63 Comments

1. Michael J. Totten:

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this is true. These bastards are vicious. And, please understand, all along their weapons have been pointed at Lebanese just as much as they have been pointed at Israelis. Everyone in Lebanon knows this. At least they did know this until the conflict escalated…

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:36 am 2. Terrye:

I would believe it. This whole thing is just so awful. The media is so willing to jump in there and start running off at the mouth without even questioning what is happening.

I also wonder about the lag time of several hours before the building collapsed. It all seems so strange to me.

Aug 1, 2006 - 3:14 am 3. David Thomson:

The MSM journalists are worried about Hezbollah ìaccidentallyî murdering them. Ever hear of the Stockhold Syndrome? Reporting stories not favorable to Hezbollah is a dangerous thing to do.

Would Hezbollah sacrifice the lives of young children? Why not? These youngsters would be considered martyrs and immediately enter the gates of heaven. It would be good for them to die for this noble cause.

Aug 1, 2006 - 3:39 am 4. Martin Adamson:

More evidence for the handicapped children theory from a French website. A nurse with experience of working with handicapped children points out that many of the children shown seem to have significant handicaps, which would be very improbable if they were part of the same two families.

http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=9800

Aug 1, 2006 - 4:18 am 5. syn:

The mainstream media pretty much disgraced itself beyond words with their declaration of cannibalism during their Katrina coverage.

We were Oprahfeyed then and it’s happening again.

Aug 1, 2006 - 5:17 am 6. Bruce Wechsler:

If true, shocking, yes. But surprising, not. It sure seems to have Mugniyeh’s fingerprints all over it.

Unless it can be shown, and shown quickly and verifiably, that the collapse of the building was ultimately caused by Hezbola ordinance and/or that Hezbola imprisoned these people and children in the building, the PR damage is likely irrevocable.

Though I have had many opportunities to unlearn my reflex to be dissapointed, it still eats at me that the only collateral civilian deaths in time of war that are NOT generally accepted as “unfortunate but impossible to avoid” is when the killer is Jewish and the victim is not.

All my prayers to the entire Israeli populace and military. May the heads of Nasrallah and Mugniyeh be handed to Iran in short order.

Aug 1, 2006 - 6:55 am 7. PeterUK:

Hezbollah are relying on the West being too squeamish to analyse the pictures,is there a pathologist or a forensics expert will give an opinion on these harrowing pictures.
One thing is striking,there is no blood,which could indicate that the poor souls were dead before the rubble was on them.

It is essential that this issue is addressed…this is the new face of warfare…and we are losing.

Aug 1, 2006 - 6:56 am 8. Charlie (Colorado):

At the best, they were so initially unquestioning about this event as to have shown themselves to be both incompetent as journalists and contemptibly biased as human beings.

Well, duh!

Aug 1, 2006 - 7:01 am 9. cathyf:

Even simpler, fits the data a bit better, and requires slightly less depravity on the part of the Hezzies — they waited for the Israelis to bomb near an apartment building, brought in dead bodies from the morgue in Tyre, then blew up the building. And then staged the “rescue” media event for their compliant LSM buddies.

It explains the 7-8 hour gap, the clean pacifier (it was clipped on later), the rigor mortis of the bodies.

cathy

Aug 1, 2006 - 7:02 am 10. Jamie Irons:

This analysis of the Weaponization of Children by Vanderleun is pertinent…

(Thanks to Buddy Larson)

Jamie Irons

Aug 1, 2006 - 7:27 am 11. Jamie Irons:

Sorry, Buddy. It’s Larsen…

Jamie Irons

Aug 1, 2006 - 7:32 am 12. Rick Ballard:

Cathy,

I agree. The most likely explanation is that the Hezzies have a few Kids Corpses R Us refrigerated trucks hauling baby bodies around for the photoghouls. If journalism were actually practiced, that fact would make a real story. As it is, the MSM propagandists are like baby birds waiting with open mouths for the Hezzies to drop their not so fresh worms.

I’m not at all sure that the ploy is working this time. The Chief Thief did not get what he asked for from the UNSC, there will be no UN Rape & Robbery specialists sent in to give aid to the Hezzies and there is no ceasefire.

Even the lefty knee jerk reaction seems rather subdued at this point. Rather pro forma in fact. At this point I wouldn’t declare this a propaganda victory for the Hezzies. If Israel pushes to the Litani and continues to mop up Hezzies then the Israelis have the advantage.

