42 Comments

1. ahem:

If they ever need our help in the future, they can just go whistle…

Jun 26, 2005 - 3:00 pm 2. Kyda Sylvester:

Commenters say there is more to the story (there’s a link, but the news item is in German). Apparently the private memorial is on leased land and the lease is up so they’ve been court ordered to vacate.

Seems simple enough–it’s the owner of the lot who doesn’t want the memorial there. So why are the politicians blathering on about equating East German atrocities with Nazi atrocities? Could they move it elsewhere (is that lot where Checkpoint Charlie actually was)? Has anyone offered to buy it?

Jun 26, 2005 - 3:14 pm 3. Terrye:

Kyda:

I wondered the same thing.

Maybe they just want to forget what the crosses represent.

Jun 26, 2005 - 3:17 pm 4. chuck:

I don’t really care about this all that much. Let the Germans worry about it. Speaking of which, I am sometimes reminded of the remark “Krauts are always either at your throat or at your feet.” Yeah, I know it’s unkind and painting with a broad brush, but every so often these last few years I wonder if there isn’t a little itty bit of truth to it.

Jun 26, 2005 - 3:27 pm 5. David Thomson:

ìHopefully the media present at the meeting will also quiz Mr. Schroeder on the matter.î

What is oneís chances of winning the lottery? This will not happen unless it will result in hurting George W. Bush. How can this story be spinned to place the blame on the alleged second coming of Adolph Hitler? And why arenít we sensitive to the feelings of the Communists? Have we no pity? Whatís millions of victims among friends? Donít we understand the necessity of breaking a few eggs to make an omelet?

Too many Germans wish to bury history. They prefer to perceive themselves as victims. The rest of the world has been unfair towards them. Germany was never the aggressor throughout the 20th century, but placed in the awkward predicament of merely defending its interests. This is the first time Iíve heard about this outrage. Almost surely, it will be buried in the back pages of the New York Times and the other MSM outlets. Will the increasingly disappointing Fox News even give it five minutes?

Jun 26, 2005 - 3:42 pm 6. richard mcenroe:

Those who forget the past are condemned to…

…uhh…

…vote the Democratic ticket?

…think Hillary’s a centrist?

…quote Dick Durbin?

…read Arianna Huffington?

…quote a NYT editorial in polite company?

…think Ward Churchill’s being picked on?

Jun 26, 2005 - 3:59 pm 7. Knucklehead:

I spent many, many hours at Checkpoint Charlie. Most of those hours were spent sitting in an M60 MBT. My predicted lifespan, had the “balloon gone up”, was something on the order of 12-15 minutes. Germany can go f*ck itself if it does this and I don’t give a rat’s ass if there’s a expiring lease or “more to the story”.

I’ve been back to Berlin, but not since The Wall was torn down. I have numerous friends who’ve been back since. The attitude they detect from Berliners is a deep wish to pretend The Wall never existed. It doesn’t surprise me in the least and I knew the city and its people quite well. They can stick their heads up the darkest hole they can find but I won’t. Germany is dead to me. A once upon a time friend who is now my enemy.

Jun 26, 2005 - 4:30 pm 8. richard mcenroe:

Don’t worry. Checkpoint Charlie will be back, along with all the other checkpoints controlling the exits from the infidel ghettos, insh’Allah…

Jun 26, 2005 - 5:25 pm 9. DeliLama:

If I recall correctly, the actual structure of Checkpoint Charlie was moved somewhere (in the US?).

Jun 26, 2005 - 5:57 pm 10. jedrury:

I was there in mid March. Berlin, jam packed with huge building cranes, is a city devoid of feeling with the exception of this simple moving make shift monument.

Jun 26, 2005 - 6:44 pm 11. Kevin P:

Roger;

I have been asking this question for the last couple of years- Isn’t it about time we get out of the european continent? Or at least move our base into Poland, I imagine they would love the money generated by our NATO troops. I am not talking about severing ties but much of europe seems to feel free to hide behind our protection, they waited for us to initiate action in the Balkans, and then they sh## on us as if we have been this huge imposition to them by keeping Moscow off their back. I will bow to those who have more milatay wisdom if this is a bad idea. It’s not even Checkpoint Charlie, it’s the constant sneering and lectures. If europe is going to let us stay and be their watchdogs then treat us with respect. If we are such a burden then ask us to leave.It’s their country. They seem to want us to stay while crapping on us at the same time.

Kevin Peters

Jun 26, 2005 - 7:01 pm 12. klrfz1:

Here’s the link to a BBC article I found. Seems the original Checkpoint Charlie tower was bulldozed in the final few days of the Clinton administration.

