25 Comments

1. David Thomson:

ìThe substance of Mandelbaums argument is they (meaning the rest of the world) may hate or pretend to hate us, but they really want us to continue to run things for everybody’s benefit.î

And I have no interest in being complacent about this immature behavior. Children sometimes deserve to be spanked! Should we go ballistics and start kicking some serious butt? Not necessarily, but we should demand that they treat America with respect. We are, after all, doing the heavy lifting. Parents must know when to discipline their unruly kids.

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:27 am 2. ShrinkWrapped:

I’ve always thought that Winnicott’s “good enough mother” was a very useful concept. The problem for the US, in such a characterization, is that when the child is unable to integrate the various split objects into a single whole (a more realistic mother, or parent, with both good and bad attributes), the resulting ambivalence can be extremely destructive. The demands for a perfect, idealized parent (which we see constantly in the demands of some for America’s behavior in the world to be perfect; an impossiblity, of course) reacts to any disappointment (or empathic failure)with rage. This is part of the basis of BDS. Bush, the personification of the “good enough parent”, is just a man, with all sorts of flaws; he never mastered the “style over substance” of a Clinton, and he is, as a result, hated passionately by those who insist their parent/government be perfect.

Of course, any other parent in the world, would most likely be abusive and/or neglectful of the children who depend on them. (The UN as parent, anyone?)

Dec 16, 2005 - 8:29 am 3. David Thomson:

ìwith all sorts of flaws; he never mastered the “style over substance” of a Clintonî

You need to push your argument one step further. Deep in their guts, they thought that style was all that mattered! A charming person like Bill Clinton could always talk the United States out of any difficulty. The call for Winston Churchill type substance should never be required. Clinton was a ìpeacetime dividendî president. All of the difficult choices and actions were in the past. The end of history had arrived. Do I have a right to humiliate others for being so naive? Nope, Iím just as guilty.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:39 am 4. Always right:

Yes, I agree with both of you. I just came from another site (Dr. Sanity), one comemtator’s insane rage aginst our military is all due to: However, Clinton and Moore at least can speak their native language. If you people can look at a stammering, mentally disabled cretin such as George W. Bush and feel pride in your party or your country, you are indeed deluded.

No matter how inept Clinton really is (as a president). There is no arguing with this person, you ain’t gonna change his/her mind.

Dec 16, 2005 - 10:47 am 5. monkyboy:

While the U.S. is a military threat to third-world countries, we don’t really threaten China, India, Russia or Europe with our military.

We spend over half of the world’s total of military spending…and we have to borrow from China and Japan to do so.

Not really the world’s government…more like the world’s janitor.

U.S. defense contractors benefit from all this spending, but America as a whole doesn’t.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:01 am 6. Terrye:

Well at least we didn’t interfere with Rwanda did we monkyboy? Good ol’ Bill just sat back and let a million people die.

Don’t it make ya proud?

Hell, I say we pull out of Korea and let the north nuke Seoul if they damn well feel like it.

Now let me see what other third world country have we obliterated…….

I do remember the USSR invading Afghanistan and killing a million people but they were communists, so that is ok.

And of course there was Central America. So what if Ortega had the worse human rights record of the region? The important thing for people like monky is…I really don’t know what is important for monky other than bitching.

For years the US was criticized for tolerating dictators, now the critics are complaining we are not tolerant enough of them.

Tony Blair said the world leaves the important problems to the United States and then complains about how we deal with them.

But many of our worse critics are self loathing Americans like monkyboy who have a knee jerk reaction of mindless hate every time our military is even mentioned.

To hear him tell it we don’t feed people, we don’t help people, we don’t do anything remotely good for anyone. We just show up every now and then to bomb them.

He hates his country, and is ashamed of it. Why he does not move to some nice place Like China or Cuba or or North Korea or Iran is beyond me. Let him run his mouth there. After all this is a police state right? So what is the difference monkyboy?

Poor little monky boy, his little head is hung in shame because America sucks.

Why can’t we be more like the UN and only give food and medicine to children who perform sex acts for our servicemen? Now there is an organization for monkyboy to look up to. Yep, those are his kind of people.

That silly Bono does not know what he is talking about praising the US and Bush, does he not know we are the source for all evil on the planet?

Roger owns this place and it is his call but in my humble opinion he would be justified in banning you monkyboy. You are spiteful.

Dec 16, 2005 - 11:23 am 7. monkyboy:

Doesn’t it bother the fringe right that all you can do to argue a point is make up imaginary reponses to imaginary positions of your opponents?

How about arguing facts once in a while?

We can barely control Iraq, a country of 25,000,000.

China has 1,300,000,000 people.

We could land our entire military force on the beaches south of Shanghai and the Chinese would just laugh at them and put them to work as security guards at the new Hong Kong Disneyland and repossess the equipment they’ve been lending us the money to buy.

Dec 16, 2005 - 12:01 pm 8. Bostonian:

MB,

We are not trying to “control” Iraq, you fool. The people of Iraq are our allies. We are trying to help them form a democracy, which *they* then get to control.

****

How many times must it be repeated to you?

The war on terrorism is a WAR OF IDEAS, a war between the idea of democracy & free will and the idea of Islamofascism, which requires subjugation–in *all* things–to the 8th century.

Dec 16, 2005 - 12:22 pm 9. Terrye:

China??

Monky boy if all we wanted to do was control Iraq, we could have pretty well blasted the place to oblivion a long time ago. There would not have been much left to control.

If we were really the kind of people you feverishly claim that we are the whole shooting match could have been over in Iraq and Iran and Syria a long time ago.

Needless to say if those nice people in Iran had that kind of power their first order of business would probably be to finish the job Adolf Hitler started.

With the avid and adoring support of a lot of people that say they are believers in human rights. Kill the Zionists and all will be well.

As for the right, just the other day I was accused of being a “typical leftist”.

It is too bad that the crazies left and right can not just lock themselves in a big room somewhere and leave the sane people the hell alone.

Dec 16, 2005 - 12:31 pm 10. monkyboy:

If we were really the kind of people you feverishly claim that we are the whole shooting match could have been over in Iraq and Iran and Syria a long time ago.

Wrong.

The whole point is to drag Iraq out as long as possible so Halliburton can continue to supply our troops with $100 slices of pizza prepared by Phillipinos making $1 a day.

With the Republicans…it’s all about the money.

Dec 16, 2005 - 1:08 pm 11. ex-democrat:

children can be difficult. apes on the other hand should not be let in the house.

Dec 16, 2005 - 1:33 pm 12. Terrye:

You know something monkyboy, anyone simple enough to believe that Bush and Blair went through all this for a defence contract to Halliburton is too silly to talk to.

Dec 16, 2005 - 2:24 pm 13. monkyboy:

And yet…the U.S. government writes $10 billion worth of checks to Halliburton and their ilk every single month we are in Iraq.

Combine that with the Republican bills that slashed Food Stamps, Childhood Nutrition and Student Loan funding while at the same time giving millionaires yet another tax break that passed this week and…it’s hard to see things any other way.

Dec 16, 2005 - 2:42 pm 14. ex-democrat:

terrye – save your breath for the organ-grinder.

Dec 16, 2005 - 4:47 pm 15. chuck:

MB,

Combine that with the Republican bills that slashed Food Stamps, Childhood Nutrition and Student Loan funding while at the same time giving millionaires yet another tax break that passed this week and…it’s hard to see things any other way.

You do know that this method of penis enlargement doesn’t actually work, right?

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:16 pm 16. larry:

MB, don’t let facts get in the way of your talking points.

Fact: National defense is one of very few legtimate functions of the federal governmment.

Fact: Since the ‘03 “tax cuts for billionaires”, federal revenues have sharply increased.

Fact: Current defense spending is historically low, as budget share or % of GDP.

Connect the dots. Defense spending isn’t the cause of the federal deficit. If it were, well we are at war, you know. We’ll have to spend whatever it takes to get it done.

BTW, unemployment’s historically low, too. Why don’t we let Mom and Dad feed their children?

I’d give you cites for the facts I’ve mentioned, but I’m old. you’re young. You obviously need the exercise.

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:27 pm 17. larry:

MB, do your masters at DU/MOVEON/KOS bother to tell you that Brown & Root is one of less than a handful of companies capable of doing the work? Or that other administrations, including Clinton’s, awarded them billions in no-bid contracts because of that?

Dec 16, 2005 - 5:35 pm 18. monkyboy:

Fact: National defense is one of very few legtimate functions of the federal governmment.

Libertarian twaddle is not fact, Larry. When are you guys gonna set up your own country and stop posting on the U.S. government funded and invented internet?

Unemployment as a percentage is about where its been for a long time. As the country grows, more and more people are unemployed and living in poverty.

