I’ve never been much for hunting. I only did it once, as a Hemingway excercise in Spain when I was twenty-five. But when I saw the splattered corpse of the rabbit I shot, I felt sick and couldn’t even eat the stew that night, which, as I recall, contained my favorite saffron sauce. Since then, the only hunting I have done is the kind described in Sir Thomas Wyatt’s “Whoso list to hunt….” I really enjoyed that, a lot, but am a happily married man now and in retirement.
Still, as a man, like VP Cheney, whose age has the dreaded 6 in front, I can sympathize with the desire to get up and boogie, especially if you have, like the Vice President, a dubious medical history that encourages you otherwise. You have to fight time by pursuing the hobbies you enjoy, physical ones above all. But what I don’t get is that a man as smart as the Veep didn’t immediately report the shotgun accident. Did he actually think for a moment that it wouldn’t come out? It’s hard to believe that. Perhaps he was afraid the accident was more serious than it apparently is. But if it was, all the more reason to report it. Again, however, I can’t get all exercised about it. What we have here is something quite predictable and normal - human cowardice. It’s not pretty, but it sure is commonplace. Another way to look at it is a lack of grace under pressure. Hemingway knew about that when he wrote one of his great hunting stories - “The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber.” Perhaps Dick Cheney should reread it before he dusts off his shotgun again.
UPDATE: Having read the comments below, I’m reconsidering my position on this. [Hey, that's how blogging's supposed to be.-ed. Well, I said I didn't know much about hunting.]
MORE: Considering the recent relevations about Mr. Whittington’s heart, I’m still not sanguine about how Cheney handled this. He is Vice President, not a private citizen. At the same time, the press is ridiculous in its over reatction. No one shines here.
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102 Comments
1. cthulhu:About 2/3 of the way through the video, I just got overwhelmed by the sense of entitlement among these reporters. “Why didn’t you tell us about the event when you had no idea how serious it was?” “How long did it take you to tell us what Cheney had done when it could have been anywhere from a bee sting to death in seriousness?”
I don’t recall anything in the Constitution that says that every weekend event in an elected official’s life has to be disclosed in a certain number of hours. Or, for that matter, at all.
If the press is actually looking for more disclosure, you’d think they would be appreciative of what they got. Were I Scott McClellan, I would be disinclined to throw anything more to these sharks after this feeding frenzy. That he can keep pumping out information in the face of such abuse makes him a better man than I.
Feb 13, 2006 - 8:12 pm 2. Aitch748:The impression I have is that one of Cheney’s hunting companions didn’t let his fellow hunters know where he was and ended up walking into the line of fire. After Cheney shot the guy, his first priority was in getting him medical attention.
Frankly, I can’t get all that excited about this eighteen-hour delay either. The White House press corps was apparently miffed that they weren’t alerted first, but in all honesty the bulk of them can go jump in a lake for all I care. I don’t imagine I’d rush to keep those people clued in either, and I don’t blame Cheney for passing the info to a local reporter instead of the national media.
Frankly again, the press has cried wolf way too many times for me to start giving them the benefit of the doubt now.
Feb 13, 2006 - 8:20 pm 3. Luther McLeod:Actually, were it I, “reporting” would be the last thing on my mind.
Feb 13, 2006 - 8:22 pm 4. David Thomson:This so-called ìshootingî is a relatively boring incident. The guy was hit by mere bird shot! This is not even close to being shot with a high powered rifle. Many so-called victims find it to be a laughable experience. I would imagine that rarely do people even file a police report. It is much ado about nothing.
Feb 13, 2006 - 8:40 pm 5. scribe10:Roger you should read Ortega Y Gasset’s short essay Meditations on Hunting.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1885106181/ref=ase_philosophyresour/002-3209919-4689623?n=283155&tagActionCode=philosophyresour
It’s marvellouos exploration of the philosophical meaning of hunting which I am sure you will enjoy.
Feb 13, 2006 - 8:40 pm 6. Insufficiently Sensitive:There’s a cultural gap here, and despite his usual good sense and empathy for all participants in a discussion, Roger seems committed to the journalist side. In their view, a story about a celebrity trumps all else in importance, particularly if one’s high position in the government might be damaged by suitably massaged reporting. Association with guns is prima facie evidence of wrong behavior to them.
Farm boy here speaking, raised in hunting and gun culture. There’s no way that Cheney could not have been horrified at unintentionally nailing an old friend with a load of birdshot. Not one reporter has had the human empathy to understand this, and it goes unremarked in the stories. OF COURSE his attention was wholly focused on first securing medical attention, and then standing by. The psychological self-penalties for failure to do so, to a conscientious hunter, enormously outweigh the need to play Paul Revere and inform the public at the first instant, or send a rep to do so.
I posit that Cheney knew very well that the story would be fully reported, and didn’t give a damn, regardless of consequences. He knows from years of class 5 hurricanes of press animosity that he’d get neither sympathy nor fair treatment.
His concern was and is properly with the victim, regardless that the shootee suffered the wound largely through his own thoughtless behavior of entering a hunt zone unannounced.
Feb 13, 2006 - 8:49 pm 7. DEagle:Wow! I just can’t believe the MSM is getting so worked up about this! I’m sorry, but this seems like such a tivial matter compared to the wild theories that are being advanced. Mercy…
Feb 13, 2006 - 9:33 pm 8. Roger:My sympathies are not with the journalists, Insufficiently Sensitive.. at all. I just think Cheney should have anticipated this onslaught and acted accordingly. He is the Vice President, after all. It comes with the job description.
Feb 13, 2006 - 9:46 pm 9. jaimeshawn:I’m not sure what the story is ’supposed’ to be. What possible significance is a minor mishap?
I’ve done lots of hunting at Hastings Island in the Sacramento Delta - and in the close space where most hunting was done, I’ve been shot dozens of times. For some reason hunters, that don’t have much experience, tend to shoot when the bird passes a tall vertical object, like a person or a tree. Those of us out there a lot learn to turn and take it in the back of our jackets - usually it’s no big deal, because birdshot quickly loses speed. I’ve never heard of anyone reporting it.
I would guess that Cheny doesn’t spend much time behind a shotgun - It’s probably not possible with being as busy as he is with being vice-President - Is that news? “Vice President too busy to hunt much!”? Or is the point that he used a really small bore shotgun? “Vice President uses small shotgun to hunt quail!”?
Feb 13, 2006 - 9:50 pm 10. Insufficiently Sensitive:Roger, glad you’re not with the journalists.
But I maintain that Cheney could logically feel offstage, first because he’s out in the rough in Texas, and second because his first priority in that situation would be to see to it that there was aid and comfort for the friend he’d unintentionally hurt. Is it unthinkable that this might rank higher in his scheme of things than the 100% predictable press reaction - which would have occurred no matter what the timing of their notification?
Feb 13, 2006 - 10:58 pm 11. Charlie (Colorado):Roger, I think I’m with the folks saying there’s a cultural division here, if not with the notion that you’re with the “journalists”. In the intervening two days, I’ve talked with at least three or four acquaintances who have either gotten a little peppered or have peppered someone else. It was reported to the local sherriff — after all, they did get an ambulance, you can’t keep something like that quiet in King County — and Smoking Gun has a copy of the Parks and Wildlife Report.
