Well, not Damascus, Baghdad really (big difference!)… but what should be surprising to everyone, given what we’ve been force fed, is this poll reported by Sen. Joseph Lieberman after his fourth trip to Iraq:
Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America’s bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.
Now wait a minute, I’m told every night on television and every morning in the papers that the war is a fiasco. You mean it’s actually possible the Iraqi people themselves may see it differently? Well, they’re just Iraqis. What do they know? Do they read the New York Times? [At least six of them.-ed. But more important, do they read Paul Krugman? He'd set them straight. No one in Iraq wants to pay for that.]
I hope the New York Times, CBS, the LAT and the rest run this poll as prominently as they trumpet the latest debacle on Bush’s domestic war numbers. Will they do it? I doubt it. But their war coverage, of course, is what is most responsible for those domestic numbers. They owe it to the Iraqi people to set the record straight. But like those neurotics who always “want to be right,” I don’t think our media will wander into the treacherous land of self-examination. Only mass therapy would help. But who is going to give that? (via Glenn)
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47 Comments
1. jedrury:What an intriguing turn of events. Lieberman comes out in the WSJ today taking about “staying the course.” The Economist says the same thing in its lead story.
Who will hold the silly irresponsible MSM American media to task – after this is all over? Who will turn to Vargas (ABC), Williams (NBC), Schieffer (CBS) and Wolf on CNN and tell then that the reporting was biased,flawed, irrationally anti Bush and maliciously intended to subvert the American commitment to the Iraqi people?
No one – that is who. Because it is all yesterday’s news.
As an afterthought, the Internet will not forget or forgive.
Nov 29, 2005 - 7:36 am 2. Always right:Roger,
It is a lost cause to try to convince the liberals and MSM with facts/stats. They are so convinced of their view and morality in this war (not just the Iraq war, but the general GWoT), nothing will change their mind. When confronted with facts/stats which they can not refute, there is always the good old stand-by “But…” What will history judge us in this era, if we survive?
Besides, no liberals think Lieberman as a Dem (or a credible Dem) anymore. Is there an equivalent term as RINO to describe Dem in the reverse?
Nov 29, 2005 - 7:46 am 3. Joseph (formerly Samuel):Well jedrury I don’t know about the Internet, but I never will.
Nov 29, 2005 - 7:46 am 4. dougf:I hope the New York Times, CBS, the LAT and the rest run this poll as prominently as they trumpet the latest debacle on Bush’s domestic war numbers. Will they do it? I doubt it. But their war coverage, of course, is what is most responsible for those domestic numbers.
And right you are.
Which brings me to my favourite hobby-horse for yet another ride around the, by now familiar, course.
Despite the best efforts of bloggers to ‘overcome’ the treacherous effects of BIG MEDIA propaganda , the fight to get a more ‘objective’ picture presented is still an uphill struggle.
I don’t think that there should be any further attempt to ‘explain’ or ‘contextualise’ MSM activity. They don’t require ’self-examination’; they require to be called what they are.
And that is : Deliberately tendentious opponents of their own Nation in a time of International Crisis. In short perfidious propagandists. The ‘nuance’ of trying to ‘understand’ why they do things is lost in translation to the final audience. The way to confront their enervating and self-fulfilling variant of the BIG LIE is to BOTH point out the more complete truth ,AND to ascribe motivations at every opportunity.
Their ‘output’ should be treated constantly as coming from bad-faith ideologues not as ‘careless’ and ‘clueless’ mistakes. If you make the same ‘mistake’ over and over and over again, despite shouts of objection, is it any longer a ‘mistake’?
In short—- Question Their Patriotism, their judgement,and their motives, and force them to the defensive at every opportunity. It’s not only a FAIR tactic; it’s a REQUIRED tactic. They must not only lose this battle; they must lose the larger war as well. There is a reason they have tried desperately to take this line of reasoning off the table, and it’s not because they they are ‘defenders of the Republic’. When ‘individuals’ act in concert to present a like-minded reality(whether by conscious design or group-think ), they cease to be individuals and become a they or an it . Freedom of the Press is freedom from State intrusion; it is NOT Freedom from criticism from whatever sources are available(including organs of the State).
What happens the NEXT time a crisis arises and the same players are still weaving their personal fantasies into the TRUTH for dissemination to the greatly in need of information?
They are losing influence BUT not fast enough.
Faster Please.
Nov 29, 2005 - 7:49 am 5. Always right:Another sore point on my list is the portrait of the regular Joe Redneck. How dumb they think we are!
Just because we read/watch NYT, CBS, etc. and not buy into their arguments, we have below average mental power. When you point out history that goes against their theory, they come out and make a TV series or a movie to re-write it. I guess, if you re-run it enough times, people will buy into their “truth”.
