32 Comments

1. LarryD:

The only reason the death penalty isn’t cheaper than life imprisionment is because of the activities (read lawsuits) of the anti-death-penalty activists. To cite this as an objection to the death penalty is, I believe, an instance of chutzpa.

Dec 1, 2005 - 2:57 pm 2. beautifulatrocities:

I don’t care whether it’s cheap or whether it deters crime. It’s justice. Tookie murdered four people, who unlike him, can no longer live, love, get laid, hope, write books, hobnob with Mike Farrell, & dream. Let him take his punishment. He’s had more life than he deserves.

Dec 1, 2005 - 3:06 pm 3. submandave:

On the “deterrence” topic, allow me to state the obvious that an execution always prevents at least one person from commiting a future murder. There are more than a handfull of inncent victims for whom this level of deterrence could have meant the difference between life and death.

That said, I recognize systemic problems in the awarding and administration of this most severe sanction. As such, I would support efforts to restrict its application (e.g. DNA and/or multiple witness requirements) if these restrictions were met with commisurate appeal limitations.

Dec 1, 2005 - 3:06 pm 4. Fresh Air:

The death penalty would be a deterrent if it were more frequently applied and if the endless appeals triggered by a death sentence in most states were curtailed. I suspect states with efficient execution chambers have fewer murders.

I know Singapore isn’t a model, but I bet people think twice before they drop gum on the subway platform.

Dec 1, 2005 - 3:07 pm 5. beautifulatrocities:

And frankly, I would rather be executed than endure prison visits from Bianca Jagger ;p

Dec 1, 2005 - 3:10 pm 6. promoguy:

As someone said, it will be a deterrant to Tookie, since he won’t be able to kill anyone any more including anybody in prison.

And as far as I’m concerned, your reference to Sadaam deserving it and not Tookie. I consider what Williams did in killing those parents and daughter is analogous to mass murder. Forget about the fact that he killed a fourth person.

If anybody deserves to die, this bastard does.

Dec 1, 2005 - 4:02 pm 7. promoguy:

PS. If anybody thinks he deserves pity, read this

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Dec 1, 2005 - 4:10 pm 8. lindenen:

As a co-founder of the Crips, Tookie’s also partly responsible for the large numbers of people they killed all these years. He has a lot of blood on his hands.

I’m so disgusted that they’re lying about the composition of the jury. I didn’t know till now that Tookie and his supporters were lying to the press for clemency. And, of course, the press lets him get away with it.

Dec 1, 2005 - 4:12 pm 9. ol' man:

Roger,

I must respectfully disagree about the death penalty being a deterrent. If the SOB who murdered my brother-in-law had been executed for his first or second murder, Rob would still be alive.

Dec 1, 2005 - 4:57 pm 10. MikeD:

The difference between Saddam Hussein and Tookie Williams is a matter of numbers alone. If you take the Crips gang into account the numbers gap narrows somewhat. Had Tookie and the Crips been in Baghdad (or Saddam and his “boys” been in LA) there would be no difference. I hear people say that the death penalty is not deterrent. I don’t believe that–not if the death penalty for “clearly guilty” (and that definition needs some refinement) persons were administered surely and systematically without the legal histrionics. But now it means virtually nothing to anyone comtemplating such an action–”someone may nomimate me for a Nobel Peace Prize and with the help of useful idiots I’ll beat the rap”. Under a clearly defined system we wouldn’t have to spend years in “philosophical appeals debate” or support and maintain them ad infinitum. Tookie Williams is clearly guilty and a despicable speciman. Save the taxpayers some money. Execute the murderous son-of-a-bitch! Should have been done 2 and a half years ago.

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:25 pm 11. thales27:

Rog, there are of course lies, damned lies, statistics and to add now there are also self serving surveys. I know that the insane murderers surveyed indicate that the penalty was not a deterrent: but how can one measure the slightly sane that stopped just short of a criminal act by the prospect of ending their lives and burdening the lives of family by the death penalty? Thales27

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:31 pm 12. RosOz:

Prime Minister Howard said today, there will be a lingering dislike in Australians for what the Singaporeans did.

