60 Comments

1. Ron:

Is it prudent to have this many or more illegals in country in time of war? Their allegiance is not to this nation, it is to Mexico and other countries.

There are Mexican and other organizations that say California, Arizona and New Mexico should be given back to Mexico. There is now talk of Revolution in Southern California and outright sedition and treason to our country with out any legal response from our Federal Government; our laws have been made ineffectual.

The laws of our country and Constitution are ignored by our elected representatives. We have Political Correctness in play here that is sowing the seeds of strife and warfare in our country. In the Preamble of our Constitution it sets forth the responsibility of National Government and it is to its citizenry. Our elected officials are remiss in their sworn duties by not protecting our countries borders and the people therein. For breaking our laws no citizenship should be even considered, the wall must be built and Mexico has to be held accountable.

Ron Norman

San Francisco, Ca

May 1, 2006 - 7:47 am 2. Roger:

The above commenter has left his phone number on his post. This is against the policy of this blog and has been removed. Others, please refrain from doing so. Thanks. (I also disagree with the post, but that’s fine. Discussion is whatwe’re here for.)

May 1, 2006 - 7:50 am 3. Timbre:

Have a great day, Roger. I plan on spending a little money here and there, going to see “United 93,” and reading more history, that being “The Human Web” by J.R. McNeill and his dad, William H. McNeill. Maybe they can help me figure out all these appeals lately to natural rights and a peculiar absence of talk from the immigrants about responsibilities.

May 1, 2006 - 8:07 am 4. TomTom:

Appalling poppycock, Roger. Mexico’s “Great Culture” features mordida and appalling poverty, and a governing micro-elite of wealth that has exported their potentially most rebellious to the sucker USA, which “needs them”. And we sure are paying for our need in the costs of public education, mandated health care and lost income tax revenues, to cite just a few areas.

You are admittedly pro-choice, and should consider our national “need” for illegal immigrant labor in this context: since Roe v. Wade in 1973, some 30 million Americans have been killed in utero.

It’s hardly the best and brightest Mexicans thundering across the border, also.

Respectfully, you are all wet on this one.

May 1, 2006 - 8:28 am 5. tim maguire:

Good luck today, Roger, especially on parking. I have a question maybe you could shed some light on if you ever have some time. Why is Southern California so worked up about immigration (suddenly publically, but probably not suddenly).

I live in NYC and we have millions of immigrants, and a couple million are illegal. Nobody here cares much. They provide much needed cheap labor, local color, and some decent music. They’re generally considered a positive part of city life. And, again, it’s not that there are only a handful. There are millions. Immigrants and their children are the majority here.

May 1, 2006 - 8:45 am 6. Coisty:

I support these people (the non-criminal, non-terroristic ones of course)

A significant minority of all violent offenders in U.S. jails are illegals. All the evidence suggests they are more prone to violent behaviour than white and Asian Americans and more prone to drunk driving than any other group of Americans. I’d say their victims have been terrorized whether the illegals are terrorists or not.

They are great folks from a great culture.

If so then how come they’ve yet to create a civil society that they want to remain a part of insteading of having to move to the U.S?

Our economy depends on them – we all know it.

How many times does this fallacy have to be disproved before some people will stop repeating it? The open borders crowd just don’t seem to care about facts or rational analysis. It’s all wishful thinking and feel-good nonsense and ideological faith over reason.

May 1, 2006 - 9:08 am 7. PJ:

Tim,
I have a friend who has lived in NYC for many years and has always enjoyed the multicultural atmosphere, but these days she feels quite unwelcome/unsafe because of the overwhelming immigrant population there. Maybe being a single woman is the difference.

May 1, 2006 - 9:08 am 8. 4thOfJuly:

Tim,

Why are Californians so worked up about the illegal immigration invasion? Try asking communitities that have had hospitals closed due to lack of funds from illegals flooding the emergency rooms.

California is nearly broke and illegals are costing the taxpayers in this state ~$20B a year in services they have not earned.

Many of the jobs will be done by Californians. The fact is that your “cheap labor” comment is explotive of others less fortunate who will work for slave wages 14-18 hours a day without complaint.

There are many Californians that would be willing to do the work but the wages are so depressed they are better paid on State welfare programs.

In liberal Santa Cruz County, of all places, teenage boys are protesting the lack of work in construction – not that they won’t take the cheap jobs – that they will not be hired.

May 1, 2006 - 9:19 am 9. Godzilla:

PJ, it can get a little eerie in New York, in certain places. My father lives in the Bronx, not too far from Riverdale (which I would classify as variegated now), in an area that is now about 100 percent Dominican. Spanish is the only official language spoken there for miles. My father speaks fluent spanish and so get along fine. People know he’s not Dominican because of his skin color, but he has that Spanish European look that does not glare out at the populace. His girlfriend (of over 40 years), however, is Irish, and looks every bit of it, and she does not speak a whit of Spanish. She does feel like a foreigner, and would be lost if she was by herself. The Dominicans, fortunately, don’t have this “take back our land” mentality, as they were orginally the subjects of the French.

May 1, 2006 - 9:22 am 10. promoguy:

For those of you who live in Los Angeles and know the Valley, my wife just called and made the cutest comment.

Driving was easy on Sherman Way. Just like Ventura Blvd on a Jewish holiday.

May 1, 2006 - 9:31 am 11. DanM:

Roger,

I’m starting to feel like I’m a dissenter here… Not what I thought would happen..

My 26 year old nephew was injured by a drunk illegal in a car wreck. The lower half of his body was crushed, he is now recovering from his injuries. Recovering, but not completely recoverable. He no longer can have children. This “guest” had no insurance (of course) was released from jail after 2 days and is now nowhere to be found. The police say that this is commonplace. They go back to Mexico and come back under a different name to avoid warrants.

As far as I’m concerned, let them eat peyote…

May 1, 2006 - 9:32 am 12. promoguy:

I personally think this will all be a big blip on the national scene. Oh sure, it’ll make great news on the talk shows and networks and pictures in the local newspapers. But overall, it won’t mean anything.

I believe out here in California, it’s a bigger deal than anywhere else, because…..well, it’s California, where everything Latino read Mexican is a big deal with the politicos. After it’s all over, it will be back to work. A free floating holiday for some. A non payday for others. And a laying off of others. Pity the poor Taqueria owner who won’t have any business today and will lose out one day income.

I mean can anyone really think that this day of protest will have any effect other than p***ing off Americans in general, and some of those being the hard working legal immigrant sort.

May 1, 2006 - 9:45 am 13. GaryK:

I think you’re totally wrong, Roger.

These are not warm and fuzzy friends, they’re gate-crashers. They haven’t been invited to our party but quite a large mob of them have decided they want to come to our party anyway. So, they have broken down our door, pushed their way to the front of the buffet line and then, cleared some of the tables of all the place cards of those who were invited so they could have the best seats. A lot of them have brought their own drugs with them and pretty soon many of the others are going to get stinking drunk and start a fight; the more obnoxious of the group say that your home is really their home and they want to kick you out of it. They deserve what any gate-crashers deserve, to be thrown out on their collective asses.

And by the way, on the economic argument. I notice that the Pew Hispanic Center estimates that just Mexicans alone, the largest group of illegals, send $16 to $20 billion dollars a year back to Mexico where this money forms the second largest component of Mexico’s income. Who picks up the tab for health care and other social services, elementary and secondary education and other benefits to illegal aliens that this $20 billion is not paying for?

If all the 12 million, some say 20 million or more, illegal aliens now here are given amnesty who pays for the tremendous jump in social services costs when they, as new citizens, become eligible for the whole range of social services?

May 1, 2006 - 9:51 am 14. Plainslow:

Does this open up more hospital beds, and college classes? If it truely is a day without Mexicans, they must leave Hospital beds and classes.
Fair is fair.
I am wondering why a group of people, leave a country filled with corruption, to work here (at times paying to get here), because we have made it so they can work here, then tell us what we are doing wrong. We did something right, or they would not of come here. They’ve done something wrong in Mexico, or they would’nt be coming here in such great numbers.

May 1, 2006 - 10:00 am 15. dclydew:

Well, I suppose I’m out in the rain on this one. I can’t for the life of me, figure out how a nation of immigrants can have illegal immigrants. What made the first ones legal? Hispanic people have lived in California, New Mexico etc for many more years than the US has existed as a nation. It seems to me, that this entire argument appears as a reactionary political mess.

One person in the comments points to abortion… though how they cross the leap from “more migrant workers” to “more abortions” seems cloudy… apparently they believe that if there were more jobs, mroe people would carry babies to full term (because they want their child to be a peach picker or clean the local corporate office building for minimum wage). Another person cites the violent crime waged by illegals… yet misses the much closer correlation (desprately poor people tend to engage in crimes than non-desprate people… they also tend to get caught). And, while I feel for anyone harmed in a car accident where the other driver was too irresponsible to carry insurance… that seems hardly a problem specific to immigrants (there are plenty of poor Americans who aren’t insured either). The same could be said for hospital emergency rooms… poor people with no insurance are a drain on the current system, be they legal or not.

Guest Worker programs, fences, interrment camps, solidarity protests… none of these are anything but reactions to situations. we need solutions to the overarching problems, not reactions to the immediate situations. It is foolish to assume that the US economy could easily handle the ejection of all, or even most illegal aliens. It is equally foolish to think that a guest worker program, amnesty or kicking them all out will stem the tide of tired, huddled masses that stream to our shores.

I am in agreement that non-citizens shouldn’t be afforded the same rights as citizens. However, I find it distastful to bar any human from joining us in this bizzare experiment that is The United States of America.

May 1, 2006 - 10:07 am 16. Coisty:

DanM:My 26 year old nephew was injured by a drunk illegal in a car wreck. The lower half of his body was crushed, he is now recovering from his injuries. Recovering, but not completely recoverable. He no longer can have children.

Sadly, there are many more victims like DanM’s nephew but don’t expect the MSM to cover their plight.

Since California (Mexifornia?) has been mentioned lets look at one of the culprits in the immigration mess: Wine producers.

They always whine (so to speak) that they couldn’t produce their product without cheap labour.

Allow me to quote Pete Seghesio, CEO of Seghesio Family Vineyards in Sonoma County from Stephen Bainbridge’s blog (another open borders advocate): “”We can’t do what we do without them,” Seghesio says. “California cannot make 90-point wines without the hand care of these individuals. We’re not Australia, where many of the [farming operations] are done by machines. It’s impossible to make the kind of quality wine we’re making in California today without this labor force of hands.”

The obvious question that comes to mind is why can’t California wine producers mechanize the way they did in Australia? The U.S. got to be number one in part due to its innovative citizens and businesses.What is happening here is that the abundant supply of cheap labour is retarding mechanization and other forms of business innovation in U.S. agriculture.

Meanwhile the greater society must pick up the tab for hospitals, schools, prisons, and other “services” used by illegals. In effect, U.S. agriculture is being subsidized (again!) by the taxpayers.

Becoming reliant on serf labour is not going to be to your advantage as a nation in the long term. It’s proposterous to argue that the economy needs these people.

May 1, 2006 - 10:10 am 17. DanM:

dclydew,

Sorry, can’t let that pass… Yes, there are many people that don’t hold insurance. They are also breaking the law in my state (GA). The difference is that if they are citizens, they would, for the vast majority, subject themselves to the process of law. If you are an illegal, you don’t have to. They simply ignore it. At the most, they would simply be deported – then return.

I find your post not only distasteful, but also ignorant. Please enter Mexico illegally. See what happens.

May 1, 2006 - 10:27 am 18. Coisty:

I can’t for the life of me, figure out how a nation of immigrants can have illegal immigrants

So you would happily invite most of the world’s impoverished people to live in the U.S. even though the desendants of those Americans who built the country would then become a minority at the mercy of such newcomers?

The U.S. has had several “breaks” in immigration in its history in order to digest newcomers allowing them the time to integrate.

Besides most immigrants are coming from Mexico where a majority claim the South West. That’s like Israel, another immigrant nation, inviting in millions of Arab guest workers. It’s just asking for trouble down the road.

Hispanic people have lived in California, New Mexico etc for many more years than the US has existed as a nation

There were very few in those areas before the Americans settled them. Those arriving today are mostly from the south of Mexico. Their ancestors were never anywhere near California.

Perhaps you see all Hispanics as being the same. Mark Steyn recently wrote about such multiculturalists.

Another person cites the violent crime waged by illegals… yet misses the much closer correlation (desprately poor people tend to engage in crimes than non-desprate people

So you are arguing to bring in more poor people who will inevitably inflict suffering on American citizens. These people will form a lobby for more government intervention in the economy ensuring a decline in living standards for all and thus even more poor people in the long run!

You are not only importing workers; you are importing their political culture. Looking at the political direction non-European Latin Americans are going in (hard left) in Venezuela, Bolivia, and yes, Mexico itself, that could be problematic for the U.S.’s productive classes. The kind of recent hysteria about gas prices, “gouging” and ports will be nothing compared to what future populism will look like.

May 1, 2006 - 10:34 am 19. Anthony (Los Angeles):

Hi Roger,

Bush does have part of a good plan, as does the Senate and the House. The problem is belnding them into a coherent whole. I agree with Krauthammer: no consensus will be reached until the concerns of those emphasizing border security (not nearly all of whom are nativist wackos) are addressed. That means a secure border fence first, and then a process for legalization and eventual citizenship for those already here.

May 1, 2006 - 10:38 am 20. dclydew:

there are many people that don’t hold insurance. They are also breaking the law in my state (GA). The difference is that if they are citizens, they would, for the vast majority, subject themselves to the process of law. If you are an illegal, you don’t have to. They simply ignore it.

Then the issue, as far as I can see… would be the fact that illegal aliens aren’t being held to the same level of responbsibility as a citizen by the legal system. It seems to me, that making the law apply across legal and illegal boundries equally would remedy this problem. There will always be illegal aliens… even if we deport 500,000 of them. It seems better to me, to enforce the penalties for illegal behavior, instead of living in a fantasy world where we could keep aliens out.

I find your post not only distasteful, but also ignorant.

I’m not sure why you find it distastful or ignorant, other than perhaps it doesn’t agree with your opinion. If you would care to provide me with some points where you disagree, we could possibly debate the issue. However, I find it difficult to respond usefully to your information-free post.

Please enter Mexico illegally. See what happens.

Well, there are lots of ways that Mexico and America differ… I prefer that we not try to imitate a fiscally screwed, politically flawed and nearly third world nation.

May 1, 2006 - 10:43 am 21. foreign devil:

Basically, you now have in America a strike force of 13 million people (let’s halve that to be real)….say 6.5 million people—the size of the City of Toronto…across the country, ready and willing if you allow this to pass, to strike over ANY ISSUE AT ANY TIME WITHOUT DISCUSSION AT THE CALLOUT OF THE COMMUNISTS AND MEXICANS ALLIED NOW WITH THE ISLAMISTS.

Do you have any idea what that means. If you hire a Mexican in future, and don’t know if they are legal or not, they can hold up your business to ransom whenever…say, the Black Panthers or the Muslims have a beef. They’ve all joined hands now in a silent insurgency. For how long before they start torching cars.

Somebody…don’t know who and I’m not saying it’s this crowd but somebody torched 30 cars last night in Indiana. Report earlier on FOX. Shades of Paris! What next?

This is not over…!

May 1, 2006 - 11:06 am 22. Sandy P:

– I prefer that we not try to imitate a fiscally screwed, politically flawed and nearly third world nation.–

Guess we’ll know in a few decades.

May 1, 2006 - 11:06 am 23. PJ:

DanM,
You have hit upon the problem accurately. Illegals are not held to the same standards of law as legal citizens are. The law simply does not know what to do with them or police are browbeaten by advocacy groups to excuse their bad behavior.

I recently got a $109 ticket for crossing the street too slowly, yet I see Hispanics walking past my house every day with stolen grocery carts in broad daylight! No one stops them. I would be happy with a moderate amount of illegal immigration but laws enforced them equally once they live here.

May 1, 2006 - 11:15 am 24. f15c:

dclydew: “I can’t for the life of me, figure out how a nation of immigrants can have illegal immigrants”

You are either trying to be condescendingly coy, or you are woefully ignorant. I suspect the former.

We are not “a nation of immigrants”. That is one of the most abused phrases of our time and is used out of both ignorance and malice. Well over 85% of Americans were born here, ie. we did not immigrate here. We are not a nation immigrants, we are Americans. Yes many of our ancestors immigrated here from other lands, but that is true of many nations and does not change the simple fact that we are a nation of Americans. Period.

Illegal aliens make a concious choice to violate the laws and sovereignity of the nation and peoples whose border they cross illegally. What is so difficult to understand about that? Whether they are nice, hardworking people or criminals or neither, changes nothing. They are every bit as human and responsible for their actions as you or I.

May 1, 2006 - 11:15 am 25. Mark Poling:

This isn’t an issue I’ve been following much at all; the finer details of what’s being bandied about have totally passed me by. But one thing stands out, and it causes my knee to jerk so violently I worry for my patellar tendon:

The “reconquest” rhetoric has got to stop.

I mean, if the gringo is the problem, why the hell go to the trouble of being an illegal alien? What’s wrong with this picture?

By encouraging the possibility people can live here with only Spanish, the leaders of this demonstration are essentially keeping their constituency in poverty. (In a sense, that could be their intention. Better for the leaders, isn’t it?)

BINGO! At the core of any anti-assimilationist movement is a group of people who will have to find another line of work if their “constituents” successfully integrate. I live in NYC and I love the diversity of the place, but there’s diversity and there’s Diversity.

The Diversity Industry is simply a parasite on the groups it claims to “protect”. Do the downtrodden a favor and tell an activist to “go screw” today.

Now I need to decide between sushi, Cantonese, Indian, and Lebanese food for lunch. Oddly enough, there isn’t any good Mexican food in my part of town, but even if there were, I doubt I’d be able to get it today…..

May 1, 2006 - 11:17 am 26. Ratilius:

I am from good old europe and am very supprised, about some of the opinions I read above.
Most of the people, that complain about immigrants, have also been imigrants, even if it was(”como mucho”) 300 years ago.

I don¥t exactly understand, what upsets people so much about translating a anthem. It made me read through the english lyrics for the first time, because I never fully understood the words, when the anthem was sung.
I read a figure, that 60 percent of the english-speaking people don¥t know the words of the anthem by heart.

May 1, 2006 - 11:25 am 27. Kevin Peters:

Roger;

The argument isn’t immigration or no immigration. It’s whether we want to have a rational, controlled immigration or the open border free for all that we have now. And this is a point that should be made and not ignored. The biggest victims of the current system is the immigrants themselves. They are screwed leaving South America and then they are often screwed when they get here. And if they think they can continue with their strikes they are in for a rude suprise. The jobs they have now will be taken by the new illegal immigrants that will continue to come over the border.

Legal immigration has always been and will continue to be a incredible blessing for this country. We get motivated people with energy, new ideas and a strong work ethic. The current system only keeps the illegal immigrants from actually achieving full citizenship and the rights to pursue the freedoms that their homelands deny them.
What has to be done? Border control. A form of I.D. that can’t be cheaply forged and is tied to a national data base. With that I.D. companies that hire illegals can be fined without the “They gave me a green card” excuse. A rational system of deportation. If the human slave traders in other countries think that we have a system that allows anyone who crosses the border gets to stay then they will keep coming, keep depressing wages, and keep those immigrants that try to follow the law from feeling like chumps. The average wait for legal immigration in the Phillipines is 10 years.What do those who follow the laws think when they see that all they have to do is fly into the U.S. and they will eventually be given amnesty. They must feel like fools for following the law. If we show no respect for our laws why should they?

None of these solutions will stop immigrants of color from immigrating to this country. So please drop the racist slander. In it’s editiorial a few weeks back the L.A. Times included construction in the jobs that “Americans won’t do.” That is a lie. For generations construction jobs were the ticket for non college americans to a middle class life. In Southern California a contractor who ties to follow the law and give his employee’s a reasonable wage will be underbid on every job and will soon be on the unemployment line himself.

