35 Comments

1. PeterUK:

If Yahoo will pass information to a totalitarian government,the company would have no qualms about giving information to wester bovernents.Obviously Yahoo cannot be trusted with our privacy,can any of these companies be trusted?

Perhaps a rating system of trustworthyness can be set up so users best pick their provider.

As a side issue does anyone now think that China can truly achieve the economic miracle with a corrupt system of government without the turmoil associated with such systems?

Sep 11, 2005 - 5:28 am 2. Richard Nieporent:

Roger you are being much too hard on Jerry Yang. After all he was just following orders!

Sep 11, 2005 - 5:34 am 3. ryoushi:

See, not all references to Nazi Germany violate Godwin’s Law.

Sep 11, 2005 - 6:04 am 4. David Thomson:

Jerry Yang almost certainly possess a high IQ. We can take it for granted that he placed at the top of his graduating class. Unfortunately, this young man probably hasnít spent more than a few hours of his life worrying about the threat of totalitarianism. He avoids such discussions as much as possible. Yang only cares about his bank account and place on the pecking order of Yahoo.com. He is not evil, but simply amoral. What can be done about folks like him? We as consumers can make Yangís life miserable. There is nothing stopping us from criticizing Yahoo. The bad publicity will get their attention.

Capitalism deserves two cheers, and not three. Ayn Rand got a little goofy in her writings. Adam Smith was far more insightful and balanced. He knew that they will not hesitate to collude against the consumer. Saints like Randís fictional Howard Roark are few and far between. Capitalists do not deserve our contempt. We should, though, make sure of check and balancing their behavior.

Sep 11, 2005 - 6:23 am 5. timmah!:

Evidently Yahoo prefer their spot at the trough to withdrawing from business in a severely compromised climate. Still no Yahoo divestiture campaign from the college lefties?

Sep 11, 2005 - 6:54 am 6. madawaskan:

I cannot believe this.

Idiots-yahoos.

When I first read about this I thought they will be smart enough to find a way not to co-operate-lose it, lose it in translation-anything.

Instead-I guess the almighty Chinese Yuan-won.

Disgusting.

Sep 11, 2005 - 7:10 am 7. richard mcenroe:

Actually, I think Yahoo! right now is more on a par with the good German companies whose correspondence was found after the war, unctuously assuring Hitler’s government they could put in the lowest bid for quality ovens…

And I was about to switch over to SBC Yahoo DSL, too. Shit.

Sep 11, 2005 - 8:46 am 8. leejudt:

There is a disquieting story on Haaretz this morning:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/623440.html

It says in part that:

>

Is this how Blair and the Brits plan on fighting terrorism, by giving in to their demands?

I haven?t seen much coverage in the press on this item and I am hoping the Mr. Simon will comment on it, very soon.

Sep 11, 2005 - 8:53 am 9. PeterUK:

I meant to send this last night but sleep got me first.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1775068,00.html

It is still an area of bewilderment to me that Britain’s Muslims, predominantly from Bangladesh and Pakistan and not Arabs, have such an affinity with Palestine.

Some of the member of the committee which produced this advice were chosen on the principle of “It is better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.”

Unfortunately some of them have only one tent,and it isn’t Tony Blair’s.

Leejudt,

It isn’t the British,the people,even dyed in the wool liberals, are sick to death of this shit! There seems to be no limit to what is deemed offensive,for this we can thank the liberal left cretins who thought political correctness was such a wizard wheeze to gain control of society.

Now,they have no idea what to do,their plan is unravelling before their eyes,if it were not so serious,I would laugh myself sick!

Sep 11, 2005 - 10:23 am 10. WichitaBoy:

The concepts of “freedom” and “civil disobedience” may make no sense in a Chinese context. I suggest a perusal of this interesting article, which asserts that, since the Chinese mega-states developed at a much earlier period and in a much more organized fashion than comparable European states, they were able to eradicate primitive notions of freedom at an early date.

