168 Comments

1. Rick Ballard:

Congratulations to Pajamas and especially to their Iraqi correspondent team for providing an insider view of this historic election.

Even greater congratulations to the Iraqi people who are participating in an election which will set the course for their country for many years to come.

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:13 am 2. Mike_Nargizian:

MUSLIM BRO’HOOD ISRAEL A CANCER WILL BE DESTROYED

DAILY SCORECARD REPORTS

the leader of Egypt’s Muslim Brothers said in an interview published Thursday. “I declared that we will not recognize Israel which is an alien entity in the region. And we expect the demise of this cancer soon…,” Mohammed Mehdi Akef told the state-owned English language Ahram Weekly.

DELUDED LEFT WING JEW ASKS IN COMMENTS SECTION TO SANDMONKEY (blogger)

As a jew living in hick-town Canada, I would really love to know the extent of jew-bashing in the Arab/Iranian world…. or do the people themselves really believe this pro-nazi garbage?

Its kinda funny, because when Politicians in Alabama are asked the same tough questions, they give a simular response except replace the word “jew” with “gay”.

What do you think SM, is there a alot of Jew Bashing in Egypt or is it just an obvious Red Herring?

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:39 am 3. Mike Driehorst:

I am very surprised that PJMedia would have a blog that seems to rip on Iraqis in a spoof of being Al-Zarqawi (http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2005/12/zarkman_live.html).

It seems very juvenile to me (former journalist, now in public relations), and very much tears at the credibility of Open Source Media.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:02 am 4. Alexandra von Maltzan:

All Things Beautiful TrackBack ‘Iraq’s Purple Finger Of Democracy’:

“Today belongs to the people of Iraq, and we wish them both a speedy and successful path to the freedom of democracy…..Roger Simon keeps us updated and abreast with Pajamas Media…

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:11 am 5. Charlie (Colorado):

Congratulations, Mike Driehorst, you’re won!

Please email to collect your prize.

Make the subject line “Clueless, humorless git”.

The prize, by the way, is a plaque bearing the dictionary definition of “satire”.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:17 am 6. Stephen_M:

BREAKING: Rush Limbaugh reports that exit polls in Iraq show 80% of Iraqis want John McCain to resign. 98.4% don’t know who Harry Reid is. Parody. Of course. Right?

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:26 am 7. In Vino Veritas:

In all sincerity, this is a great day for Iraqis. They are taking the first step to reclaiming their lives.

Anway, it seems like they are good to go. Can we leave now?

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:30 am 8. David Thomson:

ìDELUDED LEFT WING JEW ASKS IN COMMENTS SECTION TO SANDMONKEY (blogger)î

Some cynic once pointed out that itís ridiculously easy to guilt trip a Jew. This seems especially true of those brought up to be left-wing socialists. They are susceptible to the con job that Israel is a fascist nation victimizing the normally darker skinned Palestinians. A white European Jew is supposedly always in the wrong. Radical Islamists are playing these well meaning fools like a violin.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:39 am 9. monkyboy:

Actually, the biggest losers are here:

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/list.php

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:48 am 10. Pamela aka "Atlas":

Do the Iraqi thang and vote for truth, freedom and the American Way (heh)Throw on a purple tie, some lavender eyeshadow, and dip your finger in the purple dye………..see ya at the concession speech………..VOTE HERE, VOTE NOW!  VOTE ATLAS!  Hit it!

Go over to the BEST MIDDLE EAST BLOG  and vote for Regime Change Iran. It is incumbent upon us to bring as much light and attention to IRAN, now. 

My favorite soldier over at   365 and a Wakeup deserves your vote for Best Military Blog. Saving all of our respective asses. 

Best Photo Blog: You must vote for Zombie Time, I wonder if Zombie Time knows how many eyes were opened by that site’s photos, go over there and see for yourself.

Best Business Blog: The finest mind on economy and money money money. Vote BizzyBlog

Why should you take the trouble to vote? I am glad you asked. These bloggers (myself included) work pretty damn hard, make little to no money, and do it just to get you the information you won’t get elsewhere. One vote ain’t asking for much. C’mon. 

and do not forget my blog sugar daddy (make that Splenda, there aint no sugah!) Charles at LGF Best Blog evuh!

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:51 am 11. Pamela aka "Atlas":

WHAT IT IS, WHAT IT SHALL BE

Prime Minister Ibrahim Al-Jaafari: “Ballot Boxes Are A Victory Of Democracy Over Dictatorship.” (Alastair Macdonald And Luke Baker, “Big Turnout In Iraq Election Despite Scattered Attacks,” Reuters, 12/15/05)

Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad: “I Have Been To The Old City Of Babylon, As Well As To Baghdad. I’m Going To One Or Two More After This Show. And I’m Getting Reports From Across Iraq. And I Have To Tell You That The Reports Are Very Positive. Turnout Has Been Heavy So Far. In Some Places, People Have Come To The Voting Center With Their Families, Almost Like Going To A Wedding. And The Reports Of Security Incidents And Irregularities Have Been Very Few. So It Has Been A Good Day So Far.” (CNN’s “American Morning,” 12/15/05)

U.N. Envoy Ashraf Qazi: “All In All It Is A Historic Day And A Good Day.” “Elections for Iraq’s first full-term parliament since the fall of Saddam Hussein appear to have been successful, the U.N. envoy to Iraq said on Thursday. ‘Anecdotal evidence shows that there has been a good turnout, that it was inclusive and that security was well maintained,’ Ashraf Qazi told Reuters just before most polling stations closed at 5 p.m. ‘These are good measures of success,’ he said. Qazi, the special representative of U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, said it was still too early to make a definitive judgment on the polls but initial signs were good. ‘All in all it is a historic day and a good day,’ he said.” (Paul Tait, “U.N. Envoy Says Iraq Election Appears Successful,” Reuters, 12/15/05)

Reuters: “The Demand To Vote Was So Strong That Polling Stations Were Kept Open For An Extra Hour In Some Areas To Allow Those Lining Up Outside To Cast Their Ballots.” (Alastair Macdonald And Luke Baker, “Big Turnout In Iraq Election Despite Scattered Attacks,” Reuters, 12/15/05)

In Ramadi, CNN’s Nic Robertson Reports “An Atmosphere Of Celebration.” ROBERTSON: “The polling station that I can see just down across the road there, one person voted there two months ago in the referendum in October. This time we understand over 100 people have voted. In the west of the city, many hundreds have turned out to vote. We’re being told when they get to the polling stations, there’s sort of an atmosphere of celebration, people handing out candies, very much like for the rest the country when they went to the polls in big numbers back in January.” (CNN’s “American Morning,” 12/15/05)

In Baghdad, CNN’s Aneesh Raman Reports That “Turnout Has Been High.” RAMAN: “Throughout Baghdad it seems turnout has been high, and more specifically, in the Sunni areas. In Dora (ph) neighborhood, for example, high turnout. Sunni turnout always seen as a key element to these elections. It was in October, more so now, because if they can be brought onboard and if they do feel that this political process can work for them, it could mean a curbing in the violence and perhaps an end to the domestic insurgents. So overall, it seems turnout has been high throughout the country.” (CNN’s “American Morning,” 12/15/05)

In Najaf, Knight Ridder’s Leila Fadel Says Iraqis “Feel Like They’re Finally Taking Hold Of The Government” That They Have Been Excluded From. FADEL: “Yes, it’s a huge moment. And you feel it down here, especially because they suffered so much during 1991 through the uprising. And everybody that I have spoken to, save three people, plan to vote for the United Iraqi Coalition, which is the Shia religious coalition of the political parties. They feel a sense of ownership. They feel like they’re finally taking hold of the government that has sort of excluded them for 35 years. Really, everybody is calling it a celebration. Let’s get ready to go to the wedding. That’s what I’m hearing over and over again.” (CNN’s “American Morning,” 12/15/05)

Fallujah’s Mayor: “Right Now The City Is Experiencing A Democratic Celebration.” “‘Right now the city is experiencing a democratic celebration,’ Mayor Dari Abdul Hadi Zubaie said in Fallujah, where voters streamed to the polls. ‘It’s an election wedding.’” (Ellen Knickmeyer And Jonathan Finer, “A Lack Of Violence As Iraqis Vote To Choose New Government,” The Washington Post, 12/15/05)

“‘This Is The Day To Get Our Revenge From Saddam,’ Said Kurdish Voter Chiman Saleh, A Kirkuk Housewife Who Said Two Of Her Brothers Were Killed By The Ousted Regime.” (Bassem Mroue, “Heavy Turnout Reported In Iraqi Election,” The Associated Press, 12/15/05)

“In Kirkuk, 60-Year-Old Sunni Arab Asmael Nouri Said: ‘It Is The First Time I Have Tasted The Freedom To Express My View.’” (Alastair Macdonald And Luke Baker, “Big Turnout In Iraq Election Despite Scattered Attacks,” Reuters, 12/15/05)

“We Are Going To Practice One Of Our Natural Rights.” “Voters seemed eager to cast their ballots. ‘We are going to practice one of our natural rights,’ said Mutasm Ali, 49, as he and his wife strolled along a deserted Baghdad thoroughfare. With a new government, the accountant said Iraq can ‘wish one day to be better than the United States.’” (Steven Komarow, “Streets Mostly Calm As Iraqis Head To Polls,” USA Today, 12/15/05)

“I Am Proud As An Iraqi…” “‘I am proud as an Iraqi because our country is becoming a center of attraction for all Arab countries,’ said Mohammad Wadi, a 50-year-old Shiite schoolteacher casting his ballot in the capital’s Karada district. He added, ‘The new situation in Iraq, the democratic system, is starting to put pressure on the Arab systems to make some changes toward democracy.’” (Borzou Daragahi, “Large And Largely Peaceful Iraqi Voter Turnout Today,” Los Angeles Times, 12/15/05)

“Now, Iraqis Have Begun To Realize That The Peaceful Way Is Better Than Violence To Get Their Demands.” “‘I didn’t vote in January because at the time the political realities were not clear,’ said Abdul Samariyee, 65, a retired tax collector in Baghdad’s Qadasiya district, where police were spotted driving a pregnant woman to the polling station. ‘Now, Iraqis have begun to realize that the peaceful way is better than violence to get their demands.’” (Borzou Daragahi, “Large And Largely Peaceful Iraqi Voter Turnout Today,” Los Angeles Times, 12/15/05)

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:52 am 12. Pamela aka "Atlas":

Ok Roger, I’ll shut up now………

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:53 am 13. Bostonian:

In Vino:

“Anway, it seems like they are good to go. Can we leave now?”

What an *INCREDIBLY* irresponsible idea.

How about we wait until the authorities ask us to leave? After all, the number one concern of the Iraqis is national security, and there is a war going on, in case you didn’t notice.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:05 am 14. dougf:

former journalist–Mike Driehorst

Based upon your ‘analysis’ posted here and aptly reviewed by Charlie, I am guessing that it is virtually impossible to extract that ‘journalist’ thingy short of major surgery.