What Cheney didn’t do is call a press conference. Why? Because it was a minor accident. It was a little serious — bad luck and it could have cost Whittington an eye. It would have been more serious if a man Whittington’s age had broken an ankle.
The only difference is a bunch of city folks running around with their hair on fire, screaming “eeeek! A gun!”
Feb 14, 2006 - 4:03 am 12. Terrye:Roger:
This is rare… I disagree with you.. They filed a sheriff’s report. They got the guy medical attention. They got hold of family and all that. If Cheney had called a press conference immediately we would have seen the howling begin a few hours sooner. That is all. There is no indication Cheney tried to bury anything. After all the reporter who broke the story was notified of the incident, it was not some big secret.
I live in the country and unlike the Washington press corps apparently I really do know people who own guns and hunt. The first priority is to take care of people, not pander to a hostile press. The whole incident is being taken out of context and blown out of all proportion. There seems to be a lot of that going around lately.
Feb 14, 2006 - 4:21 am 13. David Thomson:ìI just think Cheney should have anticipated this onslaught and acted accordingly.î
He didnít? I donít see anything that Dick Cheney could have done to avoid criticism. The MSM is simply out to get him. What if the Vice-President had issued an immediate press release? He would have then been accused of being cold and unconcerned about his friend. Cheney cannot win with the elitist journalistic community. Heís dammed if he does, and damned if he doesn’t.
Feb 14, 2006 - 4:50 am 14. Curmudgeon:I have to agree with the general tenor of the other commenters: there was no meaningful delay, and this is an absolute non-story. Admittedly, it has to be embarrassing to make a mistake like this, but similar things happen to us all. The only significance to this story is the confluence of two of the media’s biggest bogeymen, guns and Cheney. Chthulu mentioned having to stop watching two thirds of the way throught the press conference. He (she, it?) has more forebearance than I. I saw a brief snippet when the sound was turned down, and just seeing the body language of the press questioners angered me so much I had to switch to the cartoon network. My hat’s off to McClellan; I wouldn’t last ten minutes in his job before committing violence.
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:08 am 15. Bob_R:I’ll disagree too, Roger. First, unless some new information comes up showing that Cheney acted recklessly I think this will blow over quickly. Cheney screwed up (any time your gun hits something you didnít intend it to you have screwed up) but acted appropriately and quickly. Medical attention was immediate. Law enforcement was notified quickly. Family members were contacted right away. The delay in contacting the major media outlets gave his friends a few hours to prepare for the onslaught and clarified the situation so that people could give clear, definitive answers rather than fragments of information. Yes, Scott McClellen had a tough morningís work. So what? For clearly self-interested reasons this is a big deal to ìmedia typesî (in pajamas or suits), but it is going to be ignored by the rest of the country.
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:17 am 16. Ed Poinsett:This is a non-story from the beginning. A friend walks into the line of fire of a bird shooter. He’s at fault as he gets peppered with birdshot. Immediate medical attention is arranged and the local EMS responds. The last thing that needs to be done is a PRESS announcement. To bird shooters, it’s still a non-story. To others, they’re desperately to make it into something it isn’t.
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:25 am 17. cleek:Not one reporter has had the human empathy to understand this, and it goes unremarked in the stories. OF COURSE his attention was wholly focused on first securing medical attention, and then standing by. The psychological self-penalties for failure to do so, to a conscientious hunter, enormously outweigh the need to play Paul Revere and inform the public at the first instant, or send a rep to do so.
my my. what a lot of mindreading - talk about your “human empathy”, you’re using telepathy ! and all to defend a guy who hasn’t yet made the effort to do the simple and most obvious thing in the world: take 2 minutes to stand in front of the reporters and tell the public he’s sorry about the accident and worried about his friend.
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:28 am 18. Wellspring:I agree with Bob_R on this one. First off, you’re right in saying that eventually the press would find out anyway. But rather than assume that Cheney was procrastinating, I’d prefer to think that he was instead preparing for disclosure.
Those 18 hours were the difference between “Cheney Shot Fellow Hunter– Life Hangs In Balance” and what we have. How many hours would have been appropriate to wait? One? Five?
There are more important people out there than the press and pundits. Let them wait in line. If a week had gone by, there might be some cause for concern. As it stands, I don’t think there’s anything to get up in arms about.
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:29 am 19. Bob_R:cleek, I realize your statement that standing in front of reporters is the “most obvious thing in the world” is hyperbolic. But Iíve been hearing it enough that Iím starting to get the idea that there are people in the world who really think, ìOh God! Heís been hit. Call a press conference!î Cheney did the MOST obvious things in the correct order. Yes, he owes the public the full truth, but he has no moral obligation to the demands of the 24 hour news cycle. Rogerís (and your) criticism is not about substance. It is about how best to handle the media ñ spin. Iím starting to think that the delay was a brilliant plot by Karl Rove to get the media to make fools of themselves. What do you want to bet that Dana Millbank is having a worse morning than Harry Whittington?
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:54 am 20. David Thomson:This is the very first question the leftist Washington media subconsciously asks: how can we slant the story to hurt the Bush administration? What more does one need to know?
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:56 am 21. TomTom:Cheney did the right things after the shooting accident. Armstrong, the ranch owner and hostess, did not…She called the press.
Feb 14, 2006 - 6:23 am 22. cleek:The press is 1) pissed off they weren’t given priority (though Roger seems to side with them) and 2)as usual derelict in their task. None have emphasized the minor, albeit painful, nature of injury from #8 shot from a 28 guage shotgun at 30 yds; none have asked, why, if the injury is not life-threatening, is the injured in an intensive care unit. (As a doc, I suspect coexisting health problems, or something unrelated and discovered in the ER). Perhaps the ICU is not medically necessary, and he’s there to pre-empt press criticism.
The injury rate of hunting is a lot lower than the injury rate of soccer or football. But the press, Leftist as is is, is for gun “control”.
Most journalists are invertebrates.
It is about how best to handle the media ñ spin.
of course it is.
the obvious way to handle this would’ve been for Cheney to give a quick and honest statement and be done with it. but obviously, he chose not to - and that is a decision about how to handle the media spin, as well. Cheney’s not a newcomer to this - he has to know all his actions, since he’s the VP, are under the media microscope. he chose his path.
Iím starting to think that the delay was a brilliant plot by Karl Rove to get the media to make fools of themselves.
i do love how every time this administration does something wacky, its defenders come back with “it’s all a brilliant plan by Karl Rove”. reminds me of the way true believers explain natural disasters as all being part of God’s Plan. faith is a mighty thing.
Feb 14, 2006 - 6:31 am 23. Bob_R:cleek- Yes, Cheney chose his path and he chose to handle the media this way in this event. I’m sure he appreciates that his critics have no substantive criticism of his actions and are just trying to help him manage the media in the way to cause him the least amount of political difficulties.
On the Rove line - three points. (1) It’s a joke. (2) It’s on you. (3) It gets funnier every time you fall for it. (I hope you don’t mind my using “you” to stand for everyone whose eyes start to bulge when
Feb 14, 2006 - 6:57 am 24. David Thomson:Rove is mentioned.)
I have given this incident some thought over the day or so. It is my adamant conclusion there was nothing Dick Cheney could do to avoid criticism. Nothing whatsoever! The Republican hating media would inevitably find something to complain about.
