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	<title>Comments on: Another opening of another (Toyota)  hybrid</title>
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		<title>By: david wayne</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76483</link>
		<dc:creator>david wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76483</guid>
		<description>An addendum to my previous post:

One way of gauging the improved efficiency is the following:

In my previous vehicle, I put in approximately 10 gallons of fuel after 300 miles.

In my Prius, I generally put in between 8 g./400-425m and 9 g./450-475 m. (I haven&#039;t tried emptying the tank more than that, since, I don&#039;t need to, and long-time drivers don&#039;t recommend it.)

I consider that a significant difference. And it looks to get better with the onset of spring.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An addendum to my previous post:</p>
<p>One way of gauging the improved efficiency is the following:</p>
<p>In my previous vehicle, I put in approximately 10 gallons of fuel after 300 miles.</p>
<p>In my Prius, I generally put in between 8 g./400-425m and 9 g./450-475 m. (I haven&#8217;t tried emptying the tank more than that, since, I don&#8217;t need to, and long-time drivers don&#8217;t recommend it.)</p>
<p>I consider that a significant difference. And it looks to get better with the onset of spring.</p>
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		<title>By: david wayne</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76482</link>
		<dc:creator>david wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76482</guid>
		<description>I have owned a 2005 Prius for about 6 months.

First: I do not consider myself an environmentalist. I don&#039;t think anthropogenic global warming is real (at least, not a real problem). I did not buy a Prius because I want to feel good about myself or show off.

I am an adjunct college teacher, teaching at 6-8 courses a semester, 3 different campuses. Typical mileage is 350-400 miles a week during school. I got tired of filling up every 4-5 days (and that in a car that got 29-30 mpg).

As others have said, the kind of mileage depends on how you drive. Most of my driving is on roads where the speed limit is 55 mph or less, and I do not go more than 2 or 3 mph above that. On 65 mph roads, I go between 55 and 60. Of course, I use cruise on limited access roads.

During winter, I got above 45 mpg, and, if it was not too cold, approached 50 mpg. It has just warmed up, and am presently getting (according to instrumentation, which is usually slightly inflated) 57-58 mpg. It appears that the optimum outside temperature for maximum efficiency is above 50 or 55 F.

I take it easy uphill and coast downhill. One learns to anticipate traffic, slow down if there is a red light ahead, etc. It has made me a more patient driver, which I think is a good thing. I don&#039;t get as anxious if I get behind a slow truck, since I know that will actually improve my mileage. I realize I paid a price premium for the car, and intend to maximize the technology. For those who are willing to do that, the Prius is excellent.

The Prius is a very nice car. It is a pleasure to sit at a light in silence. The push button start is handy in winter--no fumbling with the keys. I&#039;m sure it doesn&#039;t have the ride or driving characteristics of an Accord or Camry, but that is the price I pay for approximately doubling my mileage. Now that gas appears headed back to $3/gallon, I am very happy.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have owned a 2005 Prius for about 6 months.</p>
<p>First: I do not consider myself an environmentalist. I don&#8217;t think anthropogenic global warming is real (at least, not a real problem). I did not buy a Prius because I want to feel good about myself or show off.</p>
<p>I am an adjunct college teacher, teaching at 6-8 courses a semester, 3 different campuses. Typical mileage is 350-400 miles a week during school. I got tired of filling up every 4-5 days (and that in a car that got 29-30 mpg).</p>
<p>As others have said, the kind of mileage depends on how you drive. Most of my driving is on roads where the speed limit is 55 mph or less, and I do not go more than 2 or 3 mph above that. On 65 mph roads, I go between 55 and 60. Of course, I use cruise on limited access roads.</p>
<p>During winter, I got above 45 mpg, and, if it was not too cold, approached 50 mpg. It has just warmed up, and am presently getting (according to instrumentation, which is usually slightly inflated) 57-58 mpg. It appears that the optimum outside temperature for maximum efficiency is above 50 or 55 F.</p>
<p>I take it easy uphill and coast downhill. One learns to anticipate traffic, slow down if there is a red light ahead, etc. It has made me a more patient driver, which I think is a good thing. I don&#8217;t get as anxious if I get behind a slow truck, since I know that will actually improve my mileage. I realize I paid a price premium for the car, and intend to maximize the technology. For those who are willing to do that, the Prius is excellent.</p>
<p>The Prius is a very nice car. It is a pleasure to sit at a light in silence. The push button start is handy in winter&#8211;no fumbling with the keys. I&#8217;m sure it doesn&#8217;t have the ride or driving characteristics of an Accord or Camry, but that is the price I pay for approximately doubling my mileage. Now that gas appears headed back to $3/gallon, I am very happy.</p>
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		<title>By: jerry</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76481</link>
		<dc:creator>jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76481</guid>
		<description>Photon:

Use of a battery or dynamic braking to charge a battery does not a hybrid make.  A hybrid switches from gasoline to electric propulsion for different power requirements.  Diesel-electric power always uses an electric motor to drive the vehicle.  There is nothing radical or hybrid like in this technology.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Photon:</p>
<p>Use of a battery or dynamic braking to charge a battery does not a hybrid make.  A hybrid switches from gasoline to electric propulsion for different power requirements.  Diesel-electric power always uses an electric motor to drive the vehicle.  There is nothing radical or hybrid like in this technology.</p>
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		<title>By: photoncourier.blogspot.com</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76480</link>
		<dc:creator>photoncourier.blogspot.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76480</guid>
		<description>More on the GE hybrid &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.getransportation.com/general/locomotives/hybrid/hybrid_default.asp?SMSESSION=NO&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

Sounds like it will be sold based on additional pulling power (temporarily drawing power from batteries as well as generator) as well as the fuel economies and reduced emissions.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More on the GE hybrid <a href="https://www.getransportation.com/general/locomotives/hybrid/hybrid_default.asp?SMSESSION=NO" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>Sounds like it will be sold based on additional pulling power (temporarily drawing power from batteries as well as generator) as well as the fuel economies and reduced emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: photoncourier.blogspot.com</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76479</link>
		<dc:creator>photoncourier.blogspot.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76479</guid>
		<description>Jerry...I understand how today&#039;s diesel-eletric locomotives work. The new GE locomotive will interpose a battery array between the generator and the drive motors, thus allowing energy to be recaptured in braking rather than dissipated in resistor arrays, as is the case with today&#039;s regenerative braking as employed on diesel-electrics. (For straight electric locomotives, regenerative braking is already used to return power to the overhead line)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry&#8230;I understand how today&#8217;s diesel-eletric locomotives work. The new GE locomotive will interpose a battery array between the generator and the drive motors, thus allowing energy to be recaptured in braking rather than dissipated in resistor arrays, as is the case with today&#8217;s regenerative braking as employed on diesel-electrics. (For straight electric locomotives, regenerative braking is already used to return power to the overhead line)</p>
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		<title>By: jerry</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76478</link>
		<dc:creator>jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76478</guid>
		<description>Photon:

The diesel-electric locomotive is not a hybrid.  The diesel engine turns a generator which powers the locomotiveís electric motors.  Diesel-electric power is best used to propel large vehicles and ships.  It was first used on US Fleet type submarines in the 1930ís.  Before the development of the modern diesel-electric submarines Diesel power was limited to small to medium sized vehicles like switch engines.  A historical note for technophiles the Fleet Submarine doomed the steam locomotive because it led to the development of a better technology to pull trains.  Oddly enough the Soviet Union did not use diesel-electric power until the Kilo class submarine.  Previous boats had separate diesel and battery powered propulsion systems.  These systems were more like a hybrid automobile then diesel-electric locomotive.  The last class of US diesel subs, the Barbel Class (SS-580) refined the process one step further by always running the motors off the battery and charging and discharging as required.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Photon:</p>
<p>The diesel-electric locomotive is not a hybrid.  The diesel engine turns a generator which powers the locomotiveís electric motors.  Diesel-electric power is best used to propel large vehicles and ships.  It was first used on US Fleet type submarines in the 1930ís.  Before the development of the modern diesel-electric submarines Diesel power was limited to small to medium sized vehicles like switch engines.  A historical note for technophiles the Fleet Submarine doomed the steam locomotive because it led to the development of a better technology to pull trains.  Oddly enough the Soviet Union did not use diesel-electric power until the Kilo class submarine.  Previous boats had separate diesel and battery powered propulsion systems.  These systems were more like a hybrid automobile then diesel-electric locomotive.  The last class of US diesel subs, the Barbel Class (SS-580) refined the process one step further by always running the motors off the battery and charging and discharging as required.</p>
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		<title>By: photoncourier.blogspot.com</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76477</link>
		<dc:creator>photoncourier.blogspot.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76477</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting to note that General Electric is now working on a hybrid &lt;a href=&quot;http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_photoncourier_archive.html#113614564350022905&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;diesel-electric locomotive&lt;/a&gt;. It&#039;s unlikely that the railroads which are prospective customers for this product are going to buy it based merely on environmental feel-good factors. (GE expects something like a 15% reduction in fuel consumption, although I would expect this to be very route-dependent)