Thanks to PM for organising the stories from Iraqi bloggers. I hope they will follow up with additional comments on the post-election happenings in their areas.

More please.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:08 am 15. Dan:

Congratulations, Mike Driehorst, you’re won!

I think he’s absolutely correst, unless PJM only wants to address other bloggers. Extremely poor editorial decision having that link as it was.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:39 am 16. Paul:

Vino:

“Anway, it seems like they are good to go. Can we leave now?”

So they can waste all their gains and render all the blood and toil for naught as the country spirals down into chaos?

So the left can finally feel vindicated?

So you treasonous scum can defeat America and Bush?

So you can thump your chests and proclaim your “speaking truth to power” has ended another “unwinnable” and “immoral” war, while people on the other side of the world die like flies and America sinks deeper into the legacy of shame you bastards have designed for it?

You people are revolting.

Here’s to the bright hope that Iraq’s entry into the order of free nations at the hands of the American military, led by the clear vision and firm resolve of President George W. Bush, puts a stake through the heart of the America hating cancer that is the American left.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:41 am 17. Pamela aka "Atlas":

Fox! Bush with Iraqi citizens that just voted….in the White house…..

I love days like today

savor it, because the MSM is forced to cover it but it will all but disappear tomorrow

remember the dancing Iraqis……I love those dancing Iraqis

you never see the dancing Iraqis

I cried during Rumsfeld speech….great great hope

GEORGE W!

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:00 am 18. Shochu John:

Roger says,

“BIG LOSERS of the day so far: Howard Dean, Jack Murtha, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the rest of the reactionary, fuddy-duddy leadership of the Democratic Party”

Fascinating. Did any of the above people suggest that the elections would not come off relatively well? I certainly didn’t hear it. The issue here is that not that it is not possible to popularly elect a government in Iraq, but whether or not it is possible to reach a point in which that government is actually capable of ruling the country. As far as I’ve heard, the likes of Dean and Murtha make the case that we are not actually bringing the Iraqi government to a point that it can exercise sovereignty over itself and the people it purports to rule. You cannot say that someome is a “big loser of the day” because events serve to undermine an argument that that person has not actually made.

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:03 am 19. In Vino Veritas:

We will spend close to half a trillion dollars on this exercise and two thousand of our best citizens. Today, Iraq is on its way to becoming a democracy. Isn’t that what all the treasure and blood was spent to achieve? Do we even have to mention the fact that Iraq will never truly be a democracy until foreign troops leave her.

Well, the job is done. Mission Accomplished!

The boys there have done their job; bring them home. If not now, then when?

puts a stake through the heart of the America hating cancer that is the American left.

Wow, that’s all this is about for you, eh? I guess it would have been a bonus if, you know, 2000 of our troops hadn’t died to achieve this goal, but, hey, eggs, omelette, etc.

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:04 am 20. monkyboy:

From the AP article linked to above:

Many others who turned out in Fallujah, which was overrun by U.S. forces in November 2004, saw the election as a way to get rid of the Americans and the Shiite-dominated government.

“It’s an extremist government. We would like an end to the occupation,” said Ahmed Majid, 31. “Really the only true solution is through politics. But there is the occupation and the only way that will end is with weapons.“

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:05 am 21. Snippet:

I agree. Calling the democrats “liberal” is just not right.

Let’s see. They are opposed to spreading democracy, and want to preserve the status quo.

Sounds like they’ve become conservatives.

Interesting times.

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:22 am 22. In Vino Veritas:

Interesting times.

Er, no. Liberals are opposed to war. As always.

Conservatives celebrate war. As always.

La plus ca change…

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:24 am 23. Silicon valley Jim:

Jeff Jacoby does himself proud with today’s column on the background to the election:

http://jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby121505.php3

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:42 am 24. JK Ribera:

“Er, no. Liberals are opposed to war. As always.

Conservatives celebrate war. As always.”

I at first thought that was satire. No one could be that stupid or ignorant of the history of the Vietnam War (the involvement of the Kennedys with the Diems, ect.). No wonder this Vino fellow/gal posts anonymously. If I made statements like that, I would too.

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:59 am 25. monkyboy:

Speaking of Vietnam:

by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967)

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3– United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam’s presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

Dec 15, 2005 - 12:12 pm 26. Charlie (Colorado):

The boys there have done their job; bring them home. If not now, then when?

When leaving won’t lead to the civil war and collapse you’ve been so frantically predicting, causing millions of people to come back under a fascist tyranny.

You fucking moron.

Dec 15, 2005 - 12:26 pm 27. TB:

“Er, no. Liberals are opposed to war. As always.”

This is wrong. It is pacifists, not liberals, who are oppsed to war. What we think of as “liberal” today may not be a definition that spans centuries or even decades, but clearly liberals supported and participated in many of the wars America has fought, including this one.

Dec 15, 2005 - 12:46 pm 28. Knucklehead:

Wow, In Vino Monkeygrip, you are a real prize.

Congratulations to the Iraqis for taking yet another step on the long journey. You are fighting, dying, and voting for a better future.

Thanks to all the fine Americans who made it possible.

Dec 15, 2005 - 12:47 pm 29. Terrye:

I wish the Iraqis well and I think it would be nice if we could have one day without the usual sniping and bitching and moaning.

Dec 15, 2005 - 1:54 pm 30. Shochu John:

Terrye,

I completely agree, which is why I was taking issue with Roger’s inappropriate sniping of Dean and Murtha, et al.

Dec 15, 2005 - 1:58 pm 31. Old Dad:

BDS must rot your brain. It sure as hell rots your soul. Our lefty trolls are invested in failure. Bush must fail. OIF must fail. Iraqis must die by the thousands. Or else you can’t feel good about your miserable selves.

Nearly 15 million Iraqis voted today. Perhaps, they are delusional Amerrrikkkan puppets. But, perhaps, they aren’t.

Could you put a sock in your pie holes for one day and just pretend for a second or two that the Iraqis just might be inching toward peace and freedom?

Dec 15, 2005 - 2:18 pm 32. Bostonian:

Shochu

Dean, Murtha, et al have been sniping since day one, and have been doing so non-stop, along with their fans and supporters.

Like Betty said, they can go to hell.

Dec 15, 2005 - 2:25 pm 33. Shochu John:

Bostonian,

Your side can snipe but theirs cannot?

I see. So much for Terrye’s suggested respite in honor of the vote.

Dec 15, 2005 - 3:08 pm 34. monkyboy:

I think America turned out fine even though the French didn’t stick around and show us how to set up a country after the Revolution.

Despite the fact you guys are convinced it would further some left-wing plot…now might be the best time to go. It would remove any excuse for the insurgency to continue.

Dec 15, 2005 - 3:14 pm 35. Bostonian:

Shochu,

I didn’t say they can’t snipe. I said they can go to hell. Do you have some kind of problem with reading comprehension?

Dec 15, 2005 - 3:30 pm 36. WichitaBoy:

The liberal position is to support individual rights, to fight tyrannous governments, to support democracy, even if it means fighting an unpleasant but necessary war.

The cowardly position is to huddle in one’s bed, hoping against hope that the bullies and the thugs and the fascists won’t show up on one’s doorstep, while pretending to clothe oneself in the mantle of the great liberals of the past.

Dec 15, 2005 - 3:59 pm 37. Shochu John:

Bostonian,

Obviously, the comment above did not mean that Dean et al could not physically snipe, but rather JUSTIFIABLY snipe. That is, after all, what we were talking about. When you say that they have been sniping since day one and can go to hell, that conveys a very clear maning that any such sniping is unjustified.

I must say that with telling people to go to hell and questioning my reading abilities, you are coming off as rather rude and nasty. I am here to have a civilized discussion. If this is going to become an invective war, I am really not interested in participating.

Monkyboy,

I am going to have to disagree with your statement that our withdrawal “would remove any excuse for the insurgency to continue.” The mostly Sunni ex-Baathist insurgence simply isn’t interested either an Iraq with a weaker central government (federal system) or an Iraq ruled by Shi’ite religious parties. If we leave, there is nothing stopping them from going straight to Baghdad and staging a coup.

Dec 15, 2005 - 4:07 pm 38. Sandy P:

–Do we even have to mention the fact that Iraq will never truly be a democracy until foreign troops leave her.–

Germany

Japan

South Korea

Britain – we still have some troops there, don’t we?

Spain

Italy

IVV, really now. And we’ve been in all those places longer than I’ve been alive.

Dec 15, 2005 - 4:10 pm 39. Sandy P:

– think America turned out fine even though the French didn’t stick around and show us how to set up a country after the Revolution.–

Not for lack of trying and Congress trying to give away our hard-won sovereignty.

“Apparently it was not until he reached Paris, not until his initial meetings w/Jay, that Adams learned for the first time of the commission’s instructions from Congress to abide by the guidance of the French Foreign Ministry. Admas was outraged. America was not fighting a war for independece to be told what to do by the French.” John Adams by D. McCullough, p. 275.

And didn’t they attack our ships starting about 1 year after independence?

Dec 15, 2005 - 4:17 pm 40. markus:

The four big trimuphant moments so far in this war have been the capture of Baghdad, the capture of Saadam, the election last January, and the one this week. Interspersed by week after week of severed limbs and other dreadful news. But yes, looking at the forest for the trees, one does see some cause for optimism, some sense that things are fitfully and slowly moving in the right direction.

It may possibly be worth it in the end. It would definately have been worth it — every severed limb of every enlistee that signed up in order to get out of dead end rural America and protect his country — had this truly been a war of necessity. Instead, we in the middle of a well-meaning big-government social engineering project, one that may or may not in the end be of net benefit to ourselves and the Iraqi people. As a liberal, I hope it is of great benefit.

Dec 15, 2005 - 4:24 pm 41. chuck:

…that signed up in order to get out of dead end rural America and protect his country

Ah, Mr. Snobblepuss shows his hand. All those poor deluded hicks, those thickheaded escapees from the rural ghettoes, those red hearted suckers, his heart goes out to them. He really really cares. I’m touched.

Markus: dumb as two turds in a teacup.

Dec 15, 2005 - 4:38 pm 42. Sandy P:

–enlistee that signed up in order to get out of dead end rural America and protect his country –

At least they can pass the test to get in, unlike the urban blue state kids who are too stupid.

Marcus, we’re in the middle of a well-meaning big-government social engineering project(s), here, care to get rid of or severely alter a few?

Dec 15, 2005 - 5:04 pm 43. Shochu John:

IVV says, “Do we even have to mention the fact that Iraq will never truly be a democracy until foreign troops leave her.” Sandy responds with examples of democracies with a US trrop presense. I also disagree with IVV’s point as stated. However, one giant difference I will note between those sucessful democracies and Iraq is that those governments would not collapse internally if the US troops were to leave. I would certanly say that Iraq will not be a successful democracy until it reaches a point that the government can actually exercise sovereignty without being buttressed by foreign troops.

Sandy also says, “And didn’t they [France] attack our ships starting about 1 year after independence?”

