34 Comments

1. jerry:

The link posted below should put an end to the idea that this is not about Islam and secular Europe. Secularists labor under the illusion that to believe in nothing except the plasticity of man is sufficient to produce the perfect society full of happy and contented citizens. However, history shows that you cannot build civil society based upon nihilism. Ultimately, the secularist doesn’t believe in nothing, he will believe in anything. Fascism, Nazism, Communism, Ecoism etc., are all the byproducts of secularism.

Secularists often like to equate Christians of any faithful stripe to Jihadis. However, Jihadis, and indeed all observant Muslims, practice a faith that is more compatible with the views of nihilistic secularism. Life is a meaningless exercise to both. However, the Jihadi believes that he can become something in death while the secularist ultimate becomes frustrated by the failure to produce a paradise so they eventually turn society into the same kind of totalitarian hell that is produced by radical Islam.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9000

Nov 9, 2005 - 11:36 am 2. Always right:

Fox & Friends this morning, Regis le Sommier, U.S. bureau chief for Paris Match, categorily denied that the rioting youths had any angle to any kind of religion. According to him: Just like US in the 70’s, it is all poverty and joblessness, stupid. (my words, not his)

Didn’t the French reject the real solution of economic freedom recently? They voted for more entitlement, not free-market model which creates wealth. The de Villepin Plan (not like JFKerry, we have yet to see any of Kerry’s plans) actually re-distributes the pot of entitlement to these “unfortunate youths” from your regular French men/women/children. How is this plan going to appease the regular folks, once this wave of violence dies down? Are we going to see more French farmers, truck drivers, etc. going to the streets to get their “fair share”? Where(How) is it going to end? How are the French going to prosecute the >600 arrests?

What would be a “correct” response for other society/governments to learn from?

Nov 9, 2005 - 1:02 pm 3. thedragonflies:

I’m not sure that war works, but I am pretty darned sure that appeasement doesn’t.

Would a less rigid, more upwardly mobile, market oriented economy and society help relieve some of the tensions and hatreds in France and the rest of Europe? Probably. We don’t have ghettos of Muslims in the U.S., and we are much less likely to have an explosion of ethnic violence of the kind that we are seeing in France.

But, is the heart of the problem economics and lack of opportunity? Of course not. The kids are tools, not instigators of this violence, it seems to me. They become the highly trained weapons of those trying to forcibly install their glorious caliphate.

What to do? Maybe a little of both – crack down hard and fast so as not to appease the bosses directing the destruction. And switch to an entrepeneurial, market driven rather than State driven economy.

Nov 9, 2005 - 1:42 pm 4. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

I’m sure there are multiple causes at work here, and it’s not necessary to select one as “most important.” But pretty clearly, one major factor is the very high long-term unemployment levels among these “youths.” It is not good for people to have everything given to them with nothing expected in return.

The “jobs” programs will help only if they are *real jobs.* This means real work with a real boss (not a “community activist” of some kind) and with the real possibility of being fired if you don’t do your job.

If it is done as a social program delivered via the intermediary of local activists and “community leaders” it will do more harm than good.

Nov 9, 2005 - 1:56 pm 5. jedrury:

Interesting viewpoint by Garfinckel.

In the States, we get a press filtered view on the front page and talk shows; not race and religion, but poverty and victimhood. The Times does not even identify the thugs as Muslims.

Le Pen chimes in that “the worst is coming. . see I told you so.” Le Pen should sit on the side lines as he is not be a viable candidate.

So how is this going to play out between De Villepin and Sarkozy. I think the French voter will back Sarkozy because they are truly outraged by this and they will be more so, by the steps De Villepin will have to take to pacify these “victims” of French society. He will not gain the trust of the average French voter by these placating measures.

Nov 9, 2005 - 2:15 pm 6. Pierre Legrand:

One unfortunate method of discrediting those of us who believe that Islam is behind the riots is to portray us as believing that Bin Laden is driving the riots and that Al Queda is below every Park Bench. That simply is not the case for me, though I don’t discount the possibility that he is helping where he can. Islam feels ascendant and history has shown that when it feels that way it usually does something about it. Its not a conspiracy its merely a religion with corrupt values acting in its own best interests. Its never wise to attack when you are weak and the enemy is strong. Now they perceive, I believe correctly, that we are weak. And I include France in we simply because they were stout friends in the secret war of intelligence agencies and brutal tactics required to win.

Islam believes that France can be taken. Any of us believe that craven bunch of spineless politicians in France can win? In the long run. In five years can any of us be certain that Islam will not control Force Frappe? How fun will that be?

Was Muhammad a Islamist or a Moderate? Please explain his actions against the Jews in your answer.

Pierre

Nov 9, 2005 - 2:26 pm 7. jerry:

thedragonflies:

We don’t have European style Ghettos but we have Muslim neighborhoods. Muslims are fairly prosperous here. But they are in UK as well. We have seen time and time again that AQ terrorists are not desparate poverty stricken youths. They are middle class and well educated. There is significant support for Jihadism in the US and through CAIR and the AMC they exercise a lot of clout. The Jihadis use the European poor just as they do on the West Bank. Throw some rocks, get some bleading heart press and then eventually send in the random suicide bombers. The real operations will be undertaken by the the successful not the failues.

Nov 9, 2005 - 3:05 pm 8. Coisty:

Could Los Angeles be next? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47284

jedrury – Le Pen chimes in that “the worst is coming. . see I told you so.” Le Pen should sit on the side lines as he is not be a viable candidate.

But if Le Pen was right maybe he will be viable in the future? Sarkozy has been as pathetic as de Villepan; running around talking tough and doing nothing – always disastrous – while promising all kinds of privileges like affirmative action to the ethnic communities.

Nov 9, 2005 - 3:31 pm 9. utron:

I’m going to respectfully dissent from jedrury’s prediction that Le Pen isn’t a viable candidate. He’s had a durable core of supporters for well over a decade, and in the last election his support was up around 20 percent, as I recall, without the added bonus of riots to underline his nativist message. Personally, the man is a thug, but the Penistes have begun putting up some more attractive, David Duke-style candidates.

I’ll predict that the Penistes will approach 30 percent in the next election, and that will be one of many ways in which things in France will get worse before they get better.

Nov 9, 2005 - 3:52 pm 10. thibaud:

The major issue here isn’t multiple causes, it’s the anti-Islamist crowd’s deliberate blurring of “Islamic” and “black,” as if the two are interchangeable. They are not.

The vast majority of the kids doing these torchings have no respect for imams and little or no interest in Islam. Surveys indicate that religious observance among these nominally muslim kids is no higher than for their overwhelmingly secular white peers (about 80% visit a house of worship five times or fewer per year).

Nov 9, 2005 - 4:07 pm 11. Pierre Legrand:

Actually whether they are black or not is besides the point. The French Authorities themselves acknowledge the fact that this is mainly being driven by Muslims by using Imams in an attempt to moderate the conflict.

Furthermore if the majority of the rioters were not muslim then why did those Imams feel the need to issue a FATWA condemning the riots? Who were they addressing with their FATWA secular frenchmen who just happen to enjoy torching a city?

Finally the FATWA was a study in exactly the sort of parsing of words we have come to expect from our “moderate” muslim brothers.

it is formally forbidden to any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone’s life. Contributing to such exactions is an illicit act.?

So I guess as long as the violence is not blind its ok? Or maybe the rioters are a lot more nuanced than I?

Pierre

Nov 9, 2005 - 4:20 pm 12. thedragonflies:

jerry,

I agree that lack of Muslim ghettos in the U.S. is no guarantee of safety from the fascist element of Islam. I am just noting that Europe has this extra problem of an adolescent, rebellious, destructive ghetto mentality amongst a concentrated and impoverished group of Muslims.

I think the spark that set off the riots might have been sponteneous rather than orchestrated, but that opened the door for the orchestration by the Islamofascist leaders in France.

We remain in danger of planned attacks for sure from educated and prosperous Islamofascists.

I think one of our major strategies in the war agaisnt the Islamofascists is to enroll the modernist Muslims in the cause of defeating the Islamofascists amongst them. Without their alliance I don’t see how we win this thing.

Nov 9, 2005 - 4:37 pm 13. ras:

If I understand de Villepin’s “root causes” theory … 20,000 minimum wage jobs will mollify an extra 3 million unemployed? Sigh, I always knew the French habit of using commas for decimal points would cause a mixup like this one day.

I do hope the US has already begun the process of buying France’s nukes; de Villepin desperately wants cash, and the rest of the world should just as desperately want to spirit the nukes to a safer locale, while they still can. Hire the scientists too.

Didn’t we see this movie before?

Nov 9, 2005 - 6:02 pm 14. jerry:

Dragon:

I want to empahsize again that the Muslims in the UK have the same opportunities for success as anyone else. In fact Hindus from the area emmigrated to the UK at the same time as many Asian Muslims. The Hindus moved up and out. Many Muslims did too but by and large they are less successful and more tied to traditional culture. Islamic culture is non-adaptive while the Chinese, Japanese and Hindu cultures are. Radical Islam finds a home in muslims households both rich and poor.

I meant to include in last post the fact that we often confuse Arab and Muslim. A majority of Arabs in the United States are Christian and most American Muslims are not Arabs. Since in most peoples minds Arab = Muslim we tend to think that our Muslim population is better assimliated then it really is. Most Arabs in the US left the middle east because their threated by Muslims. The current CENTCOM Commander, General Abizaid is of Arab-Christian decent.

Nov 9, 2005 - 6:23 pm 15. thibaud:

If these kids are Islamists, then France’s current, extremely tough policy against Islamism– including pre-emptive arrests, interrogation and detention without habeas corpus (Bruguiere has detained suspected terrorists for up to two years), deportations, also, a very restrictive immigration policy (1/3 as many non-EU immigrants admitted annually as Britain does)– has obviously failed, for reasons that Gurfinkiel doesn’t make clear.

We’re now into the second week of riots, and the ratio of mindless, anarchic acts of burning cars to anti-jewish violence is about 4,000 to 1. We know what French Islamist violence looks like, and this is not it. This is a race riot that has now morphed into an orgy of cop-baiting and car-torching. “Intifada”? Bullshit. It’s now basically an anarchic, rolling race riot mixed with the French beur and noir kids’ favorite pastime, Grand Torch Auto.

Nov 9, 2005 - 6:54 pm 16. jedrury:

Coisty and Utron:

Let me clarify my comment.

Le Pen was characterized by the press as modern day Europe’s incarnation of conservative evilness when he ran against Chirac last time. That was the reason Chirac garnered 80% of the vote and was returned to office. Next time, if he runs,

he will be pictured the same way, he will engage in the same racially divisive comments and he will not win. He would be a disaster for France and Europe. His comments are raw and unfiltered and may represent the feelings of a portion of the French populace; they are beyond the pale of proper modern day political debate.

France has an unfortunate way of returning the same old tired retread politicians to office decade after decade. It is time for new blood; Sarkozy and De Villipen are new faces from the same party. The rest of the Chirac crowd has

been silenced or marginalized due to corruption. Lionel Jospin, the former socialist prime minister, has retired from public life. I can not name his replacement but it appears that the Gaullist will win again post-Chirac, presuming that he does not run.

Nov 9, 2005 - 7:06 pm 17. jerry:

Thibaud:

You are getting rather tiresome with the Jew meme.

Radical Islam is not about the Jews. It’s a culture war with Islam attacking all religious groups. Why do you think a majority of Arabs in the US are Christians? They left their homelands because of Muslim hostility. Since Oslo the Christian community in Bethlehem has been reduced from 75% to less the 25%. Christians in Indonesia are under attack by Muslims and I don’t think there are any Jews there. There is a near Civil war between Muslims and Christians Nigeria. There are no Jews there. Sudan engaged in ehtnic cleansing in the Sudan. There are no Jews there. You are desperate to exonerate the role Islam in these disorders. The European problem with Islam is not about the Jews. it is about the demographic collapse of native populations and their replacement by a hostile non-western culture.

Nov 9, 2005 - 7:37 pm 18. Pierre Legrand:

Thibaud,

Why do they have to be Islamicists for this to be about Islam and the intolerance it stands for? Is it not the duty of all Muslims to expand Islam by force if necessary? Do they not believe that Imams should run the Ghettos?

When you say that they are upset about poverty and the rest then why if they want to intergrate and fit in do they demand millets?

By the way I do not believe that enlisting the help of moderate muslims is the way we will change this except for the chance we have with moderates of showing them the corruption of Islam. Its harsh and I wish I didn’t feel that way but after 9/11 when every single Imam in range uttered words of condemnation that both sides could find comfort in I lost interest in trying to come to terms with Islam.

Pierre

Nov 9, 2005 - 9:47 pm 19. thibaud:

Here’s the first article I’ve seen from the US media or blogosphere that really nails it, from David Ignatius of the Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/08/AR2005110801106.html

Not surprisingly, Ignatius has lengthy and extensive first-hand experience with France as well as excellent connections across the French elite.

Excerpt:

One day in the late 1970s, the writer James Baldwin was explaining to an Arab friend that he wanted to go back to America after many years as an expatriate in France. “America has found a formula to deal with the demon of race,” Baldwin told Syrian businessman Raja Sidawi, who had a house near him in St. Paul de Vence. In France and the rest of Europe, people pretended that the race problem didn’t exist, Baldwin said, but “someday it will explode.”

Baldwin was right, on both counts. The United States began to find solutions for its tormenting “original sin” after its cities burned in the 1960s. And France, unable to make the same transition toward racial integration, is now watching flames engulf the poor suburbs of Paris that are home to many of its black and brown immigrants….

Americans of my generation remember the riots in Watts and Newark, and the explosion of rage in Washington after Martin Luther King Jr.’s death. It was a trial by fire, and it changed America….

The sin of slavery will never be fully redeemed, but America today is a far different place than where I grew up. African Americans now play prominent and powerful roles in every area of American life — as chief executives of huge companies, on television and in the movies, in top positions in government and politics. Like a recovering addict, we’re still solving the issue of race one day at a time, but we’ve come a long way.

France has scarcely begun that journey.… America’s lesson for the French is that they have a long, hard road ahead. The starting point is to break the French state of denial. The average (white) French person believes fiercely in the country’s revolutionary traditions of liberty, equality and fraternity — to the point of pretending that these virtues exist for everyone when they clearly don’t.

I lived for several years in France, returning to America a year ago, and I was always astonished by the French inability to reckon with racial divisions. You just didn’t see black or brown faces in prominent positions — not in the National Assembly, not on French television, not among business leaders, not in the media….

The French daily Le Monde recalled in an editorial Monday the warning by President Jacques Chirac in 1995, when he was still mayor of Paris, that youths in the poor suburbs would end up revolting if they couldn’t find good jobs. How right he was. Chirac, like most thoughtful people in France, could see the crisis coming, but he couldn’t take action.

Nov 10, 2005 - 4:58 am 20. thibaud:

This will be extremely painful for the French to solve, because ending the de facto exclusion of africans from all positions of influence or power, in politics, business, the media and intellectual life, can only be achieved within the next twenty years by some system of racial preferences like our affirmative action policies of the late 1960s and 1970s. And this directly violates the acred French principle of meritocracy. This is the issue of issues, the one to watch as the French try fitfully to deal with these race riots and their racial, not jihadist, problem.

Nov 10, 2005 - 5:02 am 21. jerry:

Thibaud, like all liberals in general, is stuck on stupid.

His measures of merit on describing what is going on are based upon an analogy with the Civil Rights movement and the identification and the equation of Islamicism with Anti-Semitism are indicative of the denial of the threat posed by Islam to western culture. Jihadism does not stem from poverty, it stems from a sense of triumphalism in Islamic culture. The well off and educated form the core of the movement. The role of the less fortunate is that of willing foot soldiers for Jihad.

The attacks on French Jews by North Africans are more a product of the interaction of European leftism and their appeasement of Arabia then Islam per se. North Africans really don’t care a hoot about the Palestinian cause. Actually, most social surveys show that even the Arab street in Egypt, Lebanon and even Syria don’t care a lot either. When given a slate of issues, the Palestinian cause falls near the bottom. When the left is out agitating then groups of Muslims attack Jews.

There is also a logistics factor in these riots that reduce the opportunity for attacking Jews. Muslims and Jews are simply not co-located. These riots are limited by terrain as we would say in the military. Other then a few hit and run raids any attempt by large groups of rioters to attack outside their communities would be quickly cut off and defeated by the police. They need neighborhood cover to carry on over time. You saw some of this in LA in 1992. When rioters ventured too far outside their neighborhoods they were either confronted by armed citizens or the police and quickly withdrew.

Thibaud keeps hitting the race angle even though a quick look across the channel would reveal many of the same social pathologies in the UK Muslim community even though they have fairly robust economy and little or no discrimination.

I think Thibaud’s analysis is clouded by his cultural nihilism. He has become pathologically anti-Christian and sees

Nov 10, 2005 - 5:42 am 22. Michael_B:

The Ignatius article Thibaud recommends is a good read, in fact have always found David Ignatius to be an evenly tempered reporter and opinion columnist. For example, two recent Ignatius articles (free reg. req.): A Better Strategy For Iraq and Window Into Al Qaeda are both incisive reports, neither of which are distorted with the agitprop/pseudo-reportage so common among other MSM reporters and columnists.

Nov 10, 2005 - 6:56 am 23. Syl:

What I don’t understand is why it seems people have to engage in ‘either/or’–it’s either racism or it’s islam. Well I suppose it’s understandable because thibaud insists it’s racism only, so those who disagree stretch it farther the other way. That’s how politics and argument seems to work.

I definitely see racism in that the French do not seem to have even tried to integrate these immigrants. Separating them into ghettos and the results of doing so obviously lead to the same results as America had decades ago.

But there is a difference, too. In France there are two full-blown cultures involved, instead of a mainstream culture clashing with a sub-culture. And in France this culture is frustrated that it has not been able to reap the promises of France and fulfill the dream their parents had when they arrived. Yes, for sure.

But this culture’s reaction is to say ‘You don’t want us? Well we don’t want you, either. We have our own established laws to live by and we don’t want yours or your interference!’

This adds an extra layer of complexity to any solution France may propose. The decades of time this culture has had to solidify its identity and ties with each other because of being separated from the core French culture only contributes further to the problem.

We don’t need hardcore Islamists to be involved at all for these conditions to arise. The Islamists would be a problem whether the immigrants had integrated or not, for there would still be the hardcore who will find their opportunities for mischief like we find in Britain.

But now in France we have millions involved in a culture clash.

The worst thing for France to do, IMHO, is turn to the clerics and other religious leaders, no matter how moderate any of them may be, to help solve the problem. That presents the image that it is Islam which is the problem and forces the immigrant culture to go on the defensive. Their intolerance of the other is great enough as it is.

Instead, France should only address the economic issues and should, dammit, address the racism issue by allowing full integration of the immigrants. If this can only be done by some form of affirmative action then so be it.

This is not appeasement. It’s diffusion of the problem. There will be hardcore Islamists that appear to integrate who really don’t and they will be dangerous…but it will be no more dangerous than the same problem we have in America.

So stress the economics and racism, not Islam. For doing otherwise is only inflammatory and disallows the sorting out of those in the culture that mean us no harm.

Nov 10, 2005 - 9:36 am 24. jerry:

Syl:

As common sensical as your approach may sound, France and indeed much Europe have past the point of no return on the integration issue. You cannot turn back the clock to the early 1970’s when France led Europe into an unholy alliance with Arab/Muslim World. Eurabia is now a fact that must be dealt with.

The concept of Eurabia really predates the rise of radical Islam. It would now be a problem even if Al Qa’da didn’t exist. The problem would be less globally threatening then it is now but Europe would still be facing slow demographic Islamization. The fact is that even moderate Islamic culture does not want the same things that the Europe wants. Sure they like cell phones and DVDs but they also do not want the same kind of hedonistic culture that has become dominant in the Western World. As Muslims become a larger part of Europe the kind of civil and cultural rights we value will get displaced.