Feb 14, 2006 - 7:16 am 25. cleek:I’m sure he appreciates that his critics have no substantive criticism of his actions and are just trying to help him manage the media in the way to cause him the least amount of political difficulties.
he’s a politician. this is politics. tell me honestly you guys wouldn’t be giggling yourselves silly if someone like Murtha pulled that trigger.
Feb 14, 2006 - 7:19 am 26. ray_g:All of this concern over this so-called delay is absurd. Are people seriously suggesting a cover up because a time period of less than 1 day elapsed between the incident and formal press notification? I repeat, absurd. This story was of no immediate importance except to those directly involved, and they had more pressing concerns than talking to the press. Less than a day! Let’s get real here folks. Face it, except for things like traffic reports and flood warnings, nearly all of the so-called news can wait a couple of days before it is reported and nothing much is changed. Except perhaps there would then be time to get the facts of the story correct before broadcasting it.
Feb 14, 2006 - 8:07 am 27. Bob_R:Heck, now that we know the Whittington is OK, I’m giggling myself silly anyway. Even if no one (and this is a REAL national crisis) has come up with a GOOD Aaron Burr joke.
Feb 14, 2006 - 8:12 am 28. LemonDrop:It’s a question of “I’ll be damned if I do and damned if I don’t” and quite frankly I’m astonished at the feeding frenzy of MSM.
MSM should report on something truly newsworthy. Like all the hidden whispers of stories that don’t make it to the forefront. Like the little tidbit I read about WMD being transported to Syria. Well, can I have more info on THAT? Or is the hunting ACCIDENT more important? Or how about all the white farmers being killed (but being tortured first) in South Africa? Yeah, ya’ll don’t know about that do you?
Figures.
Feb 14, 2006 - 8:33 am 29. Insufficiently Sensitive:The cleek is so bereft of empathy that it may have a better claim to my handle than I do.
Obviously it lacks a certain amount of human experience, certainly with hunting culture, and also with press conferences.
No press conference lasts for only 2 minutes, particularly when the logistics of summoning the lordly Washington press corps to a rural location 1500 miles away are considered. Once those ‘reporters’ have made the trip, they’ll want considerably more than a pound of flesh from the interviewee.
The cleek should consider a hypothetical case of non-fatally backing over its own 4-year-old daughter while at the wheel of a Prius. Would it be more in the interest of humanity to ensure aid and comfort to said daughter, or arrange a press conference to investigate the intersection of cleekitude with mea culpa?
Feb 14, 2006 - 8:38 am 30. cleek:The cleek should consider a hypothetical case of non-fatally backing over its own 4-year-old daughter while at the wheel of a Prius. Would it be more in the interest of humanity to ensure aid and comfort to said daughter, or arrange a press conference to investigate the intersection of cleekitude with mea culpa?
you’ll note that i am not the VP of the US. different rules, skippy.
Feb 14, 2006 - 8:46 am 31. David Thomson:How cynical am I? My imagination is getting the better of me. I can hear it now:
ìOh my God, Dick Cheney is so cold and calculating. His buddy hasnít even arrived at the hospital and all he can think of is damage control. What is the first thing he does? The Vice President sends out a press release! Has he no shame. A decent man does not manipulate the press at a time like this. Al Gore would have likely waited until the next day to tell the world. Republicans are just so disgusting.î
Feb 14, 2006 - 9:09 am 32. Interested Conservative:Well - it’d be quite the story if he’d sprayed (technically correct hunting term) Monica Lewinsky (who like so much else associated with them, has debased the language), but as it is, he did report the incident.
As a humorous talking head notes when mocking the press, “your right to know supercedes your right to exist”. Especially if you’re a GOP politician, but he still reported it.
Feb 14, 2006 - 9:18 am 33. mojo:Why didn’t he notify the media? Why the hell should he? They’re supposed to be journalists - let ‘em journalize, or whatever. It ain’t my job to keep ‘em up to date.
And I’d really like to see Scott M. just totally lose it with some of the WHPC lizards. “What part of ‘NO COMMENT’ was unclear, twit?”
Feb 14, 2006 - 9:20 am 34. Charlie (Colorado):Cleek, the thing that’s tough to figure out here is the part about how it’s obvious that the first thing you should do is give a press statement. To me, at least, that’s not in the slightest way obvious, in part because this isn’t at all unusual or odd. I’ve been asking around for a couple of days, and I can’t find anyone who does this kind of birding who finds it unexpected or unusual. To steal a trope from Powerline, would you expect Cheney’s first thought to be a press conference if they’d been deep-sea fishing and Cheney had accidently hooked Whittington, requiring a trip to the hospital to remove the #10 hook? Or if Whittington had fallen and broken a hip or an ankle?
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:04 am 35. CERDIP:Cheney should offer to allow the Washington Press Corps to embed with him next time he goes hunting…
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:12 am 36. Charlie (Colorado):TomTom, you get the remote diagnosis award: Whittington appears to have thrown a clot or had a bit of shot migrate, leading to atrial fib and maybe a minor infarct. He’s asymptomatic but they’re watching him.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:22 am 37. Charlie (Colorado):I take back the “infarct” part: they’re saying there was a little bit of ischemia caused by a-fib from irritation. No blockages.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:29 am 38. markus:Another possible explanation for the delay: Cheney and others had been drinking before the accident occured.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:32 am 39. Keith_Indy:As others have commented, Cheney, et al, did report the incident to the PROPER AUTHORITIES…
The press is just miffed that they weren’t deemed the proper authorities, and that a small town newspaper got the scope before them.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:35 am 40. markus:Follow up to the preceding comment –
from the AP:
Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said that about an hour after Cheney shot Whittington, the head of the Secret Service’s local office called the Kenedy County sheriff to report the accident. ìThey made arrangements at the sheriff’s request to have deputies come out and interview the vice president the following morning at 8 a.m. and that indeed did happen,î Zahren said.
At least one deputy showed up at the ranch’s front gate Saturday evening and asked to speak to Cheney but was turned away by the Secret Service, Zahren said. There was some miscommunication that arrangements already had been made to interview Cheney the next morning, he said.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:38 am 41. Charlie (Colorado):What? Someone drinking? On a Texas quail hunt?
Oh, Markus, perish the thought.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:47 am 42. Bob_R:Roger, I’ll give you another reason to rethink your position. Take a look at Howard Kurtz in the Post this morning. Has a roundup of the editorials in the major papers and several blogs. Almost none of the criticism is substantive. (Perhaps the worst is that he failed to pay for a $7 stamp for the $125 hunting licence he obtained.) The criticism is almost all self serving. “We should have been informed immediately.” Cheney’s worst sin is disrespecting the MSM deadlines. My guess is that they will suffer more for their self-serving complaints than he will for his treatment of the media.
On another question that you and Kurtz both ask, “Did he think for a minute that it would not come out?” It’s hard to believe that when he filed reports with the Sheriff and the Park Service within minutes of the accident. It was then a matter of public record - the legal representatives of the public had been notified.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:56 am 43. freetotem:At the risk of giving this issue more seriousness than it deserves, what exactly is the claim the media are making, in their contrived outrage over this incident? It appears to be that they were not immediately notified. That is what one “reporter” said during yesterday’s press conference. OK, so why is it the media should have been notified, in their view? Their claim is that it is because of the famed “public’s right to know.”
First of all, does the public have a “right” to know every single event that happens to an elected official? I don’t think so, but let’s assume they do. What is the reason the public should have such a right to know? The ostensible reason is so the voting public can make informed decisions about its elected representatives, no? So what decisions did the voting public need to make about Vice President Cheney in the hours immediately following this accident that would lead to such profound concern about the “delay” in “reporting” the incident? None, of course.
Perhaps, as some have said, this is simply about mediacentric narcissism—the press assuming that it is the center of the universe. I think that is only part of it, and the rest is just the “gotcha” culture of all those little Woodsteins out there, plus Bush/Cheney Derangement Syndrome.
Feb 14, 2006 - 10:57 am 44. Retread:Whittington will dine out on this story for months. And speaking of Whittington, I haven’t seen him interviewed. Is he refusing interviews?
As for the $7 stamp, I saw a comment from a Texan saying that it is always open season on lawyers down there, no stamps needed.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:00 am 45. Bostonian:Could the press BE any more desperate to take out the eeevil Republicans?
I cannot fathom why this story is supposed to be news, apart from the fact that it involves Republicans and guns.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:03 am 46. cleek:the thing that’s tough to figure out here is the part about how it’s obvious that the first thing you should do is give a press statement.
i never said anything about “first” - if you think i did, it’s entirely in your imagination. in fact, i haven’t seen anybody say it should have been the “first” thing he did.
but he’s had 3 days to say something about it, and all he’s done is issue a press release about his hunting license. nothing says “compassion” like discussing state gaming regulations.
I’ve been asking around for a couple of days, and I can’t find anyone who does this kind of birding who finds it unexpected or unusual.
that’s nonsense. if getting shotgunned was an expected and usual outcome of going on a hunting trip, nobody would do it. it would be an X-Treme sport and would probably be illegal in most states. it certainly wouldn’t be something foursomes of seniors would do for fun.
To steal a trope from Powerline, would you expect Cheney’s first thought to be a press conference if they’d been deep-sea fishing and Cheney had accidently hooked Whittington, requiring a trip to the hospital to remove the #10 hook?
first, again, i never said “first”. that’s a typical Powerline strawman.
second, getting hooked is nothing like getting shot with a shotgun: the man has been in the hospital for 3 days and has just suffered a heart attack because a pellet moved to his heart. but even if he did hook someone bad enough to put him in the hospital, i’d still expect a polite note or statement from the VP.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:10 am 47. cleek:And speaking of Whittington, I haven’t seen him interviewed. Is he refusing interviews?
he’s busy trying to stay alive.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:11 am 48. Captain Hate:“At least one deputy showed up at the ranch’s front gate Saturday evening and asked to speak to Cheney but was turned away by the Secret Service, Zahren said. There was some miscommunication that arrangements already had been made to interview Cheney the next morning, he said.”
Markus, I assume that you’re including this to bolster your hypothesis that Cheney had been irresponsibly drinking prior to the accident. Whether or not that was the case (and you seem to be the only poster concerned about it) if you’re in Zahren’s position, surely you can understand being skeptical about somebody showing up unannounced after having made a contrary arrangement with his office. The minimum standards of security would dictate that the deputy be turned away.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:12 am 49. Bob_R:Two units are investigating - Sheriff and Parks. I believe Parks has issued an initial report indicating no evidence of drinking was found, but I can’t find a link. Anyone?
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:14 am 50. miguelj:Hi Roger - some far-lefties are saying this is Cheney’s Chappaquiddick. (Mainstream Democrats would rather forget that episode) I agree. This is indeed like Chappaquiddick, except that:
A. Cheney wasn’t drunk.
B. he didn’t abandon Whittington to die, and
C. he wasn’t f_____ng the guy.
Other than that, it was exactly like Chappaquiddick.
BTW, didn’t anyone notice the name of the Texas county where all this happened. Kennedy County!!
How strange is *that*!?
(Update) - apparently the guy was shot in the heart. Even with birdshot, at age 78 that can’t be good. If he dies, there may be more than a few repercussions.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:44 am 51. Charlie (Colorado):Cleek, are you aware of the meaning of the word “asymptomatic”? According to the press conference, Whittington is pissed off because they won’t release him.
Miguel, he wasn’t shot in the heart. A single bird shot has migrated to where it caused some irritation in the heart, and an asymptomatic (look it up, cleek) atrial arrythmia.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:55 am 52. Charlie (Colorado):Here is the Parks and Wildlife report (via Smoking Gun). First reported to the Sheriff, neither the VP nor Whittington was visibly under the influence.
Feb 14, 2006 - 11:59 am 53. cleek:Cleek, are you aware of the meaning of the word “asymptomatic”?
i am. nonetheless, a heart attack caused by a pellet is something to be concerned about when the patient is, reportedly, still full of pellets.
According to the press conference, Whittington is pissed off because they won’t release him.
which press conference was this? (and when?)
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:02 pm 54. Charlie (Colorado):that’s nonsense. if getting shotgunned was an expected and usual outcome of going on a hunting trip, nobody would do it. it would be an X-Treme sport and would probably be illegal in most states.
The fact that you say it’s so doesn’t make it so. See…
Or …
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:11 pm 55. Charlie (Colorado):which press conference was this? (and when?)
The hospital’s press conference (the same one in which they talked about the arrythmia), within the last hour.
It does explain why they held on to him, though. From Smoking Gun it looks like he took the shot in the upper left quadrant; they must have wondered if anything might have gotten to a blood vessel. #7 birdshot it really small — takes 2 or 3 to make up a BB — and perversely they probably cause so littletrauma that they’re more likely to drift.
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:16 pm 56. cleek:The fact that you say it’s so doesn’t make it so.
right back at ya.
if getting shot enough to put you in the hospital for three days (with more expected) was routine, people wouldn’t do it - they couldn’t afford the hospital bills.
The hospital’s press conference
is there an online transript anywhere?
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:26 pm 57. ray_g:As for the $7 stamp - I just read in the LA Times(a paper not known as a conservative apologist) that the stamp is new this year and many hunters were unaware of this and the wardens are just reminding people and having them pay the $7. So that is a big non-issue too.
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:43 pm 58. RogerA:ummm–Cleek–and how often have YOU been shot by a shotgun? Just guessing, the answer is never. But thats an aside–
I ask forbearance of other hunters in the commentariat, but some basics: a shotgun and a rifle are different weapons; a shot gun has different “gauges,” ie bore sizes ranging from a high (in size) of 10 guage to a low of .410 (officially .410 is a caliber but thats a technical digression)
The VEEP (peace be upon him) was apparently using a 28 gauge–a field load for quail is probably 8’s in the first barrel and 7 and a halfs in the second–bird shot is NOT buck shot–bird shot is more like anorexic BBs esp 7 and a halfs and eights–only the 9 is smaller and is used for skeet.
The fact the Veep (PBOH) uses a 28 tells me he is a pretty good hunter because a 28 only throws 7/8 of an ounce of birdshot–and at 30 yards, you can consult a book on ballistics, but you will find the velocity of each pellet is declining dramatically–getting hit in the eye at thirty yards is probably the worst possible outcome. And I DO hope they were all wearing safety glasses.
From a hunting standpoing: is the VEEP responsible? yes, the guy pulling the trigger is always responsible.
