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	<title>Comments on: King Kofi, dead civilians and the compliant media</title>
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	<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/</link>
	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Gary Rosen</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80282</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Rosen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 06:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, let&#039;s just let &quot;markus&quot;, the greatest military strategist since Clausewitz, decide what the best course of action is for the IDF.  Besides, he&#039;s such a friend of Jews and Israel, you know.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, let&#8217;s just let &#8220;markus&#8221;, the greatest military strategist since Clausewitz, decide what the best course of action is for the IDF.  Besides, he&#8217;s such a friend of Jews and Israel, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: ray_g</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80281</link>
		<dc:creator>ray_g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thought experiment:  If radical groups in Tijuana were firing rockets into San Diego, also kidnapping Border Patrol agents, and the Mexican government was unwilling or unable to do anything about it, what  should the U.S. government do?   What do you think it would do?

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought experiment:  If radical groups in Tijuana were firing rockets into San Diego, also kidnapping Border Patrol agents, and the Mexican government was unwilling or unable to do anything about it, what  should the U.S. government do?   What do you think it would do?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Peters</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80280</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80280</guid>
		<description>Markus:
OK, tactics. If Lebanon is to weak to disarm Hezbollah, if the U.N. can&#039;t or won&#039;t disarm Hezbollah, and if the rest of the world won&#039;t disarm Hezbollah, who should? Or should Israel just accept the fact that Hezbollah is going to be the defacto rulers of Lebanon, as far as war goes, and just accept the fact that they will get shelled at Hezbollah&#039;s wim.

Hezbollah wants to be able to continue their low grade war on Israel. Shell Israel every month or so, occassionally cross the border for a suicide bombing or a soldier snatch, ignore the wishes of the U.N. to join the entire state of Lebanon and not act as an agent of Syria and Iran. Yes, there would be no war as long as Israel accepts the fact that outside countries host private militias that state their goal is the destruction of Israel and carry on a constant hit and run battle that has no end in sight.

Israel can&#039;t seperate the fact that either through weakness or indifference Lebanon has allowed Hezbollah to take over their foreign policy and their capacity to wage war or peace. Hezbollah is waging war from Lebanon and in the midst of Lebanon. And not just in the south. Hezbollah operates out of Beirut, contrary to the press meme that Hezbollah is only waging war from the south. They control and operate out of parts of Beirut, there is the Hezbolllah controlled sections of Beirut.

The Taliban was host to Al Queda and  allowed Al Queda to operate all over the land. No one bought their excuse that they didn&#039;t share responsibility for the 9-11 attacks.They didn&#039;t perform that foul act but they allowed it to happen and gave sanctuary to the perpatrators. But if Israel sets up a situation where they say we will only atttack Hezbollah as long as they are seperate from any non Hezbollah Lebanese guess what Hezbollah will do and has done. They will set their rocket launchers right next to U.N. outposts nad Hospitals, Mosques, and civillian neighborhoods, thus making them impervious to attack. They will be able to launch their rockets, Israel will just have to sit back and take it.

