63 Comments

1. Terrye:

Roger:

I feel bad for those folks as well and I was impressed with the Cedar Revolution too. But it takes more than a few demonstrations and an election to make a democratic government. I hoped when Syrian troops left Lebanon that perhaps the Lebanese would be able to take back control from Hezbellah, but no such luck. The Israelis pulled out of there years ago and would probably gone on ignoring the Lebanon, even with Hezbellah in the government and on the border…but once Hezbellah took the soldiers that put the Lebanese government in the position of responsibility. Goes with the territory.

Jul 17, 2006 - 4:21 pm 2. ElMondo:

Roger? I’m sort of treading lightly here because this may be touching an open wound - and if it does, feel free to delete this comment. I honestly don’t want to instigate any ugliness. But did you see Lebanon.Profile’s response in Michael Totten’s post? He’s a touch unhappy with what folks wrote, you included.

Now, I’m not saying I disagree with either you or him. You both made points to think about. I’m actually hoping that two fine minds whom I like reading come to some peace and accomodation at some point. But I have no idea if you saw his response or not, which is why I’m writing.

Jul 17, 2006 - 4:28 pm 3. mareseydoats:

I read your post with interest because it is so true that light-hearted commitments do not make a democratic government… they create a headline, sure, but the foundations are not there. Chickens definitely come home to roost and while I am not terrified watching Lebanon cope, Dearborn Michigan is less than 100 miles away and has hundreds of thousands of Muslims who are…Muslims. For the most part they do not denounce jihad except to point out where it is justified. They tend to reject assimilation. They also (in shockingly large percentages) are inclined to believe 9/11 was a US government plot. To the best of anyone’s knowledge they are decent citizens… except for that little jihad thing, that little “America is Satan” thing. But hey, peace is where you find it, right? Why pick a fight?

Are islamists the problem, or is it Islam per se? Is it OK for the city of Sterling Heights to be sued because they drafted an ordinance requiring public signs to be written in English (rather than Arabic)? Is CAIR a civil rights group or an arm of Iran, thrice removed? Is it OK for the US to continue to rubber stamp Saudi visas into the US… especially honoring an exepmtion for religious applications? Is it OK for the US Senate to approve 1/5 of a Mexican border fence then vote not to fund it? Is it OK for American citizens to be attacked, kidnapped, and dragged back across the Mexican border under cover of automatic weapons fire, where the US sherrif has only the standard shotgun and SWAT setup?

There are so many serious security issues our polity is desperately trying NOT to address. Our will to defend ourselves is waivering and there are many who seek to eliminate it altogether. How the left decided that Islamists were worthy compatriots is beyond me. Nazis killed Jews and communists alike. But then, the communists also seemed to enjoy exterminating Jews. Perhaps the left is simply returning to its roots?

I think Americans should speak very softly about Lebanon, lest, not too many years in the future, Lebanese survivors obtain the penultimate pleasure of seeing us hoist by the same petard that looks so threadbare in Beirut.

People in glass houses, and all that.

Jul 17, 2006 - 4:35 pm 4. Buddy Larsen:

That’s about as sad a thing as I’ve read lately. I think everyone knows the score, though. Somebody has to stop the monsters, and, learning to live with them just transferred the killing over the border. Now it has come back. Granted USA should never have backed away from the 80s challenges–but truth be known, Lebanon was hosting these killers even then. What is the rest of the world supposed to do?

Jul 17, 2006 - 4:54 pm 5. RogerA:

It is worth contemplating a bit of History–Thanks to Buddy Larsen for reminding me of our preciptious withdrawal from Lebanon in 1980 and its aftermath (al queda and jihad). And 1980 was preceded by the late 1930s in Ethopia, Manchuria, and the Rhineland et al. These to me are the demonstrable facts of history. We clearly do not learn these lessons–we chant the mantras of “stopping the cycle of violence,” and “give peace a chance,” as if our (and Israel’s) enemies comprehend those concepts.

Lebanon is not a genuinely soverign state–they sold their birthright to hezbollah and its sponsors. Only they can fix the problem, and they dont have it in them as near as I can see.

Compare Lebanese governmental statements with Olmert’s stirring speech in the Knesset today: if leaders ever reflected their nations, this was the day.

Jul 17, 2006 - 5:24 pm 6. JeremyR:

I’ve seen a lot of people saying “See, Democracy failed, it didn’t stop a war”, but voting isn’t the most important part of a democracy, accountability is.

The people of Lebanon elected a government that at best ignored Hezbollah (and at worst, collarborated). Now they are paying the price for that. Next time they vote, they will know not to vote for another government like that again - but to vote for one that will get rid of Hezbollah.

Jul 17, 2006 - 5:42 pm 7. Buddy Larsen:

The problem is, you run on that platform, you end up like a Palestinian moderate–hanging upside down from a lamppost with your throat cut, or blown to pieces in your car.

Jul 17, 2006 - 5:47 pm 8. Buddy Larsen:

Democracy wouldn’t last long here in the USA if the RNC and the DNC were winking and nodding to their constituents as they murdered the opposing candidates.