What does it all mean? I dunno. Except those 1000 crosses will be gone a week from tomorrow. Gone but not forgotten.

Thank you, Knucklehead, for your service.

Jun 26, 2005 - 7:14 pm 13. ex-democrat:

kevin — VDH recommends the same thing.

Jun 26, 2005 - 7:31 pm 14. Buddy Larsen:

Thanks for puttin’ yourself on the line, Knucklehead. 12-15 minutes sounds like a long time, though, right there nose-to-nose in the flashpoint. The first shot would’ve been at an M60, probably.

Jun 26, 2005 - 8:24 pm 15. HA:

It can now be said. The Cold War is over and America lost.

The USSR was not a catalyst for Marxism. It was a barrier. In spite the heroic efforts of Western leftists like Duranty to downplay Stalin’s horrors, they knew the reality. So they grudgingly went along with America’s fight to resist Soviet expansion.

But with the Soviet collapse, Western Marxists were truly liberated. Only not in the sense that Americans thought. Liberated from the Soviet spectre, Western Marxists could muster all their historic European pathologies and turn it against the one and only object they truly hate. America and the classic liberalism it represents.

We live in dangerous times. We are seeing a synchronized wildfire of global madness. Western Europe and Latin Americans are embracing Marxism. Muslims are embracing jihad. China is embracing nationalist imperialism. All are fueled by hatred and they are uniting against us. The threat to freedom is just as great as it was at the height of WWII and the Cold War.

And I don’t see how America can stand up to all these threats when we are divided between the traditional right-wing, and a left-wing that has embraced the madness.

America no longer has the collective intellect to recognize the threat, or the collective will to fight it. I’m as pessimistic about the future of this country and the rest of the world as I have ever been. I think we stand at the edge of an abyss of a new Dark Age. I don’t see anything to keep us from stepping off. God help us all.

Jun 27, 2005 - 4:42 am 16. Ralf Goergens:

“Krauts are always either at your throat or at your feet.”

That was true when German still was an authoritarian society, and goes for all authoritarian societies. People want to get as high up the opecking order as possible, so as long as you haven’t shown them who is boss, they’ll indeed be, figuratively speaking, at your throat. Once you have proven yourself to be stronger in some sense, they’ll be submissive, again figuratively speaking, at your feet. They only klnow these extremes, and have no concept of equals.

But that’s all in the past now, as far as most Germans are concerned.

As to the matter at hand, it is a private, not a public one, and best taken up with the private parties involved.

Jun 27, 2005 - 4:50 am 17. HA:

Roger,

Gerhard Schroeder is on a state visit TODAY. I think it is essential that the media does not miss this opportunity to demand of Schroeder whether he supports the destruction of Checkpoint Charlie on July 4th. But we all know they won’t do it unless they are provoked.

This is where you come in. You hold a prominent place in the blogosphere. Someone in your position has the power to start a blogswarm that might generate enough spontaneous attention to get at least ONE journalist to ask Schroeder whether he supports this demolition.

Please go issue a call for journalists to ask this question.

Jun 27, 2005 - 4:50 am 18. syn:

These days may be dark, yet I will lay my life down to defend freedom. I know I am not alone.

Jun 27, 2005 - 5:14 am 19. Knucklehead:

I suppose I should clarify or explain my invective.

It is not the removal or even destruction of “Checkpoint Charlie” that I am livid about. The real thing was dismantled 15 years ago and moved to a museum. It is easy to google up some history of Checkpoint Charlie.

Checkpoint Charlie was removed on June 22, 1990. The former Allied guardhouses are now located in the

Allied Museum.

A copy of the American guardhouse was errected on the original place on August 13, 2000.

The East German watch tower at Checkpoint Charlie was demolished by the property owner Checkpoint Charlie Service Company on December 9, 2000.

The link the Klrfz1 provided is an article about the demolition of the East German watch tower.

The thing that is, by court order, to be torn down on July 4 is a replica built on the original site by a group that leased the property to maintain as a memorial. There are also crosses erected for the more than 1,000 people who died trying to get through the wall and into the “west”.

While I certainly believe that a memorial should stand there to remind everyone of the fate of nazism, marxism and the FSU’s inhumanity to man, the Germans and Berliners are free to shove their heads as far up their nether regions as they wish. It is the selection of the date that is a slap in the face – I have no doubt it is an intentional insult.

Jun 27, 2005 - 6:21 am 20. Ralf Goergens:

Knucklehead,

It is the selection of the date that is a slap in the face – I have no doubt it is an intentional insult.

The date was chosen by a court, and the 4th of July doesn’t mean anything to us.