He is right. We thought they were our friends, we really did want them not to kill one of ours and they were very rude to our Prime Minister and incredibly cruel to the young manís mother. Then killed him anyway. I will always wonder also if there was an element of racism in their policy and response on this occasion. A Vietnamese Australian, not much going for him with the Singaporean authorities.

And I donít know about the other chap, but yes this was a young man (22) who did do something inexcusable. But he had never been caught before so probably his criminal history wasnít that extensive. AND he was bringing the heroin to Australia. So whom were the Singaporeans protecting. Silly Australians who donít have the sense to do drug runners to death.

Some info on Singapore

More than 400 prisoners have been hanged since 1991 in Singapore

According to the UN Secretary-General’s quinquennial report on capital punishment (UN document: E/CN.15/2001/10, para. 68), for the period 1994 to 1999 Singapore had a rate of 13.57 executions per one million population, representing by far the highest rate of executions in the world.

Amnesty International,.. the death penalty often falls disproportionately and arbitrarily on the most marginalized or vulnerable members of society. Many of those executed have been migrant workers, drug addicts, the impoverished or those lacking in education.

Despite claims by the government that the death penalty has been effective in combatting the trade in illicit drugs, drug abuse continues to be a problem particularly among socially marginalized young people.

And while the claims that Singapore has no problem doing business with the drug lords of Burma may be untrue today, they do not do anything about Burma or the generals supported by the drug trade, choosing rather to kill the little fish.

DR SEAN TURNELL, BURMA ECONOMIC WATCH: Singapore’s banks, in conjunction with some other overseas banks, help the Burmese Government evade US sanctions.

DR SEAN TURNELL: Where the Singapore banks are rumoured to come in is to allow the Burmese regime and the drugs traffickers in Burma to earn other than US dollars – to convert US dollar earnings into other currencies – and in so, doing avert some of the sanctions imposed by the US.

DR SEAN TURNELL: The extent to which Singapore’s financial sector could do that without the knowledge of the Singapore Government I think is very remote.

DR SEAN TURNELL: There’s no direct evidence linking Singapore investments to the narcotics trade, but there is substantial Singaporean investment in real estate, in hotels, in tourism and other areas of Burma’s economy, which don’t seem to make sense on economic grounds.

Or

Despite the pariah status of the military junta-controlled country as a flagrant breacher of human rights and the engine-room of the notorious opium golden triangle, Singapore has long been one of its key trading partners.

In the 10 months to October, (2005) Singapore – Burma’s second-biggest source of imports – shipped more than $650 million of goods to the country

And for more than a decade, the Singapore government has shrugged off evidence that some of its business backing has gone directly to Burma’s drug kingpins, specifically infamous heroin trafficker Lo Hsing Han.

And where does a large proportion of Burmaís heroin end up, Australia. Hard not to be pissed.

Want to be very sure of why you are doing it if you execute people. Unfortunately it seems the Singaporeans were, and it is hard to respect their claims that they are about protecting people, Australians included.

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:38 pm 13. promoguy:

Even though it is the law of Singapore, I’m not sure I would support the death penalty for the use or transportation of drugs. But for the capital offense of murder, damn straight.

I will say tho’ that drugs doesn’t seem to be a problem in Singapore.

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:50 pm 14. Pat Curley:

If the Governator were to commute Tookie’s sentence to life, would it end there? Or would the bleeding hearts then take up the “Free Tookie” banner?

We had a guy here in Arizona who displayed the classic symptoms of a serial killer–started out with cats and dogs. When he was 17 he killed his best friend’s mom, and had sex with the corpse. Fortunately, he wasn’t sophisticated enough to get away with it yet. Sentenced to death, he got off with everybody else when the death penalty was declared unconstitutional. And sure enough, by about 30 years later, he was a trusty, getting out on weekends. Parole came up and the board voted to grant it. But then the victim’s son complained to the newspapers that he hadn’t been contacted by the parole board, as is required under Arizona’s victims’ rights law.

So they had to have another hearing, where the son emphatically requested that the guy not be given parole. But the parole board still voted 2-1 (the prior vote had been 3-0) to grant parole.

And then a funny thing happened. Because of all the news about the parole board’s decision, a clerk at a local gun store recognized the convict, who had attempted to purchase a weapon, but stopped when he realized he’d have to submit Brady Bill paperwork. It turned out that the attempted purchase came the day that the son’s complaint about not being notified of the parole board hearing appeared in the newspapers, so his motivation for acquiring a weapon was at least suspicious.