Real median wages continue to fall in the U.S. – 6 years in a row now. It’s great to be rich in Republican America. If you’re not rich…just look at New Orleans to see your future under these jackals…

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:03 pm 19. chuck:

MB,

just look at New Orleans to see your future under these jackals…

Blanco, Nagin, and the rest of the corrupt Louisiana Democrats do seem to be a harbinger. Best reason there is not to let those suckers back into power.

Dec 16, 2005 - 6:09 pm 20. Syl:

monkyboy needs a basic lesson in economics.

U.S. defense contractors benefit from all this spending, but America as a whole doesn’t.

Or at least a flowchart of where the money goes.

Defense contractors hire people. Those people make salaries from the money defense contractors make from the products those employees make. Moneys leftover go into R&D for new product development, for opening up new plants which hire more people who make salaries to feed their families and pets.

Defense contractors don’t just wave a wand and hand out armored vehicles or anything else. They PAY employees to make them.

And those employees, with the money they make from their defense contract employers might even buy you a Christmas present this year. Or at the very least spend some cash at the mall.

It’s your damn ignorance, monkyboy, that is so frustrating.

I didn’t know this shit either a couple of years ago but you’d better believe I didn’t want to sound as stupid as you do when I was arguing so I made sure I learned it.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:44 pm 21. Syl:

monkyboy

While the U.S. is a military threat to third-world countries, we don’t really threaten China, India, Russia or Europe with our military.

Why aren’t you ashamed to be seen in public?

Of course we don’t threaten India…India is an ally, you jerk. We have no reason to threaten Russian or Europe or even China for that matter.

Why didn’t you mention Iran? For all the talk about our broken military, Iran doesn’t believe a word of it. Neither does Syria. They know damn well that they could be next.

And in the continuing line of false ‘facts’ you spout, the government does not fund the internet.

monkyboy

Get yourself some new gurus. Your current ones are failing you.

Dec 16, 2005 - 9:53 pm 22. monkyboy:

I stayed up late last Friday watching the Canadian Curling Championship. Great match, 8-7 was the final score. Odds are good only a handful of my fellow Americans were watching along with me.

Iran is the same way. No matter how hard you guys try, few Americans care about Iran. Harsh language isn’t an act of war. North Korea and Pakistan already have nukes. Congress will never approve military action against Iran after seeing how this administration handled Iraq.

It is nice to have a place to share your obscure interests, though:

http://www.curling.ca/news/articles/1211161948.asp

Dec 16, 2005 - 10:42 pm 23. john:

I agree with you the way you view the issue. It is also interesting to see different viewpoints & learn useful things in the discussion.

Dec 17, 2005 - 12:28 am 24. ElMondo:

“Fact: Current defense spending is historically low, as budget share or % of GDP.”

To buttress Larry’s statement there (and also to avoid directly feeding the troll): He’s right. The highest percentage of defense spending relative to the Gross Domestic Product was in 1945, when it was nearly 38% of GDP (http://www.truthandpolitics.org/military-relative-size.php#gdp-graph). The next highest was in 1952 when it was a touch about 13% of GDP. Since then? Under 10%. When Reagan was president in the 80’s, it’s fluctuated from 6.2% in ‘86 to 5.8% when he left office. When Clinton was in office, it ran down from 4.8% of GDP to 3.0% when the current president (Bush) was elected. The latest estimate of defense spending as percentage of GDP was for 2003, when it was estimated to be 3.3% (http://www.countryfacts.com/unitedstates/military).

It’s true that America is financing a lot of debt, but the military spending is not the big ticket item on that bill.

Like a documentary on ancient Rome I once saw said (I have to paraphrase here; don’t have the exact quote): What’s not amazing is that the US has such large military capacity. What is amazing is that, relative to it’s spending power, it’s achieved that feat relatively cheaply. I’m not about to say that the military is cheap, so don’t misread that. All I’m saying is that many countries spend far more as a percentage of their total wealth that the US does. Again, estimated 3.3% of GDP in 2003.

Bottom line: Military spending is not what’s weighing down the total budget. It’s not driving America into the poorhouse.

Dec 17, 2005 - 9:16 am 25. larry:

I’m gonna shoot from the hip. Unemployment is NOT where it’s been for a long time. It went down recently faster than the population grew. More are employed, fewer unemployed, than just a handful of years ago. Prove otherwise, MB.

Dec 17, 2005 - 7:30 pm

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