Aug 1, 2006 - 7:40 am 13. Always right:

If true,

This is another obligation the bloggers have to accomplish. Email to as many fellow bloggers, FNC (Brit Hume, Chris Wallace, Hanity, etc.), radio host/hostess. Just point out the inconsistencies in the MSM reporting. Let them dig deeper themselves.

We (the whole alternative msm) have to raise it to the RatherGate level. See which news outlet comes out with retaction, appologies, etc.

Aug 1, 2006 - 8:10 am 14. Plainslow:

I agree with everyone here. But I do wonder what I would do if I was a journalist in thier position in Lebanon. With threats (implied or otherwise)to me and anyone who works with me, then or later. I might do things like, make sure that people could figure out that this was staged. Wrong time tables and using the same guy for different parts of the stories, and hope that the blogs (especially) would pick up on it?

Aug 1, 2006 - 8:15 am 15. David Thomson:

“I agree with everyone here. But I do wonder what I would do if I was a journalist in thier position in Lebanon.”

It’s called the Stockholm Syndrome. This justified fear explains much of their journalism coming out of the Middle East. The MSM representatives subconsciously realize that they are “captives” of Hezbollah. Unsurprisingly, a suspicious accident can be arranged.

Aug 1, 2006 - 9:11 am 16. markus:

It is true that anti-Israeli propogandists are indiscriminately peddling the claim that Israel intentioally targeted the civilians, and also that way too many people are inclined to believe this. But the theories entertained here are just as ridiculous and implausible.

For what happened at Qana to have been staged, all of the villagers interviewed in the following article talking about their dead family members, along with the head of the Lebanese Red CROSS, would have to be lying through their teeth:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74379

The Neighborhood Bully’s* official position — that the IDF didn’t know there were civilians in the building, and wouldn’t have bombed it if they did — is much more credible.

* best zionist song ever.

Aug 1, 2006 - 9:32 am 17. Michael J. Totten:

“It’s called the Stockholm Syndrome.”

No, it isn’t. You don’t know what it’s like to be a journalist around these people while they threaten you as a matter of course. They threatened me for a lot less than this at a time when they were restrained. I know two other journalists, both leftists, who were threatened and menaced by these people. Now they’re on a rampage, summarily executing Israeli “spies” in the streets.

Aug 1, 2006 - 9:36 am 18. Rick Ballard:

I wouldn’t want to call the people interviewed liars but

“”We couldn’t get out of our neighborhood because there are only two roads leading out and the Israelis bombed them both several days ago,” said Mohammad Shalhoub, a disabled 41-year-old who was recovering in Tyre’s government hospital”.

displays some logical inconsistencies that are risible. How did the poor pathetic fella make it to Tyre? Was he tied to a donkey and transported by goat path? How did the press get into Kana so quickly on those impassable roads?

He and his family chose to stay and play with the Hezzies. Had they kept better company they might all be alive today.

Aug 1, 2006 - 9:41 am 19. TedM:

A Modest Proposal:

Could we stop calling them Hezbollah which is Arabic and start calling them by their English
name PARTY OF GOD.

Aug 1, 2006 - 9:59 am 20. PeterUK:

“Could we stop calling them Hezbollah which is Arabic and start calling them by their English
name PARTY OF GOD.”

Sorry TedM,I think the Republicans have the copyright.

Aug 1, 2006 - 10:15 am 21. ray_g:

“Corpses R Us”

Thanks Rick, now I have to clean my keyboard.

TedM and anyone else: I have seen “Hezbollah” and “Hizbollah” – which is correct, or are these just equivalent, alternate spellings?

Aug 1, 2006 - 10:15 am 22. David Thomson:

“It’s called the Stockholm Syndrome.”

No, it isn’t. You don’t know what it’s like to be a journalist around these people while they threaten you as a matter of course.î

Nope, I think I get the better of this argument. These journalists donít want to admit to themselves that they are ìhostagesî of Hezbollah. Subconsciously, they begin identifying with this terrorist organization—-and condemning Israel.

This definition seems accurate to me:

ìThe Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in a hostage, in which the hostage exhibits seeming loyalty to the hostage-taker, in spite of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed.î

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Aug 1, 2006 - 10:19 am 23. PeterUK:

“For what happened at Qana to have been staged, all of the villagers interviewed in the following article talking about their dead family members, along with the head of the Lebanese Red CROSS, would have to be lying through their teeth:”

Don’t know much about the Soviet Union or Red China then? You are presuming that the villagers are neutral and that the LRC isn’t open to coercion.Certainly a photo journalist with a Pulitzer in mind might no be too fussy.

Aug 1, 2006 - 10:24 am 24. markus:

PeterK — are calling this man a liar?:

“In the hospital’s courtyard, Mohammed Shalhoub sat with lifeless eyes, his right hand broken. His wife, Khadija, and his mother, Hasna, were dead, as were his daughters Hawra and Zahra, ages 12 and 2. So were his sons, Ali, 10, Yahya, 9, and Assem, 7.

For long moments, he was quiet. Then he spoke, to no one in particular.

“I wish God would have left me just one child,” he said softly.

He started crying, his body heaving. “Oh, God!” he yelled.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/30/AR2006073000594_pf.html

Aug 1, 2006 - 10:56 am 25. Michael J. Totten:

David, I know these people. (Journalists in Lebanon, I mean.) You don’t. You are psychoanalyzing them from a much greater distance than I am.

Some idiot journalists in Lebanon do actually support Hezbollah. Maybe 10 percent or so. But most do not. Most are well aware that HA are warmongering Jew-haters with rockets.

Aug 1, 2006 - 10:57 am 26. David Thomson:

ìYou are psychoanalyzing them from a much greater distance than I am.î

That may very well give me the distinct advantage. You could be too close to these individuals. Who really cares what they say in private? Iím more interested in their public utterances. They seem to go out of their way to not so subtly slander Israel and essentially give Hezbollah a free ride.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:06 am 27. Rick Ballard:

He’s not a very good muslim, Markus. A good muslim simply accepts allah’s will. It was allah’s will that this fellow kept his family with the hezzie body snatchers and it was allah’s will that that the fellow’s children die to provide good propaganda for the body snatcher’s cause.

He needs to spend more time with his koran – the kids really should have been in the ground by sunset according to its unfailing teachings.

Since he’s obviously not a good muslim there is no reason to believe him.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:15 am 28. David Thomson:

ìPeterK — are calling this man a liar?:î

He probably is telling the truth. The central question, however, is this: is there any evidence that the distraught father dares to blame Hezbollah? Israel is not morally responsible for the death of his children. The fault lays squarely on the shoulders of the terrorist organization.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:15 am 29. juan_golblado:

Michael, David is talking about an unconscious reaction not a conscious support for Hezbullah.

And if “most (of the journalists in Lebanon) are well aware that HA are warmongering Jew-haters with rockets” then how come “most” of the reports out of Lebanon show them as legitimate actors and reasonable people?

Oh, and Markus, that is a moving account in the WaPo article which is no doubt true. No one is saying there were no innocent victims in the Qana blast. What is being said is that Hezbollah manipulated the situation and possibly caused it. In just what way and to what extent is not at all clear. Yet. Maybe we will get to the bottom of it.

I would like to think that Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora had this in mind when he called for an “international investigation into the Qana massacre”.

I think most people now will have seen the photographs smuggled out from behind Hezbullah lines by an Australian photojournalist showing mobile HA rocket launchers set up next to an apartment building with its washing hung out to dry, and his report that it only took a couple of minutes after the rockets were fired for the Israeli trace-back to reach it. Only two civilians were killed in that one and the Hezzies were long gone.

And I hope you have also seen the IDF footage, various videos, showing HA attacks from behind residential buildings, and a mobile launchers taking shelter in the garage of a house.

And I hope you have seen the reports of people huddled in unsafe buildings with HA operatives standing guard outside.

Maybe we will get to see if all this adds up to what it looks like.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:20 am 30. syn:

I thought Hizb’Allah translates as Army of God.

Regarding journalists…fear is a difficult thing to overcome but imagine for a moment a time here in America when the KKK would hang blacks from trees yet journalists reported these events despite fear of reprecussion which ineventually led to the end of the KKK.

I realize you have been to Lebanon and have many friends there but your journalist friends are doing grave damage to their own people and themselves by cowering to the killers. If most are aware of this but do nothing to confront then the only purpose these journalists are serving is propaganda for war-mongering Jew-haters with bombs.

If Lebanonese journalists would stand up and report what is really happening then this would forced the rest of the journalism world to wake up to the lies reported.

