28 Comments

1. MGR:

It’s also interesting to note that the 2007 Camry hybrid has about the same horsepower rating as the 2006 Camry V6 (around 200hp), yet it gets 39 mpg in combined driving. Not bad.

Mar 30, 2006 - 3:42 pm 2. markus:

Raise the gas tax so that Americans pay $4 a gallon for gas. Then see how the auto industry responds.

Mar 30, 2006 - 4:45 pm 3. Charlie (Colorado):

It’s not the pistons, Roger, it’s the dynamic braking thing that makes the diff…

Oh.

Basketball, right?

Never mind.

Mar 30, 2006 - 5:12 pm 4. Johan Amedeus Metesky:

I cover the auto industry for a number of web sites that I publish and there’s a couple of reasons why Toyota is taking the lead on hybrids. One is that other manufacturers like GM, DaimlerChrysler, BMW, and others do not believe that hybrids are anything more than an intermediate technology and they are putting their R&D dollars into fuel cells, hydrogen and alcohol fuels (Honda is splitting the difference, selling hybrids while being committed to a fuel cell vehicle in the future). The other reason is that Toyota may be the world’s leader in quality and hybrid technology, but they are one of the weakest car companies in terms of diesel technology – which is where the story is in terms of fuel efficiency outside of North America.

Toyota has been introducing its “Hybrid Synergy Drive” in a variety of vehicles, including a couple of Lexus models. They recently added a hybrid ES (I think – I’m too lazy to look it up), a luxury sedan. Interestingly, they are promoting it more as a performance vehicle, since the total power is greater than with the gasoline only model, not a fuel efficiency vehicle.

Still, Toyota established a market for hybrids, so everyone is rushing to get some kind of hybrid to the market. Also, some technologies used on hybrids, notably batteries and regenerative brakinga, will be carried over into fuel cell or battery powered electric vehicles.

GM and the other US manufacturers get slammed for not producing high fuel mileage cars. The fact is that GM is being a good corporate citizen by focusing its hybrid technologies on its larger vehicles like SUVs and pickups. Sure, they could build a 40 mpg small sedan, but they sell almost a million full size pickups a year. Improving the fuel efficiency of their larger vehicles would do more for GM’s fleet avg than selling a bunch of econoboxes.

The fact is that the quality differences between the car companies are barely significant. Everyone makes good product these days. The problem that the US companies face is that the market’s perception is based on the cars that were being made 5-10 years ago, not today.

Mar 30, 2006 - 6:12 pm 5. Johan Amedeus Metesky:

Oh, and raising the tax on gasoline is not a good idea. One of the reasons why there has been little development of alternative fuels in Europe has been because little of the high cost of fuel ends up in the energy companies’ hands. It’s mostly taxes.

BTW, you could actually run your car on junk mail (oy! my Zayde the scrap paper and rag man would be qvelling). The same processes that digest cellulose in sawgrass into methanol will work with paper. So the NYT and LAT may be useful for more than just wrapping fish.

Mar 30, 2006 - 6:17 pm 6. Roger:

Very interesting posts, JAM. Thanks. Roger

And, btw, the luxury Toyota you were thinking of is the Lexus GS 450h, the subject of my post two below. Yes, aparently they are promoting it as a perfomance car. You’d have to do a lot of driving to justify it as an economy hybrid with a 55K sticker price.

Mar 30, 2006 - 6:19 pm 7. feaster:

I like the idea of a hybrid, but still can’t see myself paying more for a car that’s better for the environment. Sure, more research went into it, but if the only thing keeping people from buying the hybrid is the price point, it seems, to me at least, a sensible approach would be to drop the price in general and rely on quantity sales. Make luxury hybrids to cater to those who need to spend more and let us idiot proles get in on the action.

I recently turned in my leased honda civic and was seriously considering the hybrid version. That is, until I saw the difference in price between the two and quickly changed my mind. Even with gas prices going up and up the upfront cost was just not justifiable. This is a Civic for allah’s sake, if I wanted to spend hybrid prices I’d have gotten an accord.

The argument of “wouldn’t you pay just this much more to save a polar bear” has never settled well with me as I generally respond “can’t you charge a little less to save that same polar bear”. As a consumer I buy based on quality and economy and until hybrids are truly competitive in both those categories with their counterparts they will continue be niche market vehicles, thus not really solving the problem (if one really exists).

Mar 30, 2006 - 6:59 pm 8. MGR:

The money argument against (or for) hybrids has always been really weird to me.

Who buys a car to save money? If that was so, everybody would by the cheapest barebone compacts.

It’s strange that people expect a hybrid drivetrain to pay back for itself yet they will spend tons of money on things like moonroofs, alloy wheels, sport shifters and pedals, engine upgrades, body-skirts, etc.

A hybrid drivetrain is an option like the others. You want more power? You pay more. You want higher fuel economy, extremely clean (AT-PZEV or SULEV) tailpipe emissions, quite operation, high tech gadgets (LCD screen, etc)? You pay more.

The main difference is that a V6 or V8, apart from increasing base price, will also increase your weekly price at the pump and pollute more while a hybrid will reduce your price at the pump, pollute less, give you a tax credit and maybe allow you in reserved low-occupancy lanes. And if the price of oil keeps going up… Well.

Mar 30, 2006 - 7:09 pm 9. MarkD:

Is it really better for the environment when you need to replace the batteries? At what cost? Then for those of us who live in the snowy Northeast, the regenerative braking doesn’t work very well, I’m told, when the roads are slippery.

I’ll stick with my plain old, unglamorous, non-PC Civic. Reasonable price, decent mileage.

Mar 30, 2006 - 7:12 pm 10. Vortec:

I think the characterization of Detroit being asleep at the wheel is a bit sloppy. For what it’s worth, Ford’s Escape hybrid has been out for more than a year, and made it to market before Toyota’s Highlander/RX400h hybrids. GM will introduce 3 hybrids this year or next, including a very impressive Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, where the benefits can really be substantiated.

Putting a hybrid in a Camry is a pretty pointless exercise. People buy hybrids because of the vanity/look-at-me-I’m-so-green factor. They want to stand out from the crowd, which is perfectly appropriate. But having it in a Camry, which sells close to half a million annually, isn’t going to hold the same cachet. You can get a pretty good deal on an Accord hybrid, because they’re not selling at the same kind of premium.

Mar 30, 2006 - 7:44 pm 11. feaster:

MGR,

I kind of agree with you except for the notion that we don’t buy a car to save money. Buying a car, like buying a home is an exercise in balancing ego, economics, desire and fiscal reality. We put in the options that we feel are necessary. Those of us lucky to be able put in ‘ego’ options such as moon roofs etc we know that paying for them is part of the price of sating our desires.

Hybrid tech. is somewhat diff.
There is a subtle (in some places not so subtle [south park]) notion floating around that it is a moral imperative to get these things. I never objected to the notion that sacrifices must be made for the env. I just don’t understand why they have to be demand-side only (good marketing campaign..).

The notion of Hybrid tech being like a moon-roof or some other ‘ego’ option may be valid when all philosophical and environmental concerns,(supposed) imperatives and social pressures are cast aside but it is precisely those perceptions that make Hybrid tech different from a v8 or shiny coral blue paint.

Finally I agree with Vortec, that putting the hybrid in the camry or the civic for that matter is pointless for exactly the reasons he/she outlines, however, I also think that those who believe the issue is ‘too important’ should take note of that and make it so that those who buy camry’s and civics have less to lose fiscally by buying a hybrid.

Mar 30, 2006 - 8:36 pm 12. rosignol:

Make luxury hybrids to cater to those who need to spend more and let us idiot proles get in on the action.

Yah. Let the yuppies pay premium prices for green status symbols if they want to- it’s a better way to cover the R&D expenses than taxes and subsidies.

Eventually, the cost of the technology will come down to the point where they’re price/performance-competitive with old-school IC engines.

Then things get really interesting.

Mar 31, 2006 - 5:07 am 13. jerry:

I am surprised so many people still get taken in by the Hybrid myth. Hybrids get nowhere near their advertised gas milage. If you want a high milage care buy a Passat, Jetta or Mercedes diesel.

Mar 31, 2006 - 5:21 am 14. BeckyJ:

And ya gotta watch out for that smug cloud that forms whenever people start driving hybrids…get a perfect smug storm brewing…

(c.f. South Park 3/29/06)

Mar 31, 2006 - 6:23 am 15. kynna:

Well, BeckyJ, if it weren’t for that cloud of smug from Clooney’s Oscar acceptance speech, the perfect storm would never have happened.

What about those Hybrid batteries? I’ve heard they are basically toxic waste and when they all go bad in a few years we’re going to have a real problem on our hands.

And now some feckless legislatures and trying to push through a mileage tax (appalling) so the $$ savings will be moot.

My Echo gets roughly the same gas mileage as a Prius. Maybe that’s why Toyota discontinued the Echo (and ticked me off because I’ll be in the market soon), but there are other good economy cars that get excellent mileage for a lot less than a Hybrid. Why weren’t they popular before Leo DiCaprio got his free Prius from Toyota?

Mar 31, 2006 - 7:18 am 16. MGR:

“s it really better for the environment when you need to replace the batteries? At what cost?”

Honda, Toyota and Ford all say that the batteries in their hybrids will last the life of the vehicle (over 15 years), and after that they pay you around $200-300 to recycle that battery (it is Lithium-Ion, IIRC, not lead-acid or some nasty stuff like that).

“Hybrids get nowhere near their advertised gas milage.”

If by “advertised gas mileage” you mean the EPA numbers, then NO CAR gets that. A hybrid might get 20% under EPA in real life, but a regular gasoline-only car will also get 20% under EPA. You either compare EPA rating to EPA rating, or real-life to real-life. You can’t mix and match.

But the biggest factor is how you drive. Someone that gets EPA in his Prius would probably get EPA in a Camry, and someone that gets crappy mileage in a Prius (like most lead-footed auto journalists) will get crappy mileage in a Camry too.

Mar 31, 2006 - 8:14 am 17. Tom Holsinger:

I have 78,000 miles on my 4-cylinder 2002 Camry XLE. I have averaged 30.8 miles per gallon during the entire time I’ve owned it. The trick is to use cruise control whenever possible. That increases its milage by about 4-5 mpg.

Mar 31, 2006 - 10:41 am 18. Yeshooroon:

GM/Ford are dinosaurs and part of the problem of our reliance on foreign oil.

That being said, why not any comment on Jil Carol’s release??? Or are you leaving this to the sharks at LGF?

I briefly looked at your friend LGF’s site and see vile, putrified comments spewing forth like,

“She should be taken to Gitmo”

“Nasty Anti-American B*tch Syndrome, that is”

“Two Words: “Useful Idiot”"

“And Carroll is an early contender for the 2006 Fisk, -er, Sheehan Award.”

“I wish they had just killed you.”

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19858_The_Mujahideen_Interview_Jill_Carroll#comments

I consider myself conservative socially, fiscally and I support our war in Iraq, love the troops, their families and want victory. But these comments on Charles site are some of the most irresponsible DREK I’ve ever seen. At the very least everyone should reserve judgement until she gets home. The indications are she was scared for her life.

And while I was concerned about her initial comments, where the hell is the least bit of patience and mercy until she gets full help and time to recover? One can be wary of statements made after such an ordeal – even suspicious. But to make outlandish statements like those above in a public forum and Charles not at least address the issue – to take a wait and see attitude – is irresponsible for a blog of his reputation.

I’ve never seen so much vile crap. And Charles has not helped it. Its like a feeding frenzy of sharks on live bait presumed guilty without trial like they all know exactly what its like to be kidnapped by murderous thugs.

I use to respect LGF, but its gone completely whacko at times with the vile comments. I pretty much don’t go there anymore as a result. I guess if one wants to surround themselves with cussing and one line putdowns, its a great place to meet and greet amongst fellow lothario’s of one upism.

There were a few speaking out in her defense with a lets wait attitude. But the vast majority had condemned her to hell before she gets any reasonable and safe distance to freedom. I imagine half the commenters making such lude and rude remarks would crap their pants, cry and say anything to get the hell out of the same conditions.

You should address this issue fairly Roger. We truly do not know what happened, how frightened the woman may have been and just trying to save her life and get free. She’s not a trained soldier afterall, or a marine.

If in the future she’s making the same statements, then let the dogs and sharks attack, but for now, responsible people should withhold judgement publically until she is safely at home with her family. This could come back with egg on all their faces.

The commenters are actually castigating her for statements she made “while under diress and guard of the thugs”. You know, if it was my wife or friend, I’d expect her to say anything to get the hell out of their control and to safety.

Geesh…. disgusting LGF and PJM.

Lets look at some real reporting,

“Carroll says she asked an IIP official to call the Monitor’s Baghdad hotel. He refused, and called the Washington Post’s Baghdad office. Carroll is close personal friends with two of the Post’s Iraqi staffers”

Can you imagine, a friend dead, kidnapped and in the office of IIP? They refuse to call your media office? Who wouldn’t be paranoid? Who wouldn’t be thinking maybe she’s still not safe yet?

“Carroll, who was on assignment for the Monitor when she was kidnapped, gave a short interview to Baghdad TV, which is owned by the IIP, before being transported to the Green Zone by the US military. She was told the interview was for internal party uses only, and didn’t realize it would be broadcast. In that interview Carrroll said that for most of her ordeal she was kept in a darkened room which she later described as a “cave.”"

Now, why hasn’t Charles put these quotes up on his site? Instead he’s fanning flames. She is in an office of Islamic Party, owners of a Baghdad TV media station scared to death for her life.

PJM has done a lousy job on this so far. I hope you address this Roger.

Mar 31, 2006 - 10:41 am 19. jerry:

MGR:

You are correct about one thing. No car other then a Diesel gets it EPA rated mileage. The technical reason for this is that the EPA uses a technique that measures gas mileage by using the weight of emissions over some time period rather then by driving the car in normal use. This is why hybrids have vastly inflated gas mileage. On the test stand they use battery power optimally and thus reduce emissions weight. This technique underestimates diesel efficiency because of the soot produced in heavy fuel combustion. The Jetta TDI gets an EPA rating of 44mpg but in use itís closer to 50mpg.

Toyota and Honda have correctly judged that if you call something green you can get Americans to buy inferior technology for fuel economy. Neither Toyota or Honda produce diesel engines so they have developed a marketing strategy that uses their well earned reputation for quality and inovation to scam green minded consumers.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:03 am 20. Larry J:

Popular Mechanics magazine did a good article on real work driving results of hybrids several months ago, available here. They compared a Honda Civic to a Civic Hybrid and a Toyota Highlander to the Highlander Hybrid.

Hybrids are not the stuff of magic. Nor are they mere snake oil. What both the boosters and bashers need to realize is that hybrid technology is not meant as a revolutionary advance. It is simply a refinement of the same internal-combustion-powered drivetrain we’ve had in our cars and trucks for more than a century. But we believe it is an important refinement–especially for larger, more fuel-hungry vehicles.

While some drivers gripe that their Priuses should get even better mileage, the broadest criticism has focused on newer models with more horsepower and less fuel efficiency. “I think it’s just hype that GM calls a pickup truck that gets only 17 or 18 mpg a hybrid when you can’t run the vehicle on electric alone,” the Sierra Club’s Becker says. Such critics have a point, though it’s worth noting that GM sells more than 500,000 big pickups every year. Even small mileage gains in a fleet that large mean a significant reduction in the nation’s oil consumption.

More importantly, between the heavy-duty work trucks and the zippy little sedans lies a big part of the current car market, represented by vehicles such as the Toyota Highlander. Of the 68,717 Highlanders sold from June through November 2005, 15,756, or 23 percent, were hybrids. To many critics, that will seem like a lost opportunity–if only these people were buying the Prius instead. But to us, it’s promising news.

Ironically, our tests revealed that the strongest benefits of hybrid technology may be found in just such bigger, heavier vehicles. After all, it’s hard to squeeze much of a fuel-economy gain out of an already fuel-efficient compact car like the Honda Civic. But give a 4000-pound SUV like the Highlander a healthy electric boost every time it accelerates and the fuel savings can be dramatic. Just look at the data: Buy the Highlander and you get SUV room and performance with a midsize sedan’s fuel economy. That’s good news–for individual wallets as well as the world’s energy outlook.

Ultimately, today’s hybrid systems will be replaced by an entirely fossil-fuel-free powerplant. But for now–and by “now” we mean the next decade at least–we think hybrids make sense. Not for every vehicle or for every driver, but perhaps for a larger group of drivers and vehicles than either boosters or critics now recognize.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:07 am 21. Larry J:

The last 4 paragraphs of my last post came from the PM article. I normally put quoted text in italics but somehow, the italics turned off after the first paragraph. Proper attribution and all that.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:08 am 22. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

It’s interesting to note that General Electric is now working on a hybrid diesel-electric locomotive. It’s unlikely that the railroads which are prospective customers for this product are going to buy it based merely on environmental feel-good factors. (GE expects something like a 15% reduction in fuel consumption, although I would expect this to be very route-dependent)

Hybrid technology for cars may not represent a good economic tradeoff at this instant in time, but it is subject both to manufacturing economies of scale and to further development. The envirosnobs now buying hybrids may actually be doing us all a favor by moving the technology further out the learning curve.