Was the shootee in any danger? considering the panolply of secret service and communication agencies the veep has at his disposal, probably not–in fact, glad it wasnt me being shot by one of my buddies, because I would have had to walk out to wherever I left the car and drive my ass to the hospital.
There appear to be qualified physicians on this thread to address the medical issues; I assume our buddy Cleek has recently renewed his medical license; otherwise I will refer to practicing adults.
Now to the more fun stuff:
This story commands such MSM interest! Wow, what a sense of priorities–Iran is now enriching uranium, the islamic world is in chaos, Israel could join NATO, the Homeland Security Department has been pilloried by a REPUBLICAN congress–and we are looking at an effen hunting accident?
And from this hunting accident we learn, David Gregory (official spokesperson of the press corps?) sounds awfully much like my son when he was four–”you cant make and I am not going to be quiet”….WOW, impressive–Move over Edward R Murrow–your pulitzer, Mr. G, is on the way. We also see the press being unable to distinguish between rifles and shotguns, bird shot and buck shot, and in general being unable to find their butts with both hands in the dark–even worse–somehow it has escaped many in the press that the Vice President is INDEPENDENTLY elected, and just like David Gregory, doesnt have to do any thing and you cant make me. And for sheer effen idiocy, Dana Milbank shows up on a tv show wearing an orange vest–I could add that isnt it the job of the MSM to find and report rather than have news sources come to them? oh wait….
You know–you cant make this shit up–the MSM,as one of our commentariat said above, should embed themselves with the VEEP–except this time Mr. Cheney: go for the 00 buck except these people are too stupid to be shot.
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:52 pm 59. TomTom:Retread and cleek: Whittington is in the ICU. Hospitals allow only immediate family to visit ICU patients; journalists are excluded (gasp, gosh, how could they?!) thus no Whittington interview.
Feb 14, 2006 - 12:52 pm 60. RogerA:Charlie Colorado, you must be a colleague. A pellet embolus lodged in a cardiac chamber would be unlikely to generate an EKG injury pattern, which I suspect is what was seen in the ER (or was seen on CXR). So it’s likely intramyocardial. The AFP story I just read quotes the doc in the singular re the pellet, though the wordsmith uses the plural in the article’s opening, plus the phrase “heart attack”, showing yet again journalism’s keen attention to factual detail.
Cleek says: “that’s nonsense. if getting shotgunned was an expected and usual outcome of going on a hunting trip, nobody would do it. it would be an X-Treme sport and would probably be illegal in most states. it certainly wouldn’t be something foursomes of seniors would do for fun.”
Have you even been hunting, taken a course in hunter safety, fired a shot gun or owned a hunting license?
Yeah right–I didnt think so
as has been pointed out on this thread the most likely chance you have of getting peppered (thats what hunters call it) is during dove hunting. And most hunter know there is some risk it isnt very high–for example Cleek, our ever diligent MSM–have they researched any statistics on hunting accidents–Nope? didnt think so.
I would rather go hunting than drive from Moses Lake to Ephrata–much less risk of getting into an accident.
Get a clue, Cleek.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:05 pm 61. Keith_Indy:but even if he did hook someone bad enough to put him in the hospital, i’d still expect a polite note or statement from the VP.
*****
Considering that the VP spent much time with his peppered friend, I’m sure Whittington and family did get the “polite note or statement” directly from the VP…
Now, why YOU expect the VP to feel the need to come out in front of the national media and say something, is beyond me.
Wonder if we’ll hear anything from Mrs Clinton on this one???
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:05 pm 62. cleek:Have you even been hunting, taken a course in hunter safety, fired a shot gun or owned a hunting license?
actually, yes. i’ve owned a Ruger 10-22, a gift, and a Winchester 30/30, which i bought with my own money as soon as i was old enough to legally buy a gun on my own. though i’ve fired them, i’ve never owned a shotgun because i prefer the precision of a rifle.
so, Roger, i think i’ll just stop reading your post right there.
Now, why YOU expect the VP to feel the need to come out in front of the national media and say something, is beyond me.
because it’s the decent thing to do.
and, good for him, he did it. see how easy that was ?
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:20 pm 63. Charlie (Colorado):Cleek:
right back at ya.
Uh, yeah. That’s why I included sources and citations.
You’re getting confused by the word “routine.” I fractured my right ankle several years ago mountain biking. I certainly don’t fracture an ankle every time I mountain bike; none the less, an ankle fracture is a pretty routine injury in mountain biking. (Not as common as wrists and collarbones, but still pretty routine.)
I imagine the news sites will have a transcript by now — I was actually typing that more or less while the presser was on TV.
TomTom:
I’m not a practicing MD, but I can sort of play one on the net. I had all the classroom work for an MD in the course of my PhD work, and spent six years at Duke Medical School, but didn’t do the clinical work. (Long story, and I kind of wish now that I’d have gone the MD/PhD route.)
To be fair to the AFP writer, the hospital flack himself used the phrase “minor heart attack” — after which the poor ER supervisory physician worked his ass off trying to get the press to stop jumping to conclusions. (It was sort of sourly amusing — the poor guy was ready to pepper a couple of reporters himself when the flack, fearing an explosion, ended the presser.)
From various descriptions, and the Smoking Gun material, it looks like the guy was mostly hit upper left quadrant, in that mess around and under the collarbone. (Technical term. Give me a break, it’s been 15 years since medical school and I was mostly interested in myocardial action potentials anyway.) In the presser, they said they first observed the a-fib this morning while rounding, so I’m guessing that they originally held him out of caution, seeing as he’s 78 and all, just in case soemthing migrated. They suggested the a-fib was consequent to some inflammatory process.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:25 pm 64. cleek:Have you even been hunting, taken a course in hunter safety, fired a shot gun or owned a hunting license?
before you go inventing more things about my history, Roger, let me provide specific answers to all of your sub-questions. in order: yes, yes, yes and yes.
also, the next time you feel the need to construct a strawman to argue with, do us all a favor and pick a name that isn’t already being used.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:26 pm 65. RogerA:Umm so Cleek–again, you have never had a hunting license, you have never taken a course in hunter safety, and, although, unstated, you havent been hunting (unless you were poaching–see license question). In fact, all you have done is fire your 30/30? We are breathless over your experience.
umm, and you “prefer the precision of a rifle?”
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:31 pm 66. Keith_Indy:well, rifles aren’t used by bird hunters, and your post tells me you really dont have the remotest idea what you are talking about–you are BSing here, and not well.
Didn’t see anything about the VP coming out in front of the cameras and holding a press confrence about this anywhere in that link. Must need them rose colored glasses…
******
Shotgun Ballistics… http://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.com/shotgun_statistics.pdf
Found a chart which gives some specs.
for 7 1/2 shot size, you would have the following ft/lbs of energy at distance
4.11 at Muzzle
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:31 pm 67. cleek:2.86 at 10 yards
2.11 at 20 yards
1.62 at 30 yards
You’re getting confused by the word “routine.”
actually, no. i was responding to this:
“I’ve been asking around for a couple of days, and I can’t find anyone who does this kind of birding who finds it unexpected or unusual. ”
my assertion is that it is neither usual nor expected. it might be a kind of accident that is more likely to happen when hunting with shotguns, but that doesn’t make it an expected or usual event. nobody set out that day expecting to get shot, because that’s what usually happens.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:34 pm 68. Keith_Indy:Oh yeah, patterning (the spread of the shot) would be very dependent on what choke the VP was using at the time…
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:35 pm 69. cleek:Didn’t see anything about the VP coming out in front of the cameras and holding a press confrence about this anywhere in that link.
imagine my embarassment, if i hadn’t written the following way up-thread:
but even if he did hook someone bad enough to put him in the hospital, i’d still expect a polite note or statement from the VP.
whew.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:37 pm 70. Keith_Indy:yikes, his argument is so bad, he has to nitpick with the use of words…
Hey, he could be the next Democrat Party nominee for President…
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:37 pm 71. Keith_Indy:You said…
****
Now, why YOU expect the VP to feel the need to come out in front of the national media and say something, is beyond me.
because it’s the decent thing to do.
and, good for him, he did it. see how easy that was ?
