60 Comments

1. balzar:

This approach seems deliberately provocative and counter productive. The world needs more tolerance, yes, you can do it, the real question I think is, should you. The money you are proposing to spend on this could probably be put to better use. (rebuilding New Orleans comes to mind)

Dec 12, 2006 - 1:15 pm 2. Roger:

Balzar… I am kidding around. But don’t let that bother you. (Of course I know we’re not going to do something like that – just making a point.)

Dec 12, 2006 - 1:37 pm 3. Plainslow:

I realize you were just kidding Roger. But I find it interesting that you had a commentor call your idea deliberately provocative, but makes no mention of what Iran is doing.

Dec 12, 2006 - 1:47 pm 4. Roger:

I found that interesting too.

Dec 12, 2006 - 1:48 pm 5. LarryD:

Balzar, can one afford to be tolerant of the militantly intolerant?

The Islamic radicals (or what ever you wish to call them) are provoked by our very existence. They keep saying and writing that all the time. Of course, it is ever so much more comfortable to ignore that, problem is, it’ll get you killed.

Dec 12, 2006 - 1:48 pm 6. ricpic:

Yeah, let’s turn to psychiatrists at this moment of eminent peril. They’ll save us. Just label the killers insane. Presto, they’ll be gone in a puff of smoke; dematerialized by our very own witch doctors.
Yes, I realize it was proposed in jest, but the mindset behind the jest: they can’t be sane – those death cult mullahs – they must be insane: that’s the mindset that has gotten us into the present mess.

Dec 12, 2006 - 2:30 pm 7. gfinoaktown:

Yes, provocative indeed. Maybe someone should try to publish some stick-figure drawings of Islam’s purported prophet and see what happens. Or perhaps arrange a conference on a variety of religious topics:

Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same god?

Did the alleged prophet of Islam, Mohamet, really exist?

Has Islam spread through violence or persuasion?

Was the behavior of Islam’s alleged prophet of Islam, Mohamet, normative for his times? Or was his behavior vis-a-vis women, children, and non-Muslims deviant?

Don’t want to be too provocative, but you get the idea.

Dec 12, 2006 - 2:35 pm 8. Luther McLeod:

Balzar, is this Iranian president says Israel’s days are numbered not “provocative.” I mean really, give me a break.

Dec 12, 2006 - 3:08 pm 9. Rhod:

Balzar, you overlooked “inappropriate”. It covers everything from serial killing to infant cannibalism to ironies about holocaust denial.

Dec 12, 2006 - 3:19 pm 10. Roger:

Obviously, ricpic is not a fan of The Sanity Squad.

Dec 12, 2006 - 3:29 pm 11. promoguy:

Come on guys, let’s not wuss out here. I think it’s a great idea. Damn good fun and maybe CAIR will protest. We call the meeting based on Roger’s idea and rent a convention room at some hotel. But instead of speakers, all it will consist of is a continental breakfast and a bunch of guys yapping. The guys in the know will share bagels and cream cheese and the guys outside well, they can scream.

I’m in.

Dec 12, 2006 - 3:30 pm 12. gfinoaktown:

Yes, I’m with promoguy. From a comment thread on JihadWatch:

I suggest that Israel hold an international conference on whether the Koran was inspired by God or made up by Muhammad, and on whether Muhammad was a prophet or a highway robber and child molester.

We have the right to know, donít we?’

That’s an excellent idea! It wouldn’t matter where it’s done, just as long as there’s enough media there to let the Islamo-fascist folk know what’s going on, and what we’re saying.

Note that our response to the “holocaust hoax” balderdash is that of sensible people calling it “balderdash.” Should we have an International Conferenece on the Reliability of the Quran and its Author (the so-called “prophet” Muhammad), the cries for infidel blood would be heard from one end of the earth to the next.

Dec 12, 2006 - 3:56 pm 13. Eric Akawie:

Laurence Simon had a similar idea.

Dec 12, 2006 - 4:09 pm 14. Eric Akawie:

Link broken. Try again.

Dec 12, 2006 - 4:10 pm 15. michael:

Among the topics to be discussed would be when the Israeli Air Force will be falsely charged wth blowing up Iran’s nuclear production facilities and various other mythical activities surrounding this mythically to be experienced event.

Dec 12, 2006 - 4:57 pm 16. Carl Spackler:

The 12th Imam exists and is a personal friend of mine (or I’d like him to think so). I used to let him use my garage and tools to work on his surfboards. Unfortunately he is in a adolescent rehab in Orange County for alcohol and marijuana abuse. Heís a good kid. His parents are both doctors and nice people too, and worried sick. I think he’ll be all right, but no way is he going the Iman route.

Dec 12, 2006 - 5:46 pm 17. Godzilla:

This approach seems deliberately provocative and counter productive. The world needs more tolerance…

Sure, that’s just what we need, to show more tolerance toward a holocaust denying madman that wants to destroy Israel.

Where the hell do these people come from?

Dec 12, 2006 - 5:50 pm 18. onecent:

I’m a practicing member of The Sanity Squad and ricpic has nailed it, skip the psychiatrists.

There would be less nuance if we convened a panel of the most endearing of cynics and myth busters, our own homegrown teenagers. Just ask them what’s stupid about the whole Mohammed cult and its core practices and myths. Syndicate it and we are set to go.

Dec 12, 2006 - 6:24 pm 19. Sissy Willis:

Get Dr. Sanity on the line.

Dec 12, 2006 - 6:24 pm 20. Sissy Willis:

Get Dr. Sanity on the line.

Dec 12, 2006 - 6:25 pm 21. Terrye:

It is interesting that just about the time Clinton says he would talk to Iran the mullahs start raving again. I don’t think most Americans want to talk to Iran, they want to pretend there is no such place.

That is the effect the hopelessly crazy have on people. I remember many years ago a friend of mine took a self defence class. The instructor told her that if she were attacked she should begin barking like a dog, because everyone is afraid of crazy people and want nothing to do with them.

Dec 12, 2006 - 8:10 pm 22. Barry Dauphin:

Of course, when Christopher Hitchens was in Iran, he heard a number of Iranian cab drivers wonder if George W. Bush might be the 12th imam.

Poor old Ahmadinejad gets no face time from the MSM when he says things like this, only when he criticizes Bushitler at the U.N. What’s a dictator got to do to get a little press these days? Geez, with Pinochet out of the picture, there should be some room in the schedule to work him in.

Dec 12, 2006 - 8:11 pm 23. heather:

OT, but: Roger, what is happening with that Iranian family stuck in the Russian airport? Are you going to update us on this, or is everything hush hush, or have they been dragged back to Iran??

Dec 12, 2006 - 10:28 pm 24. Dick Stanley:

Wonderful idea. A symposium we all can identify with, and I have just the venue: the Holiday Bowl on Dec. 28. Is the 12th Imam a genuine religious figure? Or has a tragic misspelling been involved here all along? Could the 12th Imam merely be the misinterpreted 12th Man of Texas A&M University football? Will the 12th Imam (12th Man?) make an appearance at the 50 yard line at halftime in San Diego? Will he be appropriately suited up in maroon, or are his followers just maroons? Watch the game and find out!

Dec 12, 2006 - 10:46 pm 25. Pierre Legrand:

The 12th Imam “he ain’t heavy he’s my brother”…

Now Roger lets stop with the deliberate provocations of the worlds most sensitive religion…we might hurt their feelings.

Dec 12, 2006 - 10:55 pm 26. Rhod:

My money is on Count Twelve. “Sesame” might be Greek, but possibily Assyrian or Arabic too. It’ll all come out soon.

Dec 13, 2006 - 4:42 am 27. Lem:

Introduce a resolution at the UN to keep Iran out of the upcoming Olympics until they officially retract their president’s pronouncements questioning the Holocaust.

Have the Germans introduce it.

Dec 13, 2006 - 5:42 am 28. Lem:

Soccer maybe Iran’s Achilles heel. Even if it doesn’t go anywhere, we’ll have something to kick around.

Dec 13, 2006 - 5:57 am 29. dclydew:

I’m in, I also recommend we hold a conference on the existence of Jesus and the likelihood of his return. In fact, why don’t we start a conference that examines every one of the harebrained religions that have (over the past several thousand years) believed that their holy *insert person here* is gonna come back and make everything in the world just like they want it.

The sooner we can get rid of all the crazy ideas about invisible people and their magic… the better off we, as a planet, will probably be.

Dec 13, 2006 - 6:46 am 30. Pierre Legrand:

The sooner we can get rid of all the crazy ideas about invisible people and their magic… the better off we, as a planet, will probably be.

We as a planet? You mean all of us have to believe the same thing so that we can all be happy?

Is it too judgmental of me to merely wish that a certain religion stop sanctioning death squads of their young running various speeding objects into tall buildings?

After we stop them from that quaint belief can we stop them from acting out sexual fantasies of various numbers of virgins being moved to sexual lust by explosive events?

Certainly if someone were to be serious about getting “rid” of my belief in “invisible” people I might be moved to fear them just as much as these flying young men in their hijacked trapezes.

That live and let live principle in our civilization is being tested severely by maniacs. Lets not add to the woe by joining them.

Dec 13, 2006 - 6:58 am 31. dclydew:

Pierre,

I certainly would never force anyone to believe or not believe in something.

However, I do think that if most religious beliefs were to be examined (as Roger suggested we do with the Islamic folk) then they would all fail to deliver any evidence or proof. Now, that being said, I doubt that any fervent believer in Islam, Christianity or whatever will allow a lack of evidence to dissuade their faith.

For over a thousand years people used the Christian belief system to manipulate their followers to kill the enemy or the heretic (or win some political position). For a slightly shorter period of time, the Muslims have done the same. Fortunately, most Christians currently aren’t violent, nor are they being persuaded to kill others for disbelief… at least not in the US or most Western societies. It may be acceptable to simply get the Muslim madness to a low simmer as Christians seem to have done.

Or, we as a species may need to recognize the difference between ideas and facts, be they ideas like the 12th Imam, ideas like the Rapture or ideas like Evolution. When someone says “Go die for this idea that may or may not be true”, they’ll likely get fewer volunteers. When someone preaches that Abortion may or may not be ok with God, then there’s less likely to be some crazy person with a Gun trying to take out Doctors.

Dec 13, 2006 - 8:28 am 32. Always right:

I will comment on Balzar’s post from another angle.

Balzar objected how Roger (and us, I guess) is going to “waste” our own money on this proposal. I don’t recall Roger propose to use “government funding” to arrange for this conference. Now he (she) is going to tell us to “waste” the money on the poor Katrina victims.

Well, the so-called Katrina victims have 18 months to get their feet on the ground to start over. Those who won’t help themselves do not deserve on getting the “charaties” of good-hearted people. Balzar thinks the PEOPLE (or better yet, the Government) should just keep on giving to the victims just enough to keep them in the victimhood indefinitely.

Dec 13, 2006 - 8:36 am 33. Terrye:

Well I don’t think Roger is talking about Islamic people in general, but the mad mullahs and their holocaust denial in partcular.

Christains have their beliefs questioned all the time, it is nothing new. I can not remember the last time Buddhists went bezerk because their faith was questioned. In fact I would say that communism replaced religion for many people and the effects were even more deadly.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to question the Crusades. Did they happen at all or were they just Christian knights protecting Chistendom from the barbarian hordes? Now that would get them going.

Dec 13, 2006 - 8:57 am 34. dclydew:

n fact I would say that communism replaced religion for many people and the effects were even more deadly.

I would say the effects were equally deadly.

This fits in with my point. Any ‘belief’ that is held to be absolutely TRUE, be it religious, philosophical or political can lead to horrific consequences.

Jesus, surely if he existed, would never have condoned war in his name. Yet, some people, including various Popes, Pastors, Preachers, Reverends and Fathers, have used the ‘belief’ held by their flock and their trust in the Church, to do all sorts of dastardly things. The people meekly accepted these acts of horror, because they had FAITH. Just as Germans accepted Hitler’s insane ideas, or Russians permitted Stalins mass murdering sprees.

The problem isn’t the ‘ideas’ espoused by a religion or a political party, rather its the dogmatic fervor that grips a True Believer of that system.

“When Dogmatic Belief enters the brain, all rational thought leaves.” – RAW

Dec 13, 2006 - 9:36 am 35. cubanbob:

The one core lesson the holocaust has taught Jews is that when a man with a gun states he is going to kill you, no matter how crazy he may be, believe him. If Israel doesn’t have the bomb, get busy now. If she does, them get busy building very powerful hydrogen bombs. 20 megatons is a good start.

A quiet conversation with a few key Iranian Army officers with a map outlining the death and destruction radius of such a large weapon along with the target list of Iranian cities would make for a sobering conversation and perhaps a lot more.

Roger as for the holocaust deniers as the great director Billy Wilder said regarding that subject ” then tell me where my mother is”.

Dec 13, 2006 - 9:38 am 36. Horatio:

Turnabout is fair, but in this case also pointless. Sure we could waste our time playing childish games, but other than to satisfy some emotional need to “get back at them,” why would we do it?

Dec 13, 2006 - 10:07 am 37. ElMondo:

As odd as this is to me, I actually agree with Balzar’s tactic, even though I disagree with the reasons behind it (tolerance towards the intolerant, such as the holocost deniers taking part in that meeting, will never be repaid in kind. So there’s no reason to be anything but honestly antagonistic towards them. Plus, the money spent on a conference would be a drop in the bucket for New Orleans repair; that’s just as sensical as saying “The money spent on the Super Bowl would be put to better use rebuilding New Orleans”).

In my case, the last thing I’d want to do is dignify their “conference” with even the tiniest bit of acknowledgement that a “conference” confers legitimacy. You see, holding a “conference” (man, I’m dropping the scare quotes from here on out; just assume they’re there) is an attempt at conferring an aura of actual debate and academic rigor to their ridiculous get together. This is no more legitimate than holding a conference on the sanctity of murder or child molesting; the fact that there’s a conference doesn’t make any conclusions drawn by them correct. Yet, throwing a counter-conference simply diminishes the idea of truly academic, knowledge-seeking events, and also lowers us to their level (We mock you with our own conference!). I think it’s better to not throw a conference because it’s the ultimate dis: Oh. Okay… You can have your little play conference, and you can pretend all you want that you’re getting somewhere, but we know the truth, and no conference by you folks is ever going to change that.

And I’d say that as condescendingly as possible. There’s no irony in that statement, there’s nothing but truth, so why not indulge in some rightful condescension? They’ve earned it.

Anyway… This is my stance: No conference in the world changes the truth, and their meager attempts at intellectual progress are akin to children holding a tea party. The teapot and cups are empty, and there are just mindless dolls sitting in the chairs. So, why ape them? Let them play at gaining knowledge. Nod and smile. And let them embarrass themselves. Everyone else will know the truth, and no one outside of those who already ignore said truth’s going to take them seriously.

Yes, Roger, I knew you were joking… but since others have responded in that vein, I thought I’d throw in my own 2 cents worth.

Dec 13, 2006 - 10:12 am 38. Lem:

I know what we can do. Drop those offensive Christmas trees all over Iran. Take all the offensive trees and nativity scenes from all our Towns Squares (including Rockefeller’s) and send them to Ahmadinejad.

We would kill two camels; appease our dear dendrophobist Americans while at the same time introduce the lighting of something…. well, a little different

Dec 13, 2006 - 10:39 am 39. Lem:

BTW, “killing two camels” was aa atempt at a smoking metaphor. It was in no way a reflection of any enmity towards our ruminant friends.