Did we not learn the grave mistake done by CNN reporting in baghdad from 1994 to 2003 (after the removal of Saddam).

No more excuses, nothing justifies the fear.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:21 am 31. syn:

Remember sometimes the ‘Pen is mightier than the Sword’ unfortunately these days the pen is filled with blood fear.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:24 am 32. Terrye:

markus:

There are inconsistencies among the people there as well. In fact I read that the Red Cross is saying there were a lot fewer bodies than were originally reported. Now maybe the report I saw was just a mistake and it will turn the numbers were right from the outset but there is a lot of confusion in these kinds of situations.

There is a reason that investigators prefer physical evidence over eye witness accounts. Eye witnesses can lie, they can be wrong and they can be threatened or bought off.

I don’t think this had to be some big plot. All Hezbellah had to do was commit the war crime of drawing fire to civilians and then adding a little drama to reality to maximize the effects.

Tell me if we are expected to treat these terrorists as if they were state agents and negotiate with them, why can’t they be tried in the International Criminal Court for crimes against Humanity? I bet we never see that.

BTW, has anyone in the village talked about the time lag, are they saying these people died in the middle of the night or in the am or what?

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:36 am 33. markus:

Terrye — As far as I can tell, local people, the Lebanese government, the Lebanese Red Cross, and UN officials are saying these people died in the middle of the night, and that it took several hours for rescue workers and journalists to get to them because of the Israeli air campaign and difficulty of reaching the village due to the earlier bombing of roads.

Rick Ballard — your words are ugly and heartless, as ugly and heartless as the way many Arabs talk about Israeli casualties. And I’m sure you’re the kind of person who knows this and couldn’t care less.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:48 am 34. PeterUK:

Markus,
This is very second hand,via a Wappo reporter,probably from one ob=f the News Agencies,all of which have form when exageration to SELL a story,that is what the WAPO does,sells “news”.
It is neither implausible nor improbable, that the story was a fabrication or that the reporter was indulging in literary licence.
As for the man lying or even sacrificing his children,you must have come across the word martyrs in connection with Hezbollah before surely?

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:55 am 35. markus:

PeterUK — you would make a good Holocaust denier. They talk (and think) just like you do.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:56 am 36. David Thomson:

ìMichael, David is talking about an unconscious reaction not a conscious support for Hezbullah.î

Thank you. Furthermore, I also realize that Iím expressing my thoughts in a very safe area of Houston, Texas. Might I be so bold if I knew Hezbollah could arrange for me to have an ìaccident?î The Stockholm Syndrome reaction of Michaelís friends in Lebanon is quite understandable.

Aug 1, 2006 - 11:57 am 37. Rick Ballard:

Markus,

What I’m sure is that anyone who fails to place the blame for this at the feet of hezbollah is a willing fool. Peddling dead baby pictures and oh so sad stories about families destroyed because they failed to walk far enough away from a hezzie stronghold just doesn’t cut it anymore.

Try something new in the propaganda line – you could talk about Army recruitment goals not being met again. Except that they are. There’s surely some futile nihilist point that you can focus upon without waving dead babies around, isn’t there? Or do dead babies give you a little thrill?

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:06 pm 38. PeterUK:

Stop lecturing people as if you know more or have some personal knowledge about this tragedy,all you come up with is simple minded regurgitations of part digested second hand information.
If you are going to spew filth like Holocaust denier at me,you are fair game.Playing on the grown up sites,means you are going to have to leave your peurile debating tactics behind,understand?

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:10 pm 39. submandave:

“Might I be so bold if I knew Hezbollah could arrange for me to have an ìaccident?î The Stockholm Syndrome reaction of Michaelís friends in Lebanon is quite understandable.”

Michael, as a writer/journalist who has been in Lebanon an dknows many of these reporters, I wonder what you think is the nobler route: to stay in Lebanon, suffer the Hizbollah slings and arrows and try to get as much truth out as you can (i.e. the CNN Eason Jordan strategy), or; to leave Lebanon with what information and evidence you can, firm that a snapshot of truth is more valuable than a running film of half-lies. Is it more important to maintain access or get the truth out?

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:18 pm 40. markus:

Rick — I have no problem blaming Hezbollah for having starting this war. I have a problem with people like you (and PeterUK) who blame innocent victims of the war — a disabled man who has just lost his entire family — for getting caught in the line of fire. Which is what you do, while adding a few sarcastic insults about his religion.