Hybrid technology for cars may not represent a good economic tradeoff at this instant in time, but it is subject both to manufacturing economies of scale and to further development. The envirosnobs now buying hybrids may actually be doing us all a favor by moving the technology further out the learning curve.

Also, hybrid drive and diesel engines (for cars) are not necessarily opposing technologies; there&#039;s no obvious reason why they can&#039;t be combined.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting to note that General Electric is now working on a hybrid <a href="http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_photoncourier_archive.html#113614564350022905" rel="nofollow">diesel-electric locomotive</a>. It&#8217;s unlikely that the railroads which are prospective customers for this product are going to buy it based merely on environmental feel-good factors. (GE expects something like a 15% reduction in fuel consumption, although I would expect this to be very route-dependent)</p>
<p>Hybrid technology for cars may not represent a good economic tradeoff at this instant in time, but it is subject both to manufacturing economies of scale and to further development. The envirosnobs now buying hybrids may actually be doing us all a favor by moving the technology further out the learning curve.</p>
<p>Also, hybrid drive and diesel engines (for cars) are not necessarily opposing technologies; there&#8217;s no obvious reason why they can&#8217;t be combined.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry J</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76476</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76476</guid>
		<description>The last 4 paragraphs of my last post came from the PM article. I normally put quoted text in italics but somehow, the italics turned off after the first paragraph. Proper attribution and all that.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last 4 paragraphs of my last post came from the PM article. I normally put quoted text in italics but somehow, the italics turned off after the first paragraph. Proper attribution and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry J</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76475</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76475</guid>
		<description>Popular Mechanics magazine did a good article on real work driving results of hybrids several months ago, available &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2154662.html?page=1&amp;c=y&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. They compared a Honda Civic to a Civic Hybrid and a Toyota Highlander to the Highlander Hybrid.

&lt;i&gt;Hybrids are not the stuff of magic. Nor are they mere snake oil. What both the boosters and bashers need to realize is that hybrid technology is not meant as a revolutionary advance. It is simply a refinement of the same internal-combustion-powered drivetrain we&#039;ve had in our cars and trucks for more than a century. But we believe it is an important refinement--especially for larger, more fuel-hungry vehicles.

While some drivers gripe that their Priuses should get even better mileage, the broadest criticism has focused on newer models with more horsepower and less fuel efficiency. &quot;I think it&#039;s just hype that GM calls a pickup truck that gets only 17 or 18 mpg a hybrid when you can&#039;t run the vehicle on electric alone,&quot; the Sierra Club&#039;s Becker says. Such critics have a point, though it&#039;s worth noting that GM sells more than 500,000 big pickups every year. Even small mileage gains in a fleet that large mean a significant reduction in the nation&#039;s oil consumption.

More importantly, between the heavy-duty work trucks and the zippy little sedans lies a big part of the current car market, represented by vehicles such as the Toyota Highlander. Of the 68,717 Highlanders sold from June through November 2005, 15,756, or 23 percent, were hybrids. To many critics, that will seem like a lost opportunity--if only these people were buying the Prius instead. But to us, it&#039;s promising news.

Ironically, our tests revealed that the strongest benefits of hybrid technology may be found in just such bigger, heavier vehicles. After all, it&#039;s hard to squeeze much of a fuel-economy gain out of an already fuel-efficient compact car like the Honda Civic. But give a 4000-pound SUV like the Highlander a healthy electric boost every time it accelerates and the fuel savings can be dramatic. Just look at the data: Buy the Highlander and you get SUV room and performance with a midsize sedan&#039;s fuel economy. That&#039;s good news--for individual wallets as well as the world&#039;s energy outlook.