****
So, come again???
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:38 pm 72. cleek:Umm so Cleek–again, you have never had a hunting license, you have never taken a course in hunter safety, blah…blah…blah…
hey Roger, how’s that foot taste?
got any more invented facts about my life you’d like to share ? i can’t wait to find out what else you think you know about me!
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:39 pm 73. RogerA:Keith–thanks, my shotshell book is out on the reloading bench–and since I use a 28 double on quail (and Wilson’s snipe) its bored full and modified–I suspect it would be a pretty tight choke for quail.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:40 pm 74. cleek:So, come again???
yes, i was less than precise in that specific response. but if you had bothered finding out exactly what it was i’ve been arguing for in this thread, you’d realize that Cheney did what i hoped he would.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:41 pm 75. TomTom:Charlie Colorado:
How coincidental….I’m a Blue Devil too!
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:42 pm 76. RogerA:we have only your word for it cleek, and from the rest of the tripe you have posted your arent getting very far. “I prefer the precision of a rifle” gave it all away.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:42 pm 77. Charlie (Colorado):Tom Tom: Oh yeah? Undergrad or Med School? I was there ‘83 to about ‘91.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:44 pm 78. Charlie (Colorado):“I’ve been asking around for a couple of days, and I can’t find anyone who does this kind of birding who finds it unexpected or unusual. “
Okay, so you’re getting confused by the words “unexpected” and “unusual.”
Same thing, though — an ankle fracture wouldn’t be an unexpected or unusual accidental injury mountain biking (or, for that matter, dove hunting, it’s easy to get a foot in a prairie dog hole or something.)
That doesn’t mean everyone who mountain bikes will inevitably break an ankle; it means that among the population of people who are accidentally injured mountain biking, ankle fractures will be common.
Most everyone I talked to either had been peppered at some time, or knew someone who had been peppered at some time. Thus, it’s not an unusual dove hunting accident.
Feb 14, 2006 - 1:51 pm 79. cleek:we have only your word for it cleek
uh huh.
“I prefer the precision of a rifle” gave it all away.
gimme a break.
surely people are allowed to prefer different weapons for their own personal reasons ? people who bow hunt obviously prefer something about bows, and people who use black powder find something about that, no ? would he “give it all away” if a bow-hunter said he’d used a shotgun or two in the past but preferred the …whatever… of bow hunting ?
or would that depend on whether he saying kind things about Cheney or not ?
Feb 14, 2006 - 2:00 pm 80. TomTom:Charlie Colorado: I left just when you arrived. I still miss Cameron Indoor!
Feb 14, 2006 - 2:05 pm 81. RogerA:The issue in question has to do with accidents involving bird hunting–in your earlier posts you had implied (or I had inferred) somehow you regarded bird hunting as accident prone–If I inferred that then bad on me.
The point is I honestly dont give a damn what kind of a weapon you hunt with or what kind of game you hunt for–this particular accident involves bird hunting, and specifically quail hunting with small guage shotguns not shooting a lot of lead–Some of the posters have pointed out, me included, that bird hunting does have some small degree of risk (less than soccer and touch football as it turns out)–accidents happen, and because of the things we talked about, eg ballisitics, shot amount, choke and range, they are, fortunately, not nearly as bad as taking a 30 grain bullet while being mistaken for a deer.
In short–this discussion, at least as to the particulars of the accident turned on bird hunting with shotguns–you have already told us you havent used a shotgun for that purpose.
In short, while you may have issues about a whole lot of other things, and, heaven forfend, you dont like the vice president, bird hunting, and the relative safety surrounding the sport, is clearly not in your area of expertise.
Feb 14, 2006 - 2:10 pm 82. Kevin Peters:Roger:
I come to this thread late and I this has already been mentioned. But the insane overreaction by the press is probably one of the reasons that Cheney delayed the press release. “Will the V.P. offer his resignation?” How absurd can you get. The police were called right away. The annoucement was made 18 hours after the incident. There was no attempt to cover it up. And from what I have read from people who hunt this is not that unusual of an incident.
The childish reaction from the White House press corp is another example of why the country has so little respect for them. I understand why the comedians are going nuts, It is fantastic, funny material. But the david Gregories of the world are treating it as if it is a scandal. By the time this is over it will get more intense coverage then the various U.N. scandals. It is crowding out coverage of the attempts by Iran to get a nuke! Twenty years from now when Gregory is asked to explain his coverage of Iran’s buildup to getting the bomb that they eventually destroyed Tel Aviv with will Gregory say, “No, I was hunting down (sorry, I know I am going to pun hell) the vastly more important Cheney quail hunting story.”
Feb 14, 2006 - 2:41 pm 83. RogerA:Kevin–you did miss one major point of the story–given Mr Gregory’s tirade, it is apparent the press corps now expect the administration to bring stories to them! Whatever happened to the concept of finding a story–It probably also suggests they are so used to leakers providing them stories, they would know how to find a story it if bit them in their butts.
Feb 14, 2006 - 2:49 pm 84. Terrye:cleek:
I live in a rural area where people do things like go hunting and most of the people I have talked to today think the press are acting stupid, do not know what they are talking about, are full of themselves and seem to be hoping the old boy will die.
Boy, that would teach Cheney now wouldn’t it?
18 hours is not that big deal as long as the injured man gets the care he needs and his family is there with him. Maybe it was his desire for privacy and his worry that his family would hear the news from some eager beaver journalist that made notifying the press not the number one priority.
Feb 14, 2006 - 2:59 pm 85. Mark McGilvray:I haven’t found anything really specific on how Cheney accidentally shot his friend. Yes, a 28 ga is a light shotgun, but can kill you with even 7-1/2 or 8 shot. My grandfather used to kill deer in his roses and raspberries with a .410 and #6 shot, at about 10 yards and a shot in the neck. They went down as thought struck with the hammer of God.
No hunter in his right mind goes out expecting to get shot. Safety becomes a huge issue with more people in the immediate area, whether hunting or not, and the type of cover. Quail love brush and some of it can be really dangerous to hunt, because you cannot see others or what’s behind your shot. Or, a bird comes up and the shooter swings on it with tunnel vision and shoots. I don’t know what happened with Cheney, but he is responsible for the accident, and seems to have acted responsibly. I don’t censure him. Hunting can be dangerous. I was hunting with two friends (more than I like to hunt with) and for quail in brush that was from 6 to 12 feet tall. I went into it about 50 yds and called to my buddies and told them I wasn’t going to hunt this jungle because we couldn’t see each other (I was scared shitless). I went back to the car and ten minutes later both followed, thoroughly spooked by the lack of visibility. I hunt mainly on private clubs and it is definitely not neighborly to drop shot on your fellows. I have read several people the riot act for this, though I have never been hit. Blaze orange hat and vest, a whistle are some of the smartest money a hunter can spend. Guns are very unforgiving - you cannot un-shoot someone.