Jun 27, 2005 - 6:32 am 21. Knucklehead:

The date was chosen by a court, and the 4th of July doesn’t mean anything to us.

With all due respect, Ralf, I’m not buying it.

A German court ordered the bulldozing of a memorial. There is nothing in Berlin more attached to “Americans” than Checkpoint Charlie – nothing. Berliners are remarkably politically atuned people – it is part of what Berlin and Berliners are all about.

Suggesting that the judge who picked the date did so by mere happenstance is far too long a stretch.

Jun 27, 2005 - 7:40 am 22. Knucklehead:

Ralf,

I meant to mention this in my previous post. When dealing with memorials one must always give some thought to dates. One wouldn’t, for example, issue a court order to implode Templehof on May 12, or remove a workers memorial on May 1, etc, unless one specifically wanted to make a statement.

I can just see this German judge scanning his calendar for a convenient date, spotting 4 Juli, and having his face break out in a giant grin while he exclaimed, “ausgezeichnet!”

Jun 27, 2005 - 7:49 am 23. Buddy Larsen:

HA, thanks for the lift! I was feeling a little down before I read your post!

Jun 27, 2005 - 8:26 am 24. Buddy Larsen:

HA, didn’t mean to be glib. I know how you feel, it’s always with the ups and downs on holding the barbarians at the gate. But here’s this.

Jun 27, 2005 - 10:01 am 25. Joe Schmoe:

Are we sure the judge understood the significance of the July 4 date? A lot of Eurpoeans, even well-educated ones, are surprisingly parochial. I wouldn’t be surprsied if they didn’t know about July 4.

I have no idea when Guy Fawkes day is, or Bastille Day (isn’t it in July too?), or the Crysanthemum Festival, etc.

Jun 27, 2005 - 10:37 am 26. Knucklehead:

Joe,

Imagining that the significance of July 4 was unknown and remained requires far too much “benefit of the doubt”. If some US city decided, for example, to grant permission to tear down some memorial of the French Revolution and, by sheer happenstance, selected Bastille Day as the date, you can rest assured that somebody involved would say, “Yo, bro, maybe you wanna pick anudder day ’cause, yaknow, like, ummm… dude – that’s Bastille Day and dis ding heah is makin’ enough bad headlines already.”

In fact, one of the links in Medienkritik’s article claims

To add insult to injury, the Berlin Magistrate’s Court responsible for enforcement, scheduled the demolition to include complete removal of the crosses and Berlin Wall segment on the site to coincide with July 4th, U.S. Independence Day. The BAG subsequently refused to request rescheduling of the eviction despite strong recommendations by members of Berlin’s American community.

So, give the court and the company who owns the poperty the benefit of the doubt – they didn’t realize that the date selected might be a bit hurtful to some of the folks for whom Checkpoint Charlie has meaning.

That ignorance, had it existed, would have lasted about five minutes or less and, upon being informed, they could easily have said, “Ich verstehe Ihre best¸rzung. Wir werden bis zum Dienstag warten.”

Jun 27, 2005 - 11:49 am 27. Ralf Goergens:

Knucklehead,

that’s bureaucratic stubborness, not malice.

Jun 27, 2005 - 11:54 am 28. Knucklehead:

Well, chalk up my writing off of Germany as stubborness, not malice. The effect is identical.

Jun 27, 2005 - 12:02 pm 29. Ralf Goergens:

Well, chalk up my writing off of Germany as stubborness, not malice. The effect is identical.

Well, yes, you are stubborn. Anyway, nobody is trying to insult you.

Jun 27, 2005 - 12:35 pm 30. Buddy Larsen:

Actually, “stubborn” would be the word for one who hadn’t put their butt on the line defending the place. As is, Knucklehead and Ralf, a better word would be “concerned” perhaps.

Jun 27, 2005 - 1:02 pm 31. Knucklehead:

No, Buddy, I am quite capable of extreme stubborness and will exercise that capability in this case. I’m finished with Germany and this July 4th Checkpoint Charlie Chop Down merely reinforces my desire to remain steadfast in my stubborness.

The Berlin court and the BAG’s “bureaucratic stubborness” do me no personal harm and my personal stubborness will do them, nor Germany as a whole, any harm. Just another choice.

Jun 27, 2005 - 1:34 pm 32. Ralf Goergens:

Knucklehead,

one last attempt:

1) This is an exhibit, and not a mnonument

2) There are museums dedicated to this purpose

3) The 4th of July is a Monday, and clearing away is a Monday morning job, nothing more. They want this to be over with.