I don’t think so. I know the British were attacking our ships following the Revolution. They refused to recognize our sailors as American citizens, and impressed them into the Royal Navy. Our relationship with Britain was strained to say the least following our independence, though we were awfully friendly with France. I would be very surprised to learn of any example of them attacking us in that period.

Dec 15, 2005 - 5:27 pm 44. Charlie (Colorado):

Markus, I’m going to preface this with two things: first, that if being a “liberal” meant eschewing “well-meaning big-government social engineering project[s]“, I might be more inclined to think of myself as a “liberal”; and second, I’ve got to give you credit for saying something reasonable and civil.

With that said, though, and at the risk of spoiling the moment of relative good-will, I’ve got to ask: what degree of expected benefits or desirable outcomes would be necessary to qualify as a “war of necessecity”?

It would appear to me that we were presented with an escalating series of attacks on the United States, through attacks on the actual home territory (both WTC attacks), on extraterritorial sovereign US installations (embassies, which are considered US national territory under international law), and directly on the US military in third counries (Lebanon, the USS Cole.) All of those things would normally have been considered causus bellia on their own.

Add to that the intelligence as it stood on the first day of the way, which was quite clear that iraq had active WMD programs, and just for this moment, don’t indulge in hindsight: it’s absolutely clear that everyone, including Saddam apparently, thought he had significant WMDs.

Add to that the existing state of hostilities between the US and Iraq, which had never been terminated after the first phase of the Gulf War, along with the fact that Iraq was without question at least extending logistical support to al Qaeda (eg, providing medical treatment and refuge to al Qaeda people fleeing Afghanistan, as well as providing sanctuary to abu Nidal), and actively attacking US military forces in the No-Fly Zones.

Add to that the fact that by removing Iraq from Saddam’s control we would break a logistical chain that, at the beginning of the war, ran from Algeria to Pakistan.

And, with all of that in mind, recall that we were dealing with an enemy whose stated purpose was not just to push the US out of Saudi Arabia, but to push us out of the entire Middle East, kill every Jew in Israel (a country with which we’ve got a mutual defense treaty), restore the caliphate all the way over to the southern half of Spain (a NATO ally), and eventually to impose their religious fascism on the world.

Then note that, as a side effect, we would be liberating 50 million people.

Just what would it take to constitute a “War of Necessity” in your opinion?

Once you’ve answered that question, you could answer a couple of subsidiary questions, if you would.

First, were you protecting the “Iraq Liberation Act of 1998,” which made it explicitly the policy of the United States to eliminate the Saddam regime, at the time it was passed?

Second, did the US effort in the Balkans constitute a “war of necessity”? And if not, were you actively contesting President Clinton’s prosecution of that war?

Third, would acting against the Anschluss and the invasions of Czechoslovakia and Poland in 1938 and 1939 have been a “war of necessity”?

Dec 15, 2005 - 5:38 pm 45. RogerA:

Sochu John–it was in all the history books: its called the undeclared naval war with

France–as it was, it honed the American Fighting Navy into a new and very effective fighting organization, and led to the creation of the American 44s: Frigates like the Constitution. But aside from the history lesson:

For those cynics, defeatists and realists: Does not the idea of democracy ring any bells at all? Are you souls so bereft of idealism that you cannot comprehend what has happened? Apropos RLS’s comments about the Democratic Party leadership: Accurate and on point–they are YOUR leaders, and I for one want no part of them or you. What happened to the democratic party of the 1960s that inspired me? JFKs stirring words in defense of freedom? RFKs stirring words about seeing things that could be?

Alas–it is no more.

Congratulations to the Iraqi people–

Dec 15, 2005 - 5:41 pm 46. Charlie (Colorado):

I would certanly say that Iraq will not be a successful democracy until it reaches a point that the government can actually exercise sovereignty without being buttressed by foreign troops.

Um, that would appear to be an argument for a continued presence, unless you’re also willing to argue that allowing Iraq to collapse would be a Good Thing.

(PS. Send oyu-wari. It’s still cold.)

Dec 15, 2005 - 5:41 pm 47. vnjagvet:

Markus:

It’s too bad you had to include the phrase noted by Chuck and Sandy. But for that phrase, your comment seemed to make some sense.

Dec 15, 2005 - 5:43 pm 48. PeterUK:

“”BIG LOSERS of the day so far: Howard Dean, Jack Murtha, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the rest of the reactionary, fuddy-duddy leadership of the Democratic Party”

Fascinating. Did any of the above people suggest that the elections would not come off relatively well? I certainly didn’t hear it. ”

These turkeys would have been running before the ink had dried,all you would have got is the rush of air.

What’s the Fuddy-Duddy,a dance from the sixties?

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:02 pm 49. RogerA:

Appropos some of the comments above–It does appear to me that some of our more pessimistic posters really have little understanding of history. To me the MOST interesting hypothetical would be how would they have responded to the Nazi take over of Austria and the Nazi march into the Sudetenland–They clearly would have stood with the Father Coughlans and Charles Linberg–They would have catstigated FDR for conducting naval support for supplies bound for the UK–and had their side prevailed how many MORE people would Hitler had sent to the gas chamber?

The same ex post facto argument can be made for the Bolshevik takeover of Russia–had we pursued the White Russian campaign, and gotten the Bolsheviks out of power, how many Russians would not have died.

Those are lessons IVV, Monkyboy and Sochu John could consider–

Any brief accounting would suggest over one hundred million lives would not have been lost had any one shown the courage to act, rather than appease.

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:19 pm 50. PeterUK:

RogerA,

They were with Germany all the way, from the Molotov Ribbentrop pact until Operation Barbarrosa.After that the Commintern gave them new orders.

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:24 pm 51. Dave:

Re: Shochu John’s comment, “I am here to have a civilized discussion.”

Not Obvious to me. Seemed more like he was here to troll and stir up trouble.

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:25 pm 52. monkyboy:

Inspiring words for the Iraqis who view the American troops in their country as an occupying force. According to the recent BBC poll, that’s half of all Iraqis…

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:29 pm 53. Ed Poinsett:

Why do you lefties studiously avoid the fact that this is Saddam’s war? The UN had been futzing with him for 12 years. Bush told him as directly as he could that he had to give up his weapons. Saddam refused, Bush gave him one last chance in March 2003, and was ignored again.

If the inspectors had been granted the full compliance with UNSC#1441, no matter how good the case was to go to war, the Congress would have cut Bush off at the knees. He would have to pull the troops from Kuwait and come home. Simple, except to those who will not see.

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:42 pm 54. RogerA:

Ah, PeterUK–you throw out this historical terms like any of our trolls understand them–I am sure George Orwell used the leftist reaction to the Von Ribentrop pact where the commies sided with nazis in 1984: Oceana had ALWAYS been at war with (whomever)……..

All you can say from reading the troll comments is how absolutely right Santayana was.

Dec 15, 2005 - 6:44 pm 55. jerry:

IVV, MB and SJ:

You gripe about a poorly planned and executed campaign as if all successful military operations go off exactly as planned with no detours failures or unplanned outcomes.

Here is something to think about. Sixty one years ago tomorrow, December 16, 1944 the Germans launched a totally unexpected attack through the Ardennes Forest known to Americans as the Battle of the Bulge. Over the next four weeks nearly 20,000 American soldiers were killed and 60,000 wounded or taken prisoner. The massive German offensive took us totally by surprise because our intelligence agencies failed to detect the German build up. This offensive came after a series of stalements and outright defeats on the frontiers of Germany that took many thousands of allied soldiers lives. I guess Eisenhower conducted a poorly planned and executed operation that led to the defeat of US and Allied forces by German arms by mid January 1945. Well that’s the story line that today’s opponents of the US liberation of Iraq would say if you applied their logic to the last four months of 1944.

Critics of the war fall into two classes. The ignorant who have no conception of how military operations are conducted and assume that all successful actions come off like a choreographed ballet. Then there are those who might or might have a understanding of war but who support the other side. From what I have seen IVV and MB fall into the pro-terroist/pro-Saddam red-brown anti democratic camp while SJ appears to want to believe in success but really doesn’t have an adequate understanding of the conduct of military operations.

War and football share one common trait. The winner isn’t the one who has the perfect plan executed perfectly. The winner is the side that makes fewest mistakes. We are winning and terroists and Saddamites are losing. The heavy turnout in Sunnistan is an indication that the Baathist insurgency has reached a dead end. They misunderestimated what it would take to defeat the United States when the political leadership is not driven by self-hatred or the polls. Yes 2100 of Americaís finest have been lost in the last two and half years but 2500 of Americaís finest were killed on D-Day alone along with an equal number of British and Canadian forces. During the month of the Battle of Bulge more then 1000 Americans were dying every day to defeat Germany and Japan. As tragic as each soldierís death may be in Iraq, it pales in comparison to the carnage of the Second World War. The human cost of OIF is quite small for giving the Iraqi people a chance for consensual government. Those who oppose the war are enemies of freedom.

Dec 15, 2005 - 7:03 pm 56. Charlie (Colorado):

Monkyboy: Inspiring words for the Iraqis who view the American troops in their country as an occupying force. According to the recent BBC poll, that’s half of all Iraqis…

Only half? Do you supppose the other half are illiterate, or merely apathetic?

Of course they see the US as an occupying force, you ninny. We are an occupying force.

What’s more, the polls say they want us to go home — as soon as they are capable of establishing order and security on their own.

So what? That happens to coincide exactly with what we want. Unlike, say, France, Russia, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Japan, and the United Kingdom, we’ve got a long history of occupying, setting up a working country, and turning it back over to the occupants with hardly a harsh word.

Honest to God, man, at least try to put up a decent argument. This is just embarrassing.

Dec 15, 2005 - 7:08 pm 57. DrDan in MA:

I saw coverage of today’s Iraqi elections that showed extensive presence of foreign election observers.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face why we do not allow domestic or foreign election observers (or even exit polling) in the national elections of the United States of America?

Is it because we have already achieved perfection in our electoral processes?

I eagerly await your answer(s). Remember, with a straight face now…

Dec 15, 2005 - 7:38 pm 58. joe:

Wish someone could help me find some links.

I am sure some of you might remember the last election in Iraq for the constitution. It was mostly discounted by M$M and the demos. They said the telling point the critical election would be in December.

This is the standard game plan of the demos and M$M, always moving the goal and the definition of success to some future date.

Thanks in advance for looking.\

Dec 15, 2005 - 7:40 pm 59. monkyboy:

Actually , Charlie about a quarter of Iraqis wanted our troops out immediately, another quarter wanted them out after the election.

Leaving our troops in Iraq will make them the focus of political debate and give the worst Iraqi politicians an easy slogan to gather followers…

Some kind of idea is at the beginning of every political movement. It is not necessary to put this idea in a thick book, nor that it take political form in a hundred long paragraphs. History proves that the greatest world movements have always developed when their leaders knew how to unify their followers under a short, clear theme.

That is clear from the French Revolution, or Cromwell’s movement, or Buddhism, Islam, or Christianity. Christ’s goal was clear and simple: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” He gathered his followers behind that straightforward statement. Because this teaching was simple, crisp, clear, and understandable, enabling the broad masses to stand behind it, it in the end conquered the world.

-Joseph Goebbels

Dec 15, 2005 - 7:57 pm 60. In Vino Veritas:

the definition of success to some future date.

Here is the definition of success for me: can our boys come home? So, if today was such a success, does that mean our troops can spend Christmas with their families? If they can’t, then it’s not a success. It’s really that simple.

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:02 pm 61. chuck:

DrDan,

Is it because we have already achieved perfection in our electoral processes?

Absolutely. In the US even the dead vote, few other countries have achieved this milestone. It is also the case that most of the voting dead seem to be Democrats, a fact with disturbing theological implications.

As to international observers in Iraq, you will recall that they chickened out in September. Most of the poll observers came from the Iraqi parties and the IECI. But I know you didn’t mean your question seriously, so your lack of research is forgivable.

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:14 pm 62. chuck:

If they can’t, then it’s not a success. It’s really that simple.

You win, Vino. The election was a vast and unmitigated disaster. A fact attested to by the many folks called upon to spin the news at Roger’s place. The question is: disaster for whom?

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:18 pm 63. Charlie (Colorado):

Can anyone tell me with a straight face why we do not allow domestic or foreign election observers (or even exit polling) in the national elections of the United States of America?

Is it because we have already achieved perfection in our electoral processes?

I presume you’re trying to convince me that you asked the question with a straight face?

In any case, the problem is that you’re incorrect in your assumptions: we do allow election observers, both from the regular parties and other domestic groups (I’ve been both an election judge and a poll watcher), and we do allow exit polling. We also allow foreigners to poll-watch; we just refused to allow the UN to have an official election monitoring role in the last election, and since a number of UN officials were taking an active part in campaigning against Bush (viz. el Baradai) that only seems reasonable.

Besides, those were the same blind ignoramuses who said the Venezuelan recall election was fair: they can’t be trusted to give useful results.

Please, just tell me that the “Dr” in “DrDan” isn’t for Political Science.

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:23 pm 64. Charlie (Colorado):

Here is the definition of success for me: can our boys come home? So, if today was such a success, does that mean our troops can spend Christmas with their families? If they can’t, then it’s not a success. It’s really that simple.

In Vino Bibimus, by that measure, World War I and II are not yet successes. After all, we’ve got lots of people all through Europe and Japan.

Now, be a good boy and run off until you’re ready to talk seriously.

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:26 pm 65. flenser:

if today was such a success, does that mean our troops can spend Christmas with their families? If they can’t, then it’s not a success.

Let this be a lesson to all you youngsters out there; this is what happens to you when you think that the truth can be found in a bottle of wine.

To yourself, you may sound profound, but to everyone else you come across as an incoherent drunk.

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:28 pm 66. joe:

Vino,

And just who do you have from your family who is there, if I might ask.

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:28 pm 67. Charlie (Colorado):

And just as an aside, what’s this bit about “our boys”? Are you all just echoing America-Firsters, consciously or unconsciously? Can’t you at least say “our boys AND GIRLS” or something?

Dec 15, 2005 - 8:28 pm 68. DrDan in MA:

Charlie (Colorado) posted earlier tonight at 08:23 PM:

… In any case, the problem is that you’re incorrect in your assumptions: we do allow election observers, both from the regular parties and other domestic groups (I’ve been both an election judge and a poll watcher), and we do allow exit polling.

I’m sorry, but all the sources I read at the time indicated that election observers and major media exit-polling were outlawed — at least, to my recollection, in knifes’-edge states such as FL and OH for the Presidential election of 2004. If you can provide counterexamples, especially for those particular states, I would be interested.

We also allow foreigners to poll-watch;

I never heard of ANY in 2004, and I followed all news outlets with great attention. You can prove this, esp. in FL and OH?

we just refused to allow the UN to have an official election monitoring role in the last election, and since a number of UN officials were taking an active part in campaigning against Bush (viz. el Baradei) that only seems reasonable.

Funny how Mohammed el Baradei was just awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. But I forgot, Henry Kissinger also won it, so THAT’s devalued currency, Neh?

Well getting back to the UN, since one of our two major candidates instigated an illegal war of aggression on a country which was not a threat to us, under false pretenses, one can hardly blame an organization whose Charter was so publicly flouted, could one?

Besides, those were the same blind ignoramuses who said the Venezuelan recall election was fair: they can’t be trusted to give useful results.

… and the U.S. Government would never fund, back and instantly/prematurely recognize an outright coup to overthrow the democratically-elected Chavez government of Venezuela, now would we? Oh heaven forfend. And then have to climb down in humiliation, RE-recognizing Chavez when the people rose up and threw out the coup plotters? Like THAT could ever happen.

… and might you be able to explain why all the literally hundreds of known and proven “anomalies” in vote-counts observed in our voting machines favored the Bush/Cheney ticket in the Presidential election of 2004? That is ALL, 100%, every last one. Probability of occurrence by chance, probably a million-to-one shot. Hmm?

… and in that same vein, would you care to comment about the bogus “security lockdown” in Warren County, OH, [vide the many sources to be found at http://tinyurl.com/czb9r ] which handed the state — and thus the Presidency — to George W. Bush?

If that is the kind of Democracy we wish to export to Iraq, it is a rather ragged remnant of the Democracy I was raised to respect.

Please, just tell me that the “Dr” in “DrDan” isn’t for Political Science.

It’s not. Feel better? But I assure you that it’s not my education that allows me to think independently. It’s my capacity for rational thought as a free citizen of the Nation that I love.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:20 pm 69. Syl:

I don’t believe certain posters here give a rat’s ass about our guys/gals coming home. To them, our military is just a football to play Monday Night Politics with.

It’s all about our 2006 elections. If some of our troops come home, the Dems will claim they did it, if they don’t, the Dems will rail on the ‘failure that is Iraq’.

it’s that simple. The Dems don’t care about our military or the Iraqi people, they only care about taking over the House so they can start impeachment proceedings. Kerry let it out of the bag last night.

Democracy is a process and consists of a series of events plus education and experience. We’ll stay in Iraq with whatever it takes for as long as it takes. Period.

If that means most of our troops can come home next year. Great. If not. Well, we have to finish the job.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:24 pm 70. Syl:

But I assure you that it’s not my education that allows me to think independently

Really? I’m impressed. Then why do you follow the Left’s talking points about ‘illegal war’ under ‘false pretenses’ and mention just Ohio and Fla?

Independent thinking, my ass.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:26 pm 71. markus:

Chuck, I didn’t call the enlistees dumb, you stupid f*cking turd. Both you and Sandy take offense at two extremely obvious points that I raise: first, some Americans are born and raised into privileged circumstances while a great many more are not; second, in Iraq, an even greater proportion of those putting their lives and limbs on the line belong to the latter category.

Charlie (Colorado): the war was not one of necessity because, in 2002, Saadam threatened no one but his own unfortunate subjects. This happy situation was thanks to the Israeli strike of ‘81, the Iran-Iraq war, Operation Desert Storm, seven years of weapons inspections, twelve years of sanctions, and let us not forget, Mr. Hussein’s own monumental stupidity. He was a pathetic tinpot dictator desperately trying to conceal the full magnitude of his weakness from his own subjects, by leaving open the possibility that he might have a few chemical weapons and the capability to shoot them from Baghdad to Karbala. And no, we didn’t know for sure that he didn’t have these WMD’s — that’s why it was important to get the weapons inspectors back in the country. If these Blix inspections — backed up by the threat to use force in the event banned materials were found –had continued beyond March 2003, there is no reason to believe that the magnitude of Saadam’s weakness would not have emerged.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:28 pm 72. monkyboy:

I think you are over-estimating the importance of Iraq to the average American voter, Syl. The “purple fingers” will be forgotten by next week.

The neocons are rolling into next year’s election with the worst political hand since Jimmy Carter faced Ronnie. Iraq won’t help or hurt them…

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:29 pm 73. In Vino Veritas:

And just who do you have from your family who is there, if I might ask.

I am American. Every soldier is kin to me. What country are your from?

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:34 pm 74. Syl:

markus

Just a minor detail or two. OFF scandal and lack of full cooperation with the inspectors.

We found out about the OFF scandal because of documents found in Baghdad.

And we would not have discovered that Saddam had no stockpiles because Saddam would not let us know and it would be hanging over our heads.

Saddam’s was a totalitarian regime. Information didn’t get out because nobody knew the whole picture. We would still, today, be living under the assumption that Saddam had weapons and programs.

Hindsight is too risky to be so damn sure of yourself.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:54 pm 75. Syl:

monkyboy

You’re not worth the pixels.

The Democrats will remind voters EVERY day about Iraq. Don’t be so foolish.

Dec 15, 2005 - 9:57 pm 76. Sandy P:

marcus, what makes you think I take offense?

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:00 pm 77. Sandy P:

–Funny how Mohammed el Baradei was just awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. But I forgot, Henry Kissinger also won it, so THAT’s devalued currency, Neh?—

Don’t forget Arafat.

bleh.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:02 pm 78. chuck:

DrDan,

I never heard of ANY in 2004, and I followed all news outlets with great attention. You can prove this, esp. in FL and OH?

Here you go, link. Google is good, you should learn to use it. It is somewhat embarrassing to have to instruct a man who calls himself DrDan about such things. But you do seem a bit lazy…

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:06 pm 79. markus:

Syl — as far as I have read, Hussein was using OFF proceeds the same way Donald Trump uses his Trump Plaza proceeds. That is, for selfish rather than nefarious purposes.

And while hindsight is 20/20, the CONSENSUS of the intelligence community prior to ‘03 was that he was a potential threat, not a grave one. That’s why getting the weapons inspectors back in was the thing to do from a security point of view.

Not to say there were no other reasons to go to war. Not to say there aren’t reasons to stay now.

But somehow, all this makes the American limbs that were severed in this adventure a lot harder to take than if they had been lost fighting a Hitler or a Stalin or a Kim Jong-il.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:20 pm 80. Jordan:

… and might you be able to explain why all the literally hundreds of known and proven “anomalies” in vote-counts observed in our voting machines favored the Bush/Cheney ticket in the Presidential election of 2004? That is ALL, 100%, every last one.

My God you are a partisan hack. Do you ever do any research before spouting off baseless assertions? Read This report from the American Center for Voting Rights. Oh, and you might want to Google “East St. Louis voter fraud.” You’ll find several Democrats on their way to jail. Oh, and remember the tire slashing Democrats? Their in jail too. Finally, here’s the conclusion from the report, in case you’re too lazy to actually read it (which, based on your intellectual lazyness demonstrated previously, I assume you are):

Democrat operatives far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression in 2004 – Thousands of Americans disenfranchised by vote fraud on election day.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:25 pm 81. chuck:

Marcus,

…a lot harder to take than if they had been lost fighting a Hitler or a Stalin or a Kim Jong-il.

How about Ho Chi Minh, the famous Vietnamese patriot who assassinated the opposition, collectivized agriculture (with the usual results), eliminated the remnants of the Viet Cong in the south, executed some 65,000, set up reeducation camps, and drove several millions to flee the country?

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:29 pm 82. Jordan:

first, some Americans are born and raised into privileged circumstances while a great many more are not; second, in Iraq, an even greater proportion of those putting their lives and limbs on the line belong to the latter category.

Do you lefty hacks even know what Google is? Read this report from the Heritage Foundation. Here is a good quote:

The household income of recruits generally matches the income distribution of the American population. There are slightly higher proportions of recruits from the middle class and slightly lower proportions from low-income brackets. However, the proportion of high-income recruits rose to a disproportionately high level after the war on ter?rorism began, as did the proportion of highly edu?cated enlistees. All of the demographic evidence that we analyzed contradicts the pro-draft case.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:31 pm 83. monkyboy:

You’re citing a report from a right-wing slush fund like the Heritage Foundation as an “unbiased source,” Jordan?

Look at their methodology:

According to the 2000 Census, the national median income per household in 1999 was $41,994 in 1999 dollars. By assigning each recruit the median 1999 household income for his hometown ZIP code, we calculated that the mean 1999 income for 1999 recruits before entering the military was $41,141 (in 1999 dollars). The mean 1999 income for 2003 recruits was $42,822 (in 1999 dollars). In other words, on average, recruits in 2003 were from wealthier neighborhoods than were recruits in 1999.

In other words, they have no clue about who enlisted in the military…pure political b.s.

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:52 pm 84. chuck:

MB,

In other words, they have no clue about who enlisted in the military…pure political b.s.

Numbers are sooo confusing, no?

Dec 15, 2005 - 10:59 pm 85. Jordan:

In other words, they have no clue about who enlisted in the military…pure political b.s.

These are some of the most intellectually lazy trolls I’ve ever seen. How about the Department of Defense? Do you believe them?

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:14 pm 86. Gary Rosen:

monkyboy showed his true colors on another thread where he posted,

“I have no problem with Israel launching an attack on Iran, but the U.S. would have to remain neutral in any subsequent retaliations by Iran…”,

thirsting for the blood of millions of innocent Jews. As for “markus”, well, what can you say about someone who compares Israel to Nazi Germany and leaps to the defense of Holocaust deniers?

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:40 pm 87. Syl:

Markus

Syl — as far as I have read, Hussein was using OFF proceeds the same way Donald Trump uses his Trump Plaza proceeds. That is, for selfish rather than nefarious purposes.

Are you that naive?

Bribing folks isn’t nefarious?

Saddam had a good thing going and he was doing everything in his power including bribery (which gives Saddam blackmail power) to keep from getting ousted and to get the sanctions lifted.

He was perched in a smelly swiss cheese box, and all the little bribees were nibbling new holes.

And what, honestly, do you think the inspectors could have accomplished? It was up to Saddam to come clean, not the inspectors.

The Iraq war was because of Saddam’s inaction, not Bush.

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:41 pm 88. monkyboy:

How about we look at the home towns of the troops who died in Iraq this month:

Spc. Jared W. Kubasak, 25, of Rocky Mount, Va., died in Baghdad, Iraq on Dec. 12

Staff Sgt. Keith A. Bennett, 32, of Holtwood, Pa., died in Ar Ramadi, Iraq on Dec. 11

Sgt. Adrian N. Orosco, 26, of Corcoran, Calif., died in Baghdad, Iraq, on Dec. 9

Staff Sgt. Travis L. Nelson, 41, of Anniston, Ala., died in Baghdad, Iraq, on Dec. 10

1st Lt. Kevin J. Smith, 28, of Brandon, Fla., died in Baghdad, Iraq, on Dec. 8

Staff Sgt. Milton Rivera-Vargas, 55, of Boqueron, Puerto Rico, died in Kalsu, Iraq, on Dec. 8

Sgt. Spencer C. Akers, 35, of Traverse City, Mich., died at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, Texas, on Dec. 8, of injuries sustained in Habbaniyah, Iraq

Cpl. Joseph P. Bier, 22, of Centralia, Wash., died Dec. 7 from an improvised explosive device while conducting combat operations against enemy forces in Ar Ramadi, Iraq

Sgt. Michael C. Taylor, 23, of Hockley, Texas, died in Balad, Iraq, on Dec. 7

Spc. Brian A. Wright, 19, of Keensburg, Ill., died in Ramadi, Iraq on Dec. 6

Pfc. Thomas C. Siekert, 20, of Lovelock, Nev., died in Bayji, Iraq on Dec. 6

Sgt. 1st Class Richard L. Schild, 40, of Tabor, S.D., died in Baghdad, Iraq, on Dec. 4

Staff Sgt. Daniel M. Cuka, 27, of Yankton, S.D., died in Baghdad, Iraq, on Dec. 4

Cpl. Jimmy L. Shelton, 21, of Lehigh Acres, Fla., died in Bayji, Iraq on Dec. 3

Staff Sgt. Philip L. Travis, 41, of Snellville, Ga., died at Tallil Air Base, Iraq, on Dec. 2

Sgt. Philip A. Dodson, Jr., 42, of Forsyth, Ga., died at Tallil Air Base, Iraq, on Dec. 2

Spc. Marcus S. Futrell, 20, of Macon, Ga., died at Tallil Air Base, Iraq, on Dec. 2

And the 11 who died on Dec. 1st in Ramadi, Iraq:

Staff Sgt. Daniel J. Clay, 27, of Pensacola, Fla.

Lance Cpl. John M. Holmason, 20, of Suprise, Ariz.

Lance Cpl. David A. Huhn, 24, of Portland, Mich.

Lance Cpl. Adam W. Kaiser, 19, of Naperville, Ill.

Lance Cpl. Robert A. Martinez, 20, of Splendora, Texas

Cpl. Anthony T. McElveen, 20, of Little Falls, Minn.

Lance Cpl. Scott T. Modeen, 24, of Hennepin, Minn.

Lance Cpl. Andrew G. Patten, 19, of Byron, Ill.

Sgt. Andy A. Stevens, 29, of Tomah, Wis.

Lance Cpl. Craig N. Watson, 21, of Union City, Mich.

———————————————–

Besides Macon Georgia, I’ve never heard of any of those town…anymore right-wing b.s. about all the rich kids dying for Halliburton?

Dec 15, 2005 - 11:45 pm 89. Shochu John:

Hello again one and all,

First, Charlie (CO) says, “Um, that would appear to be an argument for a continued presence, unless you’re also willing to argue that allowing Iraq to collapse would be a Good Thing.”

Well, that would be correct if we were actually making progress toward bringing the country toward a state of governability, and our continued presence was just not putting off the inevitable civil war. Voting is all well and good, but there is an underlying issue of what the government can actually do once it is selected. There are huge rifts in Iraq amongst the various sectarian/ethnic groups, and the violence we see right now in Iraq is simply a symptom of these rifts. As long as the sides involved are unwilling to compromise because they think they can win any armed conflict, how is that armed conflict anything but inevitable?

Jerry says, in the midst of a giant WWII comparison,”From what I have seen IVV and MB fall into the pro-terroist/pro-Saddam red-brown anti democratic camp while SJ appears to want to believe in success but really doesn’t have an adequate understanding of the conduct of military operations.”

And I think your problem, Jerry, is that you don’t understand the difference bewteen a conventional and insurgent war. WWII was brutal and certainly what we are doing now pales in comparison to that carnage, but it was also simpler. The objective was to get the other guy to surrender, and that was accomplished by taking ground until you got his castle. The best way to do that is the subject of al kinds of fine military strategy, in which, certainly, it was the idea to make fewer mistakes than the other guy. In anti-insurgent warfare, it is far more complicated, because you, as an outsider, have to not only understand where the popular support of native resistance comes from, but how best to undermine it. Ugh, a hearts and minds war! Is there anything worse?

Jerry goes on, “The heavy turnout in Sunnistan is an indication that the Baathist insurgency has reached a dead end”

Right, let’s see if you can tell me that in a year. I’ve been hearing that this or that “landmark” has spelled the end of the insurgence for nigh on two years now. Let’s not pretend that it is impossible to vote with one hand and kill with the other. The IRA did it.

Sandy writes challenging my point that in contrast to Germany and Japan, Iraq would collapse internally without foreign troops, “Oh, really SJ? Are you using a 2005 date or 1946-7-8-9 date?”

It doesn’t matter. There was no insurgence worth the name in either Japan or Germany. The leaders of both countries surrendered and the populace at large accepted it. Despite the devastation by war, there was no real social breakdown. In Iraq, nobody surrendered and some of the populace accept the government and some will keep fighting until they get a government they like. In Japan and Germany, we started with a popularly legitmiate government and made it democratic, a far easier task than taking a democratic government and making it legitimate, as in Iraq. It is, after all, why MacArthur kept Hirohito around after the war. The Japanese needed to accept the legitimacy of the new order. Failing that, we would need to desperately try to maintain order by force alone. Furthermore, Iraq has far more centrifugal forces than did postwar Japan or Germany due to its messy ethnic and sectarian divisions, in turn resulting from its incredibly artificial nature as a country. Our forces are the only glue holding this nation together.

I’ve blathered on long enough for now. Have a good day, all.

Dec 16, 2005 - 1:05 am 90. exguru:

There were countless expressions of goodwill by Iraqis toward Americans on election day. This means we are NOT going to have to fight the whole Muslim world… And, Iraqis are elated with the envy they are getting from the Syrians, Jordanians, Saudis, Iranians, Kuwaitis, Palestinians, Egyptians and others, about their new form of government. George W. Bush will inevitably become the Simon Bolivar of the Middle East. This election was too big an event for CNN and Al-Jazzera to suppress, though the NY Times and LA Times may be somewhat more successful

Dec 16, 2005 - 1:44 am 91. Syl:

exguru

Damned straight!

monkyboy

You are a SNOB. Get a life and a clue. And travel around this country.

Shochu John

Tell you what. Since you’re so damned sure there’s gonna be civil war in Iraq, put your money where your mouth is and buy a contract on Tradesports. Otherwise, quit shitting on the Iraqi people’s finest day!

Dec 16, 2005 - 2:38 am 92. Syl:

Roger

It’s not my place to say. But I think you should ban monkyboy. Look how he’s using the names of our brave military fallen.

As I said, he doesn’t give a rip for them as human beings. Only as pawns in his class war.

It’s disgusting.

Dec 16, 2005 - 2:42 am 93. Terrye:

monkyboy:

You elitist little moron.

I am from rural America. Believe it or not, we have running water and electricity and schools and flush toilets and everthing out here in dead end hicksville USA. Regional snobbery is just another reason the Democrats are losing middle America.

And for all the folks citing polls about the desire of the Iraqi to see US troops leave, note that only about 8% think it is a top priority in the next year. Not right after the election.