Feb 14, 2006 - 3:57 pm 86. Kevin Peters:Terrye:
The press can’t stand that Cheney thinks of other things first instead of them. First Cheney and the secret service checked on the victim and called for medical help, The police were there in 30 minutes. There was no attempt to cover anything up, this hysteria is over how quickly the Washington Press Corp was told. They act as if it was 18 days instead of 18 hours. So they told the local press first. They are probably hooked up to A.P. so it wasn’t a question about whether the story was going to get out. They, as usual, are making the story about themselves and their bruised little egos and they are trying to blow this up into some sort of scandal. I hope Gregory and company keep it up. They will talk amongst themselves and huff and puff and then they will be shocked when they talk to someone from beyond the beltway who calls them idiots. Today, Gregory tried to say that Cheney was expecting to get better treatment then a normal person would in the same situation. what a jefk. These types of accidents happen all the time and “the normal people” don’t have a press spokesman nor do they put out a press release. The police investigate and unless there are criminal charges no one gives a rip. Gregory lives in such a bubble that he has no idea how stupid that question sounds.
Feb 14, 2006 - 4:10 pm 87. David:Mark, around here we have some very think brush. The hunters I see wear thick flannel shirts under a quilted vest under a nylon orange jacket with a high collar. They wear eye protection and ear protection, groin protection and shoooting gloves. Now they are not going out expecting to be shot, but they certainly know being shot is a possibility. Of the half dozen birders I know at least four of them have been shot once, though in three of the cases the shot didn’t make it through the heavy clothing and the last only had one wound in the cheek. I do agree that Dick Cheney as the shooter is ultimately responsible, and he too agrees.
By the way, my grandma shot a trespasser in the butt with bird shot and there was nothing he could do legally to get back at her, at least not at that time. In Colorado back then birdshot was consdered non-lethal. A pellet gun is more dangerous, IMHO.
Heck 50 years ago a more savvy press who didn’t know the make would have asked immediately if it was a side-by-side or an under-over (or heaven forbid a one shot).
Feb 14, 2006 - 4:32 pm 88. Charlie (Colorado):Mark, what I’ve heard/read from people who seem to actually have a clue (eg, not the ones who said he’d been shot with “28 gauge buckshot”), it was a 28 gauge side-by-side, with a 3/4 oz bird load of 7 1/2 shot, and Whittington was about 30 yards away. No word about the choke, but Cheney’s supposed to be a crack shot, and it’s sport doving, so I’m guessing it’s fairly tight. Looking at the Smoking Gun copy of the Parks report, it looks like the center of the pattern was over his left shoulder.
Feb 14, 2006 - 5:30 pm 89. klrfz1:The one question I still have - did Dick Cheney get the quail he was shooting at? I haven’t seen even speculation much less a report on this vital question.
I remember all the ridicule of President Gerald Ford for tripping and for beaning spectators with golf balls. I still laugh at Chevy Chase’s impersonations of Ford. Good times. Remember how much Dan Quayle was mocked for misspelling potatoe? Which he didn’t even do!
If the press had reported this accident in a responsible manner, only Cheney would be open to ridicule. He’s an adult, he can take it (and has). Now the Washington Press Corps has opened themselves up to ridicule (again). If you don’t believe me listen to Rush Limbaugh. He is mocking them unmercifully. I am looking for a Mark Steyn piece on this too. If Ann Coulter decides to do an article - ouch!
This particular “scandal” is good for Republicans because it shows the national press in a bad light. I hope it keeps going as long as the “NSA illegal wiretap” scandal has. Someone should write a book on all of the MSM feeding frenzies where the only blood in the water was from the sharks.
Feb 15, 2006 - 4:14 am 90. markus:Saying that the press is “overreacting” ignores the fact that the people asking Cheney to get out of his bunker are “senior White House officials” and Republicans in Congress:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/14/AR2006021402137.html
Feb 15, 2006 - 7:33 am 91. markus:one more thing –
I don’t give a damn about when the press corps was notified. I want to know why Cheney didn’t have to meet with law enforcement until 14 and a half hours after the accident occured. It is not as if he was busy attending to his friend, who had been taken to the hospital.
ANYONE else involved in a similar incident would have been questioned immediately afterwards, specifically in order to establish whether or not alcohol, was involved.
Lawrence O’Donnell at Huffington Post has also weighed in on the possibility that he was drunk:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-odonnell/was-cheney-drunk_b_15646.html
Feb 15, 2006 - 7:59 am 92. Charlie (Colorado):Markus, the fact that the flacks at the White House are saying Cheney needs to respond to the press’ overreaction isn’t evidence that the press is not overreacting.
And actually Markus, in Texas there’s no obligation to even report a hunting accident unless there’s a fatality.
Feb 15, 2006 - 8:39 am 93. Keith_Indy:Looks like people will get their wish. Although not in the format that they want it in…
I’m sure the mainstream media, and the usual suspects will be howling about this.
********
US Vice President Dick Cheney was expected to break his silence about a weekend hunting mishap in which he shot a man in the face, neck and chest, his office said.
Cheney was to make his first public remarks on Saturday’s shooting in an interview with Fox television to be recorded at 2:00 pm (1900 GMT) and broadcast four hours later, according to a spokeswoman, Jennifer Mayfield.
“The vice president wanted to talk to the American people about this issue, and we thought an interview was the best way for him to do so,” she told AFP by telephone.
Cheney has not spoken publicly about how he came to wound prominent Texas lawyer and developer Harry Whittington, and his office has refused to provide an official account of the incident.
Feb 15, 2006 - 9:19 am 94. TomTom:kirfz 1:
Feb 15, 2006 - 11:18 am 95. LemonDrop:The frequent Chevy Chase skits about G Ford are a landmark in the erosion of civility. Yes they were funny, but they were also hurtful and altered public perception; in an unmeasurable way helped to give us the truly dumbest president of the era, the estimable Jimmy Carter.
Things got more vicious with Quayle.
We mustn’t forget the characterizations of Reagan as an “Amiable dunce” who dozed through cabinet meetings.
We end up with the Bush-Cheney Derangement Syndrome.
Tell ya what- I’d rather hunt with Cheney than drive with Ted “Chappaquiddick” Kennedy.
Feb 15, 2006 - 11:31 am 96. cleek:In short, while you may have issues about a whole lot of other things, and, heaven forfend, you dont like the vice president, bird hunting, and the relative safety surrounding the sport, is clearly not in your area of expertise.
no argument there. in fact, i’ll give you a shiny new dime if you can find where i claimed it was.
but i know that no matter what the weapon, I wouldn’t turn 180 deg and shoot level with the ground, not knowing exactly where everyone in my party was. maybe that’s SOP for canned quail hunters, though.
Feb 15, 2006 - 12:33 pm 97. Keith_Indy:MORE: Considering the recent relevations about Mr. Whittington’s heart, I’m still not sanguine about how Cheney handled this. He is Vice President, not a private citizen. At the same time, the press is ridiculous in its over reatction. No one shines here.