Gggrrrrrrrrrrr
Nov 29, 2005 - 7:55 am 6. jedrury:Dougf: I agree with all that your write.
The MSM never puts itself in a position to be cross examined on their perfidies. I watched Brokaw on C Span do a clueless gabfest at the Kennedy School program with “Fat Teddy,” Paul Begala and others. Chris Matthews may do Hardball on campus but those are so scripted by him that there is never is an opportunity to challenge him. A few weeks ago there was a NY Times “lovefest” seminar in NYC probably at the New School. Krugman was there as weird as ever looking like he got a day pass from Bellevue. Gail Collins was giggly and controlling of the mike. Take a gander at C Span which is the only real media venue to see them; you will notice their complete and total cushy isolation.
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:04 am 7. Joseph (formerly Samuel):Is there an equivalent term as RINO to describe Dem in the reverse?
Yea, it is called a DINO. Joe Lieberman isn’t even a true DINO because his voting record is basically liberal, he is more of a Maverick on Moral issues and the WOT, if they Democrats allowed for such people I would surely still be a Democrat. They have given in to the moonbat part of their constituency and unfortunately for them their ultra left wing base is much larger then the Right Wing ultra counterpart. There are many more flavors of conservative ideology and this gives a healthy tension that lends to course correction on the right. The bottom line is Republicans are not as dead as advertised by the MSM and their liberal enemies. The MSM and Liberals are negative wishful thinkers in a deluded political state and desearve all the consequences such delusion will bring. Bush and the conservatives are down but they can only go up, the MSM and liberals are over-playing their hand, polls show on a gut level the American people understand this. Placing politcal bets on negative outcomes is never a good idea, yet that is what the Democrats have done. For Democrats to win we all lose, if they lose we win but they as a Party lose. At least Joe Lieberman understands what is truly important, I wish their were more like him.
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:06 am 8. Dan Patterson:Your comments about the dissimilar expectations of Iraqi’s and the writers and readers of the NYT, et al stike a painful chord. I remember all too well the mid-60’s and the difference between the “pointy-headed-oh-so-smarts” and some of us simpler folk. There was much chattering about how the US was the aggressor against the Soviet Union, only interested in profits for the military industrial complex. Sessions of hand-wringing about Vietnam and how the communists only wanted peace. The war is all our fault, you see? China and Russia? Why they are pursuing their own peaceful interests in Cambodia and Hungary. The student movement against the Vietnam war was solidly NOT a movement to curtail armed conflict but one of knee-jerk response with little or no thought to it’s actions.
And then came the TET offensive. A military disaster for the enemy. A surprise and a deadly challenge to be certain, but a defeat for the enemy on all fronts. Ah, but not for Walter Cronkite and his army of naive opponents of success. His famous mumble that the war was now widely understood to be unwinnable became one of the pivot points for political opposition. Continued meddling from the administration and continued misreporting brought the will to win to it’s knees. And millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians were among the victims, along with the members of the US military who served with pride and distinction.
Now we have a new old fad among the newspeople: “The War Is Going Badly” has spread like a virus. A false premise that is routinely believed by the MSM without regard to abundant reports, polls, and convictions of those who see and live a different story. It is understood by them that Iraq is no better off now than before, that the US is the cause of terrorism, and that the war on terror is like a famine in Africa–too far away to be ‘our’ concern. A shame, really, but not a threat. They believe their thesis like they believed Vietnam was unjust, and like they believe that Marx wasn’t evil but only followed a ‘different philosophy’. Hah!
Brutal tyranny and fascist oppression should be oppossed by anyone who cares for their fellow man. Support for freedom and liberty deserve a better voice than we presently hear from our major news outlets. My thanks to all who serve and have served to further the cause of libery. And my thanks to all in the alternate media for providing balance, even while in your pajamas.
Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel
The Holy City of Winston-Salem
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:11 am 9. In Vino Veritas:I wonder if the good Senator will back up his poll with a cite; else I call bullshit.
Back here in reality, the British MoD conducted a secret poll which found the following:
-Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified – rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;
-less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;
-67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;
-43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;
-72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.
Should that be reported as well? Should I question the patriotism of those who would send our troops to a land where the overwhelming majority of people want them to die?
It comes down to this: they don’t want us there, and we don’t ant to be there. I see where the President is finally going to announce a timetable for withdrawal tomorrow. It’s about time. Bring the boys home.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/23/ixworld.html
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:17 am 10. dougf:I see where the President is finally going to announce a timetable for withdrawal tomorrow…–IVV
Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound.