For those industries that can’t find American workers that is when you increase the number of legal immigrants into the country. We have a long legal waiting list and all it would take is a letter from the U.S. government and they will get here. And then those immigrants can become citizens, can go to the police if they are being abused by their employers, and these immigrants can become important legal parts of our society.Why is it bad to have a legal, controlled, inclusive system of immigration? This does not stop immigration. And under this system most of these immigrants will be poor South Americans and that is fine with me, it’s a natural geographic outcome.These idea’s do not prevent peopel from immigrating. It just stops the abuse that the current system inflicts on the illegal immigrants and those who want to keep the uncontrolled system are responsible for this abuse.

May 1, 2006 - 11:31 am 28. Kevin Peters:

Coisty:

Studies have proven that slave societies and economies that depend on stoop labour eventually lose out to more efficient sytems. The South lost the civil war because the slave economy was more costly to preserve and produced less the the non-slave North.

May 1, 2006 - 11:35 am 29. DanM:

“Then the issue, as far as I can see… would be the fact that illegal aliens aren’t being held to the same level of responbsibility(sic) as a citizen by the legal system.” – dclydew

My, there is a point where we agree, but can you see your problem with that statement?

“It seems better to me, to enforce the penalties for illegal behavior, instead of living in a fantasy world where we could keep aliens out.” – dclydew

If they weren’t here, we wouldn’t have this “double-standard”.

“I’m not sure why you find it distastful or ignorant, other than perhaps it doesn’t agree with your opinion.”

I find it distasteful due to your moral equivelance. It doesn’t mean that I think you are an idiot, a leftist-commie pinko, a Republican, a Democrat, a Christian, a Muslim, etc. I think that you love the counter-point.

Ignorant, well – “There will always be illegal aliens… even if we deport 500,000 of them.” – dclydew

As there are estimates of over 10 million illegal aliens… Remember, ignorant doesn’t mean stupid, it means uninformed.

To abandon every problem is to nullify the rule of law. As I have posted before, if we can pick the laws that we abide by – I pick all but the 16th amendment.

May 1, 2006 - 11:55 am 30. promoguy:

“I am from good old europe and am very supprised, about some of the opinions I read above.
Most of the people, that complain about immigrants, have also been imigrants, even if it was(”como mucho”) 300 years ago.

I don¥t exactly understand, what upsets people so much about translating a anthem. It made me read through the english lyrics for the first time, because I never fully understood the words, when the anthem was sung.
I read a figure, that 60 percent of the english-speaking people don¥t know the words of the anthem by heart.”

Ratsie, or whatever your name is, I noticed you live, play and work in Germany. I won’t come to Germany, where I incidentally worked for 8 years, and tell you how to translate what was once Deutschland Uber Alles and you don’t come here and tell me how our national anthem should be sung.

I wouldn’t expect you to know the words as I didn’t even when I lived there.

And as to how people treated their immigrants, do you want to talk about the guest workers of the late sixties and early seventies when I was there. How the Turks lived and the Yugoslavians. You you wanna, huh???

May 1, 2006 - 12:11 pm 31. DanM:

Kevin Peters,

Excellent post. Logical, straight-forward, therefore – not a chance in h**l that it will be passed by the legislature…..

May 1, 2006 - 12:15 pm 32. dclydew:

So you would happily invite most of the world’s impoverished people to live in the U.S. even though the desendants of those Americans who built the country would then become a minority at the mercy of such newcomers?

No, I think that every human has the right to expatriation. I think that anyone who wishes to join in the American experiment should feel free to do so. I think that they should feel more than free to bring along ideas from whatever society they have left. (Of course, I also think there is a strong need for these individuals to remember that they have ‘left’ that society). I see no reason to embrace multi-culturalism as a culture. I have no tolerance for an immigrant population trying to remain as seperatists (as some Muslim groups may wish) with their own implementation of civil law. If an individual wishes to come to this nation, I think it best if we provide a number of options.

1) Naturalized Citizen – This would be for people willing to move here, remain here and abide by all of our laws (and gain all of our freedoms).

2) Guest Worker/Student – This would be for those who wish to work here for a short time. They may perhaps be testing the water for becoming a citizen, or providing a service that may be unique (I have a friend who is a fantastic Sushi chef, he spends 6 months here working and six months home with his family, living off of the wages (minus taxes etc)… that seems acceptable to me)

3) Undocumented/Documented Worker – This would be the catch-all for anyone who didn’t fit in the other groups. In this situation I would like to see enforcement of laws making it a felony for employers to use undocumented workers. However, I would also provide employers with the ability to submit documentation for their undocumented workers, thus documenting them and allowing taxes etc to be taken care of. If an employer is caught without documentation for a worker… then they can pay the taxes owed by that worker.

Finally, I think we need to make a clear distinction between citizens and non-citizens. Citizens have rights under the constitution, they have responsibilities and they have various freedoms that non-citizens simply don’t have. For example, I may not agree with my neighbor, an American citizen who sympathizes with Hammas, but I defend his right to speak at a rally and say whatever stupid things he’d like to say, including invectives against the US. On the other hand, if some non-American holds a rally to decry the evils of the nation… well I think they can be provided a quick way to be free of this country’s problems.

I don’t think that there are any easy answers to the problems associated with immigration. However, the only solutions I’ve heard, appear reactionary and unlikely to actually solve issues… they appear much like Reagan era immigration reform which left us where we are now. There are serious potential issues with unchecked immigration, with the unhealthy segregation of different ethnic groups, with entitlement prone individuals and groups that presume that something is owed them. Unfortunately, kicking everyone out and putting up a fence won’t solve this problem. It will simply toss it back under the covers until, in another decade we will be dealing with another insane number of undocumented people wandering about in our nation.

May 1, 2006 - 12:17 pm 33. Kevin Peters:

Roger:

For those who sing the “we are a nation of immigrants and your fore fathers were immigrants” I agree. I simply want a similar legal system of immigration. Did my forefathers bumrush the border? No, they went through a legal process at Ellis Island. Most did it legally. Thats what I want. It worked before, it can work again. This not open, not legal system is for the birds. Many who want amnesty still try to give the illusion that they still want controlled immigration, very few have the guts to say “We are for an open border system, come one, come all.” They push for amensty and then lie that they do not want an open border. If we don’t have border enforcement, a rational deportation system, a rational method to verify anyones legal status, then there is a defacto open border. If those issuesare not addressed 10 years from now we will have the same argument over the next 18 million immigrants, and those illegals will keep the wages of the amnesty immigrants of today depressed.

May 1, 2006 - 12:27 pm 34. dclydew:

My, there is a point where we agree, but can you see your problem with that statement?

Sure, I assume that you wish to point out that since the illegal alien is here, they’re already breaking the law. Great point… however, unless you honestly believe that we can actually stop illegal aliens from entering the country, its rather moot.