This is pathetic it really is.

The terrorists do not need to destroy America, it seems we are more than willing to that ourselves.

Dec 16, 2005 - 3:21 am 94. jerry:

Monkeyboy:

Your arguments remind me of the way leftists opposed US support for the UK in 1939-41. Just subsitute FDR for GWB, General Motors for Halliburton and big oil and Israel for the Jews. Wait a minute Israelis are Jews. So you may keep throwing out your neo-communist talking points but we don’t have to listen. Too bad there is no Soviet Union around anymore to tell morons like you what the current party line is so they can get it right. You are doomed to stay stuck on stupid.

SJ: There has been civil war going on in Iraq for a long time. The Sunnis have been at war with the Shia and Kurds since the liberation. If US troops leave then the Shia and Kurd based Iraqi National Army will simple eliminate the Sunnis if they want to fight a civil war. I know you argued that all the military experience resides with the Sunnis and they with their 15% will defeat the 85% of the armed population. But your arguments are based on the same kinds of assumptions that called the Republican Guard “elite” as if they were the Waffen SS. The RG wasn’t as good as a first call US Army National Gurard division and all the Sunni Cadre was good for was killing unarmed civilians. The Shia and and Kurds are now armed and they have an Army. If the Sunni continue to resists they will die. The reason the Sunnis are going to the polls is that they recognize this. The Sunni insurgency is matter of face and honor at this point. If you knew something about the middle east you would understand that. They know they have lost and the rules have changed. They are trying to figure out how to live in the new Iraq.

As far as Saddam being an imminent threat goes that is Demorcratic Party talking point. Bush said specifically that we can no longer afford to wait until the threat is imminent. LGEN Clapper, head of NGA, and the retired IDF Chief of Staff still believe that Saddam shipped the major components of his WMD program to Syria 6-8 weeks before the war started while we were dithering at the UN. This is consistant with Saddams behavior in the Iran-Irag war and Desert Storm where to preserve key capabilies he sent aircraft and ships out of the country.

Dec 16, 2005 - 4:30 am 95. Buddy Larsen:

Well, I’d been enjoying reading Fatuous SJ (whose writing if condensed by two thirds would prevent his sounding like an eighth-grader), the equally virtueless ideas of IVV (who wants to leave and by-all-means-should), and the usual others shivering with pleasure at getting the usual spanking for their dictator-worshipping ways, right up until the list of fallen soldiers. That’s not funny. The military families do not want their sons and daughters to be used in this manner–that’s precisely what the war is against–lack of respect for other human beings.

Oh, I know the rejoinder–lost limbs, how would I like to be dead, the troops wouldn’t die if they stayed home, Saddam may’ve quit murdering,invading, and developing and besides so what, they’re just Arabs, no need to allocate oil for the world, let’s have WWIII over it instead, GWB uses coke, Laura Bush is a murderess, on and on–save yoursef the trouble, the arguments are as familiar as garbage cans, were referendumed November 2004, have been countered so often as to make further argument pointless, are belied by history, and scoffed at by the soldiers themselves (who are now running almost 90% conservative).

But, please, DO understand the meaning of throwing a named KIA around in your own service, past the point that he or she can object, and while the emotions of the death are so new and raw in his or her family.

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:18 am 96. Joe Schmoe:

Monkyboy-

Well, Naperville, IL is an upper-middle-class suburb, a land of McMansions and golf courses. Macon, GA and Hennepin, MN aren’t small towns either.

But let’s assume for the sake of argument that your theory is true — all US soldiers are from dirt-poor small towns. Actually, in my limited experience, there is a lot of truth to it. At least half of the enlisted guys I have met are from hick towns in the middle of nowhere. The rest are from working class suburbs of major cities. A few, less than you might think, are from hardcore ghetto areas. There are always a handful of rich people in the enlisted ranks, a general’s son, an Exeter graduate, etc., but they are flukes.

But SO WHAT? Are you telling me that if you grow up in Booneville, KY, you have “no choice” but to enlist in the military? Man, what planet are you on? It’s 2005, not 1935.

Have you ever heard of something called a community college? The ones here cost all of $25/credit hour. Everyone can afford that.

Do you not realize that there are jobs available outside of the military? Even for those who only have a HS education? It is possible to earn a living outside of the military, you know. Every single one of my cousins, none of whom went to college, have somehow managed to get by without joining up. They became truck drivers, secretaries, pipefitters, and waitressses instead. Imagine that!

I myself am the son of a taxi driver. I grew up in working-class suburb of Chicago. You might think that the only way out of this miserable existence (although I never thought it was miserable…) was to join the Marines, right? Well, no, it wasn’t. I worked my way through college. Flipping burgers and changing bedpans. It never occurred to me to join the military. Nor was I forced to visit a recruiter, or even join the ROTC, out of economic desparation. I grew up in the midwest. So yes, it is possible to raise yourself out of humble circumstances without donning fatigues and combat boots.

A lot of people from working-class suburbs and rual areas do it becuase it is customary there. An old family friend is a doctor, an emergency room physician. He was in the Special Forces before college and medical school. All three of his kids are joing the militiary, the boys hoping to follow their dad into Special Forces. They live in West Virginia, in a small town. Why are they joining up? Becuase it is a family tradition. It’s certainly not due to economic necessity. Military service is a tradition for a lot of rural people. You obviously don’t know anything about that sort of tradition, though.

Or consider this. Most of the firemen in my community are ex-military. The woman who cuts my hair has a son who wants to become a firefighter. He asked a neighbor who is a member of the department how to apply. The neighbor advised him to join the military, so he joined the Navy. When he gets out, he still plans to apply for a job with the FD. I once worked for a moving company where probably 75% of the employees were ex-military, Army and Marines. In some groups, military service is a rite of passage, part of the transition from youth to manhood.

Friends of mine from the working-class ‘burbs enlisted because they wanted to get their lives togetner. They were working at minimum-wage jobs, living at home, and getting drunk on the weekends. One day they woke up and realized that they were going nowhere, and decided to join the military in order to better themselves.

Your view of working-class life is really warped. The Great Depression ended 65 years ago. No one today is forced to join the military.

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:19 am 97. Buddy Larsen:

Beautiful, Joe–just plain beautiful. MB is lost in his cartoon propaganda. Let him stay there, he’s self-quarantined with the other ILO wobbly-poseurs safely insconsed-for-life in academia.

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:30 am 98. Buddy Larsen:

The MBs of the world have to be somewhere after all, and be given something to do. Where better than where they are, doing minimum harm to productive systems, and offering the students an example of what not to be?

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:44 am 99. Buddy Larsen:

And, credit-where-due, he and his friends are big-hearted, they love our doofless hicks-in-uniform so much that they want them all to come home so they can get together, knock back some beer, and watch football (but, heavens, what if they sign up for class?).

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:53 am 100. Buddy Larsen:

And you, IVV, with your so-cool handle, Mr. Suave, you keep wrapping yourself in the flag, but since you’d've handed it over to the first mean bastard who demanded it, your America would never have survived even the 18th, much less the 20th, century, so, yes, fine, you’re an American–but only technically.

You say you love your country, and I’m sure you do, why wouldn’t you, after all?

But what about when that doesn’t matter, what about when love means having to say you’re sorry–about every goddamn thing under the sun–and yet you’re still duct-tape-trussed in front of a video camera, and the mean bastard is still sharpening his goat-skinner?

What do you do then? Go back in time, and change your mind?

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:13 am 101. Buddy Larsen:

And you, Markus–you’re better than all this–you and I have rapproached more than once–when is it going to be time for you to show some leadership? You’re a Democratic party avtivist, and it *should* by all rights be a great thing to share a forum and debate honestly. So, I hate to see you standing on the fantail saluting Dean, Reid, Pelosi, Kerry & co as you sink beneath the sea. When will you stand up show some leadership? You could start here by explaining to MB what’s wrong with the way he used his KIA research.

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:26 am 102. joe:

Vino,

Well you surely have surprised me about being an American.

So you really have no one there at all.

Well I happen to have a son there.

Trust me he would not claim you as anything certainly not as some one he was related to but …

He has nothing in common with you. I doubt most of those who serve do either.

Will leave it at that.

BTW

Merry Christmas.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:04 am 103. joe:

Vino,

Well you surely have surprised me about being an American.

So you really have no one there at all.

Well I happen to have a son there.

Trust me he would not claim you as anything certainly not as some one he was related to but …

He has nothing in common with you. I doubt most of those who serve do either.

Will leave it at that.

BTW

Merry Christmas.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:05 am 104. Buddy Larsen:

A large part of the Right objects to many things about JFK, but the way he stood on democratic principle–the “bear any burden” stance, is a beautiful piece of American history. Go back there, Markus–become a real party again.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:18 am 105. Buddy Larsen:

Roll up your sleeves, Markus, and get busy on Social Security, Medicare, and the IRS reform we’ll need very soon. Let the military beat the terrorists. Leave the SJs, IVVs, and MBs with their thesaurii, make-up mirrors, and terribly frightning tire-swings, and get back to creating value in your political product.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:52 am 106. WAmom:

Omar & his fellow “PJ” journalists may be new to democracy, but they seem to have intuitively honed in on journalistic reporting.

I can’t remember the last time I read news stories that faithfully reported all the bare facts without crafting those facts into some message template. Thanks PJ-ers; your had the most coverage of the election, an event I can’t hear enough of.

Off topic, but it occurred to me that a similar setup would be an excellent way to use the power of the internet to monitor questionable international elections.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:54 am 107. AlanC:

To all sane folks here:

Please note that DrDan comes from MA. Unfortunately this type of intellectual / historical buffoonery is the reason that we have Senators like Kerry and Kennedy.

There are a few sane folks here, but, DD and his ilk have us outnumbered.

Pray for us (even us agnostics. We need all the help we can get)

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:05 am 108. Bostonian:

Great, another war about the war….

I have yet to see *ANY* of the lefties showing *ANY* sign of comprehension of the purpose of our war in Iraq or of the nature of the war against Islamofascism in general.

But it’s not like we haven’t explained it thousands of times.

They never have and never will take it seriously.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:25 am 109. Buddy Larsen:

Tip, AlanC–don’t even bother to read anyone who is so pained to let you know he wishes to be regarded a “dr.” that he ‘handles’ the honorific.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:27 am 110. Buddy Larsen:

“They never have and never will take it seriously.”

Why should they? They can stand way in back of those who do, bitch about the cost, and enjoy the best of both worlds.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:31 am 111. Buddy Larsen:

maximum gain at minimum cost, live safe, and let the suckers do the work.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:34 am 112. Steven Mitchell:

Guys and gals, you are getting upset over a good thing. When the trolls are thick and even Markus loses the pretense of “the reasonable voice”, you know things are going well. The left is coming even more unhinged, which can only be a good thing for real liberals.