I’ll tell you what. If the President announces a ‘timetable for withdrawl’ based upon date certains as opposed to the ‘timetable’ he has always propounded, namely one solely dependent on Iraqi readiness, then I will no longer post here. Everyone knows Coaltion Forces will withdraw. it’s merely timing in dispute.
On the other hand if he says exactly what he has been saying for YEARS, then YOU no longer post here. I’m sure you can find a more congenial local wherein your ‘childish’ postering,selective amnesia, and lack of perspective, will be considered the height of wisdom.
It’s not as if you are lending a necessary voice of reason or anything, and it’s not as if my lack of contributions will be the end of the world.
So do we have a BET ?
Oh and a proviso— Withdraw does not include the intentional ‘overlap’ of troops to cover the December Election period. There will clearly be a withdrawl of those troops in the 1st quarter of 2006. We are talking a reduction in the baseline figure of approximately 142,000.
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:35 am 11. David Thomson:ìAt least Joe Lieberman understands what is truly important, I wish their were more like him.î
Itís about time that we heard from Senator Joe Lieberman. I was getting concerned that the leftist Democrats had silenced him. He is now a marginalized figure within the Democratic Party. It might even behoove the Connecticut elected official to join the Republicans. This would force its remaining followers to do some serious soul searching. Could it do some good? Of course not. They are too far gone to be saved. Iím convinced that the Democrats are finished as a national party. At the very best, they will try to con the American people. They cannot, however, run as themselves especially in matters concerning defense issues.
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:52 am 12. Always right:IVV: It comes down to this: they don’t want us there, and we don’t (w)ant to be there. I see where the President is finally going to announce a timetable for withdrawal tomorrow. It’s about time. Bring the boys home.
Bring the boys home to what? How is it beneficial to anybody to leave a job half done? It is equivalent to leave Japan/Germany 18 months after the end of WWII. I am sure the Japanese and Germans didn’t want us there, and we didn’t want to be there. But at least that generation had enough intenstinal fortitute to know better than leaving a job half done.
Well, we have not yet finished the “job” yet: the Japanese and Germans don’t want us there today, shouldn’t we pull our troops out from their soil first? Working on similar timeframe, I’d say we could pull our troops out of ME in another 60 years.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:00 am 13. Mark_Belt:In Vino Veritas:
You need an editor: the word is site, and I cite the dictionary.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:07 am 14. Keith_Indy:Does an op-ed in the LA Times count???
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-boot23nov23,0,3169862.column?coll=la-util-op-ed
Yet in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse.
American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American civilians. The Pew Research Center and the Council on Foreign Relations just released a survey of American elites that found that 64% of military officers are confident that we will succeed in establishing a stable democracy in Iraq. The comparable figures for journalists and academics are 33% and 27%, respectively. Even more impressive than the Pew poll is the evidence of how our service members are voting with their feet. Although both the Army and the Marine Corps are having trouble attracting fresh recruits ó no surprise, given the state of public opinion regarding Iraq ó reenlistment rates continue to exceed expectations. Veterans are expressing their confidence in the war effort by signing up to continue fighting.
…
FOR STARTERS, one can point to two successful elections this year, on Jan. 30 and Oct. 15, in which the majority of Iraqis braved insurgent threats to vote. The constitutional referendum in October was particularly significant because it marked the first wholesale engagement of Sunnis in the political process. Since then, Sunni political parties have made clear their determination to also participate in the Dec. 15 parliamentary election. This is big news. The most disaffected group in Iraq is starting to realize that it must achieve its objectives through ballots, not bullets.
There are also positive economic indicators that receive little or no coverage in the Western media. For all the insurgents’ attempts to sabotage the Iraqi economy, the Brookings Institution reports that per capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30% higher than it was before the war. Thanks primarily to the increase in oil prices, the Iraqi economy is projected to grow at a whopping 16.8% next year. According to Brookings’ Iraq index, there are five times more cars on the streets than in Saddam Hussein’s day, five times more telephone subscribers and 32 times more Internet users.
The growth of the independent media ó a prerequisite of liberal democracy ó is even more inspiring. Before 2003 there was not a single independent media outlet in Iraq. Today, Brookings reports, there are 44 commercial TV stations, 72 radio stations and more than 100 newspapers.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:15 am 15. Keith_Indy:Oh, and we don’t want to forget this good news, from the same op-ed
********
But aren’t bombs still going off at an alarming rate? Of course. It’s almost impossible to stop a few thousand fanatics who are willing to commit suicide to slaughter others.
