16 Comments

1. Robert Crawford:

Don’t you just love modern journalism:

Historians say six million Jews were killed in the Nazi Holocaust.

Can’t just state it as fact. Gotta make it a he-said-she-said.

Dec 8, 2005 - 10:01 am 2. David Thomson:

ì…that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail..î

Even a fool sometimes makes a valid point. The lack of First Amendment rights in Europe and Great Britain may doom these once great nations to extinction. David Irving is a disgusting person—but he should not be spending even one minute of his life in an Austrian jail for his beliefs. The same holds true for Bernard Lewisí troubles with the French authorities and Deborah Lipstadtís disturbing ordeal in Great Britain. Ultimately, only the nihilists who desire to destroy Western Civilization benefit from these unjust and absurd measures.

Dec 8, 2005 - 10:10 am 3. Piglet:

ì…that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail..î

As opposed to his own country where they just publicly whip/maim/execute the person.

Dec 8, 2005 - 10:28 am 4. Jeffrey -- New York:

Roger,

Sorry, this is OT, but worth mentioning, I thought.

Fayrouz (Iraqi in America) has just posted an interview with Lisa Ramaci, blogger and journalist STEVEN VINCENT’S widow.

I recall that you linked to several of his fine dispatches from Iraq. The interview is definitely worth linking to.

Interviewing Lisa Ramaci

*

Dec 8, 2005 - 10:42 am 5. mikem:

Iran’s President Ahmadinejad is an anti-Semite. That is apparent regardless of the professed “reasonableness” of his arguments. But he raises a question that I have not seen debated. Just how did Germany, Austria and even France get away with shifting the righteous consequences of their crimes onto the Middle East where already decimated Jewish populations were sure to be even more unwelcome?

Israel now exists as the Jewish homeland and I am foursquare behind the US protecting her. It is the right thing to do. But in his hate Ahmadinejad stumbles upon a question worthy of a historians curiosity.

I’m guessing that the CW is that European Jews desired a homeland away from their recent tormentors but I’m sure that in an Arab’s eyes that does not excuse their giving up territory for European crime.

Dec 8, 2005 - 11:55 am 6. Otter:

mikem:

Israel isn’t in some arbitrarily chosen location. It’s the ancestral Jewish homeland, and the place that has always had a Jewish presence and has always been the center of Jewish identity. Even modern Zionism predates the Holocaust by nearly a century, and the Balfour Declaration was before WWII.

On the contrary, the idea that Holocaust = Israel is dangerous precisely because Ahmadinejad’s argument would have validity if thatt were true.

Back to the original point: I don’t get Ahmadinejad’s strategy. He’s going to have nukes within two years, at which point no one will be able to say or do anything to Iran. Why not keep his mouth shut until then and not rock the boat? I don’t get what his plan is.

Dec 8, 2005 - 12:55 pm 7. mikem:

“Israel isn’t in some arbitrarily chosen location.”

I’m aware of that, Otter. But it is likewise the biblical homeland of Christians and certainly Jerusalem is a holy city to Moslems even if not on a par with Mecca or Medina. All three major religions have a biblical claim to Israeli land.

“Holocaust = Israel is dangerous”: To me it is a rather obvious historical fact. I don’t know a single person, Jewish or not, who does not see Israel as the world’s attempt to provide a “safe” haven for Jews following the Holocaust. Iran does not need a legitimate gripe to hate Israel. Israel is a Jewish state. That is enough for most Moslems, let alone Iranians. American and Israeli power are all that stands between Israel and her seemingly eternal enemies. Asking obvious questions will not change that and America will never abandon Israel.

Dec 8, 2005 - 1:33 pm 8. Plainslow:

Since he’s in such a giving mood, the Kurds would like thier home.

Dec 8, 2005 - 1:46 pm 9. beautifulatrocities:

Amazing, Ahmadinejad agrees with Tony Kushner, who said “I think the founding of the State of Israel was for the Jewish people a historical, moral, political calamity…. I wish modern Israel hadn’t been born.”