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:25 pm 41. Michael J. Totten:

I don’t know, Submandave, partly because I do not know how much pressure Hezbollah is putting on journalists now. They applied some (rhetorical only, but scary) pressure during peace time, so it’s probably worse today. It’s also possible that they are incapable of monitoring what journalists publish due to them being, um, distracting with other things.

Some of these journalists also parachuted in from somewhere else when the bangbang started, and they are reporting from a country they do not understand. I know how it feels to show up in a new place for the first time, and it’s hard to get things right. It must be ten times harder right now for someone in that position.

Lebanon is especially difficult. It is the most complex and convuluted place I have ever been, by far. Little is as it seems on the surface. It took me months to figure out how to even partially see through the smoke and mirrors. It’s like that everywhere in the Middle East, to an extent, but it’s doubly true in Lebanon.

I agree that a lot of this journalism is terrible, but I sympathize more with the people who are reporting under these conditions.

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:30 pm 42. Jamie Irons:

For whatever it’s worth, I’d like to come down here on the side of Michael Totten.

Mr. Totten has taken risks beyond anything I can imagine myself taking, and has tried to get as “objective” (I know the limits of that word) a view of goings on in the Midddle East as it is possible for a single individual, operating entirely on his own resources, to get.

I have read the bulk of his reporting, and find it to be fair-minded, humane and wise, though I often sharply disagree with him about particular questions.

I think he is a man who is not easily hoodwinked, and we should give considerable weight to his opinions.

Just my $0.02.

Jamie Irons

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:37 pm 43. Rick Ballard:

Markus,

Perhaps you didn’t notice but the hezzie body snatchers peddle themselves as allah’s army. Pointing out that their abuse of children’s bodies is expressly forbidden by what they call their religion is fair – as is noting that peculiar concept known as inshallah which states that anything that happens is the will of allah. Note that the saddened father asked why allah didn’t leave him at least one child. Today he has undoubtedly realized his error and resigned himself to allah’s will.

Shouldn’t you be holding a vigil for Castro today?

Aug 1, 2006 - 12:51 pm 44. shel:

Very interesting and informative thread (aside from markus’ usual passive aggressive games, while he ignores the very good points made by commenters like juan golblado, etc., and the fact that even Mr. Totten is saying it’s largely smoke and mirrors there.)

What makes me less than totally sympathetic for people like the man who lost his family above is the PASSIVITY. As a parent I would have done ANYTHING to get my kid out of there, and barring that, at the last minute would have lain on top of him, hoping I would get blown up instead of him. How come this man was the ONLY ONE in his family who survived? what the hell was he doing?

It’s as if they think it’s all just something that happens to them, nothing they can do anything about ahead of time, and then they lay blame to whomever they already hate anyway. I think most of us in the West get very frustrated with that attitude, and I’m guessing that is where Rick and PeterUK are coming from.

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:00 pm 45. PeterUK:

Markus,
I have a problem with people like you (and PeterUK) who blame innocent victims of the war — a disabled man who has just lost his entire family -

Again Goebbels Minor,you are claiming knowledge you do not have,you absolutely do not know the man is not a member of Hezbollah.The emotional plea as to his disability,is the standard irrationality to be expected from the left.You have to take into account that Hezbollah have the liberal left playbook down perfectly.
Consider how many points of LL concern does Qana cover? Then consider that the Iranians marched children under 12 through the Iraqi minefields,having bought 500,000 little plastic keys to heaven from TaiWan.
Take into account the creators of the suicide bomber,Hezbollah and their proclivity for placing military assets in civilian areas.
Examine al the photographs the same man in different positions,children held up by the neck for photographers,the same children with pacifiers added to their clothing for a new picture.
There is plenty to think about concerning Qana and the new form of warfare which it exemplifies.So do so.

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:04 pm 46. Terrye:

markus:

I am not blaming the victims. I am pointing out the fact that they are victims because Hezbellah started a shooting war, Hezbellah made these people targets, Hezbellah used dead babies for propaganda purposes and in spite of that a great many people are showing more sympathy toward Hezbellah than they are Israel who should just lie back and think of England.

So from what I understand the the building was in fact a house [not a three story apartment building], there were survivors and the numbers are about half what was originally reported. And there is that lag time thing which I don’t know what to make of.