Jul 17, 2006 - 5:50 pm 9. Buddy Larsen:

If we has a real UN, it would declare Lebanon a “protectorate” and put some fighting power under a large, mean army of Blue Helmets.

Jul 17, 2006 - 5:53 pm 10. chuck:

“See, Democracy failed, it didn’t stop a war”

Somewhere in the Federalist Papers there is an essay on the proposition that democracies don’t start wars. IIRC the conclusion is quickly reached that this is nonsense, along with a quote to the effect that neighbors are naturally enemies. I don’t recall how the essay goes after that, although I assume it treats with what is required to keep the peace. Anyway, I think the idea that democracy by itself stops war is bunk. Certainly the history of Athens and Republican Rome would indicate otherwise. Maybe I should hunt down the essay (Hamilton?) and see what the proposed solution was.

Jul 17, 2006 - 6:04 pm 11. Josh:

One day a scorpion arrived at the bank of a river he wanted to cross, but there was no bridge. He asked a frog that was sitting nearby if he would take him across the river on his back. The frog refused and said, “I will not, because you will sting me.”

The scorpion replied, “It would be foolish for me to sting you because then we would both drown.”

The frog saw the logic in the scorpion’s words, and agreed to carry the the scorpion across. But when they were halfway across the river the scorpion stung the frog. The stunned frog asked, “Why did you sting me? Now we will both die!”

The scorpion replied, “Because I’m a scorpion… and that’s what scorpions do.”

–

This is something I posted at Totten’s site the other day because it really captures for me the essence of the Lebanese failure. It still does.

Yet despite fully supporting the actions of the Israelis right now and worrying about my friends and family in Haifa and beyond, I can’t help but to feel truly sorry for the likes of Lebanon.Profile. I think they genuinely believed that they could neutralize Hezbollah by integrating it into government and society. As recent comments indicating among other things that if only Israel had targeted “Hezbollaland” alone the Lebanese people and army would have risen up to help the Israelis destroy it once and for all show, we’re probably dealing with more delusion than dissolution… :-/

Jul 17, 2006 - 6:04 pm 12. Josh:

In my last sentence above, I meant to say “disillusion”, not “dissolution”. Damnit, I can’t even get my own cliches right…

Jul 17, 2006 - 6:06 pm 13. David M. McClory:

Yes Lebanon, finish the job—-one man one vote. Then the Shi’ah will not need a Hizb Allah. In the meantime, I am hoping that Israel has begun a process by which the Lebanese can put an end to all militias.

Jul 17, 2006 - 6:20 pm 14. Buddy Larsen:

I think Lebanon is like we would be if Hezbollah ran the Pentagon, on orders from Iran. Whatever Congress or the White House might have to say wouldn’t do anything much but maybe get some congressmen, or worse, killed. The prospect of ‘evolving’ Hezbollah into impotence would seen very daunting. We’d probably need help.

Jul 17, 2006 - 6:45 pm 15. Luther McLeod:

Good post Roger. You are best when you get pissed off. By that, I mean, when you write as if you you do not care…

I am old enough to remember the Lebanon of the 60’s and early 70’s, an oasis among madness. Until it was overtaken by islamic nihilism.

All here have hit upon the issue “Responsibility.”

I will sound like an ass, perhaps, but it all comes down to blood in the boots. Do they want freedom or do they want sharia. The line is now deeply drawn and stark.

Jul 17, 2006 - 7:31 pm 16. Buddy Larsen:

Beirut was called the “Paris of the Orient” before it fell into the cold war. I’ve read (need to learn more, I know) that USSR was the motivating power behind the civil war which wrecked the city and left it in the hands of the jihad.

Jul 17, 2006 - 7:50 pm 17. Buddy Larsen:

Roger, the Treppenwitz piece is very strong–thanks for the link.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:00 pm 18. MaDr:

I’ve also followed the Lebanese blogs and have been quite amazed to see how fast, so many have degenerated into “helpless victimhood” and blaming any but themselves. Make no mistake, they’re still infinitely more rational than their Palestinian (or most other ME blogs). Not just Israel, but the USA gets blames - not their impotent government, only occasionally HA, but never themselves and the Lebanese citizenry.

I’ve commented on some of these blogs. On one I told them that America loves underdogs. But the ones we love are scrappers, fighters - fighting for the right things, on the right side. People not willing to make at least a symbolic attack on the “Bastille” - sad, very sad.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:17 pm 19. Luther McLeod:

“USSR was the motivating power”

That is the nugget, perhaps. We are fighting the ‘long’ war after all. I mean, just count our supporter’s. Then count the rest. We are vastly out numbered, even surrounded. An ideal situation for a Marine. Fuck ‘em all, save six for pallbearer’s.

Attribute to N. Mailer, I hate to admit.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:29 pm 20. Luther McLeod:

“Fuck ‘em all, save six for pallbearer’s.”

I overlooked the quote’s. Sorry.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:36 pm 21. Buddy Larsen:

Mailer, it’d be “fug” I think–at least it was back when I read him, like, 200 years ago.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:46 pm 22. Luther McLeod:

You are correct Buddy. I’m mixing censorship dates. Though, entirely from memory, naked and the dead was… groundbreaking! Damn I’m getting old.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:53 pm 23. Luther McLeod:

And, as an aside, I am surprised at the lack of comments on this thread. I was looking forward to a rip roaring….

Hope my pedestrian comments were not the thread killer.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:56 pm 24. Skookumchuk:

They didn’t. They had a drastically unfinished one on which they had punked out in big ways.

Excellent, Roger. It will be interesting to see which of these revolutions can be finished by their citizens and which will simply be abandoned. Currently, as in Iraq, much does depend on American support, but at some point there must be a native willingness to confront the beast.

This as much as anything will determine the American approach to Islamofascism for the rest of this century.

Jul 17, 2006 - 8:59 pm 25. dougf:

“Roger? I’m sort of treading lightly here because this may be touching an open wound - and if it does, feel free to delete this comment. I honestly don’t want to instigate any ugliness. But did you see Lebanon.Profile’s response in Michael Totten’s post? He’s a touch unhappy with what folks wrote, you included.” elmondo

Yeah, I was part of that virtual pile up at Mr. Tottens site. Lebanon Profile made some valid points, but the underlying reality of his posting was:
A. It’s not our fault because we don’t control Hezbollah.
B. We have all ’suggested’ that Hezbollah not be so ‘unilateral’, and start to ‘behave’ better.
C.We fought to get the Syrians out. That’s it for us. What more do you people expect.

Lebanon is or is not a STATE. If it is it must assume responsibility for the actors in that State. If it is not then it should say that it cannot and will not control anything. The bottom line is that LP’s position ends up at the point where it’s OK for Israelis to die, but it’s not OK for Israelis to respond to the direct threat because he is not responsible.

Roger is 100% correct in this posting. Lebanon is a victim here. but not really an ‘innocent’ victim. I have regretfully come to believe that there is something really wrong with Arab Thinking. It appears almost reasonable, right up to the point where it simply goes completely off the rails in a fit of “irresponsibility and denial.”

Each and every time.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:03 pm 26. Kevin Peters:

Roger:

This is a tradegy but as much as I pity the non-Hezbollah Lebanese they can’t expect Israel to let Hezbollah use their country as a staging base for the proxy war that Iran and Syria want to wage and come out of it unscathed. I went to some of the Lebanese blogs that Truthlaidbear had and read an old post from a year ago. It was titled Rockets and Responsibility(or something similar) and it comp[lained about the Hezbollah “yobs” and it mentioned the 12,000 rockets that Hezbollah had. The moderate Lebanese knew that Hezbollah was ramping up it’s arsenal and they had to know that it was intended for Israel. It’s like renting a room in your house to a drug addict and then being suprised when one of your kids gets loaded.
Israel is pulling back from those occupied lands, first Lebanon, then Gaza, someday the West Bank. They have tried for decades to negotiate and they have shown, as they did with Eygpt, that it will trade land for peace. But they will not allow the death by a thousand cuts strategy of a rocket here, a suicide bomber there that Hamas, Hezbollah and their Iranian and Syrian puppetmasters want to inflict on Israel.
The Cedar Revolution was beautiful but incomplete. I know they were between a rock and a hard place but that being said they can’t expect Israel to sit back and allow Hezbollah to operate freely in southern Lebanon and do nothing. The era of having private militias operate without consequences to the governments that host them is over. The Taliban hosted Al Queda and it was wiped out. Israel is telling the middle east that if you want Hamas and Hezbolah in your backyard you are going to suffer if they attack Israel. “Don’t touch us, it’s those crazy militants that we can’t control” is no longer an excuse. It is ugly, it is sad, and no doubt many of the victims in Lebanon want nothing to do with Hezbolah. But if they are in your government or you allow them to roam free in your country you are going to suffer the sad and brutal consequences.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:04 pm 27. Buddy Larsen:

Nah, Luther–it’s just a very sober time I think. Dougf, I get the same feeling, listening to those guys. I can’t help thing of the Martian leader’s speech in “Mars Attacks!”–the speech the president put thru the translating device, and only bits and pieces of it came out. I just found it on the net, and it sounds just like that Hezbollah leader on tv yesterday–the translator was dragging there, too. The Martian said

“ALL GREEN OF SKIN…(skip)
800 CENTURIES AGO…(skip)
THEIR BODILY FLUIDS INCLUDE THE BIRTH OF HALF-BREEDS…(skip)
FOR THE FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH IS SELF-DETERMINATION OF THE COSMOS…(skip)
FOR DARK IS THE SUEDE…(skip)
THAT MOWS LIKE A HARVEST…”

And the president’s cabinet had the same look on their faces as I had on mine, listening to it. It’s the look of “Oh, My, oh, my, my, my!”

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:15 pm 28. Stephen_M:

Quite an apt link Roger.
Though in my experience Starbucks revolutionaries and far too many wordsmiths are not capable of putting words to one of their best uses - learning from the mistakes others have made.

Perhaps Lebanon, LebanonProfile & Totten will mature.
Until such time it is foolish to ignore the deficiency.
They are just plain dangerous.
To themselves and to the unwary around them.

If LebanonProfile really has fled to Syria I hope he survives the trip.
And the arrival.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:34 pm 29. Buddy Larsen:

On the good news front, Hillary led a very strong pro-Israel rally today–the thrust was “Israel is fighting this war, and we’re behind her”. Not a word about “disproportionate”. Frank Lautenburg was featured on the Fox report, too, sounding emotional and strong on the issue. As an aside, Kean has pulled ahead of Menendez in a 60% Dem state. This bodes well for the (*shhhh*) “neocons” and their pro-Israel stance.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:40 pm 30. dougf:

Buddy, you crack me up. I am feeling more and more like Kirk every day —-

Scottie BEAM ME UP !!!

Before I blot my copybook here as well, however, I admire Mr Totten. I wish I had his ‘gumption’.
I just happen to not agree with his particular postioning on this one particular issue. I understand it; I just don’t agree with it.

That’s what makes horseraces, so I’m told.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:43 pm 31. Kevin Peters:

Roger:
Way off topic but I had to get this off my chest. I caught Paula Zahn interviewing an Israeli official and she was giving him the “but innocent people are dying” guilt trip. And all during his answer she showed video of a Lebanese baby being treated in a hospital. Whats next? The scourging scene from “The Passion of Christ”? She should just drop the pretense of covering this story in an evenhanded manner and come out and call Israel babykillers, that is what they tried to do with the video montage placed over his answer.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:45 pm 32. chuck:

And, as an aside, I am surprised at the lack of comments on this thread.

We’re all waiting for the other shoe to drop, if I may coin a phrase. Meanwhile we just pass the time with a bit of chit-chat. No one really knows the plan or the schedule, but we all know there is something coming down. The future is immanent, a known unknown as it were.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:47 pm 33. dougf:

Meanwhile we just pass the time with a bit of chit-chat.– Chuck

Speaking of that , I fear that Kevin has only himself to blame for watching CNN. Sounds faintly masochistic to me, but I don’t want to appear judgemental.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:52 pm 34. Ari Tai:

re: poor Lebanon.

They always have had options. They agreed to disarm the Hez as part of the earlier withdrawal yet did not. They could have made an alliance with Turkey or Italy (or even asked the U.S.) to provide the muscle to get it done. Or tried themselves and if/when they failed, watched their government fall and the people rise up again, to likely be put down by a violent Hez response. Which would have led to all this playing out earlier with the average Lebanese clearly on the side of civilization (and now with many more friends than neutrals or enemies).

All of which would have led them to a better place today vice sitting on their hands and pretending that they were / are not responsible.

It’s not fair (life is not fair) but this is what character is all about. I know a number of Lebanese and they are better (and deserve better) than this. I hope we find out someday that the Lebanese were full partners in the war and actually provided more targeting information on the Hez than the IDF was able to act on.

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:56 pm 35. Buddy Larsen:

Allan Colmes did the same Paula Zahn thing to Bebe Netanyahu on the Hannity & Colmes show tonight. The line was more or less, how dare you Israelis mess up that nice, comfortable, familiar, ‘cycle of violence’?

Jul 17, 2006 - 9:59 pm 36. Patrick Tyson:

chuck,

The conclusion of The Federalist No. 6:

So far is the general sense of mankind from corresponding with the tenets of those who endeavor to lull asleep our apprehensions of discord and hostility between the States, in the event of disunion, that it has from long observation of the progress of society become a sort of axiom in politics, that vicinity or nearness of situation, constitutes nations natural enemies. An intelligent writer expresses himself on this subject to this effect: “NEIGHBORING NATIONS (says he) are naturally enemies of each other unless their common weakness forces them to league in a CONFEDERATE REPUBLIC, and their constitution prevents the differences that neighborhood occasions, extinguishing that secret jealousy which disposes all states to aggrandize themselves at the expense of their neighbors.”(1) This passage, at the same time, points out the EVIL and suggests the REMEDY.

(1) Vide “Principes des Negociations” par 1′Abbe de Mably.

Plubius, in this No., was Alexander Hamilton.

Jul 17, 2006 - 10:23 pm 37. Kevin Peters:

doug:
Know thy enemies ways so you know how to dodge their…. well I don’t want to be rude.

Jul 17, 2006 - 10:39 pm 38. Ari Tai:

re: Michael Totten’s neighbors

Are distressed to find bombs falling in presumed anti-hez areas.

It’ll take a while, but I suspect no house or structure was hit without some intelligence and confirmation of a significant target or resource of use to the Hez. Granted, there will be errors but not as many as Michael reports, especially since the IAF fighter-bombers were unopposed, not even harassed from the ground.

What he and his neighbors will likely be surprised by is just how many of the terrorists and their facilities, supplies, political enablers, financiers, etc. that they had permitted (even in ignorance) nearby, to say nothing of allowing their use of their country’s infrastructure. If the IDF could figure it out, they could have as well (and done something about it, or died trying).

Jul 17, 2006 - 11:20 pm 39. Bruce Wechsler:

Several short weeks ago, I was following the comment strings (on JPost) on Israel’s limited incursions and responses into Gaza, noting that many accused Olmert and his government of too light handed an approach.

Wonder what they’re thinking now!

I am glad to see the Israel of legend back in the saddle. Bibi said earlier today that despite the Lebanese leader’s public condemnation of Israel’s actions, he is likely grateful for it.

Once again, Israel takes on the necessary fight that no one else wants to.

Kol HaKavod (all the respect) to that tough smart little nation—very much like the diminutive sailor in the Treppenwitz link.

Jul 17, 2006 - 11:33 pm 40. Gary Rosen:

One observation about Israel’s attacks on Lebanon’s infrastructure that seem to “unfairly” target non-Hizbullah Lebanese: most of them have been on transportation arteries - airports, roads (to Syria, hint hint) etc. I suspect the purpose is to make sure that Hizbullah cannot accumulate any more rockets that can reach Israel. Then if they don’t capitulate, they will simply run out. That could take a while, depending on how many Israel can destroy in the meantime.

Jul 18, 2006 - 12:39 am 41. mikem:

Is there a reason why Israel does not go after the Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon directly, other than that it is easier to attack undefended cities like Beirut?
I absolutely support Israel’s right to attack her enemies, and hopefully crush them. But Lebanese civilians are not kidnapping Israeli soldiers or lobbing missiles into Israel. Israel knows where her enemies are. She should attack them there instead of attacking Lebanese civilian populations and infrastructure.
All the “They deserve it” comments in the world from smug bloggers do not change the fact that Israel is warring against civilians who cannot kick Hezbollah and Syrian forces out. Israel is punishing the weak instead of attacking the strong. That is called cowardice among civilized people. I expected better from a nation and people who have been victims of the same conduct in the past.

Roger mentions cowardice and heroism and then has the nerve to sneer at American bloggers for, in his words, “enabling” the Lebanese bloggers who are crying in despair at watching Israel bomb civilian populations in Beirut. Such a smug dismissal of heartfelt sympathy for the Lebanese civilians is disgusting, but increasingly par for the course. I can’t fathom why Roger would allow his own hand to paint himself in such an ugly light, but there it is.

Attack Hezbollah forces, attack Syrian forces, Iranian forces, Hamas. Wipe them out and I will cheer.

Jul 18, 2006 - 12:45 am 42. Ari Tai:

re: Lebanon as (an innocent) hostage.

Some will hold a funeral for those captured or taken hostage to free themselves from an enemy’s grip and enable an appropriate response. Hostages will sometimes kill themselves rather than place their family and nation at greater risk.

Flight 93 passengers did much the same. They knew their lives were forfeit but that they could and should act to save others.

For all we know (and I do expect) some significant fraction of the Lebanese people, army and politicians are doing exactly this, calling down fire upon themselves to remove the Hez cancer and its enablers. And we’re long past being able to distinguish between the political arm of an organization and its military (IRA be damned).

Jul 18, 2006 - 1:34 am 43. David Thomson:

Life is often not fair. Israel has no choice but to pursue the terrorist thugs. Numerous Lebanese citizens may be guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Oneís neighborhood, even in the United States, could be in the middle of a shoot out between the police and criminals living in the area.

Jul 18, 2006 - 3:15 am 44. Terrye:

mikem:

I am not happy to hear that cvilians or even that Lebanese soldiers are lost in this, and i am not smug. I just know that the Lebanese made a deal with the devil and now they are paying.

Jul 18, 2006 - 3:53 am 45. HA:

Roger,

I thought I’d provide a link to the post over at Totten’s that I assume motivated your comment:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001183.html

Jul 18, 2006 - 3:58 am 46. Buddy Larsen:

Mikem, surely you don’t believe the IDF is targeting innocent civilians. Israeli leaders say they desire good relations with a peaceful Lebanon. If that is manifestly credible, then their war-fighting tactics will be the best they can derive to meet that goal. Tragedies will unfold anyway, that’s why matters ought never get to this stage. Turn your wrath toward the only side able to call it off–the jihadis.

Jul 18, 2006 - 7:07 am 47. Roger:

Some commenters are complaing of TypeKey problems (yet again… alas…). There is a little I can do about them at this time, especially given my rather ambitious Pajas responsibilities. But if you would like to email me through the contact slot your thoughts for publication here, I will try to post them.

Jamie Irons sent along this link to Austin Bay
(which Austin himself had just sent me!) which he thought all should see.

http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1307

Jul 18, 2006 - 7:40 am 48. Carl Spackler:

I am reminded of the parents who complain of their house being torn apart, door busted down, people trapping about when the Drug Task Force finally does the raid on little Johnny’s bedroom drug business. Variations are the apartment owner who complains about his door destroyed of his tenant who pays in cash, sleeps late, has no known job and drives a nice, pimped out ride. Also I am reminded of the public housing family that is given the toss for junior convicted of drug dealing.

If Lebanon is a state, then it is responsible for Hezbollah. 10,000 rockets, anti-ship missiles, cross boarder commandoes. Hezbollah are Lebanese citizens. So, embrace the suck as the grunts say.

Lastly, is it me, or is the world finally shutting down on 50 years of “the man/Jew/US being keeping me down” crap from Muslims? The Arab written UN Arab Development Report said that 20 plus Arab countries had the combined GDP of Spain. Average daily income of $1 per person. Not one world class exported manufactured good. Not one world-class university (Excluding buying Harvard/Yale). Something like only 40 books of all types translated into Arabic per year. The statistics might well be worse as about half the countries don’t even keep such numbers and the other, wealthier, inflate.

Of course every uncountable Arab village hovel, with all its misery and boredom is the result of Jew machinations of American puppets. I know this because the MSM tells me so, not in such words, but more or less.

Right.

I’m going to put some Samuel Smiths Pale Ale on ice and mow the lawn.

Jul 18, 2006 - 7:59 am 49. Steven Mitchell:

As I said in a previous thread, terrorists crossing national borders can’t work if one acknowledges the rights and responsibilities inherent in the concept of sovereignty. As dougf said:

“Lebanon is or is not a STATE. If it is it must assume responsibility for the actors in that State. If it is not then it should say that it cannot and will not control anything.”

*ALL* else follows from that, though I wouldn’t make it quite that stark. As he said elsewhere in the post, a valid state can always get help from an ally, if there is something that it can’t handle within its own borders. Ultimately, Lebanon is responsible for what happens in its borders.

Jul 18, 2006 - 8:04 am 50. Buddy Larsen:

Carl, the horror is that Islamism is setting them back away from their one window of economic/cultural opportunity. Islamism is likely to drain out alongh with the oli reserves. In fifty or a hundred years, the rest of the world will have adjusted and moved on, and Araby will be back in the mud hut, tending the goats and telling the old stories of glorious battles with the infidel. Well, maybe not the Gulf States–oddly, the very ones distancing from Hezbollah right now.

Jul 18, 2006 - 8:47 am 51. Buddy Larsen:

few poeple know of the oli reserves, or even what oli is–but I do.

Jul 18, 2006 - 8:50 am 52. Kevin Peters:

Roger:
Regarding the “heartless Roger” discussion. Roger, and others on this thread are not happy about the innocent lebanese that are suffering. The anger that is displayed on this thread is about the cynical attitude that allows openly declared calls for the destruction of Israel to hide behind the heartbreaking pictures of innocent life being destroyed. The anger is directed at the misplaced blame that allows Hamas, Hezbollah and their Islamofascist masters in Iran and Syria to start the war, use Lebanon and it’s people as human shields and then point to the deaths of their human shields and cry “Look at the innocents that Israel has killed.”

If I start firing at a cop I should not be suprised if he fires back. If I grab my grandmother to hide behind and continue to fire I can’t be mad at the cop if he kills my grandmother. And if I promise to grab every other member of my family to hide behind while I continue to shoot until I am killed it is my fault if any more of my family members die.

From 1948 to 1973 there was one common goal in the middle east. War on Israel until it is eliminated.Since then the war has continued but instead of traditional war the use of private militias and “non-official” armies has been used. Israel has made mistakes and the expansion policies were a major error. Israel shares some responsibility.
Israel has shown that it will trade land for peace. It gave up the Sinai for peace with Egypt. It left Lebanon and allowed Lebanon to “handle” Hezbollah. It left Gaza and was ,and is, making plans to leave the West Bank. Yet the attacks on Israel have not stopped. Why? Because there is a large and powerful force in the ME that has no intention of giving up on the goal of the destruction of Israel. It is in their charters, it is in their school books, it is in their public statements.

This awful battle was started by Hezzbollah. Iran needed international attention directed away from their nuclear program and Syria wants control of Lebanon back. “oh, Israel overreacted, it’s only two soldiers.” Israel knows that if it had been patient, if it had stood back and “took it”, Hezbollah would have continued the shelling, continued the incursions until they did react. There have been at least 800 rockets fired into Israel since they left Gaza. The border incursion by Hezbollah was simply the last straw.

This would not have happened if Hez. had not started this war. The moment the shelling stops and the soldiers are returned it will stop. Israel, as imperfect as she is at times, was moving towards peace and the end of occupation. And that was the last thing that the IslamoFascists want because they want Israel destroyed and you need war to do that. Israel refuses to be the rocket pin cushion for these radical groups to release their frustration s on. If your government, or your “militants”, that cynical phrase that allows sovereign governments to conduct war and then duck responbility, continue to bomb Israel there will be reprecussions. But the end of the Human Shield war must stop now and tragically that means innocents will die.

Jul 18, 2006 - 9:51 am 53. Coisty:

Lebanon is too divided for its government to be able to crack down on Hezbollah. The Shias are something like 40% of the population these days and so taking on Hezbollah means a new civil war. States that do not have an ethnic hegemon are almost always weak and vulnerable.