You’ve seen the same thing in Carter, Kerry, Dashle, etc. They adopt that soothing tone, are “gravely disappointed”, and oh so reasonable sounding as long as you don’t actually think about the content. People fall for that, or at least feel the need not to shut them off. Let them get the crazed look in the eye, and it is Wellstone Memorial service all over again. This will make it that much harder for them to play the, “the troops only came home because we demanded it” card, which is clearly the plan of some.

Of course, that is a minor domestic satisfaction from the great progress in Iraq. It’s mainly great because of what it means for the Iraqis themselves. But we can enjoy the small rewards along with the greater.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:59 am 113. Sandy P:

I just can’t believe MB never heard of Pensacola, FL.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:00 am 114. Sandy P:

Germany still had werewolves for a couple of years, SJ. Our boys learned quickly to modify their jeeps once a few got clotheslined. Japan had a leader ready to go.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:02 am 115. RogerA:

Gee–where to start. a couple of points–First, Jerry nails it when talks about the importance of face in the Arab culture–many of us gringos assume that is only an asian thing, but if you have spent more than 24 hours in a middle eastern country, face is where its at–Listen to Jerry, he knows whereof he speaks.

Second–I have been an avid reader of Roger’s site for three years now. I can appreciate Sochu John’s and Markus’ posts–they are considered and well thought out and contribute to dialoge. But have never seen such a rotten display from this anti-american idiot who goes by the psuedonym Monkyboy: He lists a roster of men whose ass he isnt fit to wipe, and then informs us because HE doesnt know where their hometowns are, they have to be poor rubes who were coereced in the military. Regretably free speech is a more important value than having to read his tripe, so unlike sites like Kos or DU, our host permits him to post his crap–But I tell you, Monkyboy: it is a good thing for you that the national defense provided by the men and women whose shoes you arent fit to clean a free good–were it divisible, you should be excluded. You are about the lowest level of filth I have seen.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:05 am 116. Buddy Larsen:

…only because FDR had decided–and Truman upheld–the actual abolishment of any practice of a huge element of the culture, the Shinto belief of the Emporer’s divinity. This was done, of course, to allow the *mechanism* of democracy to be operated. What followed, of course, was the evolution to today–the emporer as beloved icon of culture, but not able to launch a war from a privy-council.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:09 am 117. Charlie (Colorado):

I’m sorry, but all the sources I read at the time indicated that election observers and major media exit-polling were outlawed — at least, to my recollection, in knifes’-edge states such as FL and OH for the Presidential election of 2004. If you can provide counterexamples, especially for those particular states, I would be interested. …. I never heard of ANY in 2004, and I followed all news outlets with great attention. You can prove this, esp. in FL and OH?

Oh, you nincompoop. Just to pound the point home:

“About 60 mainly European election observers have taken up their posts in six states, including Florida and Ohio,….” (Washington Times 1 NOV 2004.

Exit Poll Results 2004 (CNN) I guess while you were following “all” news sources, you missed CNN.

There are about 1,280,000 hits on Google for stories about poll watchers and election judges including Ohio.

Damn. Send us another troll, Soros. This one’s broken.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:14 am 118. Steven Mitchell:

“Damn. Send us another troll, Soros. This one’s broken.”

Heh, but it is our fault, Charlie. We beat up the ones that he sends. Next time, we get an even more pitiful one. Why waste a good troll here?

I somewhat miss old whatshisname, that guy that was trolling when I first started posting here. Obviously, I don’t miss him that much, though.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:20 am 119. AlanC:

Dear Buddy,

Thanks for the laugh and the trip down memory lane!!

“…wishes to be regarded a “dr.” that …”

What a flash-back. My very first letter to the editor way back circa 1967ish (yes I was a political junkie from a way back) was in response to a letter in our local paper about VietNam by a person who thought it relevant to sign his name with his Havard class, XXX Harvard class of NN.

I had to respond because:

A) the local paper was NOT the place for the issue. It got in the way of the stories on my bowling league.

B) He hit all the commie talking points.

I happened to point out that he was obviously trying to assert his position based on his “illustrious” academic credentials since his arguments were so worthless on their own.

DrDan is just the same stuff, different day.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:30 am 120. Buddy Larsen:

RogerA–i think that’s what they call “jumping the shark”–right amongst all the theory, opinion, and other blather, bang, suddenly this ain’t all second-derivative anymore, there’s real world identification of actual people–and for God’s sake, our own boys, KIA in Iraq, used like toilet paper to leg-up in a comment-post tete-a-tete. if this isn’t a window on the moral quality of the Left, i don’t know what is.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:31 am 121. JJE:

Of course, someone like this doesn’t want to celebrate for obvious (and sad) reasons. I guess the election doesn’t merit comment.

Uh, Josh Marshall didn’t think it was unworthy of comment.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/007260.php

All that VC money and you couldn’t even afford a mouse that can scroll?

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:53 am 122. Sandy P:

SJ, we have the hindsight of 60 years on Japan and Germany.

Should we peruse Instapundit’s archives for a couple of articles written around 1946??

Dec 16, 2005 - 10:03 am 123. Buddy Larsen:

yeah, what did we know, and when did we know it?

See “time, passage of” in the “T” section, SJ.

Dec 16, 2005 - 10:18 am 124. chuck:

JJE,

Uh, Josh Marshall didn’t think it was unworthy of comment.

At 4:25 PM EDT and just a link to a US News. I believe Josh is on vacation. The link you should have given is from the day before, Larry Johnson, who pooh poohs the Iraqi election, reminds us that Arabs prefer Islamism, Shia prefer Iran, the whole region is going to hell, democracy is hopeless, and Bush better tuck tail and run before it is too late. That’s pretty much it.

All that VC money and you couldn’t even afford a mouse that can scroll?

All that education and you can’t tell time.

Dec 16, 2005 - 10:25 am 125. Rick Ballard:

“Damn. Send us another troll, Soros. This one’s broken.”

Not quite broken. Soros isn’t refreshing the database so the memebots are in continuous loop mode.

I’m curious as to whether he has tired of spending the proceeds he derives from illegal (in France anyway) activities on becoming a farce for “good” in politics. His foray didn’t save him from conviction by even a French court and the Malaysians would sure love to spend some quality time with him. Maybe the Ukraine will nail his sorry butt. It’s entertaining to think of him poring over his pilot’s flight plans making sure that there is no chance of winding up in a country that might keep him for a while.

If he cuts Dr. Dean off, Dean’s previous famous scream is going to seem a whimper.

Dec 16, 2005 - 10:47 am 126. Buddy Larsen:

He may be trying to get out of his fix in Bolivia. The silver mines he owns are registered in offshore file cabinet countries, so he skips the commodities-extraction taxes–in a country that is a whiscker away from electing a pro-cocaine president because the people need to eat. No link to his drug-law abolition plans for the USA, I’m sure.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:00 am 127. monkyboy:

Quite a few defenders of the fringe right’s ability to generate and spread fake facts.

Follow your leader, guys. Truth is the new propaganda.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:05 am 128. joe:

Sandy,

Where MB keeps his head most of the, you know it is supposely pretty dark there, it is amazing he knows where anything is.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:12 am 129. Buddy Larsen:

“Truth is the new propaganda”–as opposed to “Lies are the old propaganda”? Hey, if we’re going to flip labels on tautologies, how ’bout you change your name to “humanboy”?

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:15 am 130. markus:

Chuck — “How about Ho Chi Minh…?”

Another tyrant who posed no threat to America. Protecting the corrupt, authoritarian South Vietnamese government from him, however, required a real bloodbath of American GIs and, to a much greater degree, Vietnamese civilians. Still, your support for LBJ’s attempt to build the Great Society in Vietnam is touching.

Buddy — I think that you know that in 2003 I supported Bush decision to overthrow Saadam. And I have concurred many times on roger’s blog with the idea that today’s neocons are somehow today’s liberal idealists.

I’m one of those silly Clinton/Gore/Kerry moderate left Democrats that believe such liberal idealism needs balanced by realism and the committment to public sector competence. Gore I think was made fun of in 1999 for trying out “practical idealism” as a theme, but it sounded right on the money to me.

More in response later…I’m at work and responding to your post requires more thought than I have time for now.

But I don’t have a problem with putting up the names of soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for us. I’d leave their family out of it. But their names are in the public domain, and their memories and their significance belong to each of us. If I was dictator, photos of new KIA’s would be mailed periodically to everyone in America.

I’m guess I’m just funny that way — I find “war is hell” platitudes and generalized indifference to the COST of war by armchair hawks to be much, much more offensive than any stupid comment someone on DailyKos might make.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:16 am 131. Buddy Larsen:

I hope one of those soldier’s pals or brothers–or dads or moms–finds you someday in the halls of UCLA edu dep’t, and grabs your ear and walks you around campus on your tippy-toes. A quick n’ easy tar & feathering, which you richly deserve. And physically, not just on the internet.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:22 am 132. Buddy Larsen:

Sorry, Markus, that was aimed at your much-inferior fellow-traveler. No, it’s the way it’s done. I resent your inference that support for OIF equals disdain for the suffering. Shit, how many examples do you need? Do you enjoy the deaths of ‘good’ wars?

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:27 am 133. Buddy Larsen:

Do you ever take a flu shot? Would you have surgery to prevent an even worse calamity? No, the only leg you’ve got is that the pre-OIF Mideast was fine as was, and wasn’t likely to spark a war–ever–that would cause us to have to fight.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:31 am 134. chuck:

Markus,

Still, your support for LBJ’s attempt to build the Great Society in Vietnam is touching.

Heh, and where did I say any such thing? Your kneejerk behaviour in setting up a strawman is revealing. By the By, how do you feel about the Great Society, the Civil Rights Act, and LBJ? Or were you, you know, just being all over ironic and intellectual and all.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:35 am 135. Buddy Larsen:

And that OIF has done nothing to dissuade further 911s. Lots of hopes-for-the-best, there–and on issues where we can hardly afford to guess wrong.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:35 am 136. Jordan:

Monkyboy, that must be the single dumbest response I’ve ever seen. I’m from Lawton, OK. Heard of it? I doubt it. We have the world’s largest field artillery base in the world (Ft. Sill), we have upper and middle class citizens aplenty, we have an airport, and we have a community college. There’s even a Hindu temple here. You sir are an elitist moron. You might want to venture outside of whatever People’s Republic you live in every once in a while.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:37 am 137. chuck:

Markus,

I’m one of those silly Clinton/Gore/Kerry moderate left Democrats that believe such liberal idealism needs balanced by realism and the committment to public sector competence.

Well, I went as far as Clinton/Gore, much to my shame. Your voting for Kerry, however, was hardly a commitment to realism and competence in my view. Nor would I regard you as a moderate Democrat. I think that *I* was what used to be called a moderate Democrat, but I can’t see any space in the party for us moderates anymore.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:40 am 138. flenser:

mobyboy

Quite a few defenders of the fringe right’s ability to generate and spread fake facts.

This might sound a little less nonsensical if you had not shown up here pretending to be a lifelong Republican and fiscal conservative, and then repeated every single Kossak talking point.