It is too bad that some of these outraged people did not do something about Resolution 1559 and disarm Hezbellah, but they might get hurt if they did that. Better to just sit back and let nature take its course and act like a self righteous prick.

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:11 pm 47. PeterUK:

Shel
I think we are also frustrated by the left’s complete acceptance of the Islamist’s storybook,there is an enormous propaganda effort being undertaken by Hezbollah,the understand exactly what chimes with the left.One has only to compare the utterances of al Qaeda and some liberal left politicians to realise they are saying the same thing.

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:15 pm 48. Rick Ballard:

Shel,

Peter and I both understand that the faux compassion that Markus is engaging in is precisely the same leftist crap which has been peddled for the las forty years and that it has facilitated the deaths of millions of innocents. I know that a war fought at half measure and fits and starts will kill more than war that is fought with a lethality that ensures submission of the foe.

Israel has nothing that hizbollah wants except Jewish blood. Even the Jewish lefties (even dumber, if that is possible, than those here) are beginning to understand that their survival requires killing rather than talking.

If you doubt that, then posit what hizbollah’s goals in this matter might be. You can write them all on a matchbook.

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:19 pm 49. PeterUK:

Rick,
If the Jews all packed up and moved to Palm Spings,the Iranians and their bitches would still want to kill them all.After Israel,where next,Thailand,al Andalus?

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:27 pm 50. Terrye:

Peter:

Spain of course. And if they think they can save their asses by sucking up to hezbellah and asking for a cease fire now or by refusing to call a spade a spade or Hezbellah a terrorist group…they are sadly mistaken.

Aug 1, 2006 - 1:36 pm 51. Bruce Wechsler:

Stop the presses! Whoa, horsey!! You mean to tell me that innocent people end up dying in war time (even when its those uppity Semitic types doin’ the killin’)!?

Well, that changes EVERYTHING then.
That’s just not fair.

Rick: I don’t think Markus’ compassion is faux. Just an emotional iteration of the simple truth that “War is Hell”.

So Markus, I give you this Mill quote, which I find I find most poignantly captures the difference between left and right in the U.S. and between the U.S. and the rest of the West:

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
John Stuart Mill

Aug 1, 2006 - 2:03 pm 52. PeterUK:

A good picture of the press at work toiling away in a humanitarian way.Interesting to see the other out takes.

Aug 1, 2006 - 2:40 pm 53. Luther McLeod:

Last and likely least. There is really no gray here. Equivalency rears its ugly head. For someone to accept the Hez side of the story, without any criticism nor question, is frankly, absurd.

No one, and I mean no one, knows the facts of this story, other than those who guided the tour under the auspices of the Hez ‘filtered’ journalism tour society.

Where do you lay your nickle? ‘Truth’ told by the Hez or honest ambiguity by the Israel’s, who only know what they did and cannot address the the event after.

I will err on the side of caution, meaning, tilting toward the survival of western civ, and not toward the seriously addled proponents of worldwide muslim domination. Even though, in their ignorance, these proponents may not know what they do.

Aug 1, 2006 - 7:19 pm 54. cathyf:

For someone to accept the Hez side of the story, without any criticism nor question, is frankly, absurd.

Well, notice what Hezbollah’s story is. That the took a weapon which is a war crime (nails added to the warhead to kill civilians), used a launcher which is a war crime (not precision, aimed at cities), and used it from a location which is a war crime (civilian house with civilians inside.) A War Crimes Hat Trick if you will. My criticism is of the people who think Israel is the guilty party, and my question is, “are you freaking insane?!?!?”

Markus, suppose you are driving down a busy street. I am walking on the sidewalk. All of a sudden I grab a passerby and throw him in front of your car. You have no choice and hit the guy and kill him. Who killed the guy, you or me?

cathy

Aug 1, 2006 - 9:36 pm 55. markus:

Cathy: I can play the analogy game too. This one is more appropriate:

I’m walking down the street. You, my nemesis, walk up behind me, tap me on the back, and coldcock me. I retreat for a moment, pull out my knife, and lunge at you, drawing a little blood. You pull out your knife and lunge at me too, drawing even more blood. Afraid, I pull out my gun, wave it around, threaten to shoot you. You refuse to drop your knife. I start to fire. I end up wounding you grievously, and also killing several bystanders nearby.