Yet there is hope on the security front. Since the Jan. 30 election, not a single Iraqi unit has crumbled in battle, according to Army Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, who until September was in charge of their training. Iraqi soldiers are showing impressive determination in fighting the terrorists, notwithstanding the terrible casualties they have taken. Their increasing success is evident on “Route Irish,” from Baghdad International Airport. Once the most dangerous road in Iraq, it is now one of the safest. The last coalition fatality there that was a result of enemy action occurred in March.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:16 am 16. Joseph (formerly Samuel):David, I listen to friends family members and they are convinced Bush is done, a lame duck taking down the Republicans with him in two years. Tim Kaine (D) wins the Governership here in Virginia and they view it as a sign of Democratic renewal on the horizens. Forget the fact that Tim Kaine ran on the right as an NRA gun toting, religious former missionary who loves Jesus and is against Partial Birth Abortion. He also believes that parental/spousal notification is a good thing when it comes to Abortion.
If the Democrats let people like this run on a National level, or participate front and center in Democratic Leadership and Policy making then my friends and family are right to be hopeful. This is a pipe dream for Democrats have nothing to offer but anti-religious empty pessimism. As I said in the last thread, this is the kind of politics that disillusions me because such partisanship is more about who implements the policy rather then actual policy. This is unprincipled partisan politics and leads to nothing productive. On the WOT Joe is above this. If people would track their list of policy priorities and accept progress from wherever it may come rather then rooting for the ‘home team’ we would be so much better off.
For instance the multilateralists on the left might even realize that John Bolton is their best hope for the UN’s survival which in my opinion may not be a good thing, but at least they should be happy. I could go on but I make my point.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:23 am 17. In Vino Veritas:Keith:
The International Republican Institute is a partisan Republican think tank. The MoD poll, on the other hand, was not conducted for political purposes, but to accurately reflect facts on the ground.
http://www.iri.org/history.asp
Propaganda versus reality. I see you’ve staked your ground.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:26 am 18. David Thomson:ìTim Kaine (D) wins the Governership here in Virginiaî
I have consistently stated that the Democrats are still alive and kicking in local elections. My argument is solely limited to the race for the presidency. This is where the crap hits the proverbial fan. The radical leftists dominate the national landscape. They possess the veto power over who ultimately gets the partyís nomination.
The Democratic strategists will attempt to deceive the American people. How will we be able to distinguish between truth and bovine excrement? this is a very easy question to answer. The Daily Kos crowd will be respectful if they perceive the con is on. However, they will viciously attack this candiate if the nominee is truly ìpro-war.î On other words, if Hillary Clinton is not being described as a bitch or a c*nt—then we know we are being suckered.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:41 am 19. Ed Poinsett:It’s easy for me. Saddam lied, people died.
The dems, as a party, are whiners, quitters and losers. I’d add liars and traitors, but that’s a little provocative.
For the rest of my days on earth, I’ll never forget the perfidy of the MSM and the Democrat Party on this issue, the single most important challenge to our way of life since WWII.
I exclude the Cold War as we were dealing with a rational foe. There is nothing rational about Fundamentalist Islam.
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:55 am 20. dougf:Propaganda versus reality. I see you’ve staked your ground.—IVV
Now that is an extra fine example of irony .
Congratulations, IVV, that is almost dictionary quality grade.
Nov 29, 2005 - 10:03 am 21. Keith_Indy:Publically accessible data, vs a secret government survey…
So which is propoganda???
Nov 29, 2005 - 11:05 am 22. Joseph (formerly Samuel):In Vino Veritas
You can believe in Santa Claus as far as I care, true Leaders don’t make policy from polls. Democrats don’t have many true leaders as they twist and bend in the wind endeavoring to chase public opinion.
If you are so smart how did Nixon win 60% of the vote while public opinion had already soured on the Vietnam War? I will tell you that understanding human nature is more important then following fickle polls. Go back and read the polls during the Reagan Presidency one day, most of his domestic policies did not receive majority support, yet today the public will tell you they supported them even when they didn’t at the time. Today 70% of Americans say they voted for Reagan yet he received under 60%. The truth is many who didn’t vote for him (like myself) wish they had and are recounting history through today’s convictions.
The polls you site today will also perish with time, history goes to the victors, even when manipulated by liberals. I will tell you the polls that matters are the ones that expose the fickle nature of public opinion. For all the declarations of Bush’s political doom, Bush has never sank as low as Ronald Reagan (below 30%) and is about equal with Clinton’s lowest.
The Democrats have unwittingly ceded the political high ground to Bush, for in all their doom and gloom and endeavor to convince the public what a liar and failure Bush is (and the WOT) they have left it up to Bush to prove otherwise, my gut feeling is he will oblige them and you and they will as usual act like losers and cry foul when he does.