Jun 28, 2005 - 3:17 am 33. Ralf Goergens:

And, oh yes, there are museams dedicated to Checkpoint Charlie

Jun 28, 2005 - 3:19 am 34. HA:

Buddy,

didn’t mean to be glib

That’s OK. My comment was a bit of a buzz-killer.

Jun 28, 2005 - 3:38 am 35. Knucklehead:

Ralf,

There is no need to make any attempts, last or otherwise. I find grudges ponderous to carry so I keep only a very select few.

I am aware of, and havementioned, your points #1 and #2. As for #3, the Berlin court and BAG have, to paraphrase Jacque Chirac, missed an opportunity to pick a different Monday.

Jun 28, 2005 - 4:13 am 36. HA:

Buddy,

After leaving Roger’s place, I wandered over to Belmont Club and came across this post:

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/06/oh-say-can-you-see.html

As someone who is always looking to the past for parallels, Wretchard’s post made me realize something. For a long time, I had seen the period leading up to WWII as the best prior historical precedent. But after reading that post, it dawned on me that the era leading up to the American Civil War provides the most applicable precedent.

In this era of globalization, it is becoming clear that the world can no longer exist half-free and half-slave. At some point in time, we will either be all free or all enslaved. The tyrant can’t abide the free, and the free cannot abide the tyrant. The inevitable conflict is rapidly approaching.

Jun 28, 2005 - 4:18 am 37. Knucklehead:

HA,

Excellent point. Sometimes the answer to the question, “Can’t we all just get along?” is a resounding “No!”. At some points in history the travesty and tragedy of going along to get along become far too obvious to be ignored.

It is far too late to go on pretending we’re tip-toeing our way through tulips – we’re many miles into the depths of a minefield. No more Missouri Compromises or Dread Scott decisions. No more McClellans. It is time, beyond time, to choose a side and contribute in whatever way one can contribute.

No doubt it is just one of my funks but my patience and tolerance for the “other side” are growing ever thinner. To me the situation is nearly beyond any matter of differences of strongly held opinion. We’ve reached the point of choosing which side one stands on and I find myself ever more frequently looking as deeply as I can as I can manage into the eyes of some my fellow human beings and realizing they have chosen the other side.

I don’t like it but so be it.

Jun 28, 2005 - 5:27 am 38. Bob:

Knucklehead says: “There is nothing in Berlin more attached to ‘Americans’ than Checkpoint Charlie – nothing.”

Well dang me, Knucks, I thought it was Teufelsberg.

Ex- (NOT retired) SP6 Bob, Co. B, USASAFS Berlin ‘67 – ‘70.

Jun 28, 2005 - 9:38 am 39. Knucklehead:

Well, Bob, I have to harumphingly admit that you may have a point. Still, I don’t see how it matters to my overall hissey fit and my implacable determination to keep a monkey grip upon this particular grudge. And besides, the Hun bastids tore that down and probably spit on it also, didn’t they?

Jun 28, 2005 - 9:54 am 40. Knucklehead:

Oh, BTW, Bob, I gather you survived one or two of these.

Kind of a shame to have to abandon folks who do those sorts of things but, then again, it was a young man’s game anyway.

Jun 28, 2005 - 10:20 am 41. jane m:

This subject was aired intensively over at David’s Medienkritik. Turns out this is a private enterprise and nothing to do with the government of Berlin or Germany. The land is owned by a German bank and was leased for a finite period of time to a German woman who wanted to actually erect this monument as a piece of art. It was never intended by the bank to make this a permanent arrangement.

When the contracted period of time was up, the bank wanted it’s property back. The artist did not want to dismantle her art work and so refused to honor the terms of the contract. The bank took her to court and the court gave the bank the property back with the order to remove the crosses so the bank could use, sell or lease it’s property once again.

The German government had no part in any of this.

Jun 28, 2005 - 9:00 pm 42. HA:

Knucklehead,

It is time, beyond time, to choose a side and contribute in whatever way one can contribute.

Amen, brother. The problem at the moment is that we don’t have any real leadership. We need someobody who will “connect the dots.” Bush isn’t doing it, at least not publicly.

We have a massive arms buildup in China while France and Germany are trying to change EU policy to sell them arms. We have a nuclear North Korea and a China who won’t do cut them off. We have a pre-nuclear Iran and Russia is selling them nuclear technology. We have Castro and Chavez aligning with Iran, Al Qaeda, China and the narco-terrorists to build a Latin American Communist sphere. We have the Saudis funding madrassas all around the world, including right here in America.

Is it unreasonable to ask whether there is some level of coordination going on and where it is leading?

Jun 29, 2005 - 3:46 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: