57 Comments

1. ShrinkWrapped:

I think it would be a disaster for us if Europe slips back into fascism or falls apart into Balkanization, which seem to be the two most likely outcomes of their current difficulties. I am not at all certain there is anything we can do to help them prevent it; certainly supporting their multicultural PC-blindness is unwise and they are hardly likely to appreciate or listen to any advice we can offer, so I do not see what we can do to change their perceptions at the moment.
As an addendum, I would spend much more time worrying about them and trying to find solutions if they didn’t make such a fetish of their anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism. They have never been very reluctant to tell us or the Israelis how to handle our enemies (which includes being more understanding of how we are the sources of our enemy’s hatred, ie “root causes”). I think all we can do is be interested onlookers. I am not at all interested in my son being sent to Belgium as a “Peacekeeper” in five years time.

May 3, 2006 - 8:41 am 2. scribe10:

“To be honest, while I think Clive is correct about some nouveau “ugly Americanism,” Europe has got such severe problems of its own that the the latest round of escalating Yankee Go Home (or stay out) mood smacks of a bit out of the old Freudian projection (i. e. blame the other for your problems).”

Well, to be honest, I have lost patience with Europe and won’t be traveling there this summer.

Let them keep to themselves.

Paris ain’t what it used to be, no how; and neither is London town. Europe sounds and smells more like a North African bazar.

May 3, 2006 - 8:50 am 3. scribe10:

“Much of that is not Europe’s fault, but the result of Islamic cultures and belief systems that are still in the Dark Ages and have little desire to be assimilated.”

Then again, countries like Sweden with their old anti-Jewish animosity did all they could and still do to coddle the Arabs there. Why then should they assimilate?

May 3, 2006 - 8:52 am 4. Sandy P:

Tony threw their lot in w/frankenreich a long time ago, look at the defense issues. This was in 2000, pre-W.

They have never liked US, we defeated them, which was the beginning of their end, they either ignored US or are mad cos we were late to their 2 world wars and we took their birthright away. Most Americans don’t even realize we have it and don’t want it and of course it’s our fault.

When have their suggestions been right? On the whole, they’ve been wrong. Straw’s “good friend” and soon to be out-of-a-job Dom did a full frontal on Colin at the UN. We were there why? Because Tony wanted US to go.

—

Only good will and historic ties keep us together. Mother is senile and has chosen the sausage and oven maker and the gigolo over her offsprings. And W is bringing her offspring closer to defend her even in her senility. But I’m not going to agree to save the chocolatemakers. Send Notre Dame over brick by brick and empty the Louvre, once the islamofascist vermin destroy the Sphinxes, they’d better get a clue.

They’re now heading US in NATO.

May 3, 2006 - 9:00 am 5. Godzilla:

“Sadly, my impression is that too many US conservative commentators, in the mainstream and blogosphere alike, are locked into that tiresome and deeply parochial “Why don’t they love us?” routine.

Can’t recall too reading too many articles written by conservatives worrying about getting Europe’s blessing.

Nor can I recall Hannity, 0′Reily, Coulter, or Scarborough wringing their hands over Europe’s perpetual frown.

I can remember Madeline AlBright, Helen Thomas, and Eleanor Clift making talking points about this.

Maybe Clive better stick to what he knows best, which is yet to be determined.

May 3, 2006 - 9:14 am 6. Curmudgeon:

I think a lot of us feel about Europe the way I feel about people I used to hang with during college. we keep in touch sporadically and think we’re still friends. Then you get a chance to sit down with them and renew the relationship, only to find that you never really knew them as well as you thought you did, and what you thought of as minor, possibly even charming quirks, have metastasized into truly malignant personality disorders and pathological thinking.
By the way, a lot of the “old ugly Americanism” seems to me to have been a natural cosequence of the fact that America was the only counry rich enough that its uncultured peasant class could afford to travel the world.

May 3, 2006 - 9:21 am 7. Old Dad:

Roger,

You’re right about the PR problems, and a strong Europe is clearly in our best interest, at least for now.

I personally admire the Western tradition, and I’m sad to see it slipping away, but let’s face facts. European culture has been decadent for many years, and ours is slipping away, too, but at a slower rate it seems to me.

The Europeans have chosen not to defend themselves, and they’ve strapped themselves with an untenable socialist economy and huge unassimilated immigrant populations. The Euros shouldn’t worry too much about the ugly American. They should worry about Mohammed down the street.

May 3, 2006 - 9:21 am 8. mythusmage:

Demographics, tribalism, idealism, and societal post traumatic stress disorder. Not a good combination. Italy’s emptying out, Norway’s living under self-imposed poverty, and France is preparing for dissolution.

And we keep being successful. Evil us.

Europe: Muslims don’t want to assimilate, and Europeans don’t want them to.

America: Muslims don’t want to assimilate, and Americans keep refusing to put up any serious barriers to their assimilation. Muslims haven’t a prayer.

That’s the thing about assimilation, both parties have to cooperate to keep the outsiders outside. We refuse to cooperate.

May 3, 2006 - 9:28 am 9. RAZ:

You write: “By the way, I would agree with Clive that the public relations aspect of the Bush Administration has been a disaster. It’s hard to believe they are so unsophisticted about that. The appointment of Tony Snow may be an improvement, but much more is needed.” Although I agree that the Bush Administration’s PR efforts seem abysmal, at best, I would also point out that the Main Stream Media has not played a helpful role by deliberately spinning every piece of good news for Bush in the opposite direction. The MSM’s biased reporting pose a very high obstacle for any Bush PR effort. Tony Snow has a real job on his hands trying to surmount that obstacle!