Dec 8, 2005 - 2:31 pm 10. Kevin P:

Roger:

It is amusing that the far left of the west and the Radical Muslim world can agree on only two topics, Israel must go and America is evil. The only thing that Kushner forgets is that when they have rid the world of Israel, Gay westerners will be next on the list, especially artists who like to tweak religion and who want to challange the worlds traditional attitude towards homosexuality.

Dec 8, 2005 - 3:27 pm 11. Bostonian:

Speaking of Israel, there’s a fact that usually gets left out of these discussions, but it is central (IMO).

Starting around 1890, European Jews began buying land in the area we now call Israel. They bought this land from the Ottomans, who owned it at the time.

The Arabs who were living there did not have title, by and large.

I learned this from Edward Said, of all people.

Dec 8, 2005 - 4:04 pm 12. Silicon valley Jim:

But since he’s not making a movie about the Holocaust, nobody at the David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies is complaining. Those folks sure have their priorities straight

Dec 8, 2005 - 4:47 pm 13. PeterUK:

What have the Jews and the Arabs got to do with the Persians,why let President Ahmadinejad arrogate to himself a speaking point on the subject?

We have inexplicably allowed the concept of a monolithic pan Arabic Muslim entity to hijack our view of the Middle East.

This permits any Muslim anywhere the right of grievance and the right to redress that grievance by violent means.

Dec 8, 2005 - 5:53 pm 14. David Thomson:

ìStarting around 1890, European Jews began buying land in the area we now call Israel. They bought this land from the Ottomans, who owned it at the time.

The Arabs who were living there did not have title, by and large.î

I consider this to be the strongest argument in favor of Israel. The Jews paid for the land and owe nobody anything. Regrettably, too many of the immigrating European Jews were radical socialists and easily persuaded that they represented colonialist oppression. They foolishly believed that all property is stolen. Everybody is either a victim or a victimizer.

If we were to reject the property rights of the Israelis—then no title of ownership is secure anywhere in the world. Why do I seem to be about the only one to point this out? This is so absurd.

Dec 9, 2005 - 4:31 am 15. Mike_Nargizian:

As if Schindler’s List is a real emblem of what happened and not more of an emotional picnic or carnival. I saw the Grey Zone and for the first time in my life, sad to say, I understood more closely how it actually happened, prior I really didn’t. I spoke to a friend and he said even the Grey Zone is a picnic compared to what really happened. A person’s conscience can not and does not want to grasp the depravity and depths of souless evil hell that the Holocaust was nor that it was regular average people…. most Europeans even today believe “oh it was horrible what happened to the Jews (even if they are Jews) in my opinion.

The other day a friend of mine, a Greek lady, said to me after I told her she is a little prejudice, (who isn’t btw) oh I think it’s horrible what they did to the Jews… as if that qualified her as not being prejudice – because she said ‘don’t you know a lot of people think it was good what happened’….

Kind of like the Chris Rock Joke -

“I’m a good dad I feed my kids”

or

“I’m a good husband I don’t beat my wife”

Dec 10, 2005 - 12:20 am 16. EOV Victor:

The remarks made by the President of Iran may be most offensive. However, the remark is not at all inaccurate, regardless of the President’s intent whether it be good or otherwise. For there is one thing that cannot be dissuaded by anything. It does not follow and listen to human opinion. It will not answer to any of us. It is a force in itself that knows what it is, both its beginning and its endlessness. There is a big picture that has been mounted ages ago. The matter on The Holocaust cannot be judged by our mere knowledge alone. Not by our eyes alone. Not by what we can comprehend by being just humans. The killing of the Jews, six million or more, is most horrific. Yet there are things in our world that cannot be handled to be understood by our mere hands.

Dec 18, 2005 - 2:33 am

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