However, radical Islam is a fact of life. Where there are large Muslim populations “assimilated” or not the radical faction will find a hearing. It does not take a lot of diehard radicals to make this an explosive situation. Trouble will start with the radicals but the many will follow even if they have jobs.

The only hope to contain the radicals is to enforce Western legal norms. European societies have conspicuously failed to do so. Honor killings go unpunished and Courts do not enforce their own inheritance laws in Muslim communities. By default Muslims are granted exemptions from Civil Society. Assimilation is two way street. Society can only grant conditional assimilation. You gain entry into Civil Society by accepting legal and cultural norms. Pluralism only allows you to practice your customs when they do not conflict with the law. That has not happened in Europe, even in the UK.

Europe has passed the point of no return they are left with only two options, capitulation or Civil War, and Europeans have lost their ability to influence the choice. The Muslim colonists will now determine the course of action.

Nov 10, 2005 - 12:01 pm 25. AlanC:

I’m afraid that Jerry has it all too right.

Almost every person I read on this topic, not just here, approaches the problem as though it was one sided. It’s always “France has to do this, France has to do that.”

This is the same dialog you hear about a football game. “The defense just has to shut down the running game”. Um, guys, the OFFENSE has something to say about that, ya know?

This is a clash of civilizations. The rioters do not need Osama or Zarq to lead them at this point; they only need a common world view. This view has been fed to them incessently by the mosques and Imams, Al Jazeerah, French arrogance, French / Arab anti-semitism and anti-Americanism, etc.

The fuse has been lit. Just as the Russian revolution happened without Lenin, this next French revolt can happen without “Osama”. But, just as Lenin arrived in time to take over, the Islamic equivalent will arrive at the “proper” time.

The false analogy to the US Civil Rights movement, Thibaud et. al., is wrong for this very simple reason…

The race problem in the US was due to the blacks being cut out of all the good things in society. In short, they wanted in. You never heard MLK, et. al. calling for a rebirth of the Kingdom of Mali.

The Muslims in France don’t want in, they want OUT of society AND they want the society OUT of Europe.

If you like the vision of a 21st century Sharia ruling over Europe, cheer on the rioters, if not, maybe prayer is in order.

Nov 10, 2005 - 12:56 pm 26. Michael_B:

More mischief yet into the mix, a post at The Russian Dilettante’s, excerpt:

“Much of French and, alas, American social policy is premised on a humanist-Enlightenment ideology that is quite optimistic about human nature. It seems to owe much to Rousseau’s claim that Man is naturally good but artificial barriers of culture, religion and class corrode his primeval goodness. Hence the “noble savage” theory. Therefore, perfect “equality” and “social justice” is what will keep Man straight.”

[...]

“Apparently, a lot of educated people in the West still cling to the Rousseauist fantasy.”

Nov 10, 2005 - 2:16 pm 27. Syl:

I merely posited what I thought France should do, I didn’t offer my opinion on whether they will or not.

And integration obviously implies under French laws, not Sharia. And getting rid of ‘no go’ zones is a necessary step.

I have not yet reached the point of giving up like so many here have already. Though the enforced separation of the cultures has solidified much on the immigrants side, I do not believe for a minute that all of those immigrants would reject integrating if they really had a chance to.

It’s like you hate French culture so much that you’ve totally given up on the notion that any of the immigrants would willingly mix in if given the chance.

That’s painting with two broad brushes.

I’m not saying there isn’t a problem. The Islamists and their da’wa is very serious. But you can’t tell me that all muslims will willingly submit to all the laws of Sharia!

Look at the Taliban in Afghanistan! The people hated it. It was stable and safe but they sure didn’t like it. As soon as the Americans came, the Taliban crumbled because the people weren’t supporting them. Even Zawahiri recognizes that!

Look what has happened in towns across western Iraq! The foreign jihadists come in and impost sharia on the towns. The people are helpless to fight it. Some of the elders are able to put militias together to fight the Islamists but many can’t even do that.