May 3, 2006 - 9:28 am 10. David Thomson:

ìI would also point out that the Main Stream Media has not played a helpful role by deliberately spinning every piece of good news for Bush in the opposite direction.î

The Bush administration has done a lousy job in getting its message out. It is my opinion that the president feels uncomfortable in tooting his own horn. In back of his mind, George W. Bush believed that eventually the truth would come out. One is suppose to let their actions speak louder than their words. Is my theory at least half way tenable? It really doesnít matter. All that was in the past. The hiring of Tony Snow symbolizes a new tone at the White House.

May 3, 2006 - 10:00 am 11. patrick neid:

talk about getting your panties in a bunch! i’m always amazed with how serious folks take the ever changing but ever constant harping that goes from europe toward the united states. thank god most people here just don’t pay any attention to it. admittedly this neglect actually inflames said passions. as history continually reminds, this to shall pass. a casual perusal of historical writings reveals that the europeans–the aristocracy as they see themselves–has been yelling at us since the early 1600’s. forgive me if i ignore them. in fact i’m actually happy we are starting to tell them to f’k off. we have adult things to do these days. when these are done we’ll go back to monitoring the crib……..

May 3, 2006 - 10:26 am 12. Kevin Peters:

Roger:

For generations Americans put up with the constant lecturing from our so called superiors. It is hard to take when you think you are better then someone but you have to rely on them for your self defense. This breeds the shame that makes one launch out in anger. The boorish tourist is a once true but know mythical cliche that Wurope has clung to for too long. Especially tough considering the soccer hooligan trend. Every country has it’s fair share of boorish pigs.

We beg for their help. They lecture us. When they are in trouble,Bosnia, Kosovo, we go and help them with a generous heart.We are still there. They don’t call us occupiers when we are tending to their troubles, we are peace keepers. I think it is about time we stop with the “We are so rich so we will pay for their defense” NATO philosophy.We saved them from Hitler. We kept them from suffering the fate of eastern europe. We financed the rebuilding of their countries that were crushed after WWII. We travel there and spend our money while they look down on us and raise their nose. When they travel to the states we treat them like guests while they continue to lecture us. Pull our troops out of Europe. All of them. When the next Kosovo or Bosnia happens we will tell them that we have stopped our cultural imperialism and we do not want to interfere with European matters, we don’t want to appear to be rude.Pay for your own Army, we are no longer your body guards. Good luck.

May 3, 2006 - 10:30 am 13. Godzilla:

While I have not read this anywhere, which, given the bias of the European press, doesn’t surprise me, but,

I wonder to what extent the fear of Turkey’s eventual inclusion into the European Union had on France’s nixing of the EU.

What would the immigration look like with Turkey acting as an open funnel?

Yikes!

And think of the voting power Turkey would have had.

Here’s a search result using the keywords: EU and Turkey and Germany

EU and Turkey

May 3, 2006 - 10:34 am 14. tim maguire:

Roger: like you, I hope to spend my dotage in Europe, Barcelona to be precise. But I worry–what will it look like in 20 years?

I don’t really care what Europe thinks of the US. My fear is not that Bush will continue to fail in getting our message out. I think our message is positive enough that, over time, it will get out no matter how inept we are at projecting it.

I do really care about Europe’s plan for its own future–it’s no secret that old Europe is in serious denial about it’s declining situation. If major war breaks out, we’ll come in again to the rescue. No matter how much some of us tell each other we’re sitting out the next one, we won’t. We’ll step in and make the sacrifices to fix the mess. It’s what we do.

But more I worry short of that–simply that Europe seems to be losing its soul. That Europe may stop being “Europe.” Even without war, it will continue its decline until the peoples and cultures that we think of when we think of Europe just won’t be there anymore.

May 3, 2006 - 10:41 am 15. ic:

“The Euros shouldn’t worry too much about the ugly American. They should worry about Mohammed down the street.” But it’s much safer to cover-up your impotence by blaming the ugly Americans than by standing up to head choppers.

“George W. Bush believed that eventually the truth would come out. One is suppose to let their actions speak louder than their words.” Truth did come out, but was suppressed and spinned.

Truth: WMD in Iraq, Spin: no nukes.
Truth: Saddam’s intelligence agent’s meeting and agreement to support al Q, Spin: who cares, that’s old news.
Truth: French objection to invasion was probably due to her president’s close advisors were skimming from the Oil-for-Food, Spin: no big deal, everybody’s doing it.
Truth: Koffi Annan was lining his and his son’s pockets, Spin: he’s against America’s hedgemony. Truth: economy is growing leaps and bounds, Spin: all our high paying jobs are outsourced.
Truth: the govt. is collecting wind fall gas taxes, Spin: big oil is reaping obscene profits. Truth: bottled drinking water costs at least $4.00 per gallon vs. $3.00 gas; the bottling companies don’t have to spend a dime or incur any risks in ‘dried holes’, Spin: those who don’t give a thought purchasing a 99 cent a bottle drinking water, rant about filling up their tanks.
Truth: most of the things that happen have nothing to do with Bush, Spin: it’s Bush’s fault.

Truth doesn’t matter. Whatever Bush’s PR machine does, doesn’t matter. According to contemporary historians, he’s the worst president we’ve ever had.

