53 Comments

1. jedrury:

Roger:

There is a tendency in expressing oneself to superimpose one’s beliefs to seemingly interpret events occurring far away – as in France now – as if those events must fit or else – within one’s political views.

The sad, violent events in Le Belle France are so fluid, dynamic and opaque, and, since we are not there in Seine Saint Denis and elsewhere, speaking with the miscreants or the police, that some commentary and its certainty of opinion/analysis rings false, being the absurdity of the polemic.

Roger, you are not that type, it is one of the reasons that why this site is so vigorous and open in debate.

Nov 6, 2005 - 5:18 pm 2. binkley:

Funny, the Guardian will mention that some of the youths were “black African youths” but cannot bring themselves to mention that most of the youths were Muslims.

Nov 6, 2005 - 5:26 pm 3. kpom:

It would be a good time to have some really wet and cold weather in France.

It is interesting how much this resembles the first intifada against the Israelis – carefully keeping the threshold of violence below the level where the use of lethal force would seem appropriate by the cops (and using teenagers to commit the violence), and then carefully calibrating the level of violence upwards – firing shotguns at the police at a range unlikely to kill anyone, for example. The prospect, of course, is that at some point the police overreact (or are perceived as overreacting).

You would always expect the state to claim that the rioters have central direction, so I would take such claims with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, the way the the riots have spread and the similarity of tactics across France does make one wonder.

One can envision a number of outcomes – but I think the one most harmful for the long-term interests of France is to drive Sarkozy out of office, and then have the riots cease. This would indicate that groups abetting the riots would now have a veto over French political decisions – likely leading eventually either to complete appeasement or a fascist government.

Nov 6, 2005 - 5:31 pm 4. kpom:

Follow up: chance of rain today in Paris, with no rain forecast for the rest of the week. 50’s during the day, mid-40’s at night.

Not good.

Nov 6, 2005 - 5:40 pm 5. David Thomson:

Nov 6, 2005 - 5:49 pm 6. Steven E. Ehrbar:

A strictly-enforced nighttime curfew in the first five or six nights in the at-that-point limited geographic area of concern could have snuffed this thing out — at, certainly, a measured risk of provoking violence among persons resisting arrest for curfew violations.

Instead, the situation was allowed to grow too large to be easily controlled and degenerate to the point that it has become violent, with only Dame Luck preventing actual deaths in several cases. Cops who know their buddies have been hospitalized by gunshot wounds are going to be quicker on the trigger at the very least; the situation is clearly not stabilizing.

Nov 6, 2005 - 5:51 pm 7. David Thomson:

Nov 6, 2005 - 6:00 pm 8. chuck:

David,

I think it might be time for you to pipe down a bit. We know where you stand. Constant repetition isn’t goint to make your argument any stronger.

Nov 6, 2005 - 6:07 pm 9. kpom:

David Thompson:

>the French economy is utterly incapable of offering serious job >prospects to its underclass youths

As the French economy is currently structured, that is true. However, if things get bad enough, there might be movement towards the dread “Anglo-Saxon economic model” – for example, making it possible to lay workers off so companies are willing to run the risk of creating the jobs in the first place. There is nothing inherent in the French economy that makes it impossible to utilitize young people.

Of course, that would mean that the French government would have to have employment concerns beyond ensuring that Electricitie de France workers get to keep their iron rice bowl (and their vacations, and their large pensions) – whether that is possible without a revolution remains to be seen.

Nov 6, 2005 - 6:15 pm 10. Terrye:

The authorities should have jumped on this day one.

Now it has taken on a life of its own.

I doubt if anyone knows what it is about anymore.

Nov 6, 2005 - 6:19 pm 11. Huan:

most of the comments i have seen have lambasted France. only a small minority of posts have been against muslim or even islam.

Nov 6, 2005 - 6:26 pm 12. Michael_B:

We have to remember that if this were a bunch of Pennsylvania Dutch Amish immigrants in France the exact same thing would be occurring. Well, there would be some differences. They’d be turning over their buggies in the streets instead of lighting fires in automobiles. Also, instead of setting wheelchair bound invalids ablaze, the disaffected Amish immigrants would – perhaps – be contemplating whether they should indulge in an impatient scowl or even an angry look or two directed at the local constabularies – after politely asking if such behavior would not be wrongly construed of course. It’s all about the socio-economic conditions. Would we be talking about Amish hooligans and Amish rioters now? No people, it’s jobs, they just need some good jobs and some patience and understanding. All cultures have equal value. Excepting American culture in fly-over country. Obviously.