Back to what matters, from the Washington Post (left leaning) a poll that exposes the danger for Democrats and the fickle nature of public opinion…
—————
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/26/AR2005112600745.html
Democrats fumed last week at Vice President Cheney’s suggestion that criticism of the administration’s war policies was itself becoming a hindrance to the war effort. But a new poll indicates most Americans are sympathetic to Cheney’s point.
Seventy percent of people surveyed said that criticism of the war by Democratic senators hurts troop morale — with 44 percent saying morale is hurt “a lot,” according to a poll taken by RT Strategies. Even self-identified Democrats agree: 55 percent believe criticism hurts morale, while 21 percent say it helps morale.
…the survey itself cannot be dismissed as a partisan attack. The RTs in RT Strategies are Thomas Riehle, a Democrat, and Lance Tarrance, a veteran GOP pollster.
…many Americans are skeptical of Democratic complaints about the war. Just three of 10 adults accept that Democrats are leveling criticism because they believe this will help U.S. efforts in Iraq. A majority believes the motive is really to “gain a partisan political advantage.”
…there is still support for Bush’s policy going forward. A plurality, 49 percent, believe that troops should come home only when the Iraqi government can provide for its own security, while 16 percent support immediate withdrawal, regardless of the circumstances.
—————
I understand how polls work, many are to manipulate the public, not so with the one above and it shows how vulnerable the Democrats are. When the public feels foul about things their first instinct is to concentrate it to the top leadership and will take it out on the President, but this not a guaranteed constant for such sentiments can turn on a dime.
If the public is given reason to believe the President has been mistreated and unfairly called a liar they will turn on Democrats. If the public is convinced Democrats don’t have the will to fight (McGovern), or perceive them to continue to blame Bush or America more then our enemies then they are in deep trouble. Remember the poll numbers on Katrina concerning public perception of Democratic opportunism to exploit politically the situation?
The Democrats reputation is worse then the Presidents and ironically it is now the President’s turn to respond. My prediction is the Democrats have squandered a great opportunity, Bush will prevail personally while Democrats will have a better 2006 then 2004, but it could have been much better for them had they done what is right and been honest rather then pass blame around like a bunch of school yard kindergarteners. Not very becoming for ones seeking the reigns of power, times are too serious for such unseriousness.
Cite all the poll numbers you desire, reality checks will come in for all of us and be what they will, but the one prediction I have is if there is but one man left standing Bush will be that man. All exaggerated accusations about lies and ill motives foisted upon President Bush by his political enemies will come crashing down on those who propagated such lies and exaggerations for in truth such things belong to them as they are the ones guilty of the very things they accuse him of.
Like a fine wine Bush will politically age well and his story will gain value through time. Democrats would do well to hope Americans remember Joe Leiberman’s part and not the Democratic Party’s role in writing this chapter in history.
–Joseph Samuel Friedman
Nov 29, 2005 - 11:08 am 23. vnjagvet:So let me get this straight, Mr. Veritas. You think that Lieberman is drinking republican Kool Aid, and that he is a lackey of the Bush Administration? Is that your position?
Nov 29, 2005 - 11:11 am 24. Rick Ballard:Joseph,
The Democrats cannot win with the left and they cannot win without it. Joe Lieberman’s editorial is simply an attempt to stem the tide of moderates leaving the party. He can’t succeed while Kennedy, Kerry, Biden, Levin, Leahey, Pelosi, Dean et al. have access to a microphone. The fringe needs to be fed almost constantly and even with constant feeding it is not producing anything substantive whatsoever – neither ideas nor money.
It’s amazing that a political party could have so few politicians. No Moynihans, no Jacksons, no Johnsons – with Wellstone gone not even a decent Humphrey. Lieberman and who else?
Nov 29, 2005 - 11:19 am 25. Syl:IVV makes way too many assumptions. If over 50% of Americans are soured on Iraq he assumes that means that over 50% want us to leave now.
If a majority of Iraqi’s want Americans to go home, IVV assumes they want us to go home now
IVV engages in wishful thinking about questions not asked. I determine from this that IVV himself wishes America to pull out now and thus lose. If America loses, IVV thinks that means Democrats win.
Pathetic.
Nov 29, 2005 - 11:33 am 26. Joseph (formerly Samuel):Rick
It’s amazing that a political party could have so few politicians. No Moynihans, no Jacksons, no Johnsons – with Wellstone gone not even a decent Humphrey. Lieberman and who else?
As I have said many times before the most devastating thing to happen to Democrats was losing Southern Democrats because they kept the Party in check. During Nixon and Reagan the Southern Democrats saved the Democrats from congressional defeat because they kept the public from having to deal with how radical the left had become, Catholics also helped keep them culturally in check.