Ultimately, today&#039;s hybrid systems will be replaced by an entirely fossil-fuel-free powerplant. But for now--and by &quot;now&quot; we mean the next decade at least--we think hybrids make sense. Not for every vehicle or for every driver, but perhaps for a larger group of drivers and vehicles than either boosters or critics now recognize.&lt;/i&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Popular Mechanics magazine did a good article on real work driving results of hybrids several months ago, available <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2154662.html?page=1&amp;c=y" rel="nofollow">here</a>. They compared a Honda Civic to a Civic Hybrid and a Toyota Highlander to the Highlander Hybrid.</p>
<p><i>Hybrids are not the stuff of magic. Nor are they mere snake oil. What both the boosters and bashers need to realize is that hybrid technology is not meant as a revolutionary advance. It is simply a refinement of the same internal-combustion-powered drivetrain we&#8217;ve had in our cars and trucks for more than a century. But we believe it is an important refinement&#8211;especially for larger, more fuel-hungry vehicles.</p>
<p>While some drivers gripe that their Priuses should get even better mileage, the broadest criticism has focused on newer models with more horsepower and less fuel efficiency. &#8220;I think it&#8217;s just hype that GM calls a pickup truck that gets only 17 or 18 mpg a hybrid when you can&#8217;t run the vehicle on electric alone,&#8221; the Sierra Club&#8217;s Becker says. Such critics have a point, though it&#8217;s worth noting that GM sells more than 500,000 big pickups every year. Even small mileage gains in a fleet that large mean a significant reduction in the nation&#8217;s oil consumption.</p>
<p>More importantly, between the heavy-duty work trucks and the zippy little sedans lies a big part of the current car market, represented by vehicles such as the Toyota Highlander. Of the 68,717 Highlanders sold from June through November 2005, 15,756, or 23 percent, were hybrids. To many critics, that will seem like a lost opportunity&#8211;if only these people were buying the Prius instead. But to us, it&#8217;s promising news.</p>
<p>Ironically, our tests revealed that the strongest benefits of hybrid technology may be found in just such bigger, heavier vehicles. After all, it&#8217;s hard to squeeze much of a fuel-economy gain out of an already fuel-efficient compact car like the Honda Civic. But give a 4000-pound SUV like the Highlander a healthy electric boost every time it accelerates and the fuel savings can be dramatic. Just look at the data: Buy the Highlander and you get SUV room and performance with a midsize sedan&#8217;s fuel economy. That&#8217;s good news&#8211;for individual wallets as well as the world&#8217;s energy outlook.</p>
<p>Ultimately, today&#8217;s hybrid systems will be replaced by an entirely fossil-fuel-free powerplant. But for now&#8211;and by &#8220;now&#8221; we mean the next decade at least&#8211;we think hybrids make sense. Not for every vehicle or for every driver, but perhaps for a larger group of drivers and vehicles than either boosters or critics now recognize.</i></p>
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		<title>By: jerry</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76474</link>
		<dc:creator>jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/03/30/another-opening-of-another-toyota-hybrid/#comment-76474</guid>
		<description>MGR:

You are correct about one thing.  No car other then a Diesel gets it EPA rated mileage.  The technical reason for this is that the EPA uses a technique that measures gas mileage by using the weight of emissions over some time period rather then by driving the car in normal use.  This is why hybrids have vastly inflated gas mileage.  On the test stand they use battery power optimally and thus reduce emissions weight.  This technique underestimates diesel efficiency because of the soot produced in heavy fuel combustion.  The Jetta TDI gets an EPA rating of 44mpg but in use itís closer to 50mpg.

Toyota and Honda have correctly judged that if you call something green you can get Americans to buy inferior technology for fuel economy.  Neither Toyota or Honda produce diesel engines so they have developed a marketing strategy that uses their well earned reputation for quality and inovation to scam green minded consumers.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MGR:</p>
<p>You are correct about one thing.  No car other then a Diesel gets it EPA rated mileage.  The technical reason for this is that the EPA uses a technique that measures gas mileage by using the weight of emissions over some time period rather then by driving the car in normal use.  This is why hybrids have vastly inflated gas mileage.  On the test stand they use battery power optimally and thus reduce emissions weight.  This technique underestimates diesel efficiency because of the soot produced in heavy fuel combustion.  The Jetta TDI gets an EPA rating of 44mpg but in use itís closer to 50mpg.</p>
<p>Toyota and Honda have correctly judged that if you call something green you can get Americans to buy inferior technology for fuel economy.  Neither Toyota or Honda produce diesel engines so they have developed a marketing strategy that uses their well earned reputation for quality and inovation to scam green minded consumers.</p>
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