Dec 13, 2006 - 10:57 am 40. mojo:

“Muhammad: Last Prophet or Paranoid Schizophrenic?
A Psychiatric View”

Dec 13, 2006 - 12:13 pm 41. Barbara Skolaut:

Kidding, hell.

If I had the money I’d sponsor it – if for no other reason than to see whose panties wadded up.

Dec 13, 2006 - 12:19 pm 42. Barbara Skolaut:

Kidding, hell.

If I had the money I’d sponsor it – if for no other reason than to see whose panties wadded up.

Dec 13, 2006 - 12:20 pm 43. Barbara Skolaut:

Kidding, hell.

If I had the money I’d sponsor it – if for no other reason than to see whose panties wadded up.

Dec 13, 2006 - 12:20 pm 44. Barbara Skolaut:

Apologies for the multiple posting, Roger. I kept getting a “debug” message and thought it hadn’t posted. Please delete the extras.

Dec 13, 2006 - 12:21 pm 45. Steven Mitchell:

“The problem isn’t the ‘ideas’ espoused by a religion or a political party, rather its the dogmatic fervor that grips a True Believer of that system. ”

Dogma is, at heart, nothing more than “settled belief” in a given system. The problem with the fanatic is not belief in dogma, but the refusal to recognize which beliefs are dogma, which are emperical, and which are logical derivations of the previous two. And *that* recognition is the defense, and the reason why dogma can and does coexist quite happily alongside rational thought in most believers–ill-considered slurs that reek of the typical simplistic freshmen BS sessions to the contrary.

Note that this patterns holds up in far more aspects of human lives than religion and politics. It’s particularly noted in the kind of academic people that routinely pursue nonsense that would largely make such a conference on Christianity redundant.

Rather than wasting money on conferences, I suggest a nation-wide program of remedial philosophy. Learning the differences between “logical thought” and “empirical facts” would have lots of uses.

Dec 13, 2006 - 1:42 pm 46. Lem:

Forget the conference, forget remedial history, math and philosophy.

Lets bring back midnight basketball.

http://www.dankphotos.com/harlem/index.shtml

Dec 13, 2006 - 2:07 pm 47. Lem:

Come to think of it the Iraq Study Group never hit the lanes, or at least, it was not reported.

Maybe that’s why they were received so poorly.

Dec 13, 2006 - 2:16 pm 48. Buddy Larsen:

“Baathsketball”?

Dec 13, 2006 - 2:33 pm 49. Buddy Larsen:

Itís interesting: if the Holocaust ìconferenceî decides that the Holocaust didnít happen, well, then the justification for Israel is specious and founded on lies, and the mullahs are justified in redressing a mistake. I have the awful feeling that terms, conditions and justifications are being set right before our eyes, and the putative leaders seem unwilling to acknowledge what most canny observers infer.

Itíll all make horrible sense. In retrospect.

Lileks

Dec 13, 2006 - 2:38 pm 50. Pierre Legrand:

Sorry but the idea that there is some sort of moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam is laughable.

Where the two religions start from are opposites. The founders of both religions could not be farther apart in philosophy and example. I don’t say this to defend Christianity as either you accept it has I have or you don’t. But it is important to understand that Islam is not just another Christianity going through growing pains. At its core it is a radically different philosophy whose found sanctioned violence to further its growth. Indeed he even gave his followers plenty of examples of his determination to expand its reach by the sword.

Finally it would be very worth your while to become a bit more educated on the Crusades and Inquisition. The similarities between our fight against the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq and Spain’s fight are uncanny.

There are plenty of books coming out these days that go through the nightmares of the war between the west and islam. There really is no excuse for accepting the common propaganda from the masters in Islam. Surely there were horrors aplenty during that time but when you are being attacked from the West and East at the same time as were the fragmented Europeans we might be a bit more hesitant in attacking their methods. Without a doubt war is hell and plenty of innocents died…such is war.

The 14th worldwide meltdown of Muslims caused by Pope

Dec 13, 2006 - 3:12 pm 51. Pierre Legrand:

And geez I forgot to mention that while religions have gone wrong and caused the deaths of millions. Secularists have the record…and like the Communists they always have an excuse.