Ironically things were probably better for Israel when Syria was in charge. Damascus may still have leverage but not as much as did before the so-called Cedar Revolution. Thanks to democratisation and the Syrian withdrawal Hezbollah can now do what its people want it to do: attack Israel more often. When occupying Lebanon the Syrians had to restrain Hezbollah as Damascus would’ve been the first Israeli target if Hezbollah had kidnapped two Israeli soldiers back then.

Jul 18, 2006 - 9:52 am 54. Steven Mitchell:

Kevin, to continue your analogy with the cop: It would be fairly surprising that if enough crazy people fired at cops while hiding behind grandmothers if the cops never made a mistake. When people focus too much on cop mistakes in a bad situation, they enable the people hiding behind grandmothers.

Coisty,

“Ironically things were probably better for Israel when Syria was in charge.”

Short term, maybe. Depends on whether you count relatively low-grade but persistent terrorism better than the violence that accompanies lancing the boil. Ultimately, when allowed to drag out, people start focusing on mistakes by the cops. See above.

Jul 18, 2006 - 9:59 am 55. Carl Spackler:

Coisty

The Syrians actually, up to now, where doing OK. They lucked out. They dropped the high overhead and bad press of occupying Beirut/Lebanon, but kept Hezbollah, the south and kept whacking away at the Jews. Not to mention business had vastly improved with the renewal of Beirut.

Of course, I hope, the Israelis will wipe the floor with Hezbollah. Syria will do nothing and lose face, for a while. As much as the Lebanese are caterwauling, the Israelis are solving a problem for them. Hezbolla is/will be weakened, some force will become a buffer, the blind Doctor of Syrias world just got a little smaller. The EU, one by one, sees the Iranian Mullahocracy as it is. Saudi Arabia, Egypt sends crackers for comfort. President Bush isnít answering the phone. My lawnís cut and lunch is cold beer as it is too hot and muggy in New England to eat. The Red Sox have the best infield in my lifetime. I love America. Go Israel!

Jul 18, 2006 - 10:24 am 56. Buddy Larsen:

Interesting wiki on the IAF

Jul 18, 2006 - 11:28 am 57. RogerA:

An interesting piece from Reuters:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=

2006-07-18T180844Z_01_OLI848020_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-HIZBOLLAH.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

The Shiite jihadis are becoming equally a threat it appears. If we fail to recognize this conflict is substantially wider than a mid east conflict, we are indeed blind.

[split link to stop from going too wide.-roger]

Jul 18, 2006 - 12:13 pm 58. Cynic:

” The Syrians actually, up to now, where doing OK. They lucked out. They dropped the high overhead and bad press of occupying Beirut/Lebanon …”

Hezbollah is their proxy and with that they kept a tight rein on Lebanon.
One only had to see the Lebanese President on TV yesterday shouting ” Ich bin ein Hezbollah”.

Jul 18, 2006 - 12:20 pm 59. FarPastGone:

Mr. Roger,
With all do respect, I think you are fallaciously alligning the Lebanese population with that of supporting the Hezbollah (which may be the case for a large portion), but by not including in your post why they would be supportive of Hezbollah is misrepresentaion. Hezbollah is not loved in Lebanon for its ideals or views, but for its actions. Hezbollah is the same revolutionary group that in 2000 helped rid Lebanon of Israel after its 18-year occupancy (leaving the country in shambles), the same group in 2004 that was able to return home 14 Lebanese prisoners in exchange for 3 captured IDF soldiers, and the same group that has supported the community through building schools and hospitals.

Ok, so maybe Lebanon disobeyed UN resolutions and did not remove Hezbollah from its southern regions, but how could they be expected to when they were supported by at least a minority of the population (which I doubt was a minority since the Hezbollah are a Shi’ite organization, and Lebanon is 40% Shi’ite) as well as their hold on politcal seats. Sinior has publicly stated he can not under his own accord remove Hezbollah from his country.

So here is where you stop and say, “well now Israel is taking care of the job”. Israel getting involved is playing right into the Syrian supporters (although I still believe we still have leverage with Assad) and Ahmadinejad hands, and this is why they need to be cautious this is just an excuse for Iran to get involved with Israel.

It is people like you who are expecting the war-torn, weak, and now bombarded people of Lebanon to stand and fight against the armed Hezbollah and there mighty supporters. No the true cowards here are not the ones running for safety, abandoning all hope while at least trying to get the support of an already supportive global community, they are the ones killing the innocents. I am not against this operation at all, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization (maybe not with as radical a platform as Hamas), and they deserve to be planted. However Israel should never have target so many civilianized areas even if the terrorists were hiding amongst them, we are seeing signs of things going in the right direction for the first time today in my opinion as Israel finally enters Lebanon by foot.