Third parole board hearing now on the weapons violation. Guy claims he was just buying it for his wife’s (he’d gotten married while in prison) son whose birthday was coming up. Believe it or not, the parole board vote this time is 1-2, with one of the parole board members still voting to let the guy out. Fortunately he was overruled.

No, thank you. Capital punishment may not be a deterrent. But it sure keeps idiot parole boards from turning loose monsters.

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:51 pm 15. Luther McLeod:

Is is really vengeance or simply justice? And in cases such as this, what exactly is wrong with society extracting a certain amount of vengeance? Is it too close to our tribal beginnings? Too biblical? Too beneath our moralistic selves? I’m really asking. I admit to misgivings about the death penalty, I admit that there is room in the process for improvement. But, in the end, I see no reason for this particular individual to remain alive. Some people are just evil. Considering his record of violence while in prison (thanks for the link, promoguy), he will kill again.

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:54 pm 16. Rick Ballard:

“capital punishment has never proven itself as a deterrent”

Sure it has. (PDF) best available data shows that each execution saves an average of 18 lives. The study is studiously ignored by those who do not wish to acknowledge it but it has not been refuted.

Conventional wisdom is so… conventional. And, of course, facts that don’t fit the agreed upon template tend to remain nicely hidden from view. You’ll never see that study cited by the MSM.

Dec 1, 2005 - 5:59 pm 17. RosOz:

No human system can be absolutely safe; therefore it is a fact that the innocent will be executed. Nevertheless different cultures have different perspectives and so to believe that capital punishment saves lives is not an immoral position. Hence while opposed to capital punishment, it is nevertheless one of those actions that do harm to people in the name of the common good, some of which I would support.

But killing a young man for carrying drugs makes me choke. At 22 it may be that he was not able to adequately work through the cost to others of his action. I would be confident that while he had the intent to smuggle heroin he did not have the intent to kill another human being. Yet they put him to death. Which they will do for say 15 grams of cannabis, or even better, to a person who has a key to a place in which there is 15 g of cannabis. I donít know how many uni students we would have left if we did them in for sharing a flat with a cannabis user as well as using themselves. Here 30 g is average for states for upper limit for personal use. And he was taking the drugs to Australia. In theory what harm had he done to Singapore, none.

And then they do business with the big and very bad guys. Yuk.

Is a serial killer sane? When you agree to capital punishment where do you draw the line.

To remove Saddam as a draw card makes sense, other than what could he do now if he was released. Zaqarwi or the other top Baathists aren’t going to hand over power. They might even kill him. And anyway when you are dead you can’t suffer.

Dec 1, 2005 - 6:23 pm 18. PJ:

Assuming for the sake of argument that Tookie has changed for the better, is that a reason enough to pardon him?

AFter I saw Dead Man Walking again, I wrote that I have come to believe that the worth of a life is measured in something beyond number of years.

http://moviesandmore.typepad.com/gaze_theory/2005/03/take_two_dead_m.html

Dec 1, 2005 - 6:29 pm 19. beautifulatrocities:

Presumably the Aussie knew the draconian laws in Singapore, & risked it anyway. Not too brite

Dec 1, 2005 - 7:44 pm 20. Stephen_M:

Not a deterrent? Roger, you live surrounded by Hollywood backstabbers and deal breakers. Look around. Careers ruined and egos crushed for petty spite. Millions (millions!) lost and stolen. People have died for much, much less. And that town is packed with emotionally volitile types.Count the corpses not fallen because folks wanted to avoid Tookie’s current fate. Yeah, you can’t see them so you can’t really count them.But any man with a healthy imagination can’t really deny them.

Dec 1, 2005 - 10:45 pm 21. Ursus:

Roger,

The problem with deciding that we are above the death penalty is that we end up deciding that we are really above it. Look at Europe, they can’t even bring themselves to execute Milosevic (and refuse to endorse such for Saddam) becasue they are above such things.

So, obviously there is a line, somewhere. Genocidal tyrants should die, we agree. Timothy McVay and mass murderers in general, sure. The BTK killer certainly needs to die. Now we are down to a dozen or so deaths, shall we go to four? How about a single murder with extreme depravity?

