but experiencing a moment when the thought “so this is how I will die” enters one’s consciousness brings the thing into rather sharp focus.
Fear is, at it’s very essences it seems to me, facing the unequivocle risk of losing something of inestimable value that cannot, under any circumstances, be replaced or recovered.
Getting a fix on fear is a necessary but insuffiecient prerequisite for gaining some understanding of courage. The reason I say it is insufficient is that figuratively speaking, fear is being cognizant that the “bullet is headed one’s way with accuracy”.
How one deals with the fear that such knowledge presents may or may not exhibit or even require courage. Courage is not a matter of whether one can or does dogde the bullet. Courage is not the absence of panic. Functioning under stress and in the presence of danger is not necessarily an example of behaving with courage. That even I am capable of and have accomplished. Yet, to my knowledge, I have never behaved with courage.
Courage is functioning, with integrity, while one has a full understanding that our figurative bullet is, or most certainly will be, present and coming in one’s direction.
This fleeting and slippery understanding was brought home to me at a personal level within two or three days of 9/11. Not that I hadn’t given it thought or recognized it but I had it brought home at very personal and clear level when I ran into a good friend who I knew was almost certainly in the South Tower. When I ran into him a couple days later it was completely obvious by his demeanor that he had been.
In addition to being obviously shaken to the core he seemed physically “beat up” and, naturally, I asked him if he was OK and if he been injured. It was then that he looked me straight in the eyes in a way I will never forget and said something I will never forget. What he said was, “I was so frightened and so desperate to get out of that flaming building that I ran so hard that I tore myself up (BTW, this is not an old or unfit man). And as hard as I was running to get away from there, there were police and firemen running to get into there.”
Those were people exhibiting courage.
That, Fire_Ready and Madawaskan, is what you have exhibited – courage. And I sincerely thank you for allowing me to see it and ponder it.
Jun 9, 2005 - 9:32 am 126. Red Chicagoan:As always, I step away for personal business and the thread turns fascinating.
Piranha- Soros coming into the market place is like when you were growing up, you were quietly playing, perhaps after your bedtime, and you heard one of your parents’ footsteps coming down the hall. Your experience tells you, by the sound of those footsteps, not only which parent it is, but whether that parent is coming angrily or not. In the markets I described, Soros has VERY big feet. Sorry for the long delay in responding. Also, he likes to use a PR company to push his trades and in his “personal” capacity as “global” financial advisor to anyone that’s willing to listen to his “unique” views on the global economy. Hint: do a search on “Dollar Diversity” nothing dated before the election? Isn’t that odd? Sorry, that was snarky. Still, when he trades, it’s like an elephant in the tent.
Jun 9, 2005 - 10:40 am 127. Kyda Sylvester:To be sure, the International Freedom Center will host debates and note points of view with which you–and I–will disagree [oh not you, Mr. Tofel, surely not you]. But that is the point, the proof of our society’s enduring self-confidence and humanity. Moreover, the International Freedom Center will rise above the politics of the moment. It will not exist to precisely define “freedom” or to tell people what to think, but to get them to think–and to act in the service of freedom as they see it [I shudder to think]. And it will always do so in a manner respectful of the victims of September 11.
I gather this is supposed to be reassuring? I’m particularly amused by the illusion that he and his cohorts are the Lincolns of our time. He ignores those things that Lincoln knew still had to be done to facilitate that “new birth of freedom” and the lengths to which he was willing to go to insure same.
He seems to believe that in the future Americans will not necessarily remember what happened at Ground Zero, but will know, courtesy of the International Freedom Center, how those events are measured. That’s the whole point, Mr. Tofel. We don’t want those measurements taken by the likes of you.
What claptrap. You disgust me, Mr. Tofel, even more so than yesterday.
Nothing so far on the radio. Time to redouble efforts.
Jun 9, 2005 - 12:13 pm 128. Buddy Larsen:Red Chicagoan, according to Trader Monthly Magazine, one of Soros’ trading entities, the Quantum Endowment Fund, is a hedge fund that traded during the election yr 2004 to the tune of one-quarter billion dollars in profits.