****
A piece of shot migrated towards the heart and caused an irregular heart beat. After every doctor that had seen him said that he was in good, stable condition, and they were not removing most of the shot from his body.
How Cheney handled the shooting incident has nothing to bear on what occured after the fact.
I agree though that “no one shines here,” but have much more understanding for Cheney, not wanting to make a mountain out of a molehill (as it stood Saturday evening, all day Sunday, and all day Monday)
The left is jumping off the deep end, again. And the average person is going to wonder what all the fuss was about. Cheney had a hunting accident, big deal.
Feb 15, 2006 - 2:36 pm 98. LemonDrop:One last thought and then I’m moving on. Isn’t it the job of a reporter to REPORT? Uhhh, discover facts? Who says it is the job of a hunter to “alert” a report that indeed, something happened?
Ted sure thought he was exempt. For longer than Cheney and he killed a woman. LOL.
Feb 15, 2006 - 6:37 pm 99. dclydew:Cheney probably should have had the forthought to see that he is considered EVIL by many people, and shooting someone without making it public would be considered an example of EVIL. Unfortunately, just like with most of the problems with this administration, there was no forthought, simply action (or lack thereof). I’ve said before, and will say again, the Administration appears to have little in the way of understanding PR. It doesn’t matter in the PR world about what is right or wrong, but rather, the appearance of right or wrong.
Anyway, I think the Left and the media are being their normal idiotic selves.
That said: I am a hunter. I have hunted since I was a child, deep in the hills of Southeastern Ohio. My Grandma missed my wedding because it was the last day of deer season and she hadn’t got her deer yet (she got a nice Buck that day though).
There were a number of mistakes made (from the report that has been publicized). Mr. Wittington and Mr. Cheney (in fact the whole line) should have been in constant communication. Mr. Wittington moreso, because he had broken from the group, but Mr. Cheney also, since his side man wasn’t directly beside him.
When one goes hunting with my Grandma, lack of communication will get you smacked upside the head.
Secondly, in a line there are strict rules about who gets the shot. if you are on the end, you can shoot within a 90+ arc to your free side and a 45 degree arc from directly in front. If you are in the line, you should get an area about 45deg +or- for you shooting area. Since Mr. Cheney wasn’t the ‘end man’, his turning and firing was bad. If he turned and fired, it was not his bird and not his shot.
Shooting outside your range, would get your gun confiscated for the day by Grandma.
Third, we’re told Mr. Cheney didn’t see his friend, in one statement it was due to the ’sun being in his eyes’. One of the most important rules in hunting is to A) SEE your target clearly, B) See your backstop (what you’re gonna hit if you miss the target)and C) see anything between you and your target.
Shooting at what you can’t see, would get you banned from ever hunting with Grandma again.
And whoever stated earlier that they hunt and people get shot with birdshot all the time… I think you need to find new hunting buddies. No one should ever get shot by accident, its not cool, its not funny and its not safe. There are bastards out there just waiting to take our guns and anything other than personal responsibility makes us look more the fool. Mr. Cheney, to his credit has publicly acknowledged that he was the one responsible.
However, this is a great example where making excuses (because he’s the VP, or because you’re closing party ranks or whatever) is harmful, not helpful.
Feb 16, 2006 - 1:03 pm 100. Keith_Indy:A) “shooting someone without making it public”
Ah, but it was made public the next day. After all the facts were know, after the guys family were informed, and after the police had questioned everyone at the ranch.
Seems very reasonable to me.
B) “Mr. Cheney wasn’t the ‘end man’”
Debatable. Whittington left the hunting party, and hadn’t rejoined the hunting party. So, Cheney was the ‘end man’
C) ’sun being in his eyes’
This was only added as a contributary factor, not an excuse. On the police report I think it also says the sun was setting in the west. Well, DUH, that’s were it normally sets. So if Cheney was shooting to the west, he would have been shooting into the sun, at some angle.
The full context of your quote would be:
“Whittington had stepped away from the hunting party to search for a downed quail and was within 30 yards of rejoining Cheney and another hunter, but had not made his presence known, when a second group of quail flushed, Armstrong said.
Cheney had picked out one of the quail, followed it with his gun and shot, inadvertently spraying Whittington with shotgun pellets, she said. She added that the sun was in his eyes.”
Sounds to me like she was stating what happened. Not trying to make excuses for what happened.
Cheney owned up, fully, and without reservation. He did what was required at the scene, medical care, and police notification.
In the end, the press is the one that looks bad.
Feb 16, 2006 - 2:08 pm 101. dclydew:Keith,
Ah, but it was made public the next day. After all the facts were know, after the guys family were informed, and after the police had questioned everyone at the ranch.
Sonds reasonable to me too… if I’m not a much maligned VP who is considered evil by many people and has a problem with everyone looking for any excuse to make me look bad. Again, I’m not saying it was wrong to wait, only that it betrays yet further evidence of the Administration being bad at dealing with PR issues proactively.
Debatable. Whittington left the hunting party, and hadn’t rejoined the hunting party. So, Cheney was the ‘end man’
Not debatable. If you are not the end man, you are not the end man, you don’t get to change up just because someone broke the line for a minute. The reason everyone is given clear direction on which area they can shoot in is to prevent exactly these sort of incidents. If Mr. Cheney had stayed within his area, he would have been fine. He made a mistake. Honestly, I’m rather surprised because he’s got a good reputation as a hunter, so it was likely just a brief lack of judgement on his part… but still his fault. Any seasoned upland hunter will likely tell you the same thing.
’sun being in his eyes’
This was only added as a contributary factor
No, if the sun is in your eyes, you can’t clearly see the target, the surrounding area or your backstop. Ergo, if the sun was in his eyes he shouldn’t have taken the shot. If you can’t clearly see what you’re aiming at, you don’t shoot.
Cheney owned up, fully, and without reservation. He did what was required at the scene, medical care, and police notification.
I agree completely.
In the end, the press is the one that looks bad.
Why, because they were following a completely vacuous story that had no real bearing on any of their viewers? What news do you watch? That seems to be the normal fare from all the tv news/newspapers/etc that I’ve been able to find.
Unless, Brittney Spears’ baby, some Brit that shot his wife and kid, and the occasional car chanse in LA apply to you in some specific manner
Face it, the news media is and has for some time been irrelavant and blogs aren’t much different. The dearth of communication technology has given us the ability to share important information, but, in reality, there’s just not that much important information that concerns all of us. So were left with a tidbit of useful information and 23.75 hours of tripe.
The media looks bad to those of us who consider ourselves somewhat intelligent. But, do you really think that the hoards of mindless zombies that claim american citizenship care?
Hell, I’m not sure the majority care about WMD’s, Oil-For-Food, Abramhof scandals or Cheney’s hunting accident, except in that it gives them something to watch before Lost comes on. But then, I’ve come the the conclusion that we maybe should never have climbed out of the trees
Feb 17, 2006 - 10:39 am 102. Steven Mitchell:“Another possible explanation for the delay: Cheney and others had been drinking before the accident occured. ”
Just for the record, any reservations I had about thinking that markus was concerned with anything other than manufacturing memes, has now been eliminated. Future posts by said person will be read with that in mind.
Feb 17, 2006 - 2:17 pm