29 Comments

1. Pooh:

I agree with him about Albright. It is inconceivable that she wasn’t aware of her Jewish background. In that whole sorry affair the only people who behaved in a more despicable fashion than Albright were her parents.

Arnost and Olga Korbel, Albright’s paternal grandparents, were betrayed twice: once by Europe which turned its back on both the Jews and Czechoslovakia, and then by their very own son and daughter-in-law.

Olga Korbel’s last days

‘Olga Korbel was on the third-to-last transport from Terezin to Auschwitz, on October 23, 1944, along with 1,714 other Jews. Olga Korbel’s granddaughter and Simova’s younger sister, Milena Deimlova, then 11, was on the same train, the records show. Most of those aboard were mothers or grandmothers with young children, according to the memoirs of a survivor on that train, Helga Pollakova. She recalled that the prisoners were herded into small freight cars like cattle, 50 at a time. The train left at 5 a.m. and took nearly two days to reach its destination. When it arrived at Auschwitz in the middle of the night, it was greeted by a terrible barking of dogs and screaming of orders. The doors were thrown open, and powerful searchlights shone in their faces.

“Get out, leave everything behind,” yelled the guards.

The “selection” took place right there, in the goods yard. A total of 200 women and 51 men, who seemed reasonably fit, were loaded onto lorries and driven to the labor camp. Everybody else was taken directly to the gas chambers.

“A siren went off,” recalls Pollakova. “There was a terrible smell.”

She saw a pile of crutches, one of the vast piles of clothing and other objects abandoned by victims prior to entering the gas chambers. “My first thought was that there were people who needed those crutches.”

Then she understood.’

Apr 2, 2006 - 10:48 am 2. David Thomson:

ìShe recalled that the prisoners were herded into small freight cars like cattle, 50 at a time.î

There are a number of far right-wing Republicans who want to do the same thing with the Hispanic illegal immigrants. They admittedly do not want to kill them. Still, is this what the rest of us prefer? I donít think so.

Apr 2, 2006 - 10:57 am 3. cubanbob:

” Jew shame” a trivial matter? What next?
That ABC hasn’t fired him proves that the management agrees with him both about Bush and his views on Jews. The left must feel they are loosing their grip
when the propaganda must be slathered so thick by such obvious hacks.
Personally I view Albright as a fool along with the Clinton’s and Gore. But not because of her “Jew shame” but rather her liberal shame. And now Bill’s flaking for Hamas saying it’s understandable if they don’t renounce their charter as long as they act responsibly. What a whore.
As an American I feel ashamed that he and the Peanut were Presidents Of The United States America and the stain of dishonor they both brought to and continue to bring too the office of President.

Apr 2, 2006 - 10:58 am 4. Curmudgeon:

The term “Jew shame” itself, while unlikely to be used on a news broadcast, is neutral. What to make of it would depend on the context. As a description of Albright’s behavior, it is not inaccurate.
David Thompson: Wow! Way to stay on topic.
Call me far right if you want, but I think INS should have gone to those marches and checked the legal status of anyone carrying a Mexican flag or racist sign, or burning or otherwise abusing an American flag. Anyone found to be illegal should have been on a bus south immediately.

Apr 2, 2006 - 12:15 pm 5. David Thomson:

ìDavid Thompson: Wow! Way to stay on topic.î

The topic kind of strayed onto the subject of putting human beings on box cars. Yesterday, it was the Jews and the other victims of the holocaust. Now some people want to send ìthe Mexicans back to where they came from.î

ìCall me far right if you want, but I think INS should have gone to those marches and checked the legal status of anyone carrying a Mexican flag or racist sign, or burning or otherwise abusing an American flag. Anyone found to be illegal should have been on a bus south immediately.î

You are allowing your emotions to dominate your common sense. There are roughly 10-12 million illegals in this country. Do the math (by the way, you did pass your 4th grade math tests, didnít you?). They are not going anywhere. Its therefore best to turn them into American citizens as rapidly as possible.

I am not only a disgusting topic changer, but also a low-life self promoter. Alas, I have no shame. You might also wish to read the following:

http://yargb.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-should-republicans-do-about.html

Apr 2, 2006 - 12:34 pm 6. Pooh:

David Thomson wrote:

“There are a number of far right-wing Republicans who want to do the same thing with the Hispanic illegal immigrants. They admittedly do not want to kill them. Still, is this what the rest of us prefer? I donÔøΩt think so”

What separates men from monkeys is the ability to tell one thing from another, to know that apples are not oranges. In exploiting the memory of the victims of the Holocaust in order to make a political point, you have demonstrated that you have no heart. In making this absurd comparison (would that six million Jews had just been relocated), you are not only engaging in a form of Holocaust denial, but also have proved beyond question that your intellect is vanishingly small.

While I have absolutely no sympathy for those who would ethnically cleanse illegal immigrants, I would be very much in favor of shipping people like yourself out of the United States. One small caveat though: cattle trucks would be far too good for you.

Apr 2, 2006 - 1:06 pm 7. Pooh:

“Yesterday, it was the Jews and the other victims of the holocaust. Now some people want to send ÔøΩthe Mexicans back to where they came from.ÔøΩ”

Two points:

1) Virtually no other people aside from Jews were put on cattle trucks. Further to that the vast majority of people murdered in the death camps were Jews.

2) The Jews were murdered not merely by “some people” but by the the Nazis with the almost total collaboration of occupied Europe. That a virulently anti-Semitic United States and United Kingdom, both of which fought a war in spite of and not because of the Jews, did no lift a finger to help did not of course help matters.

Apr 2, 2006 - 1:12 pm 8. David Thomson:

ìWhat separates men from monkeys is the ability to tell one thing from another, to know that apples are not oranges. In exploiting the memory of the victims of the Holocaust in order to make a political point, you have demonstrated that you have no heart.î

I did earlier point out this distinction:

ìThere are a number of far right-wing Republicans who want to do the same thing with the Hispanic illegal immigrants. They admittedly do not want to kill them.î

Letís get this straight. Any attempt to send back 10-12 million people ìto where they came fromî will inevitably lead indirectly to a large loss of life. If nothing else, many illegals will almost certainly shoot guns at the INS officials and other government officials sent to arrest them. Older illegals and those who are still infants may not survive the trip. Also, what happens when, for instance, they are on Mexican soil—and that government is not able to provide them with food and the other basics of life?

Apr 2, 2006 - 1:37 pm 9. Kevin Peters:

Roger:

Ethnicaly cleanse? Cart them off in boxcars? Rhetorical overkill? Yes. Wherever you are on the immigration issue both of those comments are silly. Ethinic cleansing almost always is attached to removing the majority of a particular race from an area, usually by violent means. Even if every illegal alien is sent back to their country of origin, which isn’t going to happen under any plan that has been proposed, the areas that most of them live will still have very large Hispanic populations, We have about a million new legal citizens of Hispanic origin a year, which is fantastic, so the ethnic cleansing argument is beyond bogus. As far as packing them onto boxcarts this is a cheap reference to the Nazi’s exterminating the Jews and unless I missed it illegals who are deported are using normal transportation means to go back home.
The current system is broken beyond repair. It puts aliens into a legal netherland where they have to live a sub legal life where they are often abused, on both sides of the border. People can argue for reform without being branded as racists and if you don’t like the reforms you also have to defend this “I don’t want an open border but I don’t want any reforms either.” crap. Both parties have screwed this up. But the status qou is just as brutal and is nothing to be proud of.

Apr 2, 2006 - 1:40 pm 10. Joe Schmoe:

I’m going to go out on a limb here and defend Albright. I have suspected that my mother’s family may be Jewish for some time, but I have no proof of this, no way to confirm these suspicions.

My religous background is fundamentalist Christian; our church taught that Jews were good people, but misguided becuase they had not accepted Jesus as their savior, and were therefore tragically destined to burn in the fires of hell. Except for the guy who ran the local children’s shoe store (a Holocaust survivor, he the tattoo on his arm) I didn’t even meet a Jewish person until high school; my class of 400 had three Jewish people in it. However, I was only aware that one was Jewish, becuase he was on the wrestling team and wore a Star of David medallion, and I saw it one day when we were changing before practice. There were also two others — Sue Cohen and Nikki Goldberg — but I honestly had no idea despite their Jewish-souding names, olive skin, and very Semetic features — that they were Jewish, in fact I didn’t figure this out until years later when I ran into Nikki at NYU.

I think a lot of Jewish people, and especially those who live on the east coast, are used to an environment where everyone is hypersensitive to ethnicity and no one can possibly deny their “roots.” But at least where I grew up in the Midwest, no one much thinks in these terms; it really is possible to “pass” for a Gentile there. Where I grew up, there were no Jews. A few of the people in my town probably had mildy negative views about Jews in general, but they harbored no prejudice toward individuals. If you suspected that the new family on the block might be Jewish you would not say anything about to your friends and neigbors becuase you wouldn’t want to behave like some anti-Semite. Any person who was known to be Jewish and, say, publicly converted to Christianity would receive instant and total acceptance, no one would think that they were playing a role, denying their true self, etc.

If Albright grew up in an environment like this she could definately be unaware of her heritage. I think it is definately possible.

I still have no idea whether my own mother’s family is Jewish. The things that make me suspect this are as follows: First, my mom’s family has one of those names that is highly ambiguous. Maybe it’s Jewish, maybe not. The thing is, all of our ancestors had names like that too. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, who is Jewish, has the sort of name that I am describing. Actually, Libby is my mom’s middle name and was her great-grandfather’s maiden name. To make a very un-PC analgoy, if you met a guy named Tyrone Washington who loudly proclaimed to be white, you might believe him. However, if you then discovered that his mother and grandfather were named LaQuinta Jones and Shaquelle Johnson, repsectively, you’d start to suspect that his heritage is probably African-American. So it is with my mom’s family.

Second, my grandma is pretty anti-Semetic, so much so that I think she doth protest too much. At the same time, she looks just like your stereotypical Jewish old lady, she could easily pass for Madeline Albright’s aunt. My mom is like this too.

Third, my mom’s relatives all have stereotypically Jewish jobs. For instance, my late grandfather worked as a factor, great-grandpa was a lawyer in NYC, etc., etc.

Finally, my mom once told me a story of how as a girl, she took a trip to Europe with her grandpa. Before they departed, they made a hotel reservation and got a telegram back which said “confirmed if gentile.” Simlarly, when my grandpa was in the Navy during WWII, an anti-semetic officer kept harassing him about his name, asking him if he was Jewish. When I myself was in college, this dude kept trying to get me to go to dinner with him at the the Hillel house, I had no idea why at the time. Over the years several Jewish clients have made remarks about “our heritage” while giving me a knowing look.

On the other hand, there’s lots of contrary evidence. For example, my grandma has a family tree which shows that her family came over on the Mayflower. Her dad went to Amherst in 1910 or something, back when prejudice was a problem at places like that, and I think he grew up in rural Massachussetts. The issue is very ambiguous, I just have no way to know. I will say this, the mystery is kind of cool. I myself am guilty of the moral failing of mild anti-semtism from time, so you would think this issue woudl be disturbing, but actually I think it’s neat.

Based on this, I always thought Albright got a bum rap. Her stoy seems very believeable to me, I don’t think she was living in denial. I think it’s easier to understand this if you are from a part of the country that does not place great importance on ethnicity, like the Midwest. Her parents really could blend in there, if they didn’t say anything no one would ask.

Apr 2, 2006 - 2:50 pm 11. PSGInfinity:

I agree wih Joe. My impression always was that she was, for once, being straight with us. Consider it from her parent’s point of view. It’s not that hard for me to imagine a Jewish family surveying the wreckage of WWII and concluding that it’s time to just go with the flow. Beyond that, it wouldn’t take alarge conspiracy to keep young children in the dark.

Apr 2, 2006 - 3:09 pm 12. Curmudgeon:

Sorry folks, I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but sometimes you can’t resist.
DT: Yes, of course I can ” do the math” you moron. I hereby would like to consign that particular over used phrase to the same bin as Hitler comparisons. This isn’t a matter of math, but I assure you, we can handle those numbers if Americans get P.O.’d enough. What I explicitly advocate is Whack-a-mole(or irredentist). Although I want illegal immigration stopped, I have plenty of sympathy for Mexicans looking for work to support their families. I daresay the majority of them are not out protesting. It’s mostly second and third generation troublemakers. I want the arrogant little pukes wandering down freeways and blocking traffic harrassed mercilessly. If they aren’t illegal, possibly their parents or grandparents are. After a few thousand of them are deported, the rest of them will shut the hell up about “Aztlan” and “La Raza”, then maybe we can start dealing with the problem. If we got an absolute lock on the border, the problem might slowly solve itself over a few generations. I don’t think that is fast enough, due to forty years of irresponsible government, but if we throw in a well policed prohibition against hiring illegals, most of them will self deport, especially if we allow those who turn themselves in a twelve month grace period to return to Mexico and a chance to return legally once we get a handle on the problem, while barring anyone caught from ever returning.
I doubt that this will happen , and because of sentimental fools like you, in a generation or two we’ll be looking at our very own Kosovo. Won’t that be fun.

Apr 2, 2006 - 3:35 pm 13. exmaple:

Joe,

Very interesting story. You should follow it up.

But you are different than Maddie. What bothered me about her story is how she showed mock surprise at the “revelation.” That is, put aside the heritage issue itself. Put your self in 1997 and remember Maddie’s attitude at the “revelation.” Her affect told me she is a liar that she didn’t know.

Of course state dept. jobs are supposedly not very available to Jews, perhaps accounting for John Kerry’s father’s actions.

Apr 2, 2006 - 3:42 pm 14. JK Ribera:

Interesting comments, but I don’t see Joe Schmoe and Albright’s backgrounds as being remotely similar or analagous. Albright’s family were World War II emigres from Czechoslovakia, a group filled with Jews fleeing the Holocaust. It’s very difficult to imagine she did not realize this or was too incurious not to have looked it up. The Washingotn Post reporter didn’t seem to have much trouble. No, either shame or avoidance seems to be involved in her case.

Apr 2, 2006 - 7:26 pm 15. vet222:

–There are a number of far right-wing Republicans who want to do the same thing with the Hispanic illegal immigrants.–

I can do this too…….

There are a number of far left activist who want to bring Mexican good government practices to California, New Mexico, Texas and Arizona. Yes, the oppressive white America has lasted too long, now it is time for Mecha, LaRaza, and Aztlan. Sorry about you fellow citizens near the border having to carry rifles to tend your ranch, or having to wait for 10 hours in an emergency room because the hospital in the next city went bankrupt.

Suck it up, America was cruel and evil and we will fix that.

Apr 2, 2006 - 7:47 pm 16. Joe Schmoe:

I don’t know, I still believe Albright, because you really could say the same thing about me. I mean, my grandfather, whose first name was Herb, was a factor in New York. All of his clients were in the garment industry. Stereotypically Jewish? Check.

As for me, I’m a lawyer. Check. Went to law school at NYU. Check. Work in Beverly Hills. Check. I’m short, wear glasses, have dark curly hair, am pudgy and a little nerdy. Check. In the past year I have done work for the following clients. An real estate magnate, a finance company, and a wholesale diamond broker. If the foregoing was all you knew about me, you’d say that I’m Jewish for sure.

Moreover, plenty of people have thought I was Jewish over the years. That guy in college who was always trying to get me to have dinner at the Hillel House was sure of it. If you aske him, he’d say “well, duh,” I’m sure. So did my client the diamond broker. Ironically, he thought I was Jewish and that my boss, who is about the most Jewish looking guy you’ll ever meet, was not.

Suppose (let’s hope) I am appointed to a high governmnet position someday. Months later, someone “outs” me. I’d say, well, it’s news to me, I’ve sometimes suspected this but never knew for sure.

I am no expert on Jewish affairs, but I know enough to realize that some Jewish people act as “observancy police” who are always on the lookout for “self-hating” Jews and those who try to “deny” their heritage. These people would be all over me. “He didn’t know? Oh, please,” they’d say. “He’s a self-loathing Jew!” I’d get the full Albright treatment, you just know it. Except I really don’t know.

If Albright’s parents didn’t tell her, she really has no way of knowing for certain. Moreover, a lot of people just don’t care about stuff like that. I get the feeling that some Jewish people think that gentiles are always on witch hunts for the Jews in their midst. If some Jewish person tries to go incognito, the gentiles will out him. There are a few people like that, such as my grandma, but most people really don’t care. If Albright didn’t hear it from her parents, I am sure the neighbors would not have said anything.

In closing, let me give you an example of just how oblivious to Jewish isssues many genitles are. Remember how I said I didn’t know that my classmates named Cohen and Goldberg were Jewish? Well, it turned out that there were also all-Jewish fraternities and sororites at my college. They were huge, too, with thousands of members. But I had no idea. None of my friends had any idea. I knew about the black fraternities, but not the Jewish ones. I realize this is hard for people whose ethnicity is a key part of their identity to accept, but it is the honest truth. A lot of people out there really have no idea who is Jewish and could not care less.

Apr 2, 2006 - 8:07 pm 17. David Thomson:

ìI can do this too…….î

Can you really? Oh well, let me point out something that cannot be ignored:

An estimated 10-12 million illegals are in this country and are not going anywhere. Many of their children are citizens—and they have the right to vote in the next election! No conversation is worth having that ignores this reality. What are you going to do about it? Hello, we are listening. Do you have an answer? Somehow, I doubt it. Are you a mathematical illiterate? If not, what is your problem?

Apr 2, 2006 - 8:10 pm 18. Febday:

It never occurred to me to query Madeleine Albright’s ethnicity, nor to think she suppressed it unconsciously, for the simple reason that looks don’t make a Jew, being Jewish, is, fundamentally #1 a choice made for you by birth, but at the same time #2 a choice that you are free to modify as you wish when you grow up.

I have known many people in my life who were the children of Jewish parents, or a Jewish parent, but who were not Jewish, and didn’t consider themselves Jewish in any way. First, Jews who converted after World War Two, or who out-married and took their wives’ religion. Second, secular Jews who converted to Christianity because they liked it better. Third, people who “looked” and “acted” Jewish who were in fact Catholic because the conversion took place a generation or two previous. There are a lot of people like that.

Sure, there are Jews who will consider them Jews or part-Jews or what not. But these people don’t feel it themselves, and I don’t think others should go around putting labels on them.

In the meantime, “Un-PC analgoy” is my favorite expression in this thread …..

Apr 2, 2006 - 8:37 pm 19. Tim:

David Thomson,

We are a nation of laws, and the laws are to be followed and enforced without preference or prejudice, if they are to mean anything at all. That should not be a left/right or Democrat/Republican perspective. Otherwise the resulting cynicism breeds contempt and corrodes civic confidence.

Yes, illegal immigration has many consequences, and dealing with it can be very painful, including politically painful. Given the fact the law has been effectively ignored for several decades now, the price of correcting the resulting imbalance is higher than it would otherwise be. But it needs to happen, soon, in such a way that a majority of Americans, not illegals, are satisfied the spirit, letter and indeed the integrity of the law has been restored.

Might this include some form of amnesty/citizenship program? Depending upon the circumstances, it could. Might this include some form of a guest/temporary worker program? Again, depending upon the circumstances, it could. Might this include significant improvements in border security to severely restrict new penetrations by illegals? It can and it should, depending upon the circumstances.

Much of this, and the particulars of, reasonably minded Americans can debate. Gratuitously insulting some Americans as favoring loading up illegals on boxcars as if they were Nazis loading up Jews for the death camps, like any invocation of Hitler, is utterly useless to adult conversation and betrays the one making the argument both a moral and intellectual simpleton with slight to no character. Not that you likely care, or are even able to.

Apr 2, 2006 - 10:08 pm 20. David Thomson:

“We are a nation of laws, and the laws are to be followed and enforced without preference or prejudice, if they are to mean anything at all.”

How often do you strictly adhere to the speed limits posted on the highway? Furthermore, the Kennedy-McCain proposal does not give a free ride to illegal immigrants. They still have to pay $2,000 and other penalties. Isn’t this good enough for you?

You obviously are not paying attention. Some far right wing Republicans are advocating placing old people and small children on vehicles to remove them from the country! There is admittedly no direct attempt to put them to death—as I have pointed out a number of times. How many, though, will survive the journey?

Apr 3, 2006 - 12:54 am 21. Joe Schmoe:

David, what are you talking about? “Survive the journey?” Infants and the elderly regularly survive trips on airplanes, buses, and automobiles.

Just last year, a 96 year-old friend of the family survived an 8 hour plane trip from Los Angeles to Managua, Nicaragua. She wasn’t being deported, but she made the very same journey that the illegals would make.

Have you ever been to the Greyhound bus station or the Amtrak terminal? Plenty of infants and elderly people use both modes of transportation, and seldom die in transit…

I mean honestly, you are going way overboard here. Are some of the GOP critics of immigration motivated by prejudice and bigotry? Sure. But they are not mass murderers. You are getting more than a little hysterical about this.

Apr 3, 2006 - 6:32 am 22. David Thomson:

ìHave you ever been to the Greyhound bus station or the Amtrak terminal? Plenty of infants and elderly people use both modes of transportation, and seldom die in transit…î

The typical trip on a Greyhound bus deals with only a relatively small number of people. We have an estimated 10-12 million illegals within the United States! Those are far more daunting numbers. How do you propose moving such an incredibly large number of people? Moreover, I am more concerned with the end of their journey. Their native countries would be mostly unable to handle millions of incoming people. This would inevitably result in the deaths of the weakest. No, I am the realist one. You are simply unable to imagine the impossible logistical task of evicting millions of human beings out of the country.

Apr 3, 2006 - 7:26 am 23. Tim:

How often do you strictly adhere to the speed limits posted on the highway?

Illuminating. One sign of near-average intelligence is the ability to discern differences. So, under this “logic,” because many of us fail to strictly adhere to highway speed limits, other crimes like illegal immigration and maybe even murder are too excused? Why not?

Not that it will help you understand, but one’s breaking the speed limit does not undermine the law’s validity or the need to enforce it, let alone the validity of all other laws and the need to enforce them. I’m reasonably sure most of us (although you might) seek to appeal to the injustice of speed laws or the capricious enforcement of those laws as an affirmative defense against breaking those laws in traffic court.

Regardless, most of us understand the nation has laws against illegal immigration and the employment of illegal immigrants; these laws have been poorly enforced for decades; the consequences of this are broad and serious; some people, on both sides, are very angry about this and it is being played out in the political arena. I know this point is beyond your ability to comprehend, but not one serious proposal has any remote passing to any “ethnic cleansing” or Nazi-like train loading effort to deport illegals. I understand you desperately wish it so, if only to confirm your biases, but it just isn’t true.

Apr 3, 2006 - 7:51 am 24. David Thomson:

ì…but not one serious proposal has any remote passing to any “ethnic cleansing” or Nazi-like train loading effort to deport illegals.î

You simply refuse to take the logic of some of these ìserious proposalsî to their logical conclusion. Also, the McCain-Kennedy proposal does not give the illegals a free ride. They are fined $2,000 for breaking the law. Why isnít this good enough for some people? No, a number of Americans are merely pretending that their primary concern is the letter of the law. The reality is that they are bigots.

I am firmly for securing our borders. We must stop the flow of illegals into the United States. Our national security depends on it. Still, there are an estimated 10-12 million illegals already here. That reality cannot be ignored.

Apr 3, 2006 - 8:58 am 25. markus:

Regarding immigration legislation, a good compromise would be Kennedy/McCain coupled with border control provisions serious enough for Tancredo to support, along with the mandate that employers run all employees through a federal database to make sure they are legal.

But our political system is too screwed up for such a rational outcome. Neither the Aztlan activists and their allies in the cheap labor lobby, and the “no amnesty, bus them back to the border” bigots on the other side, seem willing to accept what THEY ARE OPPOSED TO in order to get WHAT THEY WANT. Thanks to such idiocy — along with a President who is half-decent on this issue but has already spent all of his political capitol in Baghdad and on the effort to privatize the New Deal — it is much more likely that we will get a watered down bill that does little or nothing.

Apr 3, 2006 - 9:29 am 26. vegetius:

Color me a “no amnesty, bus them back to the border” bigot. We already tried the sensitive approach circa 1986 and all it did was compound the problem.
The touchy-feely McCain/Kenn approach is just kicking the can down the road. I guess will revisit this again in 2026 and it will be 30 million illegals. The idea that another amensty
program is going to stop illegals is a joke.
A $2000 fine!! The illegals will look on it as the price of an admission ticket. There is no political will to confront this problem. The R’s get cheap labor and the d’s get cheap votes.

Apr 3, 2006 - 10:51 am 27. Kevin Peters:

David:
Many of the 12 million will live here the rest of their lives. Once again the ethnic cleansing analogy is absurd because we add a million hispanic citizens a year legally.The Hutu’s didn’t add Tutsi’s as the were killing them. And many of the current illegal aliens will be able to apply for citizenship and many will get it. Many who have been here for years and have children will stay also. The main problem with a blanket amnesty is that it didn’t work before and we should want to set up a system that has a logical orderly method for becoming a citizen, not just a rush the border method. Immigration has been and will continue to be one of the best aspects of our society. The energy and the idea’s that non-native(born here, please don’t give me the “only the Indiands are natives” line) American’s add to this country are a constant blessing for this country. There is not going to be a mass round up and a sudden dumping of illegals back to their homelands. So your boxcar analogy doesn’t work.
Both of those terms are explosive buzzwords to brand people as racists and Nazi’s regarding this issue. We need border control. we need real ID’s that can’t be forged(green cards are a joke, we need fines for companies that knowingly hire illegals, and if we don’t have real ID’s the companies will say”They showed me their green card, how am I suppossed to know.’ As far as the 12 million who are here, some came 30 years ago, some came two weeks ago. Giving them all a blanket amnesty doesn’t work.And for some industries(agriculture), we may need a guest worker program.

On their op-ed page the L.A. Times gave the standard response to the immigration issue. They said who will pick our fruit(true), who will mow our lawns(a fact but teenagers did it for years I don’t think the world will collapse) and who will build our homes. The Times was being honest but I was still shocked. When did Home construction become a job that “Americans won’t do.” Construction used to be a plumb job for Americans who didn’t go to college. Many nice middle class families were built on being a construction worker. In Southern California it is no longer true. And it is because of the current system.
If I was starving in Mexico or anywhere else I would do the same thing that every illegal does. I don’t blame them. We need immigration but we must have a legal, sane method to become an American Citizen and having millions of people living here in a legal limbo of you can come on in, but you are not part of the country legally is insane. It is destructive for the country and the aliens. And those who argue open borders have no idea what you are asking for.

Let’s argue the issue. I won’t call you “traitor”, un-American, and all of the other ugly, discussion stopping terms that some idiots throw out to stiffle debate. Boxcars and ethnic cleansing and bigot are in the same category.This is a huge problem and if we stop the knee jerk label tossing we might actually be able to get to a logical solution. If bigot, alien invasion, ethnic cleansing, losing our American identity,ect, ect, become the leading arguments then all we will get is Crossfire B.S.

Apr 3, 2006 - 11:25 am 28. ray_g:

e it is too late for back on topic, but here goes:

As much as I dislike the MSM, I think it is unfair and a shame for this fellow to be disciplined over things written in private e-mails. OTOH, I find it amusing to think that someone in the MSM is getting to see what it is like to be on the wrong side of a leak.

Apr 3, 2006 - 2:57 pm 29. Joe Schmoe:

Well, many millions of people travel many millions of miles on Thanksgiving Day weekend. It’d be a logistical challenge, but think we could manage it.

Your point about what happens to the people on their return to the native land is a good one. We’d obviously have to give foreign aid to these countries if we didn’t want to see famine, revolution, etc., and we couldn’t head off a revolution for certain.

I am a supporter of both amnesty and a secure wall. However, I think it is important for both sides to tone down the inflammatory rhetoric. The right-wingers need to admit that the aliens are good people, not criminals. The left-wingers need to admit that those opposed to massive immigration aren’t all Nazis or unreconstructed racists.

Apr 3, 2006 - 5:32 pm

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