The sad thing is that moralistic Catholics are the other group that Democrats are bleeding as they follow Southern Baptists to the Republican Party and our nation is headed for even greater polarization as people choose sides.
Today Republican=Conservative and Democrat=Liberal, it did not used to be that way. Think about it, Phil Graham used to be Democrat as did Trent Lott, Senator Shelby, even Orin Hatch was a Democrat! There used to be about 10 or more Zell Miller Democrats in the Senate at any given time. On the flip side is someone like Norm Coleman, a principled Jew from New York, certainly he could have lent greater moral support for Joe Lieberman had he been in the Democratic Caucus, but alas he too switch Parties about 6 years ago.
The reason there is only one Joe Lieberman is for the same reason there is only one Zell Miller, a very lonely position to be in. As a Jew, Joe Lieberman is a hero to me, but he isn’t enough to hold me in the Democratic Party, Norm Coleman won that argument (and I mean he argued it personally). I am just another casualty.
What is it, 22 percent of all Democrats used to be Republican, but 38 percent of all Republicans used to be Democrats? That is what I would call political hemorrhaging.
Nov 29, 2005 - 12:05 pm 27. Rick Ballard:Those are the correct numbers, Joseph. Far beyond the numbers, though, is the party turning away from those living under a tyrants heel. The one point that was constantly made by the Democrats – and in particular, liberal Democrats – was the “Republican” support of tyrants such as Somoza, Marcos and others. I understood realpolitik well enough to recognize the argument for necessity and I know that Democrats did the same thing but it always gave me a twinge.
I simply don’t understand how liberals can make an argument which if carried to its logical conclusion would leave the Taliban and Hussein with their boot on peoples neck. The shallowness of the arguments used to support the “it was a huge mistake” posture currently taken by those who claim to be “liberals” is simply appalling.
Nov 29, 2005 - 12:38 pm 28. Sandy P:IVV, ignore Joseph at your peril. He spelled out his bona fides before the 2004 election, he’s been around politics enough to know the score – and helped the dems score more than once.
Nov 29, 2005 - 3:32 pm 29. Sandy P:–IVV: It comes down to this: they don’t want us there, and we don’t (w)ant to be there. I see where the President is finally going to announce a timetable for withdrawal tomorrow. It’s about time. Bring the boys home.–
Oh, boy! We’re leaving Germany and SorK???!
We’ve been there longer than I’ve been alive!
Nov 29, 2005 - 3:38 pm 30. PeterUK:“The sad thing is that moralistic Catholics are the other group that Democrats are bleeding as they follow Southern Baptists to the Republican Party and our nation is headed for even greater polarization as people choose sides.”
It is a national tragedy when a political party such as the Democrats covets power so much,their faces are greasy with desire, no principle will be permitted to stand in the way of acquisition of that power.
The pursuit of power is no substitute for policies.
Nov 29, 2005 - 3:42 pm 31. Steven Mitchell:The Democratic party problems mirror what happened in the university. The real liberals caved to the leftists, so called “progressives”, transnationals, and worse. They caved so often on small things, it became a habit. Only difference with the party was that it took longer and the issues were more important. After caving to the unions, NEA, Sierra club, trial lawyers, etc.–why would we then expect them to stand up to the likes of Saddam and his defacto supporters?
That Joe Lieberman can today show some real spine after mouthing the party line as a VP candidate, really speaks to his character. I believe it was G.K. Chesterton that suggested Nietzsche warned people about the abyss, but they enjoyed his description so much that many decided to jump in. Well, everyone in the modern Democratic party has to confront the abyss, because the party demands it. The party is now divided between those that jumped enthusiastically and those that recoiled in horror. Good for Joe for backing away from the very brink.
Nov 29, 2005 - 4:13 pm 32. jerry:Joe Lieberman is a principled liberal Democrat of the Hubert Humphrey school. However, he has done his little bit it radicalizing the Demorcrats. In 2000 he willingly went to pay homage to Louis Farrakkan as directed by Gore. By doing so he helped the Democrats legitimize the anti-semitism fringe within the Democratic Party. There are many things that a VP candidate must to for the top of the ticket. This was not one of them. He should have told Gore that he cannot be expected to make nice to a Jew-hater because it would make him and his beliefs acceptable. What would Gore have done…kick him off the ticket? Lieberman missed his chance to make a statement about Farrakkan but instead he carried the water.