May 3, 2006 - 10:45 am 16. promoguy:

“By the way, I would agree with Clive that the public relations aspect of the Bush Administration has been a disaster. It’s hard to believe they are so unsophisticted about that. The appointment of Tony Snow may be an improvement, but much more is needed”

I believe it is Dennis Prager who has said on numerous occasion that “the democrats are the party of the dangerous and I belong to the Republican Party, the party of the stupid”

or something like that.

May 3, 2006 - 10:48 am 17. Bruce Badger:

I’m certain that at least some of you have read Davids Medienkritik or No Pasaran!. After reading the typical Anti-American garbage spewing out of Der Spiegel, Le Monde, or a typical article in the Guardian or Telegraph, it is obvious that Americans need to grovel for European forgiveness and understanding.

How dare they suggest that WE need to be more diplomatic? When Europeans hurl insults, spew lies, and invent ever more ugly epitaphs, should they be shocked or surprised that we cease to listen? Not only are most Americans uninterested in the opinion of the EU brotherhood, but their hostility is beginning to be returned.

I’ve discovered it is possible, through repeated betrayal, abuse, and scorn, to turn a friend into an enemy. Appears our good friend Clive has yet to have that epiphany.

May 3, 2006 - 11:00 am 18. trainer:

I’ve been on a recent kick doing some reading of 1930s to 40s foreign war coorespondents – mostly English and Australian.

Generally their comments about pre-war America vis a vis the enlightened Europe of the 30s would be very familiar to us now.

They looked down on us when our military was weaker than that of Portugal, and they look down on us now. Listening to Europe only gets us (and the world) in trouble.

Let ‘em live or die. A recent history of 50 years of socialism isn’t enough to wipe out 1000 years of European bloody mindedness – they could wake up and react to their problems in a typical manner – distruction of themselves and everyone around.

Europe is a tourist destination rapidly going to seed – it always has been. Any other use for Europe has always been trouble.

May 3, 2006 - 11:04 am 19. Sandy P:

I posted a few thoughts over there.

What has changed and they don’t know how to deal w/it is we’re finally answering them back. So of course we’re nationalistic. We’re supposed to take it front and back.

The net made it possible. They can’t hide anymore.

We read their papers and talk to them now. They haven’t changed.

—

On a side note, someone once posted somewhere if Americans actually read what was in the Mexican papers, we would have had a wall a long time ago.

May 3, 2006 - 11:40 am 20. Randal Robinson:

I’m not sure what Clive is talking about when he says that conservative commentators are engaging in “Why don’t they love us” self pity. That’s much more common in liberal commentators. If anything, the general attitude of conservative commentators toward Europe is closer to hostility than self pity or defeatism.

Anti-Americanism has been going on for centuries in Europe. It may wax and wane to various degrees but it’s always been there. It does seem to intensify though when a Republican is in the White House. I travelled quite a bit in Europe during the ’80s and the contempt for Reagan was every bit as intense then as it is now for Bush.

The difference between then and now is that most Americans back then were blissfully ignorant about the level of anti-Americanism that was prevelant in Europe. The MSM, which looked up to a Europe they saw as culturally superior, rarely reported it unless they were covering anti-US and anti-nuke demonstrations which was reported as a European refutation of Reagan’s policies toward the Soviet Union.

Today, though, with the internet, Fox News, and conservative talk radio, Americans tend to be more aware of European anti-Americanism and are pushing back. One of the things I’ve noticed in participating in political forums is that Europeans can bash American politics and foreign policy all day long, but are incredibly thin-skinned about any American criticisms of European politics. It seems to me that the inferiority of American politics, culture, economics, and foreign policy has become so ingrained in their thinking as to be self-evident and they’re appalled that an American might argue otherwise.

May 3, 2006 - 11:44 am 21. Snippet:

Feeling a little silly here, but, what exactly is a “Europe?”

Is it one of those Dr. Suess creatures? I love those.

May 3, 2006 - 11:46 am 22. robert:

I think its high time that we pulled our bases from Europe. Let them defend themselves. Let them reap the whirlwind. The less interest we have in Europe the greater the likelyhood they might realize the gravity of the situaiton and the economics of the situation. It is time to close the military bases and start removing our vital interests towards a more friendly environment, say Eastern Europe or elsewhere.

May 3, 2006 - 12:08 pm 23. Skookumchuk:

When the French naturalist Buffon maintained that the New World was only capable of creating “inferior” and stunted species, a hurt Thomas Jefferson responded by sending a moose to France.

After 219 years of doing this in one form or another, I think we’ve sent them their last moose.

May 3, 2006 - 12:13 pm 24. Kevin Peters:

Roger:

Since we are the problem and they wish we were not involved with their affairs maybe we should try a “5 years without Americans approach”. We will continue to trade with anyone who likes our products. But we will start a “Focus on America” approach with our money. We have a debt to get back in line, we have schools that need to be rebuilt, we have an infrastrure that needs attention, we need to salt away money to pay for Social Security. We will take all the money that goes out to the world in aid and spend it here. We will take a break from funding the U.N. and the money won’t be held to give to them later. We will ignore the natural dissasters that occur elsewhere. We will let them send their navies to help the poor victims of the next tsunami. Oh, they don’t have a Navy, I’m sorry, you know you hate our poking our noses where we don’t belong, well we are going to take your advice and remove it. Food and aid to Africa? I’m sorry, if you want the medicine that we created get Europe to buy it and give it to you. Milosevic’s, Hutu’s, the murder’s of Sudan, sorry you handle it. We do such a terrible job, Europe can take over. when Putin starts to flex his muscles, sorry we only trade with him, as long as he pays thats all we care about. The people of Cuba, if you enjoy living with no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, well, little to no freedom at all, deal with it your self.We will open up trade with anyone who grabs power. no matter how horrid their civil rights record is. South Korea, good luck with the Dear Leader, we are pulling out. Japan, worried about China, Oh, well. U.N., since our percentage of donations compared to our GDP is so small you won’t miss the actual volume of money we give you.And that includes the private aid, the money in food, and the money we spend on our military that bails you out periodicaly. Tourism? well we won’t legally stop anyone from visiting the old continent but we will put such social pressure on our citizens to visit their own country that , well lets just say you will get your wish and won’t have to suffer ugly Americans for the next 5 years.As stated above, this won’t happen because this is not in our nature. But sometimes this sounds appealing after another set of lectures from a continent that developed two of the worst dictators in the history of the world and started two of the most bloody and costly wars ever fought.