The best thing about our system is that it is democratically decided, because he people (the victim-pool) get to say where that line is drawn, on a case by case basis, because death penalty is currently a jury verdict only.

Either you trust the people to decide that they want someone removed from society, or you turn it over to a tyrant to decide for you. Do you really want the latter?

Dec 1, 2005 - 11:46 pm 22. RosOz:

Roger

The drug smuggler has been hanged.

Nguyen Tuong Van has been hanged please.

Our PM and Foreign Minister were seriously disturbed by the killing of this young man.

He was 22 when he committed this crime.

Whether we wanted to or not Australians now know Van, he can no longer be the “drug smuggler” for us, or for our PM and government. We know he is a criminal and a flawed human being, but for us only monsters should ever be considered for execution. Or dehumanised to “drug smuggler”

Australia is very upset.

And I now know too much about Singapore and it’s tyrants to forgive them for this.

Dec 2, 2005 - 1:41 am 23. Pat Curley:

Regarding the Singapore case, let’s look at the deterrent effect there. Do you think anybody in Australia is thinking of importing drugs into Singapore? Gee, seems to be working.

Dec 2, 2005 - 7:49 am 24. LarryD:

On deterrence:

1) Some people will not be deterred. Hence no deterrence will be perfect.

2) A big factor in the deterrent effect of any punishment, is time, the less time between the commission of the crime and the imposition of the punishment, the more deterrent effect the punishment has. So the length of both trial and the appeals process erode any deterrent effect.

3) The probability of being caught is also a factor.

Dec 2, 2005 - 8:40 am 25. Coisty:

Ursus – Look at Europe, they can’t even bring themselves to execute Milosevic

Milosevic may be a bad guy but he hasn’t been convicted of anything. The Hague war crimes tribunal is a complete farce. If Milosevic should be tried anywhere it is Serbia for his many crimes against his own people, including selling out the Serbs of Krajina, Bosnia, and Kosovo. That he’s actually being tried by the “international community” for actions against (mostly Muslim) terrorists tells you all you need to know about the “international community”.

As to Singapore, a place I’ve had the pleasure of visiting, their laws may be tough but having spent my life living in the squeamish UK and Canada where few criminals end up in prison I’d be happy to trade justice systems with them. Although I disagree with executing drug dealers I believe in national sovereignty. Singapore is an ethnically divided country with no natural resources yet they’ve created a stable rich and safe society. If Aussies had it their way Singapore would be a crime-ridden multiculti country just like Oz or Canada. If Aussies don’t like Singapore’s laws they shouldn’t go there. Multiculti Aussies have been whingeing for decades that the nation is too close to Britain and the USA and that they should stop being so Euro-centric and embrace Asia. Now the same lefties are crying about Asian justice being too harsh by Euro-Australian standards!

Dec 2, 2005 - 9:00 am 26. J:

“capital punishment has never proven itself as a deterrent.”

Not to pile on here, but the recidivism rate for criminals who have been executed is very, very low

Dec 2, 2005 - 12:20 pm 27. JenLArt:

Here, here, Coisty!

Note that Singapore doesn’t have a drug problem, as harsh as their laws are in this case.

That young Ozzie smuggler knew what the law was (Singapore is known around the world for their strict criminal penalties by now) and got caught breaking it.

It is absolutely essential that Tookie Williams keep his date with the executioner, not only because he was found guilty of 4 murders by a jury of his peers but his case has had numerous judicial reviews.

For him to claim that he didn’t receive justice because he’s black is outrageous.

His execution will most certainly be a deterrent to the thousands (millions?) of Crips members (as well as Bloods), who have committed God-knows-how-many murders.

If young black men see that “Tookie goes free,” get ready for America to start looking like France where they did away with the death penalty, softened their other criminal penalties and their enforcement and get away with rioting, looting and murder because they’re “not white” and “poor,” although I wouldn’t call people with cell phones, computers and TVs poor.

The crime rate in countries like France and the UK where they’ve done away with the death penalty for serious crimes have skyrocketing crime rates and amoral urban youths cruising for victims and trouble without any fear of the “long arm of the law” interfering.