Moreover, the claim is that the survival of the notion of “freedom” in the European states was essentially an anomaly based on the weakness of those very states. At a time when the political development of the Mediterranean consisted of nothing but isolated city-states, the Chinese Empire contained a massive and well-organized bureaucracy.

In the late third century BC the Qin state’s officials noted the rainfall and the state of the crops field by field throughout the empire and measured the girth of every ox every year, giving out rewards and punishments depending on how may inches each beast gained or lost. All the members of all the households in the groups of five were liable to be held criminally responsible for any offence committed by any of them that was not reported by the neighbours before it was discovered by the authorities. These records were compiled by officials who were themselves subject to strict discipline and held their jobs by license and not by right. The essentially feudal notion of job tenure for life had no place in the Chinese civil service.

As for the future, it’s Chinese, not European. This interview with Lee Kuan Yew is a must read.

In 50 years I see China, Korea and Japan at the high-tech end of the value chain. Look at the numbers and quality of the engineers and scientists they produce and you know that this is where the R&D will be done. The Chinese have a space programme, they’re going to put a man on the Moon and nobody sold them that technology. We have to face that.

More discussion can be found here.

Sep 11, 2005 - 10:55 am 11. PeterUK:

The Communist Revolution needs to be considered,but basically “How You Gonna Keep’em Down on the Farm After They’ve Seen Paree?”

Sep 11, 2005 - 12:37 pm 12. PacRim Jim:

Money, money, money, money, money,…

Do you Yahoo?

Sep 11, 2005 - 12:49 pm 13. Godzilla:

For an enterprising cadre of programmers who oppose this sort of information-letting, Microsoft’s and Yahoo’s compliance with the communists is an excellent opportunity to start working on alternative portals. I use Yahoo because it’s free and it’s a good portal, and I also use Internet Explorer for the same reasons. There’s nothing magical about these technologies though. Any group of programmers can create a portal. I’ve lost track of all the portals that are out here, but if Netscape values privacy more than Yahoo and Microsoft, then Netscape can act as an alternative to both Yahoo and Internet Explorer.

Sep 11, 2005 - 12:58 pm 14. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

“The concepts of “freedom” and “civil disobedience” may make no sense in a Chinese context.”

Unless you believe that the mind of Chinese people functions totally differenty than the minds of western people, then it is the above assertion that makes no sense.

Sep 11, 2005 - 1:12 pm 15. leejudt:

>

Peter, cancelling the memorial day is preferable to degrading as they are threatening to do.

Sep 11, 2005 - 1:53 pm 16. ahem:

Yahoo’s actions are indefensible.

Sep 11, 2005 - 1:54 pm 17. Demosophist:

Has anyone done a review of Google’s new entry into the cable/sat TV market: Current TV? My impression is that in a very subtle way it’s even further to the left that the CBC which it replaced. But it’s very “cool” and very subtle. The hosts are chatty and urbane, and, well… young. They present as unbiased and open, but although I’ve seen nome pro-Canadian shows the presentation of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes takes the form of a “travelogue” that refuses to present anything that would anger a public official in those repressive states. All food recipes and clothing.

I think we’re in a real war, and I don’t think we necessarily have the advantage just because of our military.

Sep 11, 2005 - 2:04 pm 18. madawaskan:

The Chinese-militarily?

Read this -

“Interview with Lieutenant General Liu Yazhou of the Air Force of the People’s Liberation Army”

SDI or BMD-

Whatever the heck we are calling it-

ASAP-for the Japanese-this article everytime I read it makes me scared out of my mind not only for the Tiawanese but the Japanese.

Sep 11, 2005 - 2:23 pm 19. madawaskan:

Witchita Boy-

Followed that link-one word answer-

India

Global-tech power with its own problems with Muslim extremists, large population and suspicions of China-

Build bridges diplomatically and economically to India-{dont’be rude to the call center folks when they call during dinner-joking-but not really…}

China?

