35 Comments

1. mikem:

“Do we have to sit here and wait for another 9/11, perhaps even a bigger one, before our society is united?”

Unfortunately I think even that will not do the job. Frankly I think that only a Democratic majority in Congress paired with a Democratic president will allow for any real uniting among the American people. And that’s because only then will Democrats feel it is not against their political ambitions to stop making America out to be a monstrous ogre on the world stage, misled by the evil Bush regime.
But I definitely do not trust non Lieberman Democrats to defend America successfully, let alone aggressively. So my scenario of a united America requires me to pay little attention to what Democrats have said and done during the Bush administration. Blaming Bush for just about all anti-American actions requires them to blame America and we can only hope and pray that their tune will change if or when the Dems are voted back into political leadership.
Bringing up depression, today I read a column in the Washington Post Magazine by one Gene Weingarten in which he declares that accusations of even “letting liberal bias SUBTLY slip into our writing and reporting” is “calumny”. I read that and then I thought of the fact that two years after a tightly contested presidential election, we still do not know what type discharge the Democratic candidate (for CIC) received prior to the Carter amnesty. And that depresses me. Journalism has become a joke when a WP reporter can smugly make such a silly assertion, despite the obvious disparity in reporting and investigation about Bush and Kerry. Some of us thought the MSM would be shamed into a reappraisal of their performance after the election. But it has emboldened them.
Thank heaven for bloggers, Roger. Please keep doing what you are doing, even when people like me take an unfair shot at you once in a while.
If you guys quit, it’s back to depending on the Weingarten’s of the world for the “unbiased truth”.

(Sorry for the length.)

Sep 11, 2006 - 1:22 am 2. ic:

“Do we have to sit here and wait for another 9/11, perhaps even a bigger one, before our society is united?” You are such an optimist. United? I won’t hold my breath.

After a bigger one, the MoveOn crowd would claim that we definitely brought that on ourselves for taking down Saddam, infuriating the jihadists further. Bush’s approach was not working. Let’s appease. The Dems would win ‘08, and we would redeploy from Iraq(may be to Okinawa, if the Japanese are not too disgusted with us), and double our aids to try to buy off the jihadists. Sandy Berger would be sent to Iran as a special envoy to start a dialogue with the mullahs. “Nuclear weapon? Why not? The Jews have that for ages.” They would wipe the Jews off the map? “Nah, that was the neocon’s propaganda. In any case, why should our foreign policy be directed by the Jewish lobby?” They would come after us after wiping out the Jews because we are infidels. “They won’t, you know we were all born Muslims. There’s nothing wrong to revert back to our root, is there? Islam is peace, you know?”

Whenever I think of Israel, a country of 5 million Jews, I am disgusted that the New York Jewish liberals still support the Democrats. I don’t mean a Jew has to support a Jew. (I am a Chinese, but I will never support the current Chinese regime.) But it is so stupid to blame all the world’s ills on such a small group of people. Americans, Jews and nonJews have an obligation to counter that stupidity by showing solidarity with Israel.

Sep 11, 2006 - 1:37 am 3. Terrye:

mikem:

I don’t think so.

Sep 11, 2006 - 3:43 am 4. Terrye:

ic:

Well you are assuming that they don’t blame Cheney out right.

I think it will take time for the majority of the people to really get the idea. Hopefully we have the time to give them.

Sep 11, 2006 - 3:45 am 5. mikem:

I want to add that by “uniting”, I am thinking in terms of the people who have the power to make and enforce national strategy, the elected politicians, our political parties, along with the MSM which can easily shift a good 30% of the public from supporting democracy in the ME to decrying American cultural and military imperialism.
I firmly believe that if Clinton had done the same thing, in general, in Iraq that Bush has there would still be 70% support because the media would portray it as a visionary effort to “infect” the ME with democracy, thereby striking at the roots of terrorism. (Bush’s thinking, I am confident.)
But Clinton would never have lifted a finger.

Sep 11, 2006 - 5:31 am 6. Steven Mitchell:

As sad as it is true, it always takes more than a 9/11 to really get Americans united in a life and death struggle. It’s the flip side of being so bloody independent minded–normally a strength. This has been true from the birth of the country.

A friend of mine (who had spent a year in Iraq) asked me if 10 planes falling the Atlantic on the same day would unite the country. I said that it might, but I doubt it. We like to think, for example, that the Lusitania sinking united the country in the Great War, because that’s what kids are taught during that week of American history where they discuss WW1. In reality, the Lusitania seemed pivotal because of the number of civilians and *because it was a sinking after many more*. Even then, it still took the Zimmerman telegraph to help push the country over the edge.

And so it goes in American history. The revolution? Most estimates say 1/3 were loyalists and 1/3 were apathetic for the duration. Slavery? Founders saw that one coming from 70+ years out, and we still had our civil war.

On the other hand, 10 planes down may or may not accomplish the goal. If 10 doesn’t, 11 might. Or more likely, another plane here, another something else there. We Americans are strange in this way. A nuclear blast in an American city would certainly unite us, but it might not come to that. Never underestimate the great foolishness that accompanies the cunning of our opponents, either.

As for Democrats (leadership and moonbat sectors) and the press (but I repeat myself), they have long had the mostly unspoken blackmail offer to the American public: “Elect us as the only way to unite the country. You know in your heart that when push comes to shove, the Republicans will back the country over their own short-term interests. You are never really sure about us.”

Of course they don’t put it that baldly, but that is the message. Those with a “will to power” seldom are explicit. If you want to know what it takes to change *that*, then I don’t know. There is always such an element in American politics, because there are always such people. They need not control the media and a political party, but it takes a generation to undo where we are now. Dan Rather will not recant. Ward Churchill likes his fame. John Kerry will remain vapid. They are rather hapless samples out of a larger pool.

Sep 11, 2006 - 6:01 am 7. TomTom:

All voices in this posting are united in despair. Yes, we will keep struggling, but despair about those efforts. Despite Reagan, we are still burdened with the 1960s mindset. Been with us for a generation and will take a generation to undo, at least.
I share the doubt that even a nuclear wipeout of an American city will flush out our sociopolitical poisons.

Sep 11, 2006 - 6:17 am 8. Lem:

“Frankly I think that only a Democratic majority in Congress paired with a Democratic president will allow for any real uniting among the American people.”

mikem you missed the point. The attacks of 9/11 should be enough to summon the will to defeat this enemy.

We should not have to take a poll to find out we want to live. Dar nit.

Sep 11, 2006 - 6:23 am 9. Steven Mitchell:

TomTom,

That isn’t despair in my voice. We’ve always been in this situation, and we’ve done fairly well as a country. I expect both to continue for some time.

Sep 11, 2006 - 6:52 am 10. mikem:

I’ve done a poor job, obviously, of expressing my point.
Simply put, I think the Dems are too selfish to allow or agree to a “uniting” as long as they are out of power. Republicans, on the other hand, would take minority status more graciously as they have in the past. They would not attack America and its armed forces as Democrats have. They would not nominate a Hanoi Kerry for president. Etc.
In no way do I want to see the Dems back in power, which is ironic as I spent most of my adult life voting straight Dem tickets.

Sep 11, 2006 - 7:02 am 11. notthisgirl:

Living just some miles west of NYC, I was able to see the smoke coming from the Trade Center from my back yard. Our town lost over 20 people that day (3 from our church). At every stop on our sort of sleepy and but very scenic trainline into Hoboken - at least one person was murdered that day. Memorials have been placed at each station.

Over the last few years, when we venture near the southern NY City skyline, there is a painful void you’re presented with - those missing towers. That sight triggers feeling of nausea, anger, and sadness; and I have found over the years that everyone I mention this too in our area feels the same when they head over.

Back in December while flying back from Florida, I wound up next to a 9/11 survivor. She worked on one of the upper floors of one of the towers (her coworker was part of a 9/11 documentary) - and she had decided to go out for a cigarette before the plane hit. During our conversation, it became evident that she was more in the camp of Jesse Jackson politically … but as we proceeded in conversation it seemed actually more of a defense mechanizm; something she was holding onto for dear life … like a desperate grasp for September 10. Because as we talked, it became clear that she loathed the hijackers and Bin Laden, at one point saying that they “must be destroyed”. Further on, after telling her about my relatives who are involved in the WoT, she became teary and hoped that the military would succeed in all their efforts - even in Iraq, which she was against.

I think some of the desperate grasp to hold onto “who’s right” has to do with the unnverving thought of having to actually face what these terrorists hold in store for us. My neighbor on that plane certainly understood it, being witness to it. Perhaps the thought of banding together with the “other side” who ventures to DO SOMETHING about it is still too much to swallow; a sort of double-devestation that your guys don’t have a clue. But I don’t know how else you cure this desperate desire for 9/10 except for more wake-up calls. I think that’s become pretty evident. Many need to come to the realization kicking and screaming I’m afraid, and isn’t it unfortunate that this goes all the way up the food chain to Senators, etc. What does this say about our collective character? Yikes.

Sep 11, 2006 - 7:48 am 12. michael ledeen:

Rog,

Victory for our civilization IS revenge. The best.

Sep 11, 2006 - 8:23 am 13. Dana H.:

There is a good reason to look to the past as opposed to saying, “Forget how we got here; what do we do now?” The reason is so we don’t repeat the same mistakes we make before.

At least from the time that Iran seized the embassy under Carter in 1979, the pattern of both Democratic and Republican administrations toward the jihadists has been appeasement, punctuated by minimal or misdirected military action. We followed this pattern most recently in brokering a cease-fire rather than encouraging Israel to annihilate Hezbollah. And we continue it in our refusal to confront Iran in spite of its continued stalling and dissembling on the nuclear issue — and the fact that it has been in a de facto state of war with us for 27 years.

Looking at the events leading to 9/11 shows the suicidal ineffectiveness of this policy for anyone who cares to look. So my anger is mainly focused not on the war’s detractors, but on those who are directing the war and ought to know better — who ought to be fighting the war much more aggressively and ruthlessly than they are. For, as Roger implies, the fate of Western civilization does indeed hang in the balance.

Sep 11, 2006 - 8:25 am 14. Luther McLeod:

notthisgirl

Good story and well said.

You have hit on two points which I think are key to understanding those who so resist facing up to the struggle we are involved in.

“unnverving thought of having to actually face what these terrorists hold in store for us”

“”other side” who ventures to DO SOMETHING about it…”

The first point is that having to “face” the new reality destroys the construct that they have been building for the last 45 years. So much emotional investment in believing that “give peace a chance” will somehow persuade the “blue meanies” to leave them alone. My guess would be that a great many of those who persist in not “believing” that we are at war have never had a great deal of adversity in their life, either themselves or through the experience of relatives and friends.

The second point is yet another facet of attempting to keep the construct alive. Actual action against those who would harm you is another violation of the “give peace a chance” meme. If talk is not enough to change the “blue meanies” mind and/or actions, then their may be something amiss with the last forty or so years of effort at living in a ‘blue skies’ world.

A third point I would like to add. For many who are stuck in 9/10, the very ‘act’ of change, in thought or action, is extremely threating, perhaps more so than any external enemy.

Sep 11, 2006 - 8:36 am 15. Steven Mitchell:

“Perhaps the thought of banding together with the “other side” who ventures to DO SOMETHING about it is still too much to swallow; a sort of double-devestation that your guys don’t have a clue.”

Great post. I will say that we don’t need them to swallow that much. Some people have to recognize that they don’t have a solution and then simply shut up with the mindless carping. Your acquaintance seems to have realized this, to her credit.

Plenty of people in WW2 thought Rommel was going to kick our behinds. The vast majority of them had enough sense to keep this opinion to themselves while it still mattered.

Sep 11, 2006 - 8:48 am 16. Rick Ballard:

Such angst. I’m with Steven Mitchell, except I might have used the illustration of the Copperheads in the Civil War as a highlight. After all, same party, similiar ideas.

Power shifts in great nations (and this is the greatest nation that has ever existed) are never peaceful affairs. 9/11 wasn’t even a catalyst, although it was certainly an accelerant. The flames from the fire ignited serve to heighten rather than soften the contrasts between those contending for power and define matters in a manner which simplifies choices for even the most ignorant citizen.

One may choose the moderate approach of appeasement and submission, of endless talk as the ground erodes beneath ones feet or one may decide to take arms, resist and prevail. The ideology of our enemies defines the choices and the decision is purely binary.

Personally, I would never unite with those willing to submit or appease. Unity is as shallow a concept as diversity (for its own sake) or tolerance of the indefensible or respect for meritless views. Those concepts have caused more ruin than that achieved by the savages tied to a 7th century death cult could ever hope to achieve.

Sep 11, 2006 - 9:07 am 17. markus:

The 9/11 issue of the New Yorker contains some interesting articles, two of which are available online.

In the “know thine enemy” catagory: Lawrence Wright writes about Islamist jihadis “master plan.”

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060911fa_fact3

In the “hope springs eternal” catagory, an article by George Packer on a man I’ve never heard of, Mahmoud Muhammad Taha, who sounds like the Spinoza of the Islamic world:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060911fa_fact1

Sep 11, 2006 - 9:29 am 18. ricpic:

Mr. Ledeen stole my thunder. There isn’t enough desire for revenge against the Islamists.
But one more 9/11 and the fury of the American people will sweep aside the appeasing lefties like the gnats they are.

Sep 11, 2006 - 9:31 am 19. markus:

Just found a website devoted to Taha and his ideas:
http://alfikra.org/english.php

On this bleak September day, the Packer article linked above, and what I am reading about Taha, are about the only things keeping me from utter gloom.

Sep 11, 2006 - 9:34 am 20. In Vino Veritas:

Mr. Simon, immediately after 9/11 the nation was united. Indeed, the whole world was united behind America. Hendrik Hertzberg:

“The wider counterpart to our traumatized togetherness at home was an astonishing burst abroad of what can only be called pro-Americanism. Messages of solidarity and indignation came from Libya and Syria as well as from Germany and Israel; flowers and funeral wreaths piled up in front of American Embassies from London to Beijing; flags flew at half-staff across Europe; in Iran, a candlelight vigil expressed sympathy. ‘Any remnants of neutrality thinking, of
our traditional balancing act, have gone out of the window now,’ a Swedish
political scientist told Reuters. ‘There has not been the faintest shadow of
doubt, not a trace of hesitation of where we stand, nowhere in Sweden.’”

That this Administration took an unprecedented opportunity to truly change the world and cashed it in for short term political gain is to the eternal detriment of our nation.

Sep 11, 2006 - 11:18 am 21. Steven Mitchell:

“That this Administration took an unprecedented opportunity to truly change the world and cashed it in for short term political gain is to the eternal detriment of our nation.”

My wish is that you will one day live in the kind of world that you work for. It’s not very Christian of me, and I hope to change my mind someday, but right now that is my fervent hope.

Sep 11, 2006 - 11:20 am 22. Justin Case:

Good post and comments. One thing that I think a great deal of analysis about our internal divisions in the war on terror overlooks is that the large schism between Republicans and Democrats (here I exclude the far left, who are probably unpersuadable) emerged as a result of the Iraq conflict. Support for the attack on the jihadis in Afghanistan was widespread; only real dead-enders opposed our efforts to defeat people who were clearly directly tied to what was done to us.

The problem with Iraq was, and still is, that many people were not persuaded that our goals there serve to improve our security. For many Americans, Saddam was an awful man, who did awful things to his people, but was essentially neutered with respect to the ability to cause our interests serious harm. Perhaps someone more politically adept than President Bush - someone like Reagan, perhaps, who was good at speaking to people outside of his core group of supporters - could have done a better job of getting and keeping moderates on board. The fear that I have is that the President has now lost the middle, and I don’t think he’s going to get it back. One counterintuitive thing that might help is if the Democrats win at least one house of Congress; once they have some responsibility, they might feel obliged to contribute to solutions.

Sep 11, 2006 - 11:30 am 23. PJ:

“Those of us who voted for Bush need at least a portion of those who voted for Kerry on our side to defeat this enemy. But that hasn’t happened.”

I think it is happening, but on a minor scale, and very quietly. I gauge this by the comments at holiday dinners, and more and more people are noticing the continuing bombings and radical rhetoric from Islamists all over the world and are saying, well, if there are bad guys in the world, we gotta go after them…

Sep 11, 2006 - 11:34 am 24. Steven Mitchell:

Lest we forget:

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/000307.html

Sep 11, 2006 - 12:38 pm 25. Old Dad:

One of the bitter results of our poisoned politics is that we no longer can even believe in the possiblity of a loyal opposition, but surely our every day experience proves otherwise. Most of the Democrats that I know are good people and good Americans.

No doubt there is a lunatic fringe, and no doubt many of our national political leaders are despicable, but whose fault is that? Who votes for the likes of Ted Kennedy and Barbra Boxer? And I’m sure my friends on the left have equally despicable Republican targets.

But we are not a despicable nation. We are a great and noble nation and the only great power left. We deserve better, and we should demand better this November. We need great and good leaders, and I personally don’t give a damn about the letter after their names.

And they won’t come from the fever swamps of the Daily Kos or Moveon.org, and add whatever extremist right wing group that you want. The next Lincoln or Churchill or Reagan is out there in America today, but who in his right mind would subject his dignity to the utter crap that we now call political discourse?

On this 5th anniversary of that terrible day, we may feel confused and frustrated and angry because damnit we deserve better from our leaders, but the blame doesn’t fall only on Bill Clinton’s or George Bush’s shoulders. We put them there.

And we better figure out a way to talk to one another, and we better do it quick because from behind these eyes, I see no one on either side of the aisle who is fit to lead in these dangerous times. Who could seriously consider Hillary Clinton or George Allen for the Presidency?

We’ve got a lot of work to do, and let’s start this November. If your representatives can’t match up to the challenges of September 11, throw the bums out.

End of rant.

Sep 11, 2006 - 12:44 pm 26. Sandy P:

In addition to PJ’s comment, from Wretchard, and in a way Lileks and the rest:

…But the greatest event of all of the past five years has been the slow hardening of the human heart, as each of us sets his face against the unknown, our household goods and gods sheltering pitifully behind; an event undetectable save for the slow, crepitating sound of walls setting solid across the expanse of our global and tribal world…..

Whether militarily, holding back aid money like we should do to waziristan (actually, it’s convenient they’ll be in 1 area for future clean-up) we’re slowly getting there.

1 of Sean Penn’s worst nightmares is coming true, they’re saying Death to America and we’re finally listening to and believing them.

Like Path to 911 said, OBL was pissed that we weren’t paying attention to him.

Sep 11, 2006 - 1:13 pm 27. Justin Case:

Amen, Old Dad. Outstanding post.

Sep 11, 2006 - 2:51 pm 28. Carl Spackler:

What do you do when mortal danger drifts through twilight of knowledge? You do the right thing, as you can for as long as you must. For most of us it is not much of burden, for a few, everything they have.

We should have faith that the soldier, the artisan, the laborer, the physicians, and unmet good men, will in the great-unseen wheel of life deliver us to a better future. Everything need not be reveled to us; we just need to have a little faith and act, as we are able.

Sep 11, 2006 - 2:55 pm 29. Steven E. Ehrbar:

Don’t worry about “nuclear winter”.

The original nuclear winter scenarios required literally thousands of nuclear devices, and were later found to be fatally flawed. You could set off every nuke the world had when the arsenals of both the U.S. and Soviet Union were at their height and the resulting particulate-caused cooldown would only be on the order of the 1816 “Year Without a Summer”.

Sep 11, 2006 - 3:27 pm 30. Ari Tai:

re: needing at least a few on the left.