Nov 6, 2005 - 6:47 pm 13. thibaud:

Roger,

My comments on Pajamas Media were not directed at your posts or you but at the 90% of the content on your site that comes from others. I’m guessing but I think it’s not exaggerating to say that close to half the posts assigned a primary role to Islamism or else warned of impending doom or both.

This raises a crucial question: does Pajamas Media content comprise only the bloggers’ blog entries, or does it also reflect the comments made on those blogs, ie the larger Pajamas “community”?

I’ve always assumed that the emphasis on community features and on “blogosphere” as opposed to bloggers implies the latter– call it the “Pajamasphere.”

If however Pajamas refers only to what you write at the very top of each thread, then your comments above are absolutely correct, and you have my apologies.

If the latter, then my critique of the Pajama-sphere stands as posted previously.

Nov 6, 2005 - 7:13 pm 14. thibaud:

Another reason to suppose that the concept of Pajamas Media includes the comments is that PJM’s content-based advertisers are likely to ascribe as much attention to the content contained in the comments as to the content in the bloggers’ entries at the top of each thread.

Which means that the commentary is no less central to the blog than the bloggers’ entries.

Nov 6, 2005 - 7:39 pm 15. David Thomson:

Nov 6, 2005 - 7:52 pm 16. Rick Ballard:

David,

Hegelian historicism has always promised heaven and delivered hell – why should it be any different in France?

Nov 6, 2005 - 7:58 pm 17. ras:

thibaud,

Just because we disagree with you – and heck, a lot of the people you complain about aren’t even so much disagreeing as merely contemplating alternate possibilities – does not give you the right to insult and denigrate, which you have been doing.

You start a shouting match, then act offended when a portion of the original vitriol comes back to you. If you disagree with that assessment, pls re-read the previous threads.

You have stated that you think the causes of this intifada are socio-economic. Fair enough. I lean to the religion/culture explanation, myself. But a n honest disagreement is not cause to belittle.

BTW, you also dislike my calling this event an “intifada,” but what would you call it? It’s clearly not a riot: riots are spontaneous, and don’t occur for ten days in a row on a schedule. No, it’s not a riot.

Intifada, IIRC, translates as “uprising.” Sure looks like an uprising to me, regardless of what triggered it. Perhaps you think it’s not?

Respectfully, what would you call it, and why?

Nov 6, 2005 - 7:59 pm 18. Rick Ballard:

Maybe it’s just the “Eid Break” – kind of like Ft. Lauderdale at Easter Break but with Molotov cocktails and sporadic gunfire.

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:03 pm 19. Stephen_M:

thibaudAdvert-bots will give equal weight to your posts and to the posts of David Thomson or anyone else.Human readers will vary wildly in assigning value to each.You really should be OK with all that. But I’m banking on your continuing to see it as unjust somehow.

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:11 pm 20. ras:

David,

I would not give up hope yet, albeit more and more I see Chirac as the well-bribed pawn of the ME, and his attempted undermining of Sarkozy – an undermining now spiralling out of control – is but one of many examples.

The Muslim gangs, and the Islamists who either lead them or at least try to jump in front of their parade – not sure how much of each yet – are playing their hand too soon. Strategically, they should now wait while more Gaulois emigrate away from the trouble, thereby weakening that side.

But there’s a derby on, or a tragedy of the intifada commons, if you wanna call it that. Those local leaders who back off will be seen as weak and will lose influence. Those who attack will gain. Only if *all* Muslim leaders back off simultaneously, and stay backed off, can the intifada be fully curbed. This includes any imported troublemakers in the pipeline.

I just don’t think there’s any one power that has that kinda control over all of them and can make a back-off happen. So this’ll all come to head sooner rather than later.

Sooner gives hope; later does not. How much hope is a matter of debate, of course.