Checkmate.

But the answer is India.

Sep 11, 2005 - 2:31 pm 20. Rick Ballard:

photoncourier,

I believe that the concept of freedom, as understood in the West, is not inherent at all. In fact, I’d venture to say that it is an absolute cultural artifact because it has no ‘natural’ attributes. Nature offers very few rewards for individuals of any species which exhibit independence in a manner that humans would equate to ‘freedom’.

Taking the serf’s collar in exchange for a promise of ’security’ is much more natural than declaiming “Give me liberty or give me death” and meaning it.

It ain’t cuz they’re Chinese – it’s cuz they’re human.

Sep 11, 2005 - 3:59 pm 21. Duke:

Yahoo is not a German company circa 1940, it is a multi-national corporation circa right now. Corporations only exist on paper and in the minds of stockholders. All multi-nationals kiss the ass of the worst dictator so they can do more business and make more money. Solution: sell their stock if you own it, don’t do business with them on any level, and don’t buy from their advertisers. Yahoo has been selling out for years so this shouldn’t surprise anyone.

Sep 11, 2005 - 5:21 pm 22. Acksiom:

Er, Rick. . .we humans are indeed part of “nature”, but we’re pretty unique in our degree and kind of mentation — to the point where it’s a defining characteristic of “human”. So your belief as presented is logically inconsistent, because taking the serf’s collar in exchange for a promise of protection is fundamentally every bit as “unnatural” as declaring “Give me liberty or give me death” and meaning it is.

To say nothing of how human beings, as a rule, create and raise children. I seriously doubt that there is a successful culture on this planet wherein the process of childrearing does not instill, in both the young AND the mature, a tremendous desire, at least occasionally, for the independence for which you say nature does not offer rewards.

And it’s really not far at all from there to the concept of freedom as understood in the west.

Sep 11, 2005 - 6:06 pm 23. Rick Ballard:

Acksiom,

“inherent” was the key word. And exchanging freedom for security is always closer to a natural reaction. Nature’s reward for risk takers is rather minimal. I’m not red hot about evolutionary epistemology but natural selection appears to work against the individual exercising freedom.

Your second paragragh describes inculcation and is reasonably correct although the occasional desire for independence is not normative except during the adolescent phase. If you said “all cultures tolerate what appears to be a desire for independence by adolescents” I would tend to agree.

Photoncourier was advancing an argument that I interpreted to relate to a statement of inherent difference. I disagree with the inherent aspect but I agree completely with WB’s proposition that Chinese culture does not recognize the concept of freedom as Western culture (specifically, Western culture filtered through English common law) defines it.

Sep 11, 2005 - 7:50 pm 24. madawaskan:

If we are diving into the argument that only Western Civilization bore the idea of freedom- then you can come close to the argument that societies other then ours deserve what they get and prefer strong leadership-dictatorships.

This argument was used in the 80’s to explain that Russia could never experience freedom or its Eastern European satellites…

Also in the study of cultural anthropology there are tribes never exposed to Greek or Western Civilization’s philosophers that have developed surprisingly egalitarian societies or societies where actually the women dominate trade, etc. Central Africa being one example see the works of the cultural anthropologists-Turnbull and Turnbull.

I think President Bush and his administration make a wise observation when they say that any culture is capable of Democracy that it is not some special purvey of only Westernized cultures. A society that doesn’t surpress nearly half of its population-women-is a civilization that more likely can live peacefully with its neighbors.

All of which puts China in a strange quandary when you consider Tianemann Square and juxtapose that to China’s oppression and simultaneous devaluation of women-

China’s One Child Policy.

Sep 11, 2005 - 9:23 pm 25. Jim Rockford:

Witchatahboy –

It’s my personal observation from my time in China that really almost none of the foreign investors currently make money, they are all betting on the come that large market presence once China “normalizes” will give them access to one billion or so affluent consumers. I think this is merely extended tulip mania.

China is basically four or five countries, divided by a common set of languages, and great wealth disparities. In addition they have not solved the problem with the State Owned Enterprises which comprise the social safety net and can’t operate very well compared to true capitalist entities thus requiring massive subsidies. China is plagued with Muslim Separatists (and Al Qaeda) in Xianxing Province, the usual provincialism found in the South; and grinding poverty away from the Coastal Zone. Foreign partners soon find their proprietary information/products/etc stolen or couterfeited. There is no rule of law in China merely hyper-cronyism.

Lee Kwan Yew is correct that China produces lots of really talented technical people, but so did Joe Stalin. Soviet Aerospace engineers in the 1930’s drew up plans for a space shuttle, jet fighters, moon rockets and more. Amazing stuff. But Stalin was afraid of flying and hated and feared the designers, sent them to the gulag where some of the most talented died. He believed abject fear was the best motivation and so Soviet designers played it “safe.” While Stalin is an extreme, EVERY system where decisions are centralized at the very top prevents innovation from happening despite human resources and talent.

Look at Japan. After the War with (literally) the old power structure blasted away innovative companies centered around extremely personal visions of one man (Honda, Toyota, Sony) came to dominate their marketplaces through excellence of product. A centralized system could not produce an Apple Computer, or Microsoft, or Linux.

I don’t think we should be pollyanish about China, or sanguine about the ability to avoid long-term conflicts with them without massive conventional power advantages, but there is no need to panic either. I recall all the “Rise of Japan” articles the Clintonites put out in the early nineties which were so much garbage. Ignoring Japan’s really hard constraints on growth and innovation as domestic considerations strangled growth.

The Chinese are more like a flexible version of the Egyptian, Babylonian, and Persian Empires that were doing the same thing as the Qin centuries before. While the Greeks were building middle class societies (for a while). The one thing Western Societies have done is adapt to rapid social, technological, and cultural change. The advantages of THAT cultural attribute are of course obvious.

Sep 11, 2005 - 9:29 pm 26. PJ:

Incredible! And now Yahoo has hired Kevin Sites, the anti-US propagandist, to report on wars around the world. (see lgf).

I can’t figure out the left. Not one whit of support for women, for democracy, in other parts of the world, but plenty for terrorists and totalitarian governments. Are they insane?

Sep 12, 2005 - 8:51 am 27. Sirc_Valence:

Yes, PJ, they are.

“Liberalism” is mass insanity in a political form.

Sep 12, 2005 - 10:27 am 28. JPJ:

How many of the people condemning Yahoo have purchased something made in China recently?

How many do you think knew it was made in China and purchased it after the Yahoo story anyway because it was cheaper?

Now, tell me exactly WHO is supporting a totalitarian government?

Sep 12, 2005 - 12:11 pm 29. Canucklehead:

Here is an interesting assessment about China by Brian McAdam on September 7, 2005, at

Public Forum: Focus on China,

University of Ottawa,

Co-hosted by the Hon. David Kilgour and China Insight

China ÔøΩ Deception, Delusions and Denial

Sep 12, 2005 - 2:08 pm 30. thibaud:

It’s my personal observation from my time in China that really almost none of the foreign investors currently make money…. China is basically four or five countries, divided by a common set of languages, and great wealth disparities…. There is no rule of law in China merely hyper-cronyism.

What Jim Rockford said. Free beer to the man or woman who can show me a western company that has made returns on its Chinese investments anywhere close to the 20% or so hurdle rate that such risky investment would require.

Keep in mind, folks, that our current fascination with China is stoked by breathless reports from the same media nitwits and pseudo-pundits that bring you daily reminders of America’s demise, of the news that Bush is killing hurricane victims, etc.

So what is the factual basis for these breathless reports? Published economic growth data for China. How reliable are these data? About as reliable as your average Asian bank’s balance sheet– ie, not terribly. China may well be growing at 9% per annum, but we don’t know that. OTOH, we know for certain that: Chinese regions have nearly gone to war with each other recently; that China’s frequent experience of labor violence, coupled with its extraordinary corruption and mismanagement of mines and other industrial workplaces, suggests a powder keg that the regime may not be able to suppress indefinitely; and that shaky balance statements render China, like most other asian countries, vulnerable to spectacular to bank failures brought on by bad lending, such as that which caused the Asian Contagion of 1997-98.

As far as China’s real growth and the real strength of its economy are concerned, we’re guessing, and the notoriously opaque tradition of asian financial reporting, along with the massive and endemic corruption involved any activity related to the Chinese government– including, notably, economic statistics– should caution us from drinking the KoolAid.

Especially when the KoolAid is merely the latest libation offered by the anything to bash Bush crowd. It would be interesting to plot a graph showing the incidence over the last five years of gushingly pro-China coverage in the mainstream press here and in western Europe. I suspect that it began to rise sharply about a year after the Iraq War and then skyrocketed a few months after Bush’s election.

As with Hollywood TV writers for political soap operas like the West Wing, scripting the desired result– China as the last best hope of mankind in its struggle with the Chimp– is the Bush-hater’s revenge. Please keep in mind that any economic reporting that relies heavily on published official Chinese economic data is as likely to be as full of wishful thinking as anything dreamed up in a Hollywood studio.

Bottom line: yes, yes, this is indeed the Century of the Asian Powers. But China and India, like Russia and Brazil, are anarchic, hugely corrupt, desperately poor, politically screwed-up nations that are never as strong or as weak as people think. Leave off the Kool-Aid, folks. It’ll be a very long time before these growing but deeply screwed-up nations challenge us seriously in the world arena.

Sep 12, 2005 - 2:58 pm 31. thibaud:

How many Katrina-like spectacular governmental screwups causing scores of people to die occur each month> in China? How many industrial accidents that kill hundreds? How many floods, riots, building or bridge collapses, etc?

Sep 12, 2005 - 3:01 pm 32. thibaud:

sorry, end bold

Sep 12, 2005 - 3:02 pm 33. Ron Wrght:

Roger and all,

I’ve been meaning to comment on MS and Yahoo caving to the demands of repressive tyrannical regimes.

Yes, these are multinational companies but they are HQ’d in the US. Yes, they do make a profit for their stockholders.

But ponder this for a moment. The United States backed up by its military, projects a level economic playing field in which these companies can operate and make a profit. Who do you suppose pays for this?

The American taxpayers! Perhaps we should start a campaign to inform the American taxpayers of these companies who aid and abet these tyrannical regimes.

With this in mind see this comment I posted earlier today regarding an excellent article in the LA Times of all places!

*****

LA TIMES – How to Win the War of the Minds [Ed Note: My caption]

Uncharacteristic of the LA Times, the front page Column One articles have been prescient recently. Recall last week that the LA Times ran an excellent story on how the Blogos played an important role in the Katrina rescue response when local governmental efforts broke down.

BLOGOS BRINGS ORDER TO NOLA RESCUE OPS

RLS Link

Today’s column is no different. I’ve written before on this meme.

Blessed be for the Internet and the Blogos!

Information can now flow freely, unimpaired, blocked, or filtered by editorial boardrooms and tyrannical repressive regimes. The War On Terror AKA Islamofascisim is really a war of competing ideologies. This is a war of ideas, cultures, and religions.

Islamofascism is no different than other failed ideologies of Communism, Nazism, Fascism and similar ones. They do not recognize the universal truth of the free will of men and women. This radicalism is a cult no different then David Koresh and the Branch Davidians (Waco – A disavowed sect of the SDAs) (Waco) and Jim Jones and his Cool-Aid bunch that we are all familiar.

The only difference is this ideology of hate and evil is now funded by petrol dollars worldwide by the House of Saud in a deal with the Wahhabi Sect of Islam of which they are a part. Certain pathological practices, e.g. the abhorrent treatment of women, have no place in the modern world, and predate the religion of Islam. These stem from the culture of Bedouin tribes that roamed the Arabian peninsula. These practices were later incorporated into their own brand of Islam.

These regimes will fail. Once the truth breaks through, the power of “The Big Lie,,” loses it power to control. Once alternative sources of information are available that are a better predictor of the future, the lies of these tyrannical regimes become apparent for all to see. All their woes no longer can be blamed on the scapegoats of the “Big Satan”and the “Little Satan.”

In short this is a War of Information and we should not allow the enemy free run of CyberSpace.

Ron

*****

COLUMN ONE

Arabs Take Byte at Regimes

Activists of all hues are using the Internet to get around restrictions in a battle of wits against authorities bent on silencing cyber-critics.

By Megan K. Stack, Times Staff Writer

DAMASCUS, Syria In the world of Syrian bloggers, one computer key is essential.

Backspace.

[...]

Arab governments appear determined to censor cyber-critics and silence unwelcome online voices. They’ve jailed bloggers, blocked websites and asked Internet cafe owners to spy on their customers.

But it’s not working.

Online forums have been embraced by Islamists and the Arab world’s underground gay communities alike. The Internet has turned into a virtual debate hall crammed with lengthy screeds, cutting language and calls for rebellion. A colorful repository for the angst of the bulging Arab youth population, the Web is impolite, anonymous and raw ? in short, a revelation.

[...]

Read More

LA Times Link

Sep 12, 2005 - 8:34 pm 34. Ron Wrght:

Spontaneous order

Hey, NEWS cnet.com is muscling in on my thoughts re gov’t response re Katrina :–):

Net beats US govt in hurricane response

By Declan McCullagh, CNET News.com

Wednesday, September 07 2005 11:27 AM

[...]

Spontaneous order

All of these efforts have something in common: They were quick, voluntarily organized and reasonably effective. That is, sadly, almost exactly the opposite of the government efforts that were slow, disorganized and ineffective–or at least seemed to be until political pressure mounted and National Guard troops finally entered the waterlogged city in force on Friday.

[...]

The point is not to slam President Bush. (Others, including the New York Times’ editorial page will devote years to lambasting his administration.)

Rather, it’s to recognize the inefficiency of top-down systems such as the federal government compared with the rapid, efficient and effective organizing that individuals can accomplish on their own.

This is what the late Austrian economist F.A. Hayek called “spontaneous order,” referring to the marvel that happens every day when people work together and agree on transactions, voluntarily, without a central authority dictating what happens.

Read More

Cnet Link

Sep 14, 2005 - 4:35 pm 35. Ron Wrght:

Just cross posted this to another discussion topic above re MSM and coverage on Katrina:

RLS Link

*****

Here’s a great example of

Spontaneous order

Perspective from a set of on-the-ground “eyeballs” from Mississippi. This is a fresh perspective that is lacking in most MSM coverage that has centered on New Orleans.

Also a source advised a lower FEMA official was interviewed on NPR this morning. Seems as though ops center recognized the potential for disaster several days in advance of Katrina’s landfall. Emails were sent up but orders never came.

While a good percentage of the blame should rest on local and state response in Louisana, FEMA could have reacted faster. This is an organizational informational flow defect that needs a feedback loop to carry this info to the top policy/decision makers without getting “stove piped” or blocked below.

Just found the NPR link:

NPR Link

*****

Subject: FW: Welcome to Mississippi

Mark Flemmings works for Modern

Communications in Cleveland, Ms and is

working down on the coast in the recovery.

This is the story from his

eyes. (a little long but well worth the

read)

Makes you appreciate what you have!

WELCOME TO MISSISSIPPI

O.K. I’ll make an attempt to tell what’s

going on down here right now.

It’s hard to do for several reasons. First,

because there is so

much, it’s hard to talk about. Let’s try to

focus on the positive.

HSPIG Link

Sep 16, 2005 - 1:08 pm

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