28 Comments

1. ricpic:

Would that we were a nation consumed by fear of Muslims and Mexicans. For different reasons to be sure. But for valid reasons in both cases.
Obvious in the case of Muslims.
Just as obvious in the case of Mexicans if we could just get past the knee jerk, ooh you dirty racist, response. The importation of a huge cohort of people who are culturally radically different than Americans and have shown zero inclination to assimilate for what? three generations? five? is a bad thing for our future as a coherent nation.

Jun 3, 2007 - 9:01 am 2. Roger:

Dead on wrong, ricpic. You obviously don’t know very many MExicans. I know tons, living in Los Angeles. You are - to be blunt - full of it.

Jun 3, 2007 - 9:31 am 3. ricpic:

Best not to think about the pre-eminence of La Raza among Mexican-American organizations in the United States, eh Roger?

Jun 3, 2007 - 10:21 am 4. Roger:

La Raza noisy? Sure. Preeminent? Not a chance.

Jun 3, 2007 - 11:03 am 5. Sandy P:

Roger, out here in flyover country, I’m getting the impression the hispanic/black race war is starting.

Any thoughts?

Jun 3, 2007 - 11:12 am 6. Charlie (Colorado):

Ricpic, I was born in a town named Alamosa, went to high school in a town named Pueblo; Roger lives in the neighborhood of Los Angeles, Santa Monica, Santa Ana, San Ysidro, and Santa Barbara. The border towns people wonder about are Laredo, San Antonio, San Diego, Nogales, and Tucson — among others. Five generations ago, the only people in Colorado were Spanish-speakers, and Indians. And out here we all eat tacos and enchiladas, tortillas and chilequiles, just as often as we eat frankfurters and hamburgers and pastrami and spaghetti.

In other words, hispanics are assimilated, pendejo. Mexican culture is part of American culture, just like Germans and Italians and Vietnamese and Irish and Poles.

What you’re asking for is that they “assimilate” by adopting what you think of as “American” culture — which, depending on where you live, is largely Irish, German, Polish, Scandinavian or British anyway.

Jun 3, 2007 - 11:53 am 7. Michael J. Totten:

ricpic,

My father married a women whose parents immigrated from Mexico. (Not my mother, she is his second wife.) She is a lawyer and a lobbyist and I speak better Spanish than she does.

Roger was being polite when he merely said you are full of it.

Jun 3, 2007 - 12:11 pm 8. Terrye:

So no one with an ez on the end of his or her name is assimilated? And all Mexican Americans are part of LaRaza? Well then we have a lot of cops and soldiers out there who are not real Americans.

JLo? I think I read she was born in Brooklyn, but then they are all alike aren’t they?

And Charlie, let us not forget San Bernadino San Jaun, Escondido, Santa Cruz just to name a few places with Spanish sounding names. Then there is the state of New Mexico {not New Ireland}, and in Texas there is Corpus Christi, ElPaso, San Antonio and the list goes on.

No, I have to admit when I think of people planning to blow up a major airport and kill a bunch of people Mexicans do not come to mind.

Jun 3, 2007 - 2:40 pm 9. Coisty:

Roger: And if there is any real worry about Mexicans, it is because of Muslims.

Mexicans are a far greater threat to the US than Muslims. They certainly kill more Americans each year than Muslims. They also have, in their view, legitimate claims to US territory. Demography matters.

Roger:Dead on wrong, ricpic. You obviously don’t know very many MExicans. I know tons, living in Los Angeles. You are - to be blunt - full of it

I’ve known quite a few Palestinians and other Muslims and most were fine people and no threat. Not that that is any more relevant than some rich guy from Hollywood saying he’s known lots of decent Mexicans and therefore they are no threat.

Terrye:And Charlie, let us not forget San Bernadino San Jaun, Escondido, Santa Cruz just to name a few places with Spanish sounding names.

And who built those places and made them part of the modern world? They weren’t Mexicans.

Terrye:Then there is the state of New Mexico {not New Ireland},

How’s the most Hispanic state in the union doing Terrye?

Despite being so Hispanic and a part of the US for well over a century the Hispanics of New Mexico still haven’t become the integrated new Italians Michael Barone’s increasingly laughable fantasies.

Strange how the most recent Mexican invaders generally bypass NM. Could it be because the most Hispanic state is struggling to keep up with the rest of America? White middle class people have been leaving California for a decade and a half for a reason. So goes CA so goes the so-called nation.

Terrye, if you love Mexicans more than Americans why don’t you move there and experience the joys of living in a society built by Latin Americans? Your visceral hatred for the real USA is greater than that of any leftist European or Canadian I’ve ever met.

Jun 3, 2007 - 5:07 pm 10. gk:

Yeah, I got the same feeling reading Fareed Zakaria as Roger, whotta phony. I seriously doubt he had many good things to say about Reagan circa 1985 and think he is missing the boat with Bush as well. I have pretty much not bothered with reading Fareed anymore as I find his eurocentric view of the world obsolete and increasingly irrelevant. I would love to read an article of his which didn’t have the default position: “America is being Stupid” and “The Nuanced Euros have it right as always”

Jun 3, 2007 - 9:26 pm 11. Patrick Tyson:

How could you, living in India, end up a Reaganite?

Here’s an article on Fareed Zakaria. There’s a clarification on page 3.

I’m not afraid of Muslims or Mexicans. I am afraid of sociopaths. It’d be nice if they were easier to spot and to do something about.

Jun 4, 2007 - 12:25 am 12. Terrye:

Well Coisty, I am actually kind of afraid what will be me sneaking in from Canada. They invite just about anybody in up there and that border is just as open, in fact more so than the one with Mexico.

Jun 4, 2007 - 2:37 am 13. Charlie (Colorado):

Your visceral hatred for the real USA is greater than that of any leftist European or Canadian I’ve ever met.

Coisty, I would recommend you never, never ever, say something like that to my face. Whether about Terrye or about me.

New Mexico, by the way, has about a 3.6 percent unemployment rate and is doing quite nicely thank you very much.

Jun 4, 2007 - 9:25 am 14. dclydew:

I love it when realities collide. The very thing that Roger wrote this comment about “No, Fareed. We are not worried about Muslims and Mexicans. We are worried about Muslims.” Is deflated at the first comment and destroyed by the next few. Fareed, it appears, was right (