Hezbollah has been using this form of low grade war for 6 years and planned to keep it up indefinetly. Were they planning to invade Israel soon? No. Were they planning to continue shelling and the occasional border crossing when the mood hit them ? Yes. No country allows continues shelling of it&#039;s land forever. And Israel has been warning about the missle buildup by Hezbollah in Lebanon and the rocket attacks for years. And nothing was being done about it. And Lebanon, sadly, was going to reap the whirlwind. You can&#039;t allow a rogue army to operate in your country and not expect blowback. Ask the Taliban.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Markus:<br />
OK, tactics. If Lebanon is to weak to disarm Hezbollah, if the U.N. can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t disarm Hezbollah, and if the rest of the world won&#8217;t disarm Hezbollah, who should? Or should Israel just accept the fact that Hezbollah is going to be the defacto rulers of Lebanon, as far as war goes, and just accept the fact that they will get shelled at Hezbollah&#8217;s wim.</p>
<p>Hezbollah wants to be able to continue their low grade war on Israel. Shell Israel every month or so, occassionally cross the border for a suicide bombing or a soldier snatch, ignore the wishes of the U.N. to join the entire state of Lebanon and not act as an agent of Syria and Iran. Yes, there would be no war as long as Israel accepts the fact that outside countries host private militias that state their goal is the destruction of Israel and carry on a constant hit and run battle that has no end in sight.</p>
<p>Israel can&#8217;t seperate the fact that either through weakness or indifference Lebanon has allowed Hezbollah to take over their foreign policy and their capacity to wage war or peace. Hezbollah is waging war from Lebanon and in the midst of Lebanon. And not just in the south. Hezbollah operates out of Beirut, contrary to the press meme that Hezbollah is only waging war from the south. They control and operate out of parts of Beirut, there is the Hezbolllah controlled sections of Beirut.</p>
<p>The Taliban was host to Al Queda and  allowed Al Queda to operate all over the land. No one bought their excuse that they didn&#8217;t share responsibility for the 9-11 attacks.They didn&#8217;t perform that foul act but they allowed it to happen and gave sanctuary to the perpatrators. But if Israel sets up a situation where they say we will only atttack Hezbollah as long as they are seperate from any non Hezbollah Lebanese guess what Hezbollah will do and has done. They will set their rocket launchers right next to U.N. outposts nad Hospitals, Mosques, and civillian neighborhoods, thus making them impervious to attack. They will be able to launch their rockets, Israel will just have to sit back and take it.</p>
<p>Hezbollah has been using this form of low grade war for 6 years and planned to keep it up indefinetly. Were they planning to invade Israel soon? No. Were they planning to continue shelling and the occasional border crossing when the mood hit them ? Yes. No country allows continues shelling of it&#8217;s land forever. And Israel has been warning about the missle buildup by Hezbollah in Lebanon and the rocket attacks for years. And nothing was being done about it. And Lebanon, sadly, was going to reap the whirlwind. You can&#8217;t allow a rogue army to operate in your country and not expect blowback. Ask the Taliban.</p>
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		<title>By: ray_g</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80279</link>
		<dc:creator>ray_g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>While I&#039;ll agree that the civilians in these countries don&#039;t &quot;deserve&quot; to die,  quite honestly I have become indifferent to their fate.  For too long the alleged moderates in the Middle East have, either through direct support or simple acquiescence, allowed these rogue elements to become established and grow in their midst.  That has consequences.  I am also weary of the arguments that they support people like Hezbollah or Hamas because these groups provide security or services.  Hey, I can get some pretty neat things from the devil, for the right price.

Long established traditions of warfare hold that if you attempt to use civilians as shields, you are morally responsible for their deaths, not your opponent.  Hezbollah and their supporters are 100% responsible for what is happening.

&quot;...attacking..parts of the national infrastructure needed by all Lebanese....try to turn the Lebanese people, and the extremely weak Lebanese army, against the Hezbollah militia...stupid tactical move.&quot;

I think it is a smart an necessary strategic move.  The message is that if you are going to allow this cancer to grow in your country, then it is going to hurt when someone cuts it out.  And the message should be heeded by the entire Middle East, not just Lebanon.

To paraphrase General Sherman about damage caused by his march to the sea - war is brutality, and there is no way around that - so if you want the destruction to stop then stop the war.   And yes, I mean that HB should surrender, unconditionally.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I&#8217;ll agree that the civilians in these countries don&#8217;t &#8220;deserve&#8221; to die,  quite honestly I have become indifferent to their fate.  For too long the alleged moderates in the Middle East have, either through direct support or simple acquiescence, allowed these rogue elements to become established and grow in their midst.  That has consequences.  I am also weary of the arguments that they support people like Hezbollah or Hamas because these groups provide security or services.  Hey, I can get some pretty neat things from the devil, for the right price.</p>
<p>Long established traditions of warfare hold that if you attempt to use civilians as shields, you are morally responsible for their deaths, not your opponent.  Hezbollah and their supporters are 100% responsible for what is happening.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;attacking..parts of the national infrastructure needed by all Lebanese&#8230;.try to turn the Lebanese people, and the extremely weak Lebanese army, against the Hezbollah militia&#8230;stupid tactical move.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it is a smart an necessary strategic move.  The message is that if you are going to allow this cancer to grow in your country, then it is going to hurt when someone cuts it out.  And the message should be heeded by the entire Middle East, not just Lebanon.</p>
<p>To paraphrase General Sherman about damage caused by his march to the sea &#8211; war is brutality, and there is no way around that &#8211; so if you want the destruction to stop then stop the war.   And yes, I mean that HB should surrender, unconditionally.</p>
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		<title>By: markus</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80278</link>
		<dc:creator>markus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80278</guid>
		<description>Kevin -- You bring up uncontested points that every fairminded observer completely agrees with:  Hezbollah started this war, Hezbollah could end it if they wanted to (by surrendering!), Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks and kidnapping.