END OF RANT

I recently found this post on a latte Lebanese blog:

“And for your information, Hizbollah, regardless of its ill feelings towards Israel, has the backing of one million shiites, not because of their ideological extremism, but because of the social and economical welfare they have provided to people who have been trapped under your occupation forces for many years, and people who had always been underdogs of the lebanese diaspora. In other words, we have a powerful armed political and ideological party that has the support of one third of the lebanese population. One whole third. Talk about presence and leverage. Any attempt of the remainder two thirds that don’t necessarily support HA or subscribe to its agenda to forcefully disarm it or abolish it from the political scene would have broken out into a civil war. And I am pretty sure you are aware of our sentiments towards internal conflicts, having just stepped out of one devastating one a decade plus ago.”

Jul 19, 2006 - 8:30 am 60. Buddy Larsen:

Farpastgone, it is all intolerably sad–killers and their supporters hold two-thirds of the Lebanese hostage against Israel, while holding Israel hostage against two-thirds of the Lebanese. I guess this is the rule-set that Israel has decided to change.

Jul 19, 2006 - 10:43 am 61. Steven Mitchell:

FarPastGone, you are leaving out a step in the logic. The argument goes something like this:

Hezbollah in Lebanon are firing rockets into Israel, et. al. Lebanon says that they are a state. Hezbollah will not change; they are irredemiable. Ergo, the government of Lebanon has the responsibility to remove Hezbollah–either on their own, or by bringing in outside help. (Both ways are compatible with sovereignity, and nothing to be ashamed of getting outside help, given all that Lebanon has been put through.) Since Lebanon did not stop the attacks, they give up the right of sovereignity in that area, and Israel can respond in whatever way that Israel thinks works best for it. As an enlightened people, the Israelis will do the best they can with Lebanon’s people as well, but not too far at their own expense.

Now, if you (or your quoted Lebanese) want to claim that Hezbollah has redemiable qualities, that’s fine. To the extent that Hezbollah builds hospitals, participates peacefully in politics, etc. that is an internal Lebanese matter. *HOWEVER*, that doesn’t change the fact the freaking Hezbollah are committing an act of war against another nation. It’s not enough to say, “well, we might co-opt them if giving enough time.” Bzzt, sorry! Time ran out on the co-opt option when the IDF kidnapping/rocket barrage started. If anything, this makes it even more egrarious, “Hey, we have some pull, Hezbollah is getting better.” “Really, we can’t tell any difference in the murdering Hezbollah scum from our end?” Lebanon can’t take responsibility for Hezbollah on the left hand while absolving themselves of it on the other, 1/3 minority support or not.

Hezbollah is the one hiding behind the innocents, and they are the ones that started the firing. They are the ones responsible for the deaths of innoncents. And before you can pin any secondary blame on the Israelis for that, you’d better take a look at all the people that have enabled Hezbollah, one way or the other.

“True coward” pretty much defines terrorists, Bill Mayers famous comment notwithstanding. I know that’s not what you meant, but it’s what you should have said.

Jul 19, 2006 - 10:50 am 62. FarPastGone:

I agree with you for the most part Steven; Hezbollah are all kinds of bad, and more, just the other day I read that they had 2,000 people ready to go out around the world and attack foreign interests. Yes Lebanon defaulted on their duty to effectivley handle Hezbollah, and I am not saying it is anything less then Israels given right to handle the situation. My simple reasoning to going the way I did with my post was to not justify Hezbollah and its supporters, but to just expand the view of Hezbollah and how it is possible for them to recruit people who some times feel like they have no other place to go (and how if Israel is not careful enough they could eventually just drive more people to Hezbollah). Like I said in my first post; Sinior has publicly stated he can not under his own accord remove Hezbollah from his country, but he has also in a recent press release asked for the international community to step in and stop Israels attacks.

I am 100% for this operation, as well as think it would be detrimental to stop now (which may end up happening if the US gets involved if this is not resolved in a week), just leading Hezbollah to believe they won. Regardless though, of everything, politics or not, religious or not, the main concern I have is for the loss of innocent life, Israeli or Lebanese. I have a sour sentiment towards Israel right now (if you could not have told from my first post) because they seem to be the ones killing the majority of civilians, but then again there is also a cause behind these killings that is just unlike Hezbollah.

Lebanon has just become a puppet for Syria and Iran to use on the front against Israel.

It is not that I am out of touch with anything I am just a peace jockey that feels like the Lebanese should be given a little more respect even if they got themselves in to the situation. My approach might be a little awkward, and I am timid to take it at times knowing that it will just get shut down, but once again to just reafirm myself, in my first post I was not trying to defend or make justful the Hezbollah. It was just me trying to parallel the fact that Israel needs to be careful in this effort and not just end up driving more Lebanese to join the HA efforts or get Syria and Iran involved like Iran is hoping.

Jul 19, 2006 - 1:14 pm 63. Phil@phildennison.net:

The American supporters of these Lebanese bloggers are nothing more than enablers. One of these bloggers has now run off crying to Syria of all places. It would be comically absurd if it wasn’t so sad.

“Run off crying.” I’d surely like to see what Brave Sir Roger here would do in a similiar situation. I’m sure after you cleaned the feces from your underwear you’d take up arms and fight, right?

Jul 19, 2006 - 4:14 pm

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