Who’s “fault” is it? Yours, I suppose. But what if I had responded to your initial blow with a solid punch of my own, instead of pulling out my knife? And what if I had — either before or after this incident — been willing to negotiate our mutual grievances?

Like the Jew said, blessed are the peacemakers.

In case anyone cares, the grievances that need to be addressed, either before or afterwards, are the need for Hizbollah to disarm, and for Israel to turn over its maps revealing landmines that it had planted during its occupation of Southern Lebanon, return Sheeba Farms to Lebanon, and respond to the demand that Samir Kuntar be released (which hopefully they will refuse to do).

Aug 2, 2006 - 7:27 am 56. PeterUK:

“In case anyone cares, the grievances that need to be addressed, either before or afterwards, are the need for Hizbollah to disarm, and for Israel to turn over its maps revealing landmines that it had planted during its occupation of Southern Lebanon, return Sheeba Farms to Lebanon,”

Then the Israelis can form a neat line and walk into the sea.

Markus,this is supremely witless even by your pathetic standards,the only negotiating position that Hezbollah has is is the elimination of the Sate of Israel and the destruction of the Jews,not much to ask you might say,just another grievance to be addressed.

Aug 2, 2006 - 10:39 am 57. markus:

Pete — Explain rationally the connection between disarming Hizbollah, and handing over tiny Sheeba Farms to the Lebanese, on the one hand, and Israel forming “a neat line and walking to the sea.” You can’t. You’re spouting histrionics and hysteria, utterly unsupported by real facts.

Aug 2, 2006 - 12:25 pm 58. juan_golblado:

I always at least try to think about picking out my rhetorical opponent’s strongest points, rather than weakest points, and resopnding to them – instead of jumping on the weaker points.

I don’t always manage that. Far from it. But what I tell myself is that if I keep thinking about it I will more often address the best arguments against my position than the worst ones. And I will surely learn more that way. I may convince fewer people, which is the downside, but in the long run I would like to think that I will convince more.

Aug 2, 2006 - 1:24 pm 59. PeterUK:

Markus,
Obviously,the third paragraph is a paragraph too far for you.Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews.Hezbollah’s masters in Tehran share the same ambition,to that end they are acquiring nuclear weapons.There are hundreds of public pronouncements to these ends,the daily barrage of rockets only underlines this.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon,the UN surveyors determined the Shaba Farms were on the Israeli side of the line.Yes Markus,your precious International body stated the Farms are in Israel’s territory.
Syria,that friend of peace,has pushed Hezbollah into using the Shaba farms as a casus belli over which to attack Israel.

Hezbollah is officially only one of the main political parties in Lebanon,but seems to have taken upon itself to declare war on Israel,did they go to the UN for a resolution,of course not they are a non state actor.

One has to ask why your political aims coincide with a murderous terrorist movement and a brutal dictatorship,antisemitism,Bush hatred,liberal self loathing,or are you simply on the other side?

Aug 2, 2006 - 1:43 pm 60. markus:

Peter — yes, I know that the UN claimed that Sheeba belonged to Syria, not Lebanon (and certainly not Israel). Syria, however, has now withdrawn its claim to the territory. And the United States position — according to Sec. of State Rice — is that Israel ought to withdraw from the area as part of a settlement of its conflict with Lebanon.

Aug 2, 2006 - 2:08 pm 61. PeterUK:

What conflict with Lebanon,,Israel is fighting Hezbollah,remember the non-state actor.When are you going to get it into your head,there is no upper limit the Hezbollah demands ,Israel can always go the extra mile and the Islamofascists will demand more.
Stop deluding yourself that there is anything that Israel can give other than self immolation.

Aug 2, 2006 - 2:58 pm 62. Gary Rosen:

Rick and Peter:

When “markus” calls you Holocaust deniers, he means the Jenin holocaust.

Aug 2, 2006 - 11:45 pm 63. butta86:

So, the building is hit between MIDNIGHT and 1:00AM. As soon as the building is hit, Hezbollah supporters brought the children from the morgue, and started placing them strategically around the building. Then, when all was done, and the explosives were planted, Hezbollah detonated the explosives to bring the building down onto the children’s bodies. Then, they immediately called the journalists and photographers to come down to Qana to witness the show. ANOTHER FINE HEZBOLLYWOOD PRODUCTION!

“Green Helmet Dude” = Mortician
“White T-Shirt Dude” = Director

Butta86

Aug 6, 2006 - 8:54 pm

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