Hint; lifelong Republicans do not regard to the Heritage Foundation as a “right wing slush fund”.

I’ve never understood what your type imagines you are gaining with this kind of lie. Everyone sees through you in an instant, and it just undermines everything else that you say.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:41 am 139. Buddy Larsen:

MB is “too good” for ANY war. He would’ve left slavery in place here seven generations back. But that’s fine. Negroes, like Iraqis, aren’t worth much to wobblies. They just want the power to make others follow their orders. Deep down–or not so deep–it’s a need to be feared, a compensation reaction.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:41 am 140. flenser:

Buddy

Has markus turned over a new leaf without my noticing?

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:42 am 141. Buddy Larsen:

Thank goodness his fascism is unlikely to ever harm anyone besides any student under his power who has happened to slip and not toe the PC line.

THAT student had better hope there’s lots of objective-knowledge testing, and few essay type tests to be graded by MB.

But, that’s not how it is, is it, MB?

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:49 am 142. Buddy Larsen:

Naw, flenser, it’s just that–and rick ballard has noted this, too, markus will engage on the issues from time-to-time, without calumny and perfidy.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:52 am 143. JJE:

Chuckles,

The only proposition at issue is whether Josh Marshall commented on the Iraqi elections. He did. End of story. I know it’s hard, but try to keep up.

Dec 16, 2005 - 12:55 pm 144. Luther McLeod:

flenser, same leaf that first showed up here last memorial day, crapping on a thread where folks were honoring the military that has kept us all free. Molts with the seasons I guess.

Dec 16, 2005 - 12:56 pm 145. Steven Mitchell:

“Quite a few defenders of the fringe right’s ability to generate and spread fake facts.

Follow your leader, guys. Truth is the new propaganda. ”

If MB isn’t the poster child for projection, I don’t know who is. Like Nancy Pelosi, he is the gift that keeps on giving.

Markus, you’d be approx +25% more credible if you’d lay off with the motive assumptions where your only evidence is your preconceptions.

Dec 16, 2005 - 1:13 pm 146. Buddy Larsen:

What’s a “fake fact” anyway–”accurate-but-unpleasant”?

Dec 16, 2005 - 2:05 pm 147. PeterUK:

PSEUDS CORNER,

“I am American. Every soldier is kin to me. What country are your from?”

Posted by: In Vino Veritas [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 15, 2005 09:34 PM

Or

“It’s my capacity for rational thought as a free citizen of the Nation that I love.”

Desparate Dan

Being free does not necessarily make you rational.

More imporantly which of these is more pretentious folks?

Dec 16, 2005 - 3:56 pm 148. monkyboy:

Well, well, well…the right-wing “Think” Tanks are just slush fund recipients that spread partisan b.s.:

A senior fellow at the Cato Institute resigned from the libertarian think tank on Dec. 15 after admitting that he had accepted payments from indicted Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff for writing op-ed articles favorable to the positions of some of Abramoff’s clients. Doug Bandow, who writes a syndicated column for Copley News Service, told BusinessWeek Online that he had accepted money from Abramoff for writing between 12 and 24 articles over a period of years, beginning in the mid ’90s.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2005/nf20051216_1037_db016.htm

Jack Abramoff should get a medal of freedom from the Demos…thanks to him, 2006 will be the year of Republican corruption trials.

Dec 16, 2005 - 4:28 pm 149. PeterUK:

Caryl McIntire Edwards,

PO Box 522

York, Maine 03909

(207)743-6290

email: monkyboy@megalink.net

One good turn deserves another

Dec 16, 2005 - 4:33 pm 150. jerry:

Heah Moronboy:

You said: “Jack Abramoff should get a medal of freedom from the Demos…thanks to him, 2006 will be the year of Republican corruption trials.”

I am sure the Senators Reid and Dorgan would be glad to give him that medal. After all they are on Jack’s Payroll too.

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:18 pm 151. Buddy Larsen:

Gad, if Edmund Muskie were alive today, he’d be turning over in his grave.

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:07 pm 152. Buddy Larsen:

Caryl, are you any kin to the Carl McIntire who was an intimate of J. Edgar Hoover and editor of The Christian Beacon magazine? That would put you born in the mid 40s. Why didn’t you say you weren’t the monkyboy–same spelling–@ UCLA.edu ? jeez, I feel like an idjit. Normally going after someone’s ID is verboten–your treatment is a measure of the nastiness and dumbness of your clueless and vile posts, but, hey, nobody’s perfect, what the hey. any friend of the FBI is a friend of mine, heh heh (breaks out in cold sweat, tugs collar).

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:39 pm 153. DrDan in MA:

TTFN, all you suckers at the teat of totalitarianism… Enjoy your last days in power, because the American people are fixin’ to rise up in a body and throw you all out, you unprecedentedly corrupt and morally bankrupt pack of democratic-freedom-hating criminals.

And in ‘06, I ga-run-frickin-tee you that there won’t be enough “battleground states” or “battleground Congressional districts” to steal with your illegal hackable-voting-machines and secret vote-counting-lockdown shenanigans. Why dis? Because it’s a LOT harder to steal an election when a LANDSLIDE (not a 1%-or-less FAKE MANDATE) is going down.

You ever heard of “Checks and Balances?” It’s a great concept, enshrined in the United States Constitution, aka “just a Goddamned piece of paper.” It’s way past time for the pendulum to swing back in the Left direction… and when the House of Representatives swings as strongly Democratic as I *know* it will in ‘06, it’ll be “Buh-bye, neocons and your window-dressing puppets…” You mark my words — your days of abusing this great country are numbered.

If only 1% of you who read this blog browse even a few of the sites shown at http://nightweed.com , and think about them, I’ll be happy.

The rest of you future losers — break-time is over! Back on your heads.

Troll here; over and out.

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:47 pm 154. DrDan in MA:

Whoops, stole my own thunder; trimmed that last URL too much. Try this http://nightweed.com/angrygirl.html instead…

The rest of you future losers — break-time is over! Back on your heads.

Troll here; over and out.

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:55 pm 155. Buddy Larsen:

Monkyboy is a woman, middle aged, has had some heavy heartbreak in her life, doesn’t mind discussing it publicly, and loves animals. She is not an idiot T.A. in Lotusland, but someone with a broken heart, who is understandably trying to write her way out of grief/anger (@ authority, clearly).

I vote she be treated with patience and indulgence.

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:56 pm 156. Captain Hate:

“I vote she be treated with patience and indulgence.”

I vote otherwise. This gynecological nightmare with ADD and Dr. Self-Medication prove that it’s always a losing proposition to argue with idiots.

Roger, a few weeks ago I praised the level of the discussion on this site; since then this infestation of trolls has diminished it considerably. Time to clean the stable.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:25 pm 157. Buddy Larsen:

Dr dan in MA, don’t worry, nobody will miss the stolen thunder.

Are you the vet there at Caryl’s animal shelter?

I really hope you’re not using your position of power to prevent the doggies and kittycats from making up their own minds about the president (praised be his name).

You know, my dogs like or dislike a person strongly along the person’s political emotions. This is an odd, but oft-noted (even on this site) correlation. If universal, it must make life a living hell for you!

I vote Caryl’s vet, too, be treated with patience and indulgence.

(Captain Hate, you’re right of course, but i’d alreadt written the damn post before I saw your shape-up back-to-adulthood post. Besides, it’s true about the dogs–and weird)

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:32 pm 158. Sandy P:

Well, well, well, Dr. Dan listens to Hugh Hewitt?

—

And from that little rant, it sounds like he’s projecting.

–It’s way past time for the pendulum to swing back in the Left direction..–

Oh, please, I’m 45 and most of my life has been under dem rule.

And a fine job you guys did, too. Destroyed the schools, the black family, trying to destroy the nuclear family for a vision that doesn’t work.

But with the “right” people in place, it certainly will this time.

You live in a high-tax/high cost state which is losing population, even immigrants can’t keep you afloat. (but Teddy can) You think you might understand why????

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:37 pm 159. chuck:

DrDan,

Whoops, stole my own thunder; trimmed that last URL too much. Try this Link… instead…

Hee, hee, the link is great. A complete nut case from the tinfoil house. Whatta surprise.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:47 pm 160. Luther McLeod:

You are a good and patient man BL. Your daughters who drove you crazy must love you tremendously.

Not just now, but always, you are ready to extend a hand. You set a fine example, which I sometimes cannot meet. But, more power to you. Sorry if this embarrasses you.

OTOH, for DrDan in MA, seek help.

Well, out of caution, I checked the post’s. Cap’n Hate does have a point. Nonetheless I post.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:51 pm 161. Buddy Larsen:

Jeeziz, chuck, the stand-alone header:

“An evil exists that threatens every man, woman, and child of this great nation.

We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland.”

– Adolf Hitler, proposing the creation of the Gestapo.

Tinfoil hat just couldn’t bring herself to set-up the quote with a disclaimer–liked how it looked, obviously. Decided to just leave it ambiguous. If that. At best.

Dec 16, 2005 - 7:59 pm 162. Buddy Larsen:

Aww, gawrsh, Luther…naw, it’s just practicality. The type runs on emotion, and can just as fervently love the nation’s leaders as hate them–it’s just a matter of touching the patient in the right place. It’s beyond the ken of argument, really–think ‘psychodrama’–use the ‘happening’ approach–remembering they are in a new world every minute.

\:-D

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:09 pm 163. Luther McLeod:

Yeh Buddy, you are way too modest. As to the “‘happening’ approach” and “touching the patient in the right place” scenario, well it took 9/11 for me to pull my head out of my a**. If that didn’t do it for these folks, what will?

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:30 pm 164. Buddy Larsen:

What will? Attention. If Bush made a trip out to the animal shelter, they’d gush themselves silly, and proselytize for him forever.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:40 pm 165. Luther McLeod:

Ah sh**, good answer, and you’re most likely right. But if it’s that easy, what do we gain? I’m looking for someone who can share a “fighting hole” AKA “foxhole.” Can these easily manipulated folks be trusted? Or, are they just chimes in the wind, twisted by the latest breeze?

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:59 pm 166. Syl:

Hey, I guess we should be kind and considerate. Their entire worldview of happy people all getting along and group hugs and stuff ended with a bang on 9/11.

What to do. What to do. If they give up their worldview, they’ll go insane. So they hate Bush instead.

That way they don’t have to look at the world as it really is.

Chickenshits is what I calls ‘em.

It’s sad, really. Because it does take some adjustment. I know–I had to go through it myself. But it seems some don’t even want to try.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:15 pm 167. Syl:

And you know, damn it, the reason we have to fight this war is so we can go back to being nice to everyone and having group hugs and be kind to animals and forget the rest of the world exists.

THAT’s why I’m fighting. THAT’s why I support Bush. I hate turning on the TV every day just to see if the world’s still there. But you have to get through the bad days so you can have the good ones.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:17 pm 168. Buddy Larsen:

The things we all want are on the other side of the things we don’t want.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:52 pm

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