Nov 29, 2005 - 4:19 pm 33. RosOz:Postings and discussions such as these I find very encouraging. They help to mitigate against the MSM and chattering classes clamours that Iraq is lost and the Iraqis should now be left to struggle on their own. But it is not only the Iraqis that could feel betrayed if the doomsayers have their way.
Danís disparagement of Walter Cronkite and his army of naÔve opponents of success I enjoyed, and yet still I worry. The loss in Vietnam, so ably assisted by the hard work of many like Cronkite, has a myriad of outcomes other than the pain and shame of the US. When Iraq arose and we were asked to stand with you, Vietnam loomed large in arguments from the anti-American and anti-war crowd.
ìAmericans just donít have the ticker to go the distance if they invadeî and, ìthe US would never stand by us unless it was in their national interest, so we would be fools to stand with them, again.î
The squawks of your Democrats in particular and your ìliberalî left would leave no Australians in doubt I believe, that the notion that the US doesnít have ticker and only helps if it is of sufficient return for the US, is a perfectly valid one when applied to some Americans. These considered and informative blogs are however encouraging, I hope that the American people stay as courageous and generous and smart as these sites would indicate they are.
As to those for whom Iraq is just an opportunity to get Bush, or here Howard, I can but agree with the survey reported (and dismissed by IVV), you do harm to our troops with a disgusting indifference.
I know that prior to your Presidential elections the point was made that nations such as we, who stood with you, were just corrupt nobodies, but the American people didnít vote for that point of view. And I know that this is your business, but I see in your Democrats ideology the extreme of self-importance and selfishness that they claim is the soul of the Republicans and those dreadful red states. I find the grab and run with any bizarre story detrimental to your troops and President, even though time and time again they prove to be false or hugely exaggerated, particularly gross. Each time the big lie becomes buried in the psyche of those who hate you, and yet again and again your media, and ours and the British, will shout before they check. So I have very little trust in the secret poll that shows that the Iraqis both wish harm on the troops and have no respect for them at all. When the correction is made it will be page 30 and too late to stop another yarn becoming a ìrealityî about the US and itís people.
To those who think they are on a winner with their attacks on their own, we may be of no importance to you but I will say. Australia has stepped up with you everytime. Desert the Iraqis now and you betray us and the British as well. I canít see us stepping up again.
Nov 29, 2005 - 4:22 pm 34. Rick Ballard:Not to fret, mate. There’ll be barracks for our allies in our bases at the new Desert Combat Training Center in al-Anbar and plenty of berthing space for Australian naval vessels at Um Qasr. We’re going to be fairly aggressive about permanent basing rights. When your fellows tire of shooting Taleban they can come over and shoot Baathists.
There is a suffiecency of Americans with memories as good as Ozlanders and the spine to see the battle through. One disgrace in a hundred years is more than enough.
Nov 29, 2005 - 5:11 pm 35. Joseph (formerly Samuel):RosOz
Desert the Iraqis now and you betray us and the British as well. I can?t see us stepping up again.
NO WAY! Bush is made of stronger stuff, however no promises after 2008. I believe Bush will do everything he can to make the policy not reversible. I would even further predict that the only way a Democrat will win the Presidency in 2008 is to run to the right of the Republican on Security issues.
The key question is will Republicans lose Congress? This would be the only way we could lose because like with Vietnam they could cut the War Funding. Even with that as long as Bush is breathing and President it won’t happen so we must hope that three years is enough to tighten things up enough for someone of lesser stuff to occupy the Presidency and continue on. I believe Bush understands this and will do exactly that. Besides by 2008 American will come to accept a permanent scaled down occupation patterned after other stabilizing post War occupations.
Nov 29, 2005 - 5:45 pm 36. exguru:Lieberman is not making it up. The war is over and we won.
Nov 29, 2005 - 7:33 pm 37. Steven Mitchell:RozOz, the other big difference this time is the time. In 1970, the Dems and their MSM allies hadn’t been in the process of systematically blowing their credibility for the previous 35 years. (For that matter, the MSM hadn’t spent 35 years being the overwhelming, defacto allies for one party, either.)
The cut and run crowd have a much weaker hand this time around–and much less restraint in overplaying it.
Oh, and I think Australian wine has permanently stolen some American market share from the French.
Nov 29, 2005 - 8:16 pm 38. Frederick:Roz Oz:
ìAustralia has stepped up with you every time.î
Yes. As the USA was with you in the dark days in 1942, when the Japanese bombed Darwin and the USS Yorktown and USS Lexington were there to fight with HMAS Australia in the Coral Sea. We havenít forgotten. And we know that there are friends and then there are friends.
ì… nations such as we, who stood with you, were just corrupt nobodies…î
Nobodies like all those people in ìthose dreadful red states.î
Samuel:
“For Democrats to win we all lose….”