May 3, 2006 - 12:27 pm 25. Jamie Irons:

Skook,

Is that moose story really true?

It’s quite funny.

Did the French proceed to cook the poor thing with a bechamel sauce?

And is Buffon cognate with buffoon?

Jamie Irons

May 3, 2006 - 12:36 pm 26. Old Dad:

Skookumchuk,

Classic thanks. As I recall the story, Jefferson was livid. The specimen was not as large as he had ordered, and it was shipped as a box of bones and a pelt. A horn had come loose. Good old American ingenuity and baling wire apparently set things right. Buffon merely sniffed and insisted that his, ahem, was bigger.

May 3, 2006 - 12:42 pm 27. prs(TM):

Not to mention Europe’s looming economic problems (see the recent Italy-specific article on TCSDaily).

Of course, that could make that Tuscan villa much more affordable, they’re between 1 and 2 million bucks right now.

I personally prefer Cinque Terre, though.

May 3, 2006 - 12:45 pm 28. JeremyR:

The Tories don’t like Bush because he is friends with Blair. And they hate Blair as much as Democrats hate Bush (or the Republicans hated Clinton).

And a lot of it is just Europe shifting to the left. I mean, it’s now considered “anti-gay” to be for civil union for gays, but against “marriage” (which is Bush’s position). But, that’s actually an improvement over any other past president. I don’t remember Clinton or Carter or JFK or FDR or any Democrat president pushing for gay marriage or even civil unions. Clinton’s big pro-gay policy was “Don’t ask, don’t tell”. And “hostiliy towards workers” is basically working 40 hours a week.

It’s also funny, people on the left tend to think Bush has some sort of Orwellian control over the US media. But I think in reality, he doesn’t bother trying to present the case because he thinks its not his job to.

And then there are things like Kyoto. Sure, the US could sign it, but it would never be implemented. Sure, he could lie about it, like Clinton, but he choices not to. But Europe would prefer a lie to make them happy.

May 3, 2006 - 12:45 pm 29. Skookumchuk:

Jamie:

Yup.

Buffon got it, promised to revise his publication, then died before he ever did. Figures.

May 3, 2006 - 12:46 pm 30. Parvus:

Paris ain’t what it used to be, no how; and neither is London town. Europe sounds and smells more like a North African bazar.

Well so does NYC. Lets not celebrate too quick.

Parvus

May 3, 2006 - 1:10 pm 31. Sandy P:

I seem to recall the Tories sending people over to help Cabana Boy’s campaign.

May 3, 2006 - 1:12 pm 32. TomTom:

Unanimity of posters! How refreshing.
Though born there, I was last in Europe 30 years ago, and I’m never going back. NEVER. Don’t need to see my cousins, who are undoubtedly infected with the common thought disorder. That disorder is similar to alcoholism, with denial, self-centeredness and self-pity the major features, and recovery cannot begin until the afflicted hit rock bottom. That may be why making nice to the Euros, as we have done, is an exercise in futility.
I’ve had my share of life’s problems, but thank God being a Euro hasn’t been one of them!

May 3, 2006 - 1:15 pm 33. Barry Dauphin:

By the way, I would agree with Clive that the public relations aspect of the Bush Administration has been a disaster. It’s hard to believe they are so unsophisticted about that.

I don’t know, Roger. I don’t think the Euros have their panties in knots because of poor PR. It’s not the Administration’s communication style that they don’t like, it’s the Administration’s policies that they don’t like. The Administration could do better, but only success will make much of a difference, and even then (or because of that)the Euros will be apoplectic. If we believe that this is generally better policy than the alternatives, we’ll simply have to tough it out and refrain from worrying about Euro opinion. We don’t have to hate them all, but we also don’t have to sacrifice too much for their approval.

The Belmont Club has an interesting report on Gen. Barry McCaffrey’s impressions. To say the least, I was quite surprised. Despite being a long time critic of OIF and hardly an admirer of Rumsfeld, his report is far more positive than I would have suspected and far more positive than most anything I have seen in the MSM. Maybe Bush needs to send him to France.

May 3, 2006 - 1:32 pm 34. Roger:

“I don’t know, Roger. I don’t think the Euros have their panties in knots because of poor PR.”

I certainly agree with you about that, Barry. But the reality is that we are in a war on all fronts – and PR is one of the most important. We have to fight just as hard and be just as expert in that area.

May 3, 2006 - 1:41 pm 35. larwyn:

The “Kids”,Billy and the Clintonistas don’t want you to know what happened/did not happen during their 8 years in office.

But this may be close to signing a confession that the Clinton Administration has a lot to hide:

I hope Tony convinces GW that these stories should be pressed onto the public thru spokeman,
the LSM won’t write/report it!