It took them a while, but the tribal leaders, sunnis, actually started to ask the Americans for help! And as more and more Iraqis got involved in the fighting, more and more towns requested help!

Jeeeez people. You act like all muslims want to submit totally. They do not!

Nov 10, 2005 - 3:53 pm 28. jerry:

Syl:

Your analysis is good but you miss an essential point. That is, Both the Iraqis and the Afghans needed an outside force to put down the Islamicists. They lacked the ability to do it on their own because when you don’t live in Civil Society the ruthless men with guns control outcome.

Since the Great War, which we celebrate the end tomorrow, sapped the collective will of France to stand up to the ruthless men with guns. The Islamcists know this and will exploit it.

Nov 10, 2005 - 4:40 pm 29. AlanC:

Jeez, Jerry, I gotta agree with you again.

Syl, you said “Look at the Taliban in Afghanistan! The people hated it. ”

Let’s assume you’re correct. Then you have to ask, why was the Taliban in charge?

The Islamists know how to control Muslims. If they take over the riots and the French don’t fight for their (our) culture someone will have to or Sharia (at least in some 21st century garb) will start creeping in town by town, city by city more and more.

Nov 10, 2005 - 5:12 pm 30. Syl:

Alan and Jerry

Yes, exactly. Muslims can’t do it themselves. They either submit or run away. It’s very rare they have the means to fight. I was writing a message about that but it got lost.

I’m afraid the right isn’t going to like this, but one way I see of at least getting the problem in the open is to name muslims a victim class.

If the multiculturalists can come to understand that enclaves of sharia hurt muslims the most (and it goes against most everything the multi-culti types believe) and the rest of us keep harping about the true victims of Islamism it’s a start.

Convince the authorities of the host country to not even consider, or give up on, no-go zones. Maintain the rule of law of the host country at any cost.

Do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, allow any sharia law to enter the books of the host country. None whatsoever! That is submission to da’wa.

And maybe an ad campaign that makes fun of men who are afraid of women.

Britain obviously doesn’t have as far to go as France because there is much more integration. Much much more. But enclaves of sharia cannot be allowed.

What frightens me is that this task seems so impossible. More because of the left and the multi-culturalists than even the Islamists. I still think the Islamists are outnumbered by ordinary folk…they just hold the power in the community groups. I think this can be countered too by not allowing them to have so much power.

No piggy banks? I mean it’s not even funny.

Nov 10, 2005 - 5:41 pm 31. Syl:

France wouldn’t even submit to ‘no piggy banks!’

Nov 10, 2005 - 5:43 pm 32. Luther McLeod:

“And maybe an ad campaign that makes fun of men who are afraid of women.”

Great point. Perhaps humor is the solution. Ridicule can do much.

Nov 10, 2005 - 7:19 pm 33. jerry:

Luther:

You have to have a sense of humor to appreciate it. The men who it is aimed at would simply be enraged..

Nov 10, 2005 - 9:04 pm 34. AlanC:

Syl,

I think that your heart is certainly in the right place. But, when you say things like:

“I’m afraid the right isn’t going to like this, but one way I see of at least getting the problem in the open is to name muslims a victim class.

If the multiculturalists can come to understand that enclaves of sharia hurt muslims the most (and it goes against most everything the multi-culti types believe) and the rest of us keep harping about the true victims of Islamism it’s a start.”

I’m afraid that you are projecting your own conversion to rationality onto others.

This is what Bush and company have been saying since day 1. What do you think all that crap about the RoP, that he spews constantly, is?

What could possibly have been a more blatant view of the nightmare to come than the Taliban? How did the multi-cultis and feminists and MSM et. al. react? They went into denial and blamed Bush for 9/11.

How about the terror attacks on Israel, Bali, Beslan, Van Gogh? The only way they will get their heads out of their a$$es is if it happens to them directly. When the WMD goes off in Hollywood or SF MAYBE they’ll get it. It hit NYC to the tune of 3000 dead and it didn’t get through. I’m afraid that the number has to go well into the 6 digits. And then they may just surrender.

You also say:

“What frightens me is that this task seems so impossible.”

Yep, me too.

Nov 11, 2005 - 4:59 am

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