If they weren’t here, we wouldn’t have this “double-standard”.

Or if we just held all people responsible, we wouldn’t have the double standard. A basic “If a person (legal status notwithstanding) hits someone with a car and they don’t have insurance, the attending officer should arrest them immediately” would take care of the earlier problem.

The same could be said for most instances where some ‘illegal alien’ is part of a double-standard. It’s not their fault there’s a double standard, its our fault for percieving two groups for our laws to apply to.

I find it distasteful due to your moral equivelance. It doesn’t mean that I think you are an idiot, a leftist-commie pinko, a Republican, a Democrat, a Christian, a Muslim, etc. I think that you love the counter-point.

What moral equivelance?

Ignorant, well – “There will always be illegal aliens… even if we deport 500,000 of them.” – dclydew

As there are estimates of over 10 million illegal aliens… Remember, ignorant doesn’t mean stupid, it means uninformed.

Yes, I’m aware of the numbers… perhaps I should have reworded my sentence so that it stated: ” “There will always be illegal aliens… even if we deport *insert large number here* of them.”

Is that less ignorant for ya buddy?

To abandon every problem is to nullify the rule of law. As I have posted before, if we can pick the laws that we abide by – I pick all but the 16th amendment.

I agree that if we abandon every problem we nullify the rule of law… I even agree with you on the first law I would love to see dumped. However, it is my opinion that problems are best solved by solutions that proactively address problems, not solutions that reactively try to close Pandora’s Box. Reactivism simply doesn’t work.

May 1, 2006 - 12:29 pm 35. Steven Mitchell:

The difficulty with this issue is that it isn’t one issue. It’s at least two related issues:

1. Control of illegal immigration is seriously lacking (on all fronts, first entry to detection to deportation).

2. Legal immigration is too strict, akin to a multi-year visit to the local department of motor vehicles.

The vast majority of Americans, I think, would get behind a proposal that shut down the border (as much as reasonable), imposed some real teeth to those circumventing the immigration laws, etc. They would also get behind a proposal that streamlined legal immigration and/or extended work visits–especially if traded for a no-nonsense assimilation policy (learn English, et. al.)

However, there are a great many Americans in various positions of authority that don’t want that whole package. They are willing to pretend to want it, to get only the part they do want. In particular, the aforementioned “leaders” of the poor, down-trodden immigrants do not want assimulation.

May 1, 2006 - 12:33 pm 36. eaanders:

You may be underestimating the Mexican government. The Spaniards control the country, and it looks like they are doing a bit of ethnic cleansing to reduce the number of mestizos by keeping their southern border tightly closed and encouraging illegal immigration to the US. And the remittances are just frosting on the cake.
Since the ruling class in almost all western countries is barely maintaining its population, eventually the peons will be the majority everywhere. I think the Spaniards in Mexico are doing the same thing as the Israelis in contoling the minority population to maintain the power of the ruling class.
The US administration may have the same thing in mind by advocating guest worker programs without a program toward citizenship. But, they are overlooking the fact that all children born in the US are automatically citizens.

May 1, 2006 - 12:34 pm 37. DanM:

dclydew,

Do you have a split personality? No, seriously…

First you say – “Guest Worker programs, fences, interrment camps, solidarity protests… none of these are anything but reactions to situations. It is equally foolish to think that a guest worker program, amnesty or kicking them all out will stem the tide of tired, huddled masses that stream to our shores.”

Then you say – “2) Guest Worker/Student – This would be for those who wish to work here for a short time. They may perhaps be testing the water for becoming a citizen, or providing a service that may be unique (I have a friend who is a fantastic Sushi chef, he spends 6 months here working and six months home with his family, living off of the wages (minus taxes etc)… that seems acceptable to me)”

“Is that less ignorant for ya buddy?” – Sure, buddy…less ignorant, more tense though…

May 1, 2006 - 12:45 pm 38. Kevin Peters:

Roger:

Of course we can control our borders. Countries all over the world do it. Can we keep every illegal out? No, but that is a strawman argument. I love the idea of immigration. I don’t want every current illegal alien kicked out. But if we start with the notion that it is impossible to control our borders then the uncontrolled immigration will not stop and the abuse that is heaped on these illegals will not stop. They die in the desert, they have to pay their life savings to enter the country so they often arrive broke and they are forced to accept any job under any conditions. Will there be some transition problems from uncontrolled to controlled? Of course but the abuses of the uncontrolled system are worse then the transition problems will be. And if we simply say, We are open, everyone can come then you can be sure that number of immigrants will explode and it is a naive fantasy to think we can absorb all the poor of the entire world. The current system of black market labor hurts everyone involved.

May 1, 2006 - 12:51 pm 39. Coisty:

Kevin Peters: Coisty:

Studies have proven that slave societies and economies that depend on stoop labour eventually lose out to more efficient sytems. The South lost the civil war because the slave economy was more costly to preserve and produced less the the non-slave North.

Yes, the South is a perfect example of what happens when a society relies too much on “stoop labour”.

The U.S.is importing an entire underclass. (Incidentally, the already existing black underclass is being hit hard by Latino immigration yet the Democrats who normally claim to be concerned about blacks clearly don’t give a damn). Robert Samuelson in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/20/AR2005092001412.html) has pointed out Hispanics account for three quarters of the rise in poverty. The demagogue’s among the Democrats must be licking their chops.

Unfortunately there is little evidence to suggest that Hispanics (other than Cubans) will improve their situation through education. More likely the children of those hard workers today will be ripe for multiculturalist grievance-mongering in the future.

May 1, 2006 - 12:54 pm 40. Godzilla:

eaanders,

In fact, the oligarchic PRI party is poised to make a comeback in the next Mexican election. I have no doubt that it is the peasants that are coming across the border. It’s a sorry picture over there. In none of the countries that were once under Spanish control do you want to be an indigenous indian, even today. With the exception, of course, the southern U.S.

May 1, 2006 - 12:55 pm 41. Terrye:

I support border security and a guest worker program. I think we need to reform our immigration system. But with a relatively tight labor market I think most of these people are here because they need and want the work and they can find and get that work.

Maybe some Americans would do some these jobs, but when it comes to certain jobs there has always been some need for migrant workers. But it has gotten out of hand.

Believe it or not a drunk driver without insurance or a valid drivers liucense can kill or cripple you no matter where he is from and I fail to understand what something like that has to do with the larger issue of immigration.

The numbers vary from 8 to 12 million and some cross the border and some just stay after entering legally. Most of them are not bad people. That does not mean we can just ignore the law however, and so while I support immigration and consider it necessary for our country to continue to grow and prosper I do think we need to overhaul the system and secure the borders.

I also think the May Day demonstrations have more to do with trying to peel away hispanic votes from the Republicans than it does with rights for anyone.

May 1, 2006 - 12:57 pm 42. ed:

Hmmmm.

Well, there are lots of ways that Mexico and America differ… I prefer that we not try to imitate a fiscally screwed, politically flawed and nearly third world nation.

They why do you advocate bringing 50+ million Mexicans into America?

May 1, 2006 - 12:59 pm 43. ed:

Hmmmm.

As there are estimates of over 10 million illegal aliens… Remember, ignorant doesn’t mean stupid, it means uninformed.

And a large number of them are men here looking for work. If you make them legal then the next step is for them to bring their families, which would inflate the total number into excessof 50+ million

So which is it? Are you in favor of bringing 10 million or 50 million? Or 60 million? 70 million? 100 million? 120 million?

About 120 million Americans voted in the last Presidential election. Adding just 5 million new voters would change the political landscape. Adding 50 million would devastate the existing political system.

Yes, I’m aware of the numbers… perhaps I should have reworded my sentence so that it stated: ” “There will always be illegal aliens… even if we deport *insert large number here* of them.”

Ok then in place of “*insert large number here*” put in 30,000,000. In which case your statement is utterly foolish. If we did deport 30,000,000 illegals then there’s very little chance that there would be any significant number of illegals remaining.

Is that less ignorant for ya buddy?

Unfortunately no.

May 1, 2006 - 1:06 pm 44. Kevin Peters:

Coisty:
Employers who want day labor drive into certain parts of Southern california and pick up willing workers. They don’t go to Compton or Watts, where there is a serious unemployment issue. Teenage and adult unemployment in the black ghetto’s is severe and all the social problems that come with it are costing us a fortune. I am not talking about picking strawberries. Most of the agricultural work is in the central valley of our state. “They won’t do these jobs.” Bull. They are not given a chance.Many of them stand on the corners because they don’t have anything else to do. Drive into Compton or Watts, tell them when you will be there, they want the money and they want to work. Will minimum wage have to be paid? Of course. It should be paid. And once they develop some job skills they will be able to advance up the pay scale. They will do entry level construction. They will do other low level pay work. Instead we import other countries poor and ignore our own. And some who want the black market labor scam to continue call those who want controlled immigration racists.

May 1, 2006 - 1:16 pm 45. Terrye:

Kevin:

I don’t think it is that simple. If the Mexicans can get up here from Mexico, why can’t those kids get out there to get a job?

Desire has something to do with it.

I was reading somewhere on line about crops going bad in the fields in some places where there were no migrant workers. The locals preferred a fast food joint or nothing to working out in the fields.

Can you imagine the reaction if growers and employers started showing up with buses and dragging kids off to work? My guess is someone would make it harder not easier for them to do that. The sad thing is the hispanics will just jump in there and work..no bitching and moaning and Mom demanding more money for the kid etc.

May 1, 2006 - 1:30 pm 46. DanM:

Man, I didn’t expect blowback on my post about my nephew… Maybe a bit too close to it…

Terrye said – “Believe it or not a drunk driver without insurance or a valid drivers liucense can kill or cripple you no matter where he is from and I fail to understand what something like that has to do with the larger issue of immigration.

Terrye, the point was not that he was injured, the point I was trying to make was -

The perpetrator:

1. Was in the country illegaly.
2. Was released by the local law enforcement – they couldn’t hold him for “being an illegal”.
3. Apparently took advantage of the fact that it is “common” for illegals to feel that they can circumvent our legal system by running back across the border, then returning.

So, to address the relevance issue, I was trying to illustrate the damage done by illegals that have no respect for our laws. Why should they, they are already criminals in the eyes of the law…. Make them accountable. I am very pro legal immigration. I would just like to find that 1 illegal that was on Hwy 316 close to Athens, GA. on February 7th, 2005.

Too touchy a subject for me, I’ll just shut up now.

May 1, 2006 - 1:31 pm 47. Joe Schmoe:

Kevin-

The illegal aliens are far better workers than the native-born American poor.

It’s not just a racial thing. I used to work at a Wendy’s restaurant that was literally right next to a housing project. This particular project had residents of all ethnicities; Vietnamese, Asian Indian, Puerto Rican, Hispanic, and African-American.

Our restaurant was always short of help and we would hire anyone who applied. During the 2 years I was there, we probably hired 20 people from the projects. Not one of them lasted for more than two weeks. Not a single one. They’d just stop showing up to work, or they’d steal from the register. A couple came to work drunk or high. One (a woman) was fired after threatening to beat up a customer.

During the last 6 months or so that I was there, we got our first illegal alien employee. Anyone who has ever worked in the restauarant business will tell you what a great day this was. Our chronic labor problems were solved instanty, becuase illegals always have friends who are looking for work.

Every single one of the illegals was a hard worker. Some were more capable than others, and a few were more dedicated than others, but they were all head and shoulders above the native-born American underclass.

The reason why teenagers and young men don’t get hired in Compton is becuase the Mexicans are superior workers. No question about it. This really sucks if you are a hardworking black guy, but the brutal fact is that on average, Mexicans work much, much harder than blacks. Working for less than minimum wage has absolutely nothing to do with it, we paid minimum wage and above and the Mexicans still worked ten times harder. If black people want those entry level jobs they are going to have to work harder than the Mexicans.

May 1, 2006 - 1:48 pm 48. Kevin Peters:

Terrye:
I am not talking about stoop field labor. I am talking about entry level construction. I am talking about landscape work.I am talking about other forms of manual labor that sometimes can lead to a skill later on. For migratory agriculture we may need immigrants. The employers are driving to the day laborers in Santa Ana and east L.A. they could just as easily turn west instead of east and south.

The major grocery stores struck a deal with their unions and elimnated their janitor jobs from the union payscale. Was 18 dollars to much to pay for someone mopping the floor? Probably. But 10 to 12 dollars an hour, even 7, more then anyone gets at most burger joints, was feasable. Instead they subcontracted the labor out and these firms used illegals. When someone got hurt they dropped them of at the county hospital and picked up another one.They packed these workers into small apts and treated then like dirt. When the labor boards caught them they would reform under another corporate name and continue the same practice.

African Americans and poor whites always performed these jobs at fairly low wages. They would do them before. Of course they won’t work for 3 bucks an hour. AA’s stand line to work at McDonalds. They would perform many of the non agriculture jobs that are given to illegals. All of them? Maybe not, but that is when you bring in immigrants. If you flood an area with immigrant labor then of course wages will drop and these jobs become “Americans won’t do it” jobs. And since they are given 50 cents an hour in their homelands of course these immigrants will leave their homes rather then starve.
Certain industries need immigrant labor. especially agriculture. I think you come from a rural area and you know way more then I about agriculture but I have read, tell me if I am way off base, that many large agricultural concerns, especially in parts of South America, are getting away from stoop labor and are investing in mechanical picking and will eventually outproduce any concern that sticks with stoop labor. I would be interested in your imput. I don’t blame the immigrants. If I was hungry I would do the same thing. I blame our government, and our buisness community, and the citizens who vote to keep this absurd system afloat.

May 1, 2006 - 2:03 pm 49. Coisty:

Terrye – Mexicans are more likely to drink and drive. No one is saying they are the only ones who do so but it is clearly not something that they are as sensitive about as Americans. Remember a year or so ago the city of Oakland temporarily stopped driver checks because more Hispanics were being stopped – with good reason. Once they arrive in an area in large numbers they will form an ethnic power block and almost inevitably will become politicized against out-groups. That makes basic law enforcement and other attributes of a functioning civil society difficult as everything becomes an ethnic issue.

Brenda Walker on drunk driving at the anti-immigrant website VDare. She may against immigration, legal and illegal, from the get-go but the stats can be checked:

Assistant Dean at the University of Texas School of Public Health in Dallas Raul Caetano put it this way, “The profile of a drunk driver in California is a young Hispanic male, and I bet you have a similar situation all over the Southwest.” He referred to a national survey, saying, “The traditional pattern of drinking in Mexico is one of infrequent drinking of high amounts.” [A troubling trend: Hispanics and DWI Latinos account for nearly half of 2002 Austin arrests By Claire Osborn and Andy Alford Austin American-Statesman Sunday, July 20, 2003]

Statistics from Austin support the observations of these men: Of 3,007 drunken driving arrests in 2002, 43 percent involved Hispanic men, even though they comprised only about 11 percent of the city’s driving population. And the story is similar elsewhere: North Carolina drunk driving arrests of Hispanics in 2000 amounted to 12.3 percent of the total 87,781 DUI arrests, while Latinos were 4.7 percent of the population according to the Census.

That is just one of many non-economic costs of mass illegal immigration.

May 1, 2006 - 2:04 pm 50. Joe Schmoe:

Kevin,

They packed these workers into small apts and treated then like dirt.

Nope. The workers packed themselves into small apartments. Becuase they want to be here that badly. They’ll make any sacrifice to stay in America.

AA’s stand line to work at McDonalds.

1. Big deal. Illegals risk their lives walking accross the desert and travel 3,000 miles to work at McDonalds.

2. The AA’s may stand in line and fill out applications, but a lot of them will be fired or quit even if they do get the job. In entry-level jobs, illegals work harder than 95% of the African-Americans.

I think we should limit immigration too. It’s a bad idea to import an underclass, and that is what we are doing. And to the extent that it is possible to refrain from embracing third world wage scales and working conditions, I am for that too.

But don’t kid yourself. Employers hire illegals because they are superior workers. It’s not becuase they work for less than minimum wage (you really only see that in SoCal, and even there it isn’t the norm, probably 90% of illegals make minimum wage or better). It’s becuase they are harder working and more dedicated.

Frankly, I thought that the people who worked in the projects next to my old Wendy’s could have used a kick in the ass. I got up at 5:45 and went to work every day, but they couldn’t be bothered. A little hard work and dedication wouldn’t kill them. If they are whining about illegals taking all the jobs, I have absolutely no sympathy.

May 1, 2006 - 2:20 pm 51. f15c:

“The illegal aliens are far better workers than the native-born American poor.”

It is not that simple. Let me put it this way:

Most illegals are not immigrants, rather they are illegal aliens. Most (80% or more) are here to work and get money to send back home or take back home with them when they return, not to become citizens. As such the pay they receive here is a significantly greater than what they could get in their homeland. Up to fifty times as much. Illegal aliens are, by and large, paid sub-market wages and rarely receive benefits here (not all, but most).

So say we cut their already sub-market pay here. Cut it to the point where it is equivalent, in their homeland dollars, to an amount that is sub-market in their homeland. How many would take the jobs here if they paid sub-market homeland equivalent wages? Answer: None.

And you would be every bit as wrong in describing the illegal alien workers who refused to take those jobs as lazy or any of the other terms that are now used to describe American workers? It is economics, not race, creed, or national origin.

That is the situation American workers are facing due to the artificial depression of wages caused by the large supply of labor that is willing and able to accept sub-market wages.

As we are a capitalist economy, if the cheap labor pool went away, supply and demand would adjust – and contrary to the propaganda that some mistakenly believe, the world would not end. Businesses would do what they are supposed to in capitalist economy and either pay wages high enough to attract workers, use technology and mechanization to alleviate the labor shortage, or go out of business.

That is supply and demand working at its essence. The economy would adjust, more Americans would be working and receiving wages and benefits based on what the market will support. Some businesses would go under, others would rise up to meet the changing need. That is what our economy is all about. If you donít believe that, then explain why we are not all working in buggy whip factories today.

As of right now though, employers that hire illegal aliens are receiving unfair advantages through what is effectively a government ‘program’ to provide them with a labor pool whose sub-market wages are artificially maintained and not subject to the same wage and benefit pressures as other labor pools in the bigger economy.

Left alone our economy would adjust and if there is enough demand for products and services in those areas that were once subsidized by our government’s deliberate inaction on illegal immigration, those segments of the economy will thrive, if demand is not high enough to support those segments they will go away.

And that is exactly how it should be.

May 1, 2006 - 2:35 pm 52. GaryK:

A lot of the discussion here is very theoretical. How about some in your face reality.

Went to the SFW in Manassas, VA recently and was hit up in the parking lot by a young Hispanic women with a baby in a stroller, didn’t get a chance to read the 3 X 5 card she brandished. Two days prior to this, in the same parking lot, an apparently well-fed middle aged Hispanic woman, who I believe I have fended off once or twice before, hands me the obligatory 3×5 card “I have four children.” I go inside and try to find onions but, they have been moved yet again to make room for more vegetables that Hispanics like. Turned onto Sudley Road, the main drag, alert for the many groups of Hispanic teenagers and mothers with children in tow who now cross in the middle of the block. Went to Home Despot and luckily did not encounter the Hispanic panhandler who works this parking lot, his 3×5 begins “I am deaf…” Our taxes are among the highest in the country, we have social services up the wazoo and these guys are asking me for money?

We moved out from Fairfax county to this area almost 8 years ago for the somewhat slower pace of life, more affordable housing and a lower crime rate. When we moved here there were no panhandlers, Hispanic or otherwise, no groups of teenagers hanging out on corners, no dollar stores, no check cashing shops, no rough characters mooching around making Manassas look like Nuevo Laredo. Last time we tried to get care for an injury at the local hospital’s emergency room, it was jammed with many Hispanics with lots of children, families who are mostly uninsured, to judge from the $700,000 bill for uninsured patients that the hospital reported it paid last year. We left after waiting 3 hours; we never got to see a doctor.