GatewayPundit: Mary O MaCarthy’s March 2006 donations join other Clintonistas:Sandy Berger/Podesto/Albright/Lake/Hillary to Weldon’s Dem opponent – STOP ABLE DANGER HEARINGS

McCarthy, who worked at the National Security Council when Sestak worked there in the 1990s, donated $100 to Sestak on March 1 and $250 on March 11, according to a campaign finance report the Seventh Congressional District candidate filed with the Federal Election Commission.

Weldon, through a campaign spokesman, said he had joined other Republicans in Congress asking for an investigation into what classified information McCarthy may have disclosed to reporters. Agency officials linked her late last week to reports in the Washington Post disclosing the existence of classified CIA prisons in Eastern Europe and elsewhere

Please cover this breaking news on Dana’s big mouthed buddy and the gag that the Clintonistas are trying to implement by stopping Weldon’s hearings on Able Danger.

Hope someone is going over all the contributions to this DEM candidate with a fine tooth comb.

Hope that they will look for all the VIPS members names on those lists to see how
much Ray McGovern, Lary Johnson and that rogue gang pitched in.

Who else signed this confession that they do not want the public/congress to find out a lot of the truth about those 8 years?????

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/05/clinton-targets-curt-weldon-for.html#comments

Click here: Gateway Pundit: Clinton Targets Curt Weldon for Exposing Able Danger Scandal

Posted 3 “links” as I do not know what works on this site and this is extremely important information that must get out!

May 3, 2006 - 1:54 pm 36. Anthony (Los Angeles):

prs(TM):

Of course, that could make that Tuscan villa much more affordable, they’re between 1 and 2 million bucks right now.

Give me the north coast of California, please, and a nice merlot from Napa. That’s contentment.

May 3, 2006 - 2:24 pm 37. Steven Mitchell:

Familiarity breeds contempt. I vote that we pull all troops out of Germany and then ignore the Germans. Give ‘em 20 years to become a bit less familiar. The French are so far gone, who knows what they can do. I don’t really care on that particular count. Ditto the Belgians.

The rest of the Europeans are perfectly capable of being reasonable at times, and on specific issues. Work with them when our interest coincide. Given the Euro press, the PR issue is unfixable until a generation of Europeans grow up wired to the net. We might spend a bit of time courting Eastern Europe, where it might do some good. I don’t have any problem with bending over backwards a bit for Great Britain occasionally, for old times sake. Otherwise, don’t sweat it.

I’d rather spend diplomatic effort with Japan, Australia, India, etc. I say that we recognize India as a defacto member of the Anglosphere, give Japan an honorary membership in same, and call it a day.

May 3, 2006 - 2:50 pm 38. tioedong:

The Europeans who run their governments and media are essentially the hereditary elites, who see a peaceful globalism and international institutions.
Problems one: Mary Robinson gave a speech lamenting Bush’s refusal to cooperate with their agenda to strengthen international institutions.
I would argue that the reality that these institutions don’t work is being recognized by Bush (and by Clinton, in Kosovo).
Bush’s refusal to play the game with them makes him the enemy.

Problem two: As Bill Murray said:our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We’re the underdog. We’re mutts.
We aren’t ashamed of working with our hands. We go to church. Most of us raise our own kids. And drive our own cars. And don’t bow and kow tow to government officials to get service.
After 9-11 one Brit professor complained in the Responsive Community magazine that Americans said God Bless America too hardily for a petition. How gauche. How lower class.

I wrote in reply that it was not a petition but a blessing: God bless America, for giving us opportunities to better ourselves.

May 3, 2006 - 8:47 pm 39. Brown Line:

Europe is like that old joke about women: Can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em.

Most of our families have roots in Europe. Our culture and language comes from there; the great music and the art that we love, the very words we speak come from that continent. What Lincoln called “the mystic chords of memory” bind us ineradicably to Europe.

However, though most of us are descended from people who the ancestors of today’s Europeans dismissed as rabble and were happy to be rid of. Our ancestors came here to find something that Europe couldn’t give them: opportunity, or freedom, or both; and for the most part, they found what they came here for. I think I speak for most Americans of European ancestry when I say that Europe is a great place to be from.

Consider, too, that there are the different histories of our continents over the past century. The United States has, since the Civil War, enjoyed unity and a steady (though sometimes too slow) progression of rights throughout the entire population. Europe, during the same period, has been shattered by war, revolution, and tyranny.

The fact is that over the past century, hundreds of thousands of Americans have died in Europe’s wars, fighting Europe’s dictators, combating Europe’s pathological political culture. Each fallen American is a martyr to Europe’s inability to govern itself in a civilized manner. In return, Europe’s sacrifices to American political stability have been … what? French intellectuals’ dismissive sneers? Clive Davis’s pursed lips and dwindling patience?

Europe owes us a debt that it can never repay. Although it would be churlish of us to remind them of it, that debt is a fact – and one that we must never forget. The truth is that Europe may not be able to find it in its heart to help us, but it does have the capacity to do us enormous harm; and we must be on guard against that.

So the troops must stay: because a rearmed, remilitarized Germany would be a threat to our children or grandchildren. NATO must remain strong: someone has to sit up and keep watch. And yes, our PR must improve: when the children don’t understand what you’re saying, you must reorder your words, change your tone – and perhaps pick up a switch.

My point is: someone has to be the grown-up, and I’m afraid that that someone is us.