Dec 2, 2005 - 2:58 pm 28. brotherchuck:

guilty as charged…

Dec 2, 2005 - 8:10 pm 29. Pierre Legrand:

Sorry Roger but having been involved in 2 cases involving murder where I was instrumental in putting the perps behind bars there is another reason that the Death Penalty is useful. It prevents me from having to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life. Admittedly life without the possibility of parole could accomplish the same thing but alas that never happens.

The sentence of life without parole is a joke. The perps almost always have a delightful sob story that convinces a bunch of slobs who are not threatened by the lout, to release him. Please release me let me go…and I won’t murder anymore…sorry drinking some fine Cab and got a little carried away.

And as has been pointed out, being put to death sure enough deters that murderer from ever murdering again. Some might say that well we have put innocents to death. I have never seen proof of that statement but against those numbers I will put the numbers of innocents murdered by those we let out of prison.

Pierre Legrand

Dec 2, 2005 - 8:53 pm 30. KarenT:

I am commenting here on three reasons Dennis Prager gives for the death penalty (for heinous murder only):

1. The death penalty makes plain the supreme value the society places on the life of the innocent victim(s). If the victim’s life is not worth the perpetrator’s life, what is its value?

Although a correlation with the abolition of the death penalty may be indirect, I think that several European countries have become less moral as a result of the loss of emphasis on the value of innocent human life. When all those elderly people died in the heat wave a couple of years ago, the French did not seem to get as upset as Americans would have if it had happened here. The emphasis seemed to be on “fixing the system” so it didn’t happen again. Similarly, where a sense of the importance of justice for the innocent victim is gone, “fixing” murderers through rehabilitation seems to be the focus. Sometimes they are mistaken when they think a murderer is “cured”. Prison time for violent but non-lethal assault seems to be minimal in some of these countries, too.

2. The death penalty often prevents further pain for devastated family and friends of the victim. And it prevents murderers from becoming “stars” in prison.

My husband works at the prison where Charles Manson is kept in “administrative segregation”. He still gets some prison employees to obey his orders (I don’t know why). At least one lost his job for smuggling articles signed by Manson out of the prison for sale to his fans. People send him considerable amounts of money. His prison account is reportedly the biggest one at the institution. Members of his “family” who have been released from prison themselves still make the news sometimes with publicity stunts in his support. He is reported to have inspired a website where you can buy the music he has written in prison, T-shirts, etc. The shirts were quite popular with young teens a few years back. Don’t know if they still are. But I don’t think he makes the best role model.

Fortunately, his demands for obedience don’t seem to go over too well with parole boards.

3. The death penalty helps avoid some harrowing trials and helps to solve crimes. Many murderers plead guilty in deals to avoid the death penalty, sparing families and friends of the victim a great deal of pain.

And Ted Bundy admitted his crimes and revealed details of many of them (including murders with which he had not been charged) only when his execution was imminent. This allowed closure for his mother, who had believed in his innocence all those years, and for many families whose daughters had disappeared.

Back to the “star” theme, I was personally relieved when Ted Bundy was executed. I lived in Salt Lake City when he was murdering there, and I sort of fit the victim profile. It was a terrifying feeling. And my uncle was contacted by the FBI soon after Bundy was tentatively identified as the murderer. They sent agents on an outing which Bundy attended, for which my uncle was responsible. I learned about this only after Bundy’s conviction, but it brought the possibility of becoming another of his victims closer to home.

Bundy became popular with staff and inmates while in jail and prison. He escaped from jail in Colorado and viciously murdered several more women and girls. He received love letters from women all over the country. He got married during his trial in Florida and fathered a child while on death row. I am personally glad that women are no longer swooning over him. And I suspect that the families of his many victims are also glad that they don’t have to hear more stories of women falling in love with the dashing Mr. Bundy.

Dec 2, 2005 - 11:04 pm 31. gumshoe:

“…capital punishment has never proven itself as a deterrent.”

“UPDATE: The drug smuggler has been hanged.”

i dunno,Roj.

you gonna be toting

several keys of fine lebanese hash into Singapore

anytime soon?

Dec 4, 2005 - 4:34 pm 32. Cobb:

Capital punishment *is* a deterrent to trigger happy cops and lynch mobs. So long as the justice system is ready, willing and able to execute the worst criminals, we won’t have to worry about civilians doing it themselves.

Dec 4, 2005 - 9:39 pm

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