Eight years ago the local paper’s crime page used to cover an inch or so, listing mostly small time crimes, now it’s more often half the page,and more of the crimes are violent and/or involve drugs and many of the names are Hispanic. Over the last two years or so there have been several bloody MS-13 attacks at the Mall and elewhere with machetes being the weapon of choice. The lead story in a recent local paper concerned the trial of two Hispanics, both illegals, for the murder of a third Hispanic man, also an illegal, in an MS-13 killing. We now have a rag-tag group of loiterers at the local Giant. They found a body dumped behind this Giant about 6 months ago: I’m sure these developments are just great for business. Two prostitution operations which, according to the local paper, “catered to Hispanics only,” were raided in formerly nice residential areas of Manassas this year alone. Also this year, the head of the Manassas school system, now swamped by Hispanic children, was mysteriously and abruptly forced out with the only reason given being that he was, as the paper put it, not as receptive as he should be to teaching English to non-native speakers.

This doesn’t feel like immigration, it feels like an invasion.

May 1, 2006 - 3:20 pm 53. Snippet:

Maybe we “anti-illigal-immigration” type should consider a change of tactics.

Maybe we should start calling ourselves:

“Pro-Mexican-Economy-The-Primary-Export-of-which-is-Something-Other-Than-People-Seeking-a-non-Sucky-Life” advocates.

Kinda clunkly, I know, but a start?

May 1, 2006 - 3:53 pm 54. prw:

I wanted to add a few discussion points.

First, like GaryK, my community has changed dramatically, but over a slightly longer timeframe, say 25 years. I would estimate that Dallas/Ft. Worth has close to one million illegal migrants. It is so overwhelming, I like to tell people up North I am from Mexico.

Incidentally, I travelled through towns in Oklahoma recently, and happened to notice many local kids working in the fast food restaurants. My immediate thought was, “Just wait 10 years, and these places will be completely different”. Almost all menial jobs and 100% of construction jobs will be taken over by illegal migrants.

This human tidal wave is creeping north, so the sleeping people further away from the border will be in for a rude awakening fairly soon.

Second, by researching on the internet, I have learned the complicity of the Mexican government is appalling. Government officials and elites at the highest levels are actively supporting this huge exodus of their underclass to the United States. Their lobbying effort appears to be the sole purpose of their existence. What’s even worse is the success they are having.

Third, I have a burning question. Why should we passively accept one-half the current population of Mexico to colonize the USA over a 40 year period?

I am begging anyone and everyone who reads this site to research this issue further, and then educate your family and friends. The MSM is not keeping us informed.

May 1, 2006 - 10:32 pm 55. Gary Rosen:

Joe Schmoe: “Illegal immigrants work harder than native-born Americans”

DanM: “Illegal immigrants are much more likely to break the law”

These two observations are not mutually inconsistent. I have long felt that most illegals come here for the same reasons our ancestors did – to make a better life for themselves and their families. And I suspect it is only a small proportion (encouraged by native-born leftists ala ANSWER) that worry about reestablishing “Aztlan”.

But with 10 million illegals, it doesn’t take a large proportion to create a lot of (other) lawbreaking, and if you come here illegally you’re an outlaw right off the bat. A couple months ago I visited NYC and went to Ellis Island. I found out that every single person who came through there was given an medical exam and an interview asking why they wanted to immigrate to the US. With millions in transit this was certainly perfunctory to some extent but everyone was given a very clear message that they were expected to become law-abiding Americans. Not a message I see heavily emphasized in today’s demonstrations.

In short, we need immigration – *legal* immigration. Not to mention the need to monitor our borders in the wake of 9/11.

May 1, 2006 - 11:45 pm 56. Gary Rosen:

dclydew:

“Great point… however, unless you honestly believe that we can actually stop illegal aliens from entering the country, its rather moot.”

We can’t stop murder either, might as well legalize it. Next time a coworker irks you, just blow his head off. Smart thinking.

Snippet:

“Maybe we should start calling ourselves:

“Pro-Mexican-Economy-The-Primary-Export-of-which-is-Something-Other-Than-People-Seeking-a-non-Sucky-Life” advocates.”

Excellent point (really, not ironically like my 1st response here). This is the true root of the problem. Don’t have any easy answers at my fingertips, though.

May 2, 2006 - 12:10 am 57. markus:

I’m with the moderate, pro-legal immigration, pro-assimilation crowd. What is missing here is Presidential leadership, to get Congress to stand up to the partisans on both sides, both of whom make valid points themselves while completely dismissing the equally valid arguments of the other side. Real leadership would urge Congress and the American people to face reality, on the need for amnesty, assimilation, effective, no-bullshit border control and workplace enforcement, and some degree of increased legal opportunities to come to America. Roger’s right: Bush is basically in the right place on this. But he’s such a lousy politician he can’t make the deal happen, like Clinton would have been able to do with a Republican Congress. Bush may do better if Dems win the House in the fall. In fact, comprehensive immigration reform just might turn into his only significant 2nd term accomplishment.

May 2, 2006 - 7:15 am 58. Ratilius:

@promoguy

i didn¥t mean to hurt your feelings, but wanted to express my belief, that it might be a oppurtunity to translate your anthem, to make its rather emotional content accessible to everyone.

During official ceremonies the language should of course stay “the original”.

(quote promoguy)
I wouldn’t expect you to know the words as I didn’t even when I lived there.
(unquote promoguy)

I am unsure if your “there” refers to the U.S.A.,
in this case you should probably question your participation in a discussion about your own anthem,
or to Germany, what would explain why you quoted a mistakable chunck of the first verse of the former german anthem, which was sung until the end of
WW II, when this verse was prohibited.

@topic
i understand the fear many people feel towards foreigners but, who if not the U.S.A. should have the space and the wealth to cope with immigrants.
I am going to follow the discussion with great interest.

May 2, 2006 - 10:35 am 59. Kevin Peters:

Ratilius:
The argument isn’t pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration. It’s about immigration that is controlled by our own citizens and our own government or immigration that is controlled by the flesh peddlers who exploit the illegals.Of course immigration is good. But open border immigration is a nightmare.We have a defacto open border. If you get here the odds of getting caught are slim and every ten 0r twenty years there will be calls for amnesty. It sets up a permanent underclass that depresses wages for our own native poor. Those illegals who do make a foothold in our economy will be undercut by the even more destitute illegals who will come once we declare that we will never deport illegals unless they are in jail. Look at the Reagan era amnesty. The very promises of ‘just give legal status to these immigrants and then thats it.”12 million illegals later we know what a bill of goods that promise is.

May 2, 2006 - 6:28 pm 60. Ratilius:

thanks for the explanation. in the article I read (and that made me search for this site), was only stated that there are many people upset about the translated anthem, without mentioning the existing problems with immigrants.
so i guess the “anthem” thing is just the tip of an iceberg and the media dont exactly lie but sometimes omit enlightening information

May 3, 2006 - 2:34 am

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