May 3, 2006 - 9:02 pm 40. Luther McLeod:

Just have to say that I am three-quarters through H. W. Brands bio of A. Jackson. The similarities between 1810-20 and now, are either astounding or depressing, depending on one’s point of view. In other words, not much has changed. The US is and has been denigrated by Europe since before our declaration of independence. The aristocracy of europe and marx (a product of europe) both made the wrong call. Yes, we are outnumbered overall, but will the truth of freedom and democracy win out? TBD. We need more Jackson’s and a hell of a lot fewer Kerry’s. Our country depends on it. Apologies for being pedantic.

May 3, 2006 - 10:45 pm 41. HA:

Roger,

We may not be living Fukuyama’s “end of history”, but we are certainly living the end of an era.

The WWII/Cold War era is over and in spite of the good intentions of folks like Davis, there is no going back. It ended when Europe failed to support us in Iraq. The less time lamenting its passing the better. You are reminiscing about an era that is gone forever.

History didn’t end with the collapse of the Soviet Union. It rewound. All the unresolved conflicts and pathologies that have been put on hold for the last 60 years have risen Godzilla-like to the surface and, for better or worse, will now play themselves out.

The American isolationism/European anti-American dynamic goes all the way back to the founding of the Republic. Blame George Washington and his warning of “entangling alliances”, not George Bush’s rejection of Kyoto. The last 60 years were an anomoly, and we are now reverting to the mean.

Europe is now being colonized and Balkanized. There will be conflict in Europe yet again. It is written. But this time, the New World won’t come to the rescue of the old. They will have to stand and fight on their own.

Davis’ post is his way of accepting this reality. He is throwing in the towel. And he is lashing out as a way to rationalize this concession.

May 4, 2006 - 5:13 am 42. Kevin Peters:

HA:
I agree. We have paid our debt to France for her help in our Revolutionary War twenty times over. Bosnia and Kosovo is just the tip of the iceberg. The whole “problem in Europe’ is starting up all over again. My initial response is “oh, we must throw ourselves into the breach again” but the complete lack of gratitude combined with the occasional outright backstabbing of France is getting old and I am beginning to wonder if the effort is worth it. I think we might want to consider a state by state examination of who we aid and who we leave to the wolves. When Russia implodes or strikes out, when the Bosnia, Kosovo situation unravels I think we may want to consider sitting the next one out. Europe has recovered from the last great war, they are capable of handling their own defense, it’s time we let them handle their own problems. If they want to use the failed U.N. system let them. When it fails, as usual, then they will be forced to examine their choices rather then bitch at us.

May 4, 2006 - 10:41 am 43. Clive Davis:

I hope Roger doesn’t mind if I gatecrash his blog for a few seconds, but I’d like to reply to the comments people have made here.

I’m probably wasting my breath by saying this, but it’s pointless, if therapuetic, to rant about “Europeans” and all their sins. The fact is that many of the British – who are supposed to be your closest allies – are totally bemused by the Bush administration’s policies. Roger and Austin Bay both agree with me that America’s PR is hopeless. Doesn’t that register with anyone here? Of course, better PR won’t fix everything – as I keep saying, there is a problem with deep-seated media bias over here. But I think it’s a bit pathetic not to try to address what is, in the end, a simple failure of communication. The British and the rest of the Europeans can make a bigger effort too, as Max Hastings says in today’s Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1766895,00.html

May 4, 2006 - 10:46 am 44. Steven Mitchell:

“But I think it’s a bit pathetic not to try to address what is, in the end, a simple failure of communication.”

If it were a simple failure of communication, there might be something to that idea. Since it is considerably more that, I think it is the usual management-type cop out when ignorning difficulty. (For example, consider that particular European arrogance that pretends to humility when discussing “cowboys”, and that willful ignorance when discussing “simple Americans”.)

I think the Europeans would respect us more if we stopped pretending to care whether they like us or not. Well, we could clean out the State Department so that American foreign policy was what the administration said it was, instead of what the mandarins want it to be. That would help with the respect, if not the liking. The inconsistency has to be maddening to outsiders.

At the end of the day, the American *people* do not agree with the European leadership. Depending on elections, there are times when folks can ignore this simple fact. This happens to be one of the times when it’s harder to ignore. So people blame bad Bush PR.

May 4, 2006 - 11:39 am 45. Kevin Peters:

Mr. Davis:
I have no argument about the problems with Bush’s P.R. No one will ever call him the great communicator, or even the average one. But isn’t it absurd to say, “well, we would change our idea’s if the P.R. effort was slicker.” I think we are talking about philosophies and attitudes. P.M. Blair can debate, spin, and speak with eloquence about many of the same ideas that President Bush struggles with and yet he is called Bush’s poodle and those issues with wich he shares common ground with Bush are not unpopular because of Bush’s diction. Reagan, the great communicator, was despised all over Europe for his “moronic cowboy” ways. Remember the street protests over Reagans response to the Soviets introduction of nukes into the Warsaw Pact.Suprise, he was a war monger too. President Bush should be upbraided for clumsy communication but that is not the reason for rising anti-americanism in europe. It’s just an excuse for their true feelings coming out.Iran isn’t going to get nukes because President Bush included them in the axis of evil. They were working on the program before Bush got into office, and even if President Bush was Martin Sheen Europe would continue with the huff and puff but in the end we will let you have nukes if you want them approach. Europe isn’t going to say, “Oh, now that your speech’s are better and Snow is such a great press secretary we are ready to rethink our principles.”