Also, hybrid drive and diesel engines (for cars) are not necessarily opposing technologies; there’s no obvious reason why they can’t be combined.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:20 am 23. jerry:

Photon:

The diesel-electric locomotive is not a hybrid. The diesel engine turns a generator which powers the locomotiveís electric motors. Diesel-electric power is best used to propel large vehicles and ships. It was first used on US Fleet type submarines in the 1930ís. Before the development of the modern diesel-electric submarines Diesel power was limited to small to medium sized vehicles like switch engines. A historical note for technophiles the Fleet Submarine doomed the steam locomotive because it led to the development of a better technology to pull trains. Oddly enough the Soviet Union did not use diesel-electric power until the Kilo class submarine. Previous boats had separate diesel and battery powered propulsion systems. These systems were more like a hybrid automobile then diesel-electric locomotive. The last class of US diesel subs, the Barbel Class (SS-580) refined the process one step further by always running the motors off the battery and charging and discharging as required.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:36 am 24. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

Jerry…I understand how today’s diesel-eletric locomotives work. The new GE locomotive will interpose a battery array between the generator and the drive motors, thus allowing energy to be recaptured in braking rather than dissipated in resistor arrays, as is the case with today’s regenerative braking as employed on diesel-electrics. (For straight electric locomotives, regenerative braking is already used to return power to the overhead line)

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:41 am 25. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

More on the GE hybrid here.

Sounds like it will be sold based on additional pulling power (temporarily drawing power from batteries as well as generator) as well as the fuel economies and reduced emissions.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:45 am 26. jerry:

Photon:

Use of a battery or dynamic braking to charge a battery does not a hybrid make. A hybrid switches from gasoline to electric propulsion for different power requirements. Diesel-electric power always uses an electric motor to drive the vehicle. There is nothing radical or hybrid like in this technology.

Mar 31, 2006 - 11:50 am 27. david wayne:

I have owned a 2005 Prius for about 6 months.

First: I do not consider myself an environmentalist. I don’t think anthropogenic global warming is real (at least, not a real problem). I did not buy a Prius because I want to feel good about myself or show off.

I am an adjunct college teacher, teaching at 6-8 courses a semester, 3 different campuses. Typical mileage is 350-400 miles a week during school. I got tired of filling up every 4-5 days (and that in a car that got 29-30 mpg).

As others have said, the kind of mileage depends on how you drive. Most of my driving is on roads where the speed limit is 55 mph or less, and I do not go more than 2 or 3 mph above that. On 65 mph roads, I go between 55 and 60. Of course, I use cruise on limited access roads.

During winter, I got above 45 mpg, and, if it was not too cold, approached 50 mpg. It has just warmed up, and am presently getting (according to instrumentation, which is usually slightly inflated) 57-58 mpg. It appears that the optimum outside temperature for maximum efficiency is above 50 or 55 F.

I take it easy uphill and coast downhill. One learns to anticipate traffic, slow down if there is a red light ahead, etc. It has made me a more patient driver, which I think is a good thing. I don’t get as anxious if I get behind a slow truck, since I know that will actually improve my mileage. I realize I paid a price premium for the car, and intend to maximize the technology. For those who are willing to do that, the Prius is excellent.

The Prius is a very nice car. It is a pleasure to sit at a light in silence. The push button start is handy in winter–no fumbling with the keys. I’m sure it doesn’t have the ride or driving characteristics of an Accord or Camry, but that is the price I pay for approximately doubling my mileage. Now that gas appears headed back to $3/gallon, I am very happy.

Apr 1, 2006 - 4:20 pm 28. david wayne:

An addendum to my previous post:

One way of gauging the improved efficiency is the following:

In my previous vehicle, I put in approximately 10 gallons of fuel after 300 miles.

In my Prius, I generally put in between 8 g./400-425m and 9 g./450-475 m. (I haven’t tried emptying the tank more than that, since, I don’t need to, and long-time drivers don’t recommend it.)

I consider that a significant difference. And it looks to get better with the onset of spring.

Apr 1, 2006 - 4:34 pm

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