Dec 13, 2006 - 3:14 pm 52. Steven Mitchell:

“Secularists have the record…and like the Communists they always have an excuse.”

Yeah, and the excuse is always the same: They aren’t following a religion; ergo they are acting from pristine motives rather than irrational dogma… Thus my remedial education suggestion above.

Dec 13, 2006 - 3:19 pm 53. Jambon Porkov:

How about a limerick challenge? Here’s mine:

Exploding Islamic extremists
Are merely the lowest and meanest
Of jivers and shuckers
And low-down fig-pluckers
Who snip off the tip of their penis.

Now, beat that with a barrage of your own.

Dec 13, 2006 - 6:12 pm 54. Jambon Porkov:

How about a limerick challenge? Here’s mine:

Exploding Islamic extremists
Are merely the lowest and meanest
Of jivers and shuckers
And low-down fig-pluckers
Who snip off the tip of their penis.

Now, beat that with a barrage of your own.

Dec 13, 2006 - 6:12 pm 55. Buddy Larsen:

whenever an erstwhile jihadi
lays eyes on a cute western hottie
his thoughts are so grim
that on any whim
he’ll take off her head from her body

Dec 13, 2006 - 7:44 pm 56. Buddy Larsen:

excellent blog, pierre–thanks–

Dec 13, 2006 - 7:59 pm 57. James Wolf:

This proposal is deliberately provocative. And I would love to see it happen. Your average Muslim fanatic is more sensitive than the big toe of a gout sufferer that’s been scraped with sandpaper and covered in lemon juice. I would dearly love to see these chuckleheads scream. It’s not as if they could protest to the Israeli government, since most of their failed states don’t have diplomatic relationships. They’re on perennial seethe and maybe a few thousand will die in the inevitable riots.

Dec 13, 2006 - 9:33 pm 58. Daniel in Brookline:

Personally, I’m with being provocative for the sake of being provocative. These are the people who riot over cartoons, for goodness’ sake… if they can’t take it, they shouldn’t dish it out.

If people are offended — Westerners, I mean — at the thought of a symposium on Mohammed, fine. There are many other topics we can use –

“Ahmadinejad: Is he really only five feet tall? Or is he really 4′8″ without his platform shoes?”

“Israel supposedly had nuclear weapons in the late sixties. Even Saddam almost had them in 1981. Why is Iran still working on them, and does that qualify them as the Most Backward Nuclear Scientists in the World?”

“On Saber-Rattling: Iran fought Saddam’s Iraq to a standstill, although it took them eight years. America toppled Saddam’s regime in a matter of weeks. Compare & contrast.”

Heck, maybe we should have a weekly symposium of this sort, each week on a different topic. And, like Promoguy suggested, we don’t have to talk about anything; make it a get-together over bagels and cream cheese, and let President I’m-A-Dinner-Jacket just wonder what’s being discussed.

Let’s remind him who truly believes in open discussions, and who really is humor deprived… shall we?

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline

Dec 14, 2006 - 10:24 am 59. ray_g:

I don’t know about a conference, but I think it would make a great Public Access TV show.

Dec 14, 2006 - 11:12 am 60. Pooh:

I agree with balzar. Roger was being incredibly provocative. We Jews never seem to learn. Firstly, we boycotted Hitler’s Germany simply because of the innocuous Nuremberg Laws which in turn brought down the Holocaust on our heads, and now, decades later, Roger L. Simon comes up with this outrageous plan. If Iran does nuke Israel there is little question that a large part of the responsibility will rest on Roger’s shoulders.

Why we Jews can’t just learn to get along with eminently reasonable men like Hitler and Ahmadinejad I will never know. Yes, their ideas might seem a little extreme and even a tad offensive to some people, but we Jews should learn to roll with the punches. No more boycotts. No more retaliation. Just love and understanding.

(A note to the crazies: no, I’m not being serious)

Dec 14, 2006 - 1:17 pm

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