May 4, 2006 - 2:24 pm 46. Sandy P:

Mr. Hasting hit the nail on the head, Mr. Davis, Europe is our past, not our future.

…Because we are Europeans, we can aspire only to enlighten others about our own patch, but that would be a start. A recent British chief of defence staff said: “A decade or two ago, when I went to Washington I knew all the top American generals, because they had served in Europe and were interested in us. Today, that is no longer true. Most have not served here, and are preoccupied with the Middle East and Asia….”

—

IMHO Europe wants Iran or anyone else to have nukes because we have always been and will always be the enemy.

Of course, Britain siding w/Europe instead of America on defense issues doesn’t help. Your DOD threw your lot in w/frankenreich in 2000 – before W, according to info from EU Referendum.

May 4, 2006 - 3:50 pm 47. Barry Dauphin:

First off, thanks Mr. Davis for reading what some of us lowly (perhaps pathetic) Yanks think, for taking the time to make some comments, and for having consideration for what has been posted.

What exactly would you like the Bush administration to do by way of a PR change? Could you be more constructive in the criticism, so that we can advance the discussion a bit further? I believe that the Administration could do a better job conveying its messages, but I think there is infinitely more to the American-Europe gap than you are considering, from what I understand so far.

The Oil-for-Food (Palaces) program has revealed an enormous level of corruption among many Europeans. How exactly is that story playing in Europe? Is it a scandal? Is it even noticed? Is this not a more comfortable way of doing business for Eureopean Governments in dealing with dictators?

I think you are not considering strongly enough that we are dealing with fundamentally different philosophies in the post 9/11 world. At this point the US desires to drain the swamp. This is not comfortable policy in the US, whose citizens have historically preferred isolation (much to the chagrin of many Europeans before 12/8/1941). From this side of the pond, it appears to many of us that the Euros desire appeasement (just consider the Danish cartoon situation for a small indication). The difference in policy is a like a pig, and we can put all the lipstick you want on it, it is still going to be a pig.

For example, we were concerned and shocked about Abu Ghraib, but we also all understand what happens in the French prison system on a regular basis. But what exactly is going to be the big story in France? I am not simply complaining about the Europeans, but this is the only way to illustate what are large philospohical differences about issues that many consider to be life/death.

I also suggest we are communicating and addressing the issues, notwithstanding your comment. I perceive that you don’t like our communication and wish we simply agreed with your position. I think the commenters on this blog are generally serious folks who take these issues to heart. But, if you’ll pardon my American bluntness, I think your communication was an illustration of what many are saying. You said it is pathetic not to address what is a simple failure of communication. But it is not a simple failure of coummunication. Whatever communication problems the Administration needs to fix, these pale in comparison to the policy gulf between Europe and the US. Reagan was the “great communicator”, but Europe went ka-blooey when we put cruise missiles into Europe (but you ought to be glad we did). Arguing too much about the “communication” problems of the Bush Adminstration is not as productive a use of time as understanding the fact that the Atlantic is back to being an ocean (metaphorically speaking) between the US and Europe and no longer a pond.

I agree with Roger’s response to my comment, in that the PR aspect is part of the war. Surely it is, and the Adminstration should be at the highest levels in all aspects of the war, and we should expect that and tell them when they don’t live up to that.However, I do not think the PR aspect should be solely the responsibility of the Administration, if we really believe that it is countries that go to war.

May 4, 2006 - 5:30 pm 48. Kevin Peters:

Mr. Davis:
I would like to echo Mr. Dauphin’s comments and thank you for responding. And thanks to Barry for showing me a fine example of the difference between a formless rant and a well written argument.

May 4, 2006 - 6:50 pm 49. Etain Peregrine:

I appreciate Mr. Davis’ thoughts and concern, but I am amazed at how oblivious many Europeans are to how badly damaged the Euro-American relationship truly is. If you think the comments on this thread are bad, you would be horrified to find out what your average boorish ignorant provincial American thinks of Europeans these days.

The tipping point for me personally was the European reaction during the Asian Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina. The sheer level of venom directed at the US for supposedly not giving enough during the tsunami shocked me, as did the astoundingly relucant ‘aid’ Europeans gave us when we were dealing with Katrina. I am not rich; I had to sacrifice considerably to give the small amount I did to the Tsunami victims but I did it. And it felt like all of Europe spit on me for my trouble.

I will never think of Europeans the same way again. It will take years of work from both sides to repair this relationship… I doubt we will ever return to the closeness we once had. Then again, that was largely illusory. Americans simply used to be ignorant of how much Europeans hated us.

May 4, 2006 - 7:46 pm 50. Bruce Badger:

Mr. Davis said:
“…(T)he British – who are supposed to be your closest allies…”

And herein lies some of the bitter disappointment expressed above. Because that’s what we thought too! I return to my earlier comment, echoed by some other commenters, we read your papers, we hear your speeches. We are more aware than ever before of European attitudes.

What were the opinion polls showing before the invasion of Iraq? Was not the public wildly opposed to any support of “Bush’s war”? Were your streets, like those in France and Germany, not full of the very ugliest types of Anti-American protesters?

In spite of my many differences with him, your Prime minister has moved me to tears on more than one occasion with his eloquent arguments in support of the rightness, and righteousness, of the war on terror. I’ve turned to my wife and said, “How I wish our President had his gift with words.” Have his speeches resulted in a sudden outpouring of support for our cause? Not hardly.