You bring them up in order to avoid responding to the charge that Israel, in addition to attacking Hezbollah targets, is also attacking non-Hezbollah targets, and parts of the national infrastructure needed by all Lebanese.  (like Beirut&#039;s Christian TV station!) And they are doing this in order to try to turn the Lebanese people, and the extremely weak Lebanese army, against the Hezbollah militia, which just happens to be the best Arab army in the whole region.  And that this is at best a stupid, stupid, stupid tactical move.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin &#8212; You bring up uncontested points that every fairminded observer completely agrees with:  Hezbollah started this war, Hezbollah could end it if they wanted to (by surrendering!), Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks and kidnapping.</p>
<p>You bring them up in order to avoid responding to the charge that Israel, in addition to attacking Hezbollah targets, is also attacking non-Hezbollah targets, and parts of the national infrastructure needed by all Lebanese.  (like Beirut&#8217;s Christian TV station!) And they are doing this in order to try to turn the Lebanese people, and the extremely weak Lebanese army, against the Hezbollah militia, which just happens to be the best Arab army in the whole region.  And that this is at best a stupid, stupid, stupid tactical move.</p>
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		<title>By: tioedong</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80277</link>
		<dc:creator>tioedong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the news story I&#039;m waiting to break is the &quot;chemical weapons&quot;. At least two stories were noted on Pajama media, but although the charges remain the same, the descriptions are wrong for mustard or nerve gas but I guess they realized it because now they&#039;r claiming phosphorus...the story has changed several times, and now there are photos...
Well, sorry but the photos look like people are exposed to severe heat...for example, if you are upstairs when the heat from a fire downstairs goes up, and you die but no flames.
There are even descriptions of &quot;shrunken bodies&quot; in the doc&#039;s description... sounds like Vonnegut&#039;s description of people dead in bunkers in Slaughterhouse five.
Someone at PM needs to find a forensic doc to write on this.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the news story I&#8217;m waiting to break is the &#8220;chemical weapons&#8221;. At least two stories were noted on Pajama media, but although the charges remain the same, the descriptions are wrong for mustard or nerve gas but I guess they realized it because now they&#8217;r claiming phosphorus&#8230;the story has changed several times, and now there are photos&#8230;<br />
Well, sorry but the photos look like people are exposed to severe heat&#8230;for example, if you are upstairs when the heat from a fire downstairs goes up, and you die but no flames.<br />
There are even descriptions of &#8220;shrunken bodies&#8221; in the doc&#8217;s description&#8230; sounds like Vonnegut&#8217;s description of people dead in bunkers in Slaughterhouse five.<br />
Someone at PM needs to find a forensic doc to write on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Peters</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80276</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80276</guid>
		<description>Markus:

Hezbollah controls the southern section of Beirut. Some of the assorted journalists have been given tours by Hezbollah reps in Beirut, and they noted that Hezbollah security details were present. The bulk of Hezbollah is in southern Beirut but they also are prersent in the city and there leaders are there also. They are also part of the Lebanese parliment. Once again, none of this would have happened if Hezbollah hadn&#039;t started this war. They started it. If they were so concerned about the innocent civilians they would stop shelling Israel and they would give up the two soldiers. The war would stop, the innocent deaths would stop. Hezbollah wants this war, they don&#039;t give a rats a** about their fellow countryme, they don&#039;t want an independent Lebanon unless they have minority control. Thats why they protested for Syrian control after the assasination. It is an awful situation but Israel can&#039;t be expected to accept shelling of it&#039;s country by Hezbollah and just sit and take it. Hezbollah started this war, and even though they have no chance of defeating Israel they want to continue it. This is the same group of people who bombed the Jewish senior center in South America. Death and destruction is what they want to achieve there goals. Israel had to choose between their citizens or Lebanese citizens. They have done what most countries do, they protect their own. They had to attack Hezbollah and Hezbollah has put the innocents in harms way.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Markus:</p>
<p>Hezbollah controls the southern section of Beirut. Some of the assorted journalists have been given tours by Hezbollah reps in Beirut, and they noted that Hezbollah security details were present. The bulk of Hezbollah is in southern Beirut but they also are prersent in the city and there leaders are there also. They are also part of the Lebanese parliment. Once again, none of this would have happened if Hezbollah hadn&#8217;t started this war. They started it. If they were so concerned about the innocent civilians they would stop shelling Israel and they would give up the two soldiers. The war would stop, the innocent deaths would stop. Hezbollah wants this war, they don&#8217;t give a rats a** about their fellow countryme, they don&#8217;t want an independent Lebanon unless they have minority control. Thats why they protested for Syrian control after the assasination. It is an awful situation but Israel can&#8217;t be expected to accept shelling of it&#8217;s country by Hezbollah and just sit and take it. Hezbollah started this war, and even though they have no chance of defeating Israel they want to continue it. This is the same group of people who bombed the Jewish senior center in South America. Death and destruction is what they want to achieve there goals. Israel had to choose between their citizens or Lebanese citizens. They have done what most countries do, they protect their own. They had to attack Hezbollah and Hezbollah has put the innocents in harms way.</p>
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		<title>By: dougf</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80275</link>
		<dc:creator>dougf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80275</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Civilian &lt;/i&gt; Deaths.

The era when there is a differentiation between &#039;civilian&#039; and &#039;military&#039; is perhaps rapidly drawing to a close. Groups like Al-Queda and Hezbollah are its pallbearers. Sooner or later they will drag everyone down to their level. They won&#039;t stop coming and yet they must be stopped.

The &#039;rules&#039; were the product of a particular Nation State environment. The product of &#039;&lt;i&gt;enlightened self-interest &lt;/i&gt;, dressed up as &#039;morality&#039;. The new TERROR is making these &#039;rules&#039; a quaint relic of a golden past.

If you literally can&#039;t tell the armed enemy from his surroundings, cannot engage in a mano-a-mano war of attrition with that enemy(and we all know that we can&#039;t), but you also can&#039;t allow that enemy to emerge victorious, your options are remarkably few. If you can&#039;t win &#039;hearts and minds&#039;, then what is your sole remaining technique, especially when you are relying on technology&#039; to win the day? Technology can&#039;t draw &#039;fine&#039; ethical distinctions.

Unless this new scourge is brought to heel by a concerted world effort( &lt;i&gt;insert snide comment here&lt;/i&gt;), there will come a time when the &#039;old methods&#039; of dealing with these issues become &#039;new &#039; again.

And you can legitimately say that these methods are not &#039;right&#039;; what you can&#039;t say is that they are not effective.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Civilian </i> Deaths.</p>
<p>The era when there is a differentiation between &#8216;civilian&#8217; and &#8216;military&#8217; is perhaps rapidly drawing to a close. Groups like Al-Queda and Hezbollah are its pallbearers. Sooner or later they will drag everyone down to their level. They won&#8217;t stop coming and yet they must be stopped.</p>
<p>The &#8216;rules&#8217; were the product of a particular Nation State environment. The product of &#8216;<i>enlightened self-interest </i>, dressed up as &#8216;morality&#8217;. The new TERROR is making these &#8216;rules&#8217; a quaint relic of a golden past.</p>
<p>If you literally can&#8217;t tell the armed enemy from his surroundings, cannot engage in a mano-a-mano war of attrition with that enemy(and we all know that we can&#8217;t), but you also can&#8217;t allow that enemy to emerge victorious, your options are remarkably few. If you can&#8217;t win &#8216;hearts and minds&#8217;, then what is your sole remaining technique, especially when you are relying on technology&#8217; to win the day? Technology can&#8217;t draw &#8216;fine&#8217; ethical distinctions.</p>
<p>Unless this new scourge is brought to heel by a concerted world effort( <i>insert snide comment here</i>), there will come a time when the &#8216;old methods&#8217; of dealing with these issues become &#8216;new &#8216; again.</p>
<p>And you can legitimately say that these methods are not &#8216;right&#8217;; what you can&#8217;t say is that they are not effective.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80274</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80274</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And THAT is why Lebanese hospitals have no electicity these days.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, hospitals usually have generators.  If Lebanese hospitals don&#039;t have elecxtricity, it&#039;s because someone screwed up.

It &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; however why Hizb&#039;allah HQ in Beirut doesn&#039;t have electricity.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And THAT is why Lebanese hospitals have no electicity these days.</i></p>
<p>Actually, hospitals usually have generators.  If Lebanese hospitals don&#8217;t have elecxtricity, it&#8217;s because someone screwed up.</p>
<p>It <i>is</i> however why Hizb&#8217;allah HQ in Beirut doesn&#8217;t have electricity.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80273</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2006/07/25/king-kofi-dead-civilians-and-the-compliant-media/#comment-80273</guid>
		<description>Goddamit.

&quot;Some Germans &lt;b&gt;weren&#039;t&lt;/b&gt; supporters....&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goddamit.</p>
<p>&#8220;Some Germans <b>weren&#8217;t</b> supporters&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
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