Perhaps, but who we really need are the independent third. In the revolutionary war a third wanted free of King George, a third loved Britain and thought we were nuts (and some fraction of these went to Canada or back to England), and a third were too busy making a life for themselves and their families to care. What matters is our own commitment, not others. Some call us (including those that have served and sacrificed) chicken hawks. Well, even the least of us have an opportunity at the ballot box to choose the hard road over the easy path. The Left has yet to learn that we (humankind) are wired to understand that little good comes easy, and the more free we live (using our own free-will v. being told what to do and think), the better we understand this.

Our system allows these passions to burn themselves out, and we are better for it. Next time we have more (DC) snipers, we’ll know the system is working if the Dems do NOT put a “don’t shoot me, I’m a Democrat” sticker on their car, the lamentations of Mr. Moore aside.

Time for us to have a little faith in the American people (and not demand any more perfection than we do of ourselves). After all if Mr. Rumsfeld, about the most real and well grounded person we have in public view says he trusts in us (in the “centered-ness” of the American people) to do what’s right, so can we.

Sep 11, 2006 - 6:22 pm 31. Luther McLeod:

As with most good things in life, I suppose, the quantity of posts on this thread are…not many, but, ah, the quality.

I usually do not speak (write) well, as exampled above. But what a stalwart and smart group Roger manages to collect. Names and characters fluid. But message, intent and civility are consistent. There is a reason for that Roger (can you reach your back for a pat?)

I cannot even imagine what the last five years would have been like, without the internet. Without many such sites such as Roger’s. Actually, I do not want to imagine that scenario. The world would be in much different shape, obviously. All for the worse I am afraid. This is not an original thought, but blogs are like Gutenberg all over again.

Sep 11, 2006 - 6:48 pm 32. ElMondo:

Ari Tai’s nailed it dead on. Look, I’m as concerned with the splitting off and sheer hostility of the Bush-is-Worse crowd, the America-is-Wrong crowd, and the It’s-All-Our-Fault crowd, but the US has faced a much bigger mix of foes from the start of WWII through the end of the Cold War and for much of that time had as many naysayers and detractors as it has today. And too often, those naysayers were unwittingly (or in some cases, all too wittingly) supporting a much better funded and supplied group of enemies than the radical militant islamicists are today. Yet the US didn’t break or shudder apart, and in fact still stands today while nearly all of those opponents are already history, and poorly regarded history at that.

I’m not going to diminish the difficulties the anti’s create, but my point is that the US has overcome such opposition before. This country’s been viewed by outsiders as hopelessly divided and painfully self-centered before - that was Hitler’s opinion of the average American, wasn’t it? - and the common average American still knew how to get it together when it matttered.

Do we need a few “on the left”? Of course… and they’ll be there. Somewhere. They’ve been in the past.

Sep 11, 2006 - 9:22 pm 33. markg8:

You don’t argue with your political opponents you ban them. In my last post before you banned me I told you the Iraq War and the Bush doctrine isn’t good for the Jews. In my first post on your blog I said you were deranged for continuing to pin your hopes on discredited administration ramblings on WMD. You still are Roger, you’re just too stubborn to admit it to yourself. Maybe that’s what happens when you try to psychoanalyze away your pain and fear. So wallow in your depression. For the rest of your days. It’s all you have to give your country. It’s all you ever have. Putz.

Sep 12, 2006 - 10:16 pm 34. tjl:

Don’t lose hope. There are many others on the path you have taken. It’s never easy to reexamine the assumptions and beliefs of a lifetime. Over the past 5 years some have looked at events and concluded that they have no choice — others find it easier to shield themselves within their old liberal cocoon and say there is no need for anything to change.

For those who took the hard road, your writing has been a reminder that common sense and humane values are the best response to what we face. Especially when reading posts by people like markg6 who think they’ve actually said something incisive when they call you a putz.

Sep 13, 2006 - 11:38 am 35. ElMondo:

Ah, the self-important voice of “dissent”, believing his opinion is so extraordinary that owners of personal forums are obligated to give it space regardless of their own appraisal of it.

Kos and DU are perfect forums for that sort of self-inflated opinion of onesself. Perhaps markg8 should go there instead.

Sep 14, 2006 - 7:05 am

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