So your impassioned plea for better communication falls on if not deaf, then at least tired, ears. When our very best, and indeed your prime minister’s very best, efforts are received with a willful ignorance, a studied refusal to entertain any world view but that of America the rogue giant – we get damned tired of making the futile effort. Willful spoiled children are not worth arguing with. Adults must do the adult thing, in spite of the temper tantrums.

May 4, 2006 - 8:27 pm 51. Clive Davis:

I’m sorry I don’t have time to reply to all those points. If you ask me where Americans can start to improve relations, it has to be with communication. I know I’m repeating myself yet again, but I can’t stress how clumsy the Bush team’s efforts are. I find this odd, because I think he has an excellent team of speechwriters. But as far as Europe is concerned, his people don’t even begin to take the job seriously.

As regards the UK, I’ve always thought the US drastically over-estimated the degree of public support for the War on Terror.
All the emphasis on the ceremonials at Buckingham Palace etc gave Americans a misleading impression about the mood of this country. Maybe my own experience is misleading, but I’m astonished at the number of times this comes up in coversation with middle of the road Brits. I hate to use the K-word yet again, but the way the Kyoto decision was handled was catastrophic. Bush was probably right to pull out of the treaty, but to outsiders it looked as if he only cared about American jobs, not the future of the planet. OK, Bill Clinton would have made pious noises which would have been meaningless. But sometimes that’s what diplomacy is about.)

Obviously, none of this excuses the kind of anti-Americanism that’s rampant in media circles and elsewhere. You’re right to be irritated about that. But the mistakes do make things even worse than they need to be.

My other piece of advice is for conservatives to stop making such sweeping generalizations about “Europeans”. Europe isn’t a state, however much Jacques Chirac wishes it were. Yes, there were thousands of anti-war demonstrators on the streets in 2003, but there almost as many parading through US cities, weren’t there? The “death spiral” rhetoric is just reassuring mood music, as far as I’m concerned. In my experience, there are certain areas where the quality of life and expertise is higher in EU countries, and other major areas (Silicon Valley’s the obvious one) where the opposite is true. Simple as that. I’d be really wary of making long-term forecasts about where we’re all heading.

Lastly, I’d recommend reading this article on anti-Europeanism by Timothy Garton Ash. He hates anti-Americanism, but in this case he’s more interested in anti-Europeanism:

http://www.hooverdigest.org/032/ash2.html

May 5, 2006 - 11:01 am 52. Sandy P:

Dear Mr. Davis, perhaps you’d like to respond to this via Instapundit.

Again, it’s not about communication.

— Refusing to sign up to Kyoto is the classic example: the right decision, as far as I can see, but incredibly mishandled by the Bush team.–

He could have explained it from here to eternity, but the world wouldn’t understand. It wasn’t up to W. One has to understand how we’re set up. The answer is in Article II. Section 2:

Section. 2.

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

————–

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008539.php

I’m posting the above link at your site for comment.

May 5, 2006 - 12:55 pm 53. Sandy P:

Wow, American stockholders own part of Dresden, via Bros. Judd:

Yet he is that after a fashion. Mr. Rossberg reached a deal in March to sell Dresden’s entire stock of 48,000 city-owned apartments to an American private equity firm, the Fortress Investment Group, for $1.2 billion. In a single stroke, Dresden wiped out its burdensome public debt.

–

You really want the deer-in-the-headlights look from someone ranting about our debt?

Just ask them do they include the assets we own outside the country when they’re making that statement?

May 5, 2006 - 1:34 pm 54. Kevin Peters:

Mr. Davis:
I don’t expect a reply, you have already been gracious enough to take time out of your schedule. But I think Kyoto is the worst possible example to use for flawed P.R. kyoto has achieved an almost religous doctrine feeling among it’s supporters on both sides of the pond. You can’t be against it and be considered a memmber of modernity anymore then a Catholic can’t reject the Trinity. I would like to hear the argument President Bush could have made that would have made Kyoto supporters go, “Um, I disagree but that was an especially good argument, I’ve changed my mind, President Bush isn’t a slave of big oil who wants to rape the earth.

I agree that many pols who are slicker have found ways to support it and then ignore the fact that they are not even come close to meeting the guidlines and that realize that with China and India considered developing countries the treaty was flawed from the start but that isn’t diplomacy, that is plain B.S. If President Bush had implemented kyoto it would have been an economic dissaster, jobs would have been destroyed. Oh, those selfish Americans, they are being pissy about a massive recesion, how selfish.

May 5, 2006 - 4:08 pm 55. Etain Peregrine:

NO ONE is living up to Kyoto. We knew we wouldn’t, said so, and refused to sign. How much worse all those countries that knew they wouldn’t, but said they would, then signed knowing it was all a lie.

May 5, 2006 - 7:00 pm 56. Barry Dauphin:

NO ONE is living up to Kyoto. We knew we wouldn’t, said so, and refused to sign. How much worse all those countries that knew they wouldn’t, but said they would, then signed knowing it was all a lie.

And apparently lying is the definition of good PR or a competent communications strategy according to some folks in Europe.

May 5, 2006 - 7:12 pm 57. HA:

Clive (if I may call you that),

The “death spiral” rhetoric is just reassuring mood music, as far as I’m concerned.

I can assure you that the “death spiral” rhetoric is not even remotely reassuring. There is nothing I would welcome more than a culturally confident Europe united with America in defense of Western Civilization against resurgent Islamic imperialism.

But that is not the situation we face.

I would describe the situation for you, but there is no need since Joe Katzman over at Winds of Change has done it already, and done it better than I would:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008539.php

May 6, 2006 - 4:02 am

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