Jun 9, 2005 - 12:37 pm 129. Terrye:Kyda:
What if acting in the service of freedom as they know it entails flying planes into buildings?
Why can’t they just show respect and have a memorial to the dead? why do they have to ruin everything for everyone else?
Jun 9, 2005 - 1:42 pm 130. Buddy Larsen:Terrye, the short answer is, they’re a buncha dickheads.
Jun 9, 2005 - 1:45 pm 131. Knucklehead:Buddy,
I think that is also the long answer.
Jun 9, 2005 - 3:05 pm 132. Fire_Ready:Another lovely day to be alive. I love the rain. My youngest daughter always tells me that is because I spent so much time away from her in the desert. I just call it liquid sunshine! I heard that somewhere, and it stuck!
The delay in exposure I believe is because the shows were already set, but tomorrow will tell the tale. This is for the long haul, not just a flash and gone. We need to work together and see it through.
The ball rolls slow at first, but when it gains momentum, it will be a memorial unto itself. Good strong willed people with vision and integrity making things happen. Will it be just what we expect? Probably not. But it will NOT be what should never have even been considered. It will become a political issue with teeth. People vote…..and politicians posture. We just need to help them with their posture. To have good posture you have to have a spine. The politician need a cause, and we will clarify it for them!
ONE TEAM, ONE FIGHT! I still like “LET”S ROLL!!!!”
It is an honor to work with everyone. I hope to see Madawaskan return! This has been a very positive post! Thanks!
Jun 9, 2005 - 4:05 pm 133. Fire_Ready:When the Vietnam Memorial was being developed, I didn’t know if it would work. There were some things in the design that concerned me. But at it’s heart was the memory of the fallen. Fortunately, there were no inhumanity to man symbolic garbage. It is far more powerful than I ever dreamed. Even now, the vets come for the first time. It always brings sorrow. But we now have a place to drop off our burdens and come back periodically to visit instead of carrying the load with us all the time. A way to say hello. A way to say goodbye. A way to say I remember, and I will be back. I will join you once again. A way to do it in our own way and in our own time. After hours, in the dim light, you can feel them. They hear you. They soothe your soul and send you on your way back to your other life. They tell you to live, really live, for them as well. You carry their blessing when you leave. They are always glad to see you return and are never sad to see you leave. They live through you, so get on with it!
That is what is needed at Ground Zero. They are all there. They can hold and comfort. They can send us on our way. But we can’t convolute the message with garbage that does not belong. They can build their diversity center across the street, but we need our quiet space right where it needs to be. It should ALL be there, not in a hangar far away. The children, the wives and husbands, the heroes that survived need this simplicity. It shouldn’t be so complex that most miss the point altogether and become alienated. This should be simple, and bring everyone together, regardless of thier affiliations. There were people of all colors, religions and countries. Males, females, and confused. Democrats, Republicans, Lebertarians and Independents. They were all Americans. Even the ones not officially Americans became American in death. We need a simple unifying monument that can be translated by those that need it, any way the need to. We need simplicity. A place to grieve. Whether you are from the Midwest and have never been to New York, or a native son or daughter, it must be a place of peace for you. A special place, just for you when you need it. A place that says “Come join us, come and be quiet. Come, come….and heal. We are all here.”
Please continue the fight. Some things are worth fighting for.
Jun 9, 2005 - 4:28 pm 134. Buddy Larsen:Fire_Ready, here’s a link from Instapundit with some fresh thoughts from Jeff Jarvis. Sure do appreciate your posts. Time to write that book? You’ve been at the balance points of the culture, you got the authenticity and the way with words. From what I can tell, this thing is going to up for discussion for a few months yet. We need to steady build the picture of who’s who on the question. A snail letter from you to the NYTimes would be good. Kyda Sylvester has had ‘em published there, so they will print an adverse opinion!
Jun 9, 2005 - 8:51 pm 135. Fire_Ready:Thank you Buddy. I posted there also. It is a good one!
A book would be cool, but I don’t seem to have the time or the patience right now. Maybe when I grow up?
I will look into a letter to the NY Times. I have bitten off more than I can chew at the moment, and I am behind in all of them.
Have a great day!
Jun 10, 2005 - 1:52 am