Yes. The Democrats are evolving into the party of a national death wish. The real party slogan, which they dare not voice, is ìLetís kill America and replace it with something worthy of us.î The shapers of Democratic Party opinion are frivolous people who became accustomed, addicted perhaps, to structuring the world around their fantasies. Americaís great power and wealth made it possible for them to do that while ignoring the real world. 9/11 was a glimpse of reality and Bush, not Bin Laden, represents for them the face they saw. They still are in shock and ìBush is bad,î in its daily opinion and news versions, is the only thing they are able to say. Their stuff is all frivolous, if elaborate and mean-spirited. But weíve entered an era now when Iíd keep sell frivolity short. Whatís here is serious, itís going to last a long time, and we are only beginning to understand it. And, alas, I donít think weíve seen anything yet, compared with whatís to come. In such times, my money is not on frivolous people. Itís on serious, determined, confident people. People like the Islamists. I’d put my money on them if we didnít have something much stronger. My money is on the quiet people who exemplify the difference between self-respect and self-esteem, know the difference between a cartridge and a magazine, and mean it when they say ìGod bless America.î
Nov 29, 2005 - 9:08 pm 39. cubanbob:The Democrats, traitors in 1861, traitors in 1971,
traitors today. The tradition continues.
Nov 29, 2005 - 10:27 pm 40. Shochu John:“Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam,”
Hmmm, assuming Sen Joe’s data is accurate, 67% of Iraqis say they are better off now than under Saddam. 80% of Iraqis are not Sunni Arabs. So I would guess the most reasonable interpretation of this statistic that would mean that virtually all Sunni Arabs prefferred Saddam and somewhere around 16% of non Sunni Arabs preferred Saddam. Even if you also assume that the Sunni Turkmen, the Christians, and all the other assorted small minority groups are also all totally pro-Saddam, you still have to have a healthy chunk of Kurds or Shi’ites who are saying they are the same or better off as they were under Saddam. That’s pretty wild considering how Saddam treated both groups.
Anybody else have a different interpretation?
Nov 29, 2005 - 10:48 pm 41. klrfz1:S. John
That’s pretty wild.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177090,00.html
Nov 30, 2005 - 3:29 am 42. Sandy P:Via No Pasaran:
A £48m, five-star, 23-storey hotel rising in the city centre; an opulent palace complex being turned into a theme park; cheap flights to the picturesque “Venice of the east” – all the trappings of a country gearing up for a tourist boom.
Except the country in question is Iraq. With a new constitution and elections in the offing, officials insist there is a new beginning. The tourist board has 2,400 staff and 14 offices.
There has been a rise in the volume of travellers, with Iraqis either leaving or expatriates returning for visits. And there is also the continuous and steady number of foreigners, mainly contractors, coming in for the huge wages they can now command for working in such a risky environment.Ö
Another plan is to turn Saddam Hussein’s former palaces at his home town of Tikrit into a themed tourist destination. The complex, which contains 18 palaces and 118 other buildings, is surrounded by rolling gardens overlooking the Tigris.
Mohammed Abbas, a regional official, said: “Ordinary Iraqis were never allowed into these palaces. It will be an opportunity for them to see how their money was spent. International visitors will also be able to see the kind of lifestyle Saddam enjoyed.”
Nov 30, 2005 - 6:35 am 43. Sandy P:I should say it came from The Independent(!):
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article325277.ece
Nov 30, 2005 - 6:36 am 44. Sandy P:Sounds like the de facto stance of Americans to me, SJ.
Nov 30, 2005 - 6:37 am 45. dougf:Yo—- IVV
This one’s for YOU.
President George W Bush has said he will not accept “anything less than complete victory” in Iraq.
In a major speech, Mr Bush refused to set an “artificial deadline” to withdraw US troops, saying it was “not a plan for victory”.
Your analysis was as always ‘right-on-the-money’. Might I suggest that in the future you read less “Slate” ,and more “Belmont Club”?
Just trying to help.
Nov 30, 2005 - 8:43 am 46. Keith_Indy:For anyone that wants the straight skinny, here’s the link to the strategy paper…
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html
After reading the executive overview, I find nothing that hasn’t already been stated in one form or another. Most recently in SOS Rices speech, which was discussed broadly in the blogs.
If you’ve been paying attention, none of this (other than its presentation) is new.
Nov 30, 2005 - 9:26 am 47. Keith_Indy:For the other side of the story (as opposed to what PJM has linked to so far)
http://coolblue.typepad.com/the_cool_blue_blog/2005/11/democrats_get_o.html
Nov 30, 2005 - 10:45 am