I didn’t realize this was an argument exclusively about military history. I thought it was about politics. Thanks for the study guide but I fail to see how any of that wonderful knowledge has helped you to even respond to my argument, let alone refute it.

My point was simply this. Bad politics is the reason you are losing. So perhaps you should bone up on political history. But I am not going to engage in intellectual argument with the uninformed.

Maybe you think that if only the rest of the American public understood military history as you that the poll numbers would somehow be different. Maybe then the American public would say, “oh well come on, this war isn’t as bad as Operation Market Garden so we had better support it.” I don’t think so, dude.

After reading the posts on this blog I am convinced that many of you are willing to support this war as long as it takes–that you would stay the course if it were up to you. But it is not up to you any more. And the question you are going to have to ask yourselves is how did you let that happen? How did your team lose control of the war?

Yes, war is unpredictable and you don’t know what’s going to happen, Jerry. My point precisely. Fog of War and all. I see that as strengthening the argument of why we never should have gone into this war in the first place. I’m sure you will see it as exactly the opposite.

Maybe our tough-as-nails (rhymes with chickenhawk) leaders really did go in there without a plan. After all maybe war is really like an open mike blues jam and only dorks bring chord charts and sheet music. The real deal dudes just show up and jam. I don’t think it is though.

By the way many of you on this site talk about the military as a monolithic institution that wants this or wants that. Of course I don’t have Jerry’s extensive military and planning background but I do know enough about the military to know that leaders in the military have expressed criticisms and different opinions. Not every military leader has agreed with Rumsfeld’s logistics and strategy.

When it comes to discussing reasons we went to war I don’t think that people on the right and left will ever see eye to eye on it. Fine. That too is history. The point is what lessons we will learn from it and how we will move forward. If the only takeaway you come up with is that plans are for pussies and sh$t happens, don’t expect American citizens to keep giving you the keys to the White House and Congress again any time soon.

Here’s a hint. Try leveling with the American public next time. Tell the truth and stop speaking to us like four-year-olds and really make the case that the war is worth our sacrifice. Give us something to do other than telling us to go shopping. If you use lies and deception the window gets even shorter because eventually people wise up and they get pissed when they finally figure it out. You can fool all of the American people almost all of the time but they will catch on someday.

So, as we say in the blue states, adieu mon amis, you won’t have wingnutsrus to kick around anymore. I will leave you to fester in your own stew and I promise that I won’t come back. I have learned many things–for example that you don’t have to take it when someone calls you a chickenhawk if you support the war and don’t serve because, hell, THE ARMY DOESN’T WANT YOU ANYWAY!!! That is a good one. I will be sure to use that as I am sipping chardonnay and eating fine Belgian cheeses at the next Democratic fundraiser I attend in the Hollywood Hills. I have also learned that much of the discourse on this site is relatively intelligent (not yours, Jerry) and earnest and that many of you are deeply concerned about this country. But almost all of you are completely and utterly insane. God bless you all. Good luck and fare thee well.

Here is what those of us who have a military and planning background say: Those who know don’t talk and those talk don’t know. Your ignorance is showing. I suggest you humble yourself and study real military history. If you want to know what real fubar-ed operations look like I suggest you study Operation Overlord and Operation Market Garden. You might also want to spend a little time looking at the execution of the occupation of Germany. We didn’t have much of a plan for that one either.

I am not going to engage in intellectual gunfight with the unarmed. Go study and come back when you know something.

Do you really believe this Jerry? Are you saying that our great leaders didn’t have a plan? Are plans just for liberals and other weak-need tree huggers? Is it a sign of weakness that hard-nosed righties like you eschew?

Maybe if I had a military or planning background I would realize that plans are for pussies after all …

You’re so right. I don’t have military or planning experience but how does this refute any of my argument?

How does that change the fact that the majority of America is against you now? How does that change the fact that your boys lost momentum in the critical early stages of the occupation?

Let me get this straight, is your argument that “Stuff happens?” Gee if that’s the best you can do no wonder the tides have turned against you now. That’s not a good enough argument.

On the subject of arrogance and stupidity a number of influential right wingers assured us that the war was going to be over in a matter of months and that we would be greeted as liberators. Didn’t exactly turn out that way, did it?

You show the kind of detachment from reality that many critics of this or any war have. You obviously have no military or even planning experience shows. You have this idea that events can be scripted in advance. However, since the future is unknown, all a plan does is organize your thoughts. The enemy gets a vote on your plans and therefore, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. That is one the most important laws of war. So this idea that supporters of Saddam have that we screwed up because we did not have a “plan” shows and astounding level of arrogance that wells up out your ignorance.

Classic wingnut style Peter. Attack the messenger when you don’t like the message. Go ahead and swift boat me cuz I know the message has gotta hurt. You’ve seen those poll numbers? Ouch.

Two things: 1. I am not a democrat 2. my point is that this song, regardless of who wrote it will be sung most loudly and led by Republicans fearing for their political “arses” as you would say.

There are some interesting arguments floated here but none of them are going to do anything to influence political reality. I think a lot of you need to spend some quality time outside of this right-wing circle jerk and see what’s going on in the real world.

We had a very small window to stablize Iraq and we blew it. It’s clear that we didn’t have a plan. Years from now historians will debate how and why the occupation was botched … Was it Bremer’s disbanding the Baathists? Was it a failure to secure caches of seized arms? Conservative antipathy towards government and distrust of wonkishness necessary to pull off a large scale occupation? Hubris? Arrogance? Leave that to the historians and masturbatory blog discussions. The American people have a short attention span and they don’t have the will to fight protracted wars that seem like a lost cause. Add being lied to that and they tend to get a little impatient.

You probably all wish that it was just the Hollywood liberals, Ted Kennedy and the Michael Moore’s who oppose this war now. But this shizzle has gone mainstream. Red staters scaping those W ‘04 stickers off the car and opposing the war. The majority of the public want to end this thing. And that is all that politicians of any stripe need to hear before they start figuring out CYA strategies.

Our country has been ill-served by a group of overly ideological righties who didn’t crunch the numbers and sweat the hard stuff. They got us into a war and didn’t figure out the logistics. That is their worst and most unforgivable mistake. I think that was when the neo-con movement began jumping the shark.

I for one don’t believe that the answer is in pacifism or isolationism. What we need is a return to old school hard-nosed realpolitik-based foreign policy. This country needs an ideological enema. We need to crawl out of our little right-left blog bunkers and figure out what the hell we are gonna do now cause the future doesn’t look too pretty.

So far you have not put foreward what you regard as a solution in respect to some of the Sunni minority’s terror campaign which is creating such hatred that the only thing that stops them from being ethnically cleansed is the Coalition Armies.”

Let’s bring the discussion back to topic, as interesting as historical tangents may be. I have not put forward a solution to this problem because there is no solution, from the point of view of the occupying force anyway. We can’t militarily force a given ethnic or sectarian group to accept an order they do not view as legitimate. Saddam could, but we are not in a position to replicate his style of rule.

Moving on, this one from Sandy is a partuclar head scratcher for me:

I say, “As to our discussion, I think Turkey, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Malaysia all qualify as democratic.” Sandy’s reply, “And France would not. Interesting.”

Huh, I thought we we talking about democratic Muslim-majority countries. France is not Muslim majority. Yet, interestingly, of all the many democratic non-Muslim majority democracies of the world that I was obviously NOT talking about, you bring up only France. I’m curious as to why that is.

I see you are singing the Democratic marching song “Cut and Run”‘

Sluff it off on the Ottomans,what on earth are you talking about? This was never mentioned.

If there is any fault with the Ottoman’s it was Imperial overreach and making the mistake of allying with Germany,mainly because of the threat posed by Russia.

The british did not want any part of the territory,but with the economic and governmental collapse of Ottoman Turkish rule there were few nations left undamaged to administer the region,whic again was in ,this time ,Communist Russia’s sights.Read up about the “Great Game”

“Also, as a matter of correction, I never said Islam was out of bounds, I said I had no interest in participating in a discussion that was going to be nothing more than demonizing the entire faith. Finally, however Iraq got to the sorry state of affairs it currently finds itself, there it is, and no combination of hoping and blaming is going to change that reality.”

In which case learn about the Muslim Brotherhood.

There you go again asserting something is so,what reality? Your version of reality?

So far you have not put foreward what you regard as a solution in respect to some of the Sunni minority’s terror campaign which is creating such hatred that the only thing that stops them from being ethnically cleansed is the Coalition Armies.

Interesting.