BTW, I doubt that even a true laissez-faire economy could find jobs for all the Muslim immigrants now, at least not in the short or medium term. How many Gaulois employers, already distrustful of the muslims for viewing them as contemptible infidels, will wanna take one in after recent events?

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:14 pm 21. thibaud:

Ras,

Like anyone who dares go against the prevailing meme established on a thread here, or on nearly every political blog I’ve seen, for my clarity on the relative unimportance of Islamism in this matter I received a hailstorm of snarky, sarcastic replies. It started with these charming responses to my first, anodyne post on the subject:

Of course, the Islamist jihad against Jews & synagogues in France has been going on for 2 years

Posted by: beautifulatrocities at November 4, 2005 10:25 AM

Can we get over these tired old Vietnam-era canards? As even American leftist Michael Walzer pointed out post-9/11, jihad does not & cannot fit into liberal ideology, hence the tendency to resort to liberal sociology 101 & the almost comical MSM reports of restless youths

Posted by: beautifulatrocities at November 4, 2005 10:32 AM

It continued the next day in this vein:

Thibaud, Living somewhere does not mean you know anything about where you live. Especially when you choose to ignore that which makes you uncomfortable.

The rioters are punks, plain and simple. Immature brats encouraged by manipulative bastards with agendas of their own. And all occurring under a regime that panders to bigotry, chauvanism, and self-destructive animosity towards the different.

It’s pre-Nazi Germany all over again…. Unless I am very wrong it will get a lot worse. In 1944 a German General ignored orders to destroy Paris, I doubt the rioters will be so considerate.

Posted by: mythusmage at November 4, 2005 05:24 PM

And on and on:

Thibaud: Please tell my why it is only the Muslim poor who are rioting and not Black African Christians from the former French colonies who also poor? …What makes those who have all the Coca Cola and blue jeans they need become suicide bombers? You have no answer because you have no values.

Finally, in case you haven’t heard, Muslims attack Jews all the time. This about who controls the neighborhood Islam or the Government.

Posted by: jerry at November 4, 2005 09:40 PM

More inteligent, civil, well-reasoned discourse followed on other threads:

Thibaud has been infected with h.i.v., the human idiocy virus. which causes critical frontal lobe lesions impairing judgement and reason, and causing selective memory loss. Incurable.

Posted by: TomTom at November 4, 2005 10:16 PM

thibaud: “It’s pretty obvious that Sarkozy has made a major mistake in engaging in such crude and blunt name-calling.”

Yeah! It is not only right but a necessity that we all riot because some politician were insensitive. Lets all burn our neighborhoods in response, that will certainly show them our sensitivities.

Posted by: Huan at November 5, 2005 05:18 AM

And then Richard McEnroe added his usual snark with a convenient refusal to answer the explicit question I posed regarding whether speaking tough with a tiny stick is really better than speaking softly and brandishing a large stick:

Well, here in LA, [avoiding foolish swaggering talk] didn’t [help]… and yet the riots continued until the men with the machine guns were sent in. You’d think the rioters didn’t appreciate our nuanced, civilized restraint or something…

Posted by: richard mcenroe at November 5, 2005 10:13 AM

I could go on– it continued across several threads– but I think you get my point. There’s a rather nasty dynamic that takes over on every political blog-community, one that forces meekness and docility on those who dissent from the prevailing Truths while applauding snark and rudeness from old-time regulars. Eppur, si muovo

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:23 pm 22. Barry Dauphin:

“President Jacques Chirac on Sunday vowed to restore order in France after riots in Paris spread across the country and began to unnerve his European neighbors.”: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1286831

It seems as if there are more than simply economic issues if European neighbors are really begining to be “unnerved.” But that could be a reporter’s political opinions being injected into the story.

From Mark Styen-”They’re young men from North Africa growing ever more estranged from the broader community with each passing year and wedded ever more intensely to an assertive Muslim identity more implacable than anything you’re likely to find in the Middle East. After four somnolent years, it turns out finally that there really is an explosive ”Arab street,” but it’s in Clichy-sous-Bois.”: http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

Maybe Steyn is also going over the top? He sounds persuasive.

I am certainly interested in being educated about this and am willing to believe that economic policy and immigration policy in France has largely created the high levels of young male unemployment. But I also read about police not being able to go into certain neighborhoods where strict imans rule the roost. The French riots seem way beyond anything after a Detroit victory celebration (I live in the area). As for Katrina comparisons, well France didn’t have a hurricane that destroyed large swaths of the city and displaced hundreds of thousands of people. Similar looking riots can have different causes, and there is growing evidence that there are greater levels of organization here. It is looking less like a riot (something that is more spontaneous) and increasingly more organized.

I see Clive Davis’ post as expressing more of a wait and see position. Sure. But then he goes on to do some cherry picking of his own, dragging up the most extreme of responses to back up his point. In other words he is doing what he is asking others to refrain from doing. The riots will be contained in the near term, but there needs to be an honest accounting of this when the dust settles.

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:27 pm 23. ras:

thibaud,

You’re right. It’s no more your fault than the trouble in Paris is the fault of the youths. I stand corrected.

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:29 pm 24. Patrick Tyson:

On 29 May several hundred thousand protesters led by the CGT marched through Paris, chanting, “Adieu, de Gaulle!”

While the government appeared to be close to collapse, de Gaulle chose not to say adieu. Instead, after ensuring that he had sufficient loyal military units mobilized to back him if push came to shove, he went on the radio the following day (the national television service was on strike) to announce the dissolution of the National Assembly, with elections to follow on 23 June. He ordered workers to return to work, threatening to institute a state of emergency if they did not.

From that point the revolutionary feeling of the students and workers faded away. Workers gradually returned to work or were ousted from their plants by the police. The national student union called off street demonstrations. The government banned a number of left organizations. The police retook the Sorbonne on 16 June. De Gaulle triumphed in the elections held in June and the crisis had ended.

That being history, there is absolutely no reason to think that this “crisis” after the “end of history” is going anywhere meaningful or toward anything lasting.

Soyez realistes, demandez l’impossible.

As Mick and Joe observed during similiar times in England…

‘Cos it won’t get you anywhere

Fooling with your guns

The British Army is waiting out there

An’ it weighs fifteen hundred tons

White youth, black youth

Better find another solution

Why not phone up Robin Hood

And ask him for some wealth distribution

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:30 pm 25. thibaud:

Stephen_M,

Advert-bots will give equal weight to your posts and to the posts of David Thomson or anyone else. Human readers will vary wildly in assigning value to each.

You really should be OK with all that. But I’m banking on your continuing to see it as unjust somehow.

Here’s a civil, polite, presumably Ras-preferred response to this scintillating gibe:

“Why is that, Stephen?”

A more appropriate response would of course play upon the bot theme, note the weakness of the “banking on” conceit, etc. and then demolish the latent argument, if you can call it that, that France’s african population has not suffered severe racial discrimination.

How would you respond, Ras?

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:31 pm 26. ras:

Barry,

I was thinking about this earlier today in the context of, of all places, Malysia.

Malaysia, as you knmow, is a majority Muslim country. The Muslims are mostly Malay, and the others (Thai and Chinese) are not.

Yet the others dominate the local economy. Malays have enacted various discriminatory laws in their favor, and have never offered, or to my knowledge attempted to offer, a rationale for that based on past exploitation.

I highly doubt that Malays are simply inferior, so why are they so terrible at winning with their economy? Is it that Islam itself is not compatible with a modern economy, that a religion emphasizing a kind of chauvinism (to put it mildly) to others is not conducive to good business?

The arg as to whether Islam or economics ignited Paris’ problems may be six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Also, I note that Malaysia both practices what Arabs would consider a watered-down version of Islam and has a better economy than the Arab states do. This would seem to further buttress the correlation between Islam and poor economies.

[and I'm not even beginning to address other structural factors such as the Islamic prohibition on charging interest, which'd limit the housing market, to take but one example, to all-cash txns]

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:38 pm 27. ras:

thibaud,

I think it’s Roger’s site and he can run it any damn way he wants. I’m pretty libertarian and his property is his to do with as he pleases.

Frankly, I think he cares about what he does and loves a good discussion. And he’s old enough to know the money will follow.

Like, whaddya want him to do? Censor? If so, let’s hold our breath till he does; you first

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:42 pm 28. jerry:

Thibaud keeps asserting it

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:46 pm 29. Ray:

MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING MUCH

This is not an intifada. The “insurgents” are merely unhappy young people that are frustrated with not having jobs or respect. Their parents are not supporting their actions and are trying to stop it. This is similar to the student riots of a few years ago.

A fatwa has been issued telling the young rioters that they are not permitted to destroy private property.

They have no weapons other than a few hunting shotguns which will kill no one (unless they are very close). A few police may get a few pellets in their rears. This is not the stuff of serious insurgencies.

This whole schemer will burn out (pardon the pun) in a few days with everyone claiming victory.

The real victors are the rioters, as they have frightened the French enormously. If the riots stop soon, the government will pour benefits on them (while harshly sentencing those that have been apprehended).

To you bloggers that have hoped the French will have a “comeuppance”, be assured that one is coming. It will be severe economic strife due to the enormous social debt (unfunded, similar to Ford and GM).

Enjoy!

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:49 pm 30. ambisinistral:

From this article, “As the government flounders, seemingly powerless to stem the bombardments of petrol bombs and stones, a snapshot of French opinion offers striking confirmation of just how divided the country is. Even as Paris burns, a new poll for the daily Le Parisien has found that while two thirds of the French feel that ‘Sarko’ has a tendency to be too outspoken, a clear majority – 57 per cent – retains a positive view of him.”

At least up until now, Sarkozy’s approach has been more popular than that of Chirac and de Villepin. I think they believe they have to stall and hope for a dent in his popularity. If that doesn’t happen, cracking down will strengthen him politically. I suspect yhey’re playing chcken for domestic political reasons. We’ll see who blinks first.

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:50 pm 31. thibaud:

Ras,

Intifada, IIRC, translates as “uprising.” Sure looks like an uprising to me, regardless of what triggered it. Perhaps you think it’s not?

Respectfully, what would you call it, and why?

No, it has almost nothing in common with the Palestinian uprising against Israel in the occupied territories following the collapse of the Oslo talks (the “intifada”). These are riots, period.

The Israelis and Palestinians disagree as to whether the intifada was planned, but it seems obvious to most impartial observers that, planned or not, it was very quickly exploited by Arafat and accelerated as part of a conscious strategy of violence against the Sharon government. Emphasis on government: attacking soldiers and policemen.

The French riots are completely spontaneous and have no leadership at all. “Anarchic” is a fair description. On top of which, though cops have been attacked, over 99% of the incidents involve burning neighbors’ cars. If the 12 and 14 year- olds torching these cars have a political aim, it’s very cunningly concealed. Especially so now that the original triggering event seems to have faded from view. The only quote I’ve seen to indicate any grievance against the government is that “Sarkozy dissed us.” Not exactly “Peace Bread and Land” or “All Power to the Soviet” now, is it?

Note also the rlationship between the kids doing the rioting and the leadership and elders of the african community. The kids have been condemned by French imams as well as by the rioters’ own hapless parents, who are now reported to be planning their own march against the rioters, which tells you just how completely anarchic these acts are. As one parent quoted in the Telegraph lamented about his 14 year-old rioting child, “He pulled a knife on me the other day.”

Other aspects of these riots which render absurd comparisons with a coordinated political uprising absurd are: the joy ride aspect, of kids torching cars for the hell of it, also playing cat and mouse with cops; and the copycat aspect, clearly on display in the last couple of days.

respectfully,

thibaud

Nov 6, 2005 - 8:55 pm 32. chuck:

ras,

I would not give up hope yet, albeit more and more I see Chirac as the well-bribed pawn of the ME

I think Chiraq see it the other way around. He and Villepin are now suffering terrible pangs as they watch France’s grand strategy of pairing up with the Arab regimes against US hegemony floating away in the flames. Somewhere in the White House I hope that someone is checking off yet another name.

thibaud,

French racism no longer interests me. I am interested in what is to come. You have pooh poohed events and passed the rioting off as a trifle of no import. I think you are wrong. Indeed, I think I see you receding in the rear view mirror. The impression of your mighty intellect fades slowly in the twilight. Au revoir.

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:00 pm 33. Ray:

Chuck,

Your comment about Chirac making a mistake siding with the Arab regimes against U.S. hedgemony is well founded. Every day the riots persist causes a greater undermining of Chirac’s position.

Sarkosy’s chances in the next election have improved dramatically.

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:18 pm 34. thibaud:

Chuck, inkeeping with the Ras Rules of Civility I’ll avoid the temptation to respond to your insults and ask you

1) to indicate where I said that the rioting is “a trifle of no import”?

2) what evidence you have that the rioting has, or will– you don’t make it clear how you know this– transform itself itself into an intifada?

3) why, exactly, are you so eager to see my thesis proved wrong?

As to 1), I believe the riots are very significant for domestic French politics, especially as they relate to tax, labor laws, education and housing. They will have little effect on immigration policy or judicial procedures because, as I’ve pointed out, France already is extremely tough on terrorist suspects– far tougher than any other advanced western democracy, including our own– and France also has, in contrast to Britain, very strict immigration laws.

As to 2), the evidence we have is just the opposite of the intifada thesis. Imams and parents have condemned the kids’ joy torchings, and what we’re now seeing is not a change of targets– from cars to, say, more strategic targets– but simply the same targets in different towns. In other words, copy-cattism by other kids.

As to 3), I’ve already stated my belief that the anti-islamist blogosphere is viewing these events with the same giddy anticipation that the anti-Bush New York-based media viewed Katrina. A chance to impose the Grand Meme, even when it doesn’t fit. But that might not explain your motivation, Chuck. Why are you so eager to see the fell hand of Islamism behind every 12 year-old torching his neighbor’s car?

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:20 pm 35. ras:

Chuck,

Thoughtful comment (seriously!).

He and Villepin are now suffering terrible pangs as they watch France’s grand strategy of pairing up with the Arab regimes against US hegemony floating away in the flames.

True, but if Chirac were solely thinking “Mon Dieu, my strategie of alliance wit zee Arabs has failed; I must recover!” then he wouldda sent in the troops to the Paris suburbs already.

But I’ll split you the diff, cuz there’s a lotta sense in what you say: maybe he’s trying to play it both ways – to appease his ME allies/enemies and screw em at the same time!

Chirac himself prob doesn’t know how he plans to end it yet. One big amoral game.

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:23 pm 36. Barry Dauphin:

From Amir Taheri: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nypost/20051104/cm_nypost/whyparisisburning;_ylt=A86.I1XRaWtD_6UAEQf9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA–

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:39 pm 37. kpom:

Thibaud:

>No, it has almost nothing in common with the Palestinian uprising against Israel in the occupied territories following the collapse of the Oslo talks (the “intifada”). These are riots, period.

>The Israelis and Palestinians disagree as to whether the intifada was planned, but it seems obvious to most impartial observers that, planned or not, it was very quickly exploited by Arafat and accelerated as part of a conscious strategy of violence against the Sharon government. Emphasis on government: attacking soldiers and policemen.

>The French riots are completely spontaneous and have no >leadership at all.

I’m not sure if the political goals of the first Palestinian intifada were evident two weeks after it started spontaneously (this was pre-Oslo and pre-Sharon, BTW – the second intifada was post-Oslo).

I don’t think we know yet if there is a coherent leadership behind this, but there does seem to be a coherent set of political demands expressed by the participants, to wit:

1) Removal of Sarkozy

2) Abandonment of the attempt to reassert French government control over the banlieus (closely related to reason #1)

And, increasingly, the participants **do** seem to be targeting the cops…

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:49 pm 38. chuck:

Why are you so eager to see the fell hand of Islamism behind every 12 year-old torching his neighbor’s car?

Sorry, thibaud, I have never said any such thing nor expressed any such an eagerness. You may paint me with such slanders and continue to converse with yourself, but in my eyes you have simply lost relevance.

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:51 pm 39. thibaud:

Abandonment of the attempt to reassert French government control over the banlieus (closely related to reason #1)

Huh? Banlieue means “suburb.” Of course there is and always will be “government control” of these administrative regions. The big problem, as everyone will attest, is the complete absence of police in many of the suburban cites, or high rise housing projects.

Nov 6, 2005 - 9:57 pm 40. beautifulatrocities:

Every blog needs a Thibaud. From Financial Times this evening:

Mr Sarkozy’s popularity appears relatively unscathed. According to an opinion poll at the weekend for Le Parisien newspaper, 57 per cent of people had a positive image of him.

Nov 6, 2005 - 10:06 pm 41. David Thomson:

Nov 6, 2005 - 10:15 pm 42. larwyn:

“The

Nov 6, 2005 - 10:38 pm 43. thibaud:

Before anyone goes further with the Islamist claim, I’d really like to see a breakout of the number of rioters who are a) north African maghrebins; b) sub-Saharan africans whose parents or grandparents came from places like Senegal, Mali, Cote d’Ivoire; and c) white kids (probably of Portuguese or Spanish or Italian descent).

If more than 80% were a), north africans, then I’d be much more likely to look for Islamists behind the violence. If this were the case, we would surely have seen scores of incidents of violence against jews and jewish targets by now. Instead, reports are of one torching of one synagogue.

I see no reason to believe that most of the rioters are not actually sub-Saharan africans for whom the Palestinians, the Iraq War, Islamism generally are far less important than their own French version of hip-hop culture.

If anyone has good evidence to the contrary, bring it forth.

Nov 6, 2005 - 10:46 pm 44. thibaud:

Poor Atrocities. Sarko’s done a beautiful job, hasn’t he? 11 days and counting, and his cops are even more clueless and feckless than they were when this started.

Atrocities seems to think this is some kind of a game in which we root for our favorite team to ride high in oipinion polls, when in fact my point re Sarkozy, repeated several times now, is that he was foolish to call the kids “thugs” because of the effect of such language– if not backed up by competent and overwhleming force– on the african community and in perpetuating this crisis.

Sarko may well have received an increase from racist elements on the left, the stalinists and trotskyites who voted for Le Pen but would never support an RPR politician. Perhaps popularity will rise as the crisis gets worse. Worked for Nixon. A real shame for France, though.

Nov 6, 2005 - 11:03 pm 45. Terrye:

thibaud:

You are starting to sound a tad ridiculous.

Now you are blaming Sarkozy? Is he telling these poor unfortunate misunderstood youths to go out and burn down Paris???

What is next? Are you going to say the Devil made them do it?

I have to say I am disappointed in you.

Nov 7, 2005 - 3:32 am 46. syn:

Thibald

You complain that everyone is holding a myopic view of the riots in France and Islamism but you always manage to blame Republicans for everything.

Further, simply because you present your side of the debate does not require anyone to accept your premises based on the idea that you feel entitled.

Nov 7, 2005 - 3:53 am 47. Robert Crawford:

Other aspects of these riots which render absurd comparisons with a coordinated political uprising absurd are: the joy ride aspect, of kids torching cars for the hell of it, also playing cat and mouse with cops; and the copycat aspect, clearly on display in the last couple of days.

In what way does that harm the idea of it being political motivated and coordinated? Your claim here — as it’s expressed — is that if anyone expresses any enjoyment in their violence, then there’s no one else behind it. I think that’s wrong; you can’t proclaim a connection between the two, or even claim the existence of one rules out the other.

Nov 7, 2005 - 4:26 am 48. thibaud:

Terrye – I’m not sure why you’re trying to twist my disdain for Sarkozy’s fecklessness into an argument that he’s “to blame” while the rioters bear no blame. I didn’t assign portions of blame, anyway; I simply said, again, that Sarko’s tough, crude talk, combined with the obvious display of weakness and less than competence of the police, is not resolving this crisis which has gone on for, what, 11 days now?

As you’re probably aware, France is heavily centralized and does not have a federal structure like ours, which means that primary responsibility for restoring order rests with the Interior Minister: Sarkozy. As I’ve said, Sarkozy’s tough talk + weak stick shtick has contributed to the perpetuation of a crisis that others started. That’s a worse combination than a weak stick without crude tough talk, or a big stick with crude tough talk.

Nov 7, 2005 - 5:10 am 49. thibaud:

Robert – fair point re fun. Perhaps the intifadists were having fun, too. There’s a fine movie by John Boorman called IIRC “Hope and Glory” about his boyhood reminiscences from WWII, and all the glorious fun he had running amok in Britain without parental supervision during the last years of the war.

However, given the rioters’ single-minded focus on torching their neighbors’ cars (also a few shops and schools, plus one synagogue)– many hundreds of cars torched every day– it seems obvious that this is far closer to joy riding than to any kind of political “uprising.”

France has seen sporadic orgies of this kind of urban violence from the projects for over two decades now. There have also been waves of attacks on French jews. These riots clearly are another example of the former. Though this time around, and at this stage, the kids seem to be having a lot of fun. Sort of like midnight basketball, only with gasoline.

Nov 7, 2005 - 5:19 am 50. jerry:

Regardless of how people come down on the causes what is certain that the general agreement is that these riots find their analog with the Palestinian Infitada. This analogy, although more familiar, is mistaken. This is more like the periodic violence the wracked Kosovo from the time of Tito’s death until the US intervened on the Muslim side in 1999. Through out this period Kosovar Albanian Muslims built a movement based on violence and the intimidation of Serbs and other non-Muslims until they had the capability of launching an armed insurrection. The Muslim Communities of France are about midway through this process. You are already hearing calls for “self government” from Muslim leaders and their collaborators.

Thibaud: You keep coming back to this Jew thing. This may come as surprise to you but North Africans really don’t give a damn about Palestinians or their cause. I don’t really think they carry any special hatred of Jews beyond their general hatred of the European other. So your statements to the effect it can’t be about Islam because they aren’t torching Synagogues are nonsensical. If Muslim conflicts are with the west are all about the Jews then explain these events over the past few week or so…

- Christian school girls are beheaded by Muslims in Indonesia…No Jews there.

- Muslim terrorists bomb and kill in Thailand…No Jews there.

- Muslims attack open air markets in India…No Jews there.

Islam is at war with all cultures not just the Jews and they really don

Nov 7, 2005 - 7:14 am 51. beautifulatrocities:

Thibaud’s grip on reality: just a couple of days ago he assured us that Sarkozy was finished. Actually, that big stink is Thibaud’s worldview going up in smoke. Guess those damn rightwing frogs just aren’t getting the message.

Just imagine if it were Le Pen’s shocktroops torching France & running amok! Would Thi-B be slamming Sarkozy for hurting their feelings? No, because sentimental libs have one standard for white rioters, & another for brown rioters. Because really, the brown ones can’t help themselves.

Nov 7, 2005 - 7:21 am 52. dougf:

Well I guess it’s Thibaud against the world. No-one really knows what is exactly happening in France(well apart from the usual dance of the effete that substitutes for backbone in the French elites), but everyone agrees that it is not good.

I am placed in the uncomfortable position of feeling like Rodney — Can’t we all get just get along .

I don’t see Thibaud as ‘defending’ Islamists, just saying that this particular situation is not really all about them. However frankly I am tired of ‘Muslim’ problems. We all have our ‘crosses’ or in their case ‘crescents’ to bear, and I can’t help but feel that there is a component of Islamic nutbarism involved in ANY violence perpetrated by a large group of Muslims.

Granted the French may not care overly for these ‘noirs’, indirectly imported from North Africa, but the very real self-exclusionary tendencies of Islamic behaviour can not be ignored. It takes two to tango and apparently some Muslims don’t tend to lead very well.

Many forms of Islam appear to me to be a problem. They may not be THE main problem in the current French ‘disorder’, but you can hardly blame many for jumping to what is at the least a relatively ‘logical’ conclusion,based upon empirical evidence from other world areas.

But can’t we try to remember who the enemies really are,and save the ‘insults’ for those who really deserve them? I really don’t think that they tend to post here. But I could be wrong.

Again.

Nov 7, 2005 - 7:48 am 53. thibaud:

Well I guess it’s Thibaud against the world

Only if you define your world as the absurd little echo chamber of the American know-nothing, Islam-obsessed blogosphere. Appreciate the gesture, doug, but it’s frankly a waste of time to point out to the ignorant here that

– France is far more repressive than we are toward its muslims,

– French judges have vastly more power than ours and use it severely,

– French racial discrimination is not only widespread, it’s standard behavior that goes unpunished

– the rioters are primarily black sub-saharan third-generation africans, not recent jihadist-inclined arrivals from the arab world…

… and on we go. Arguing these points here is like trying to discuss economics with the Kos Kidz.

Nov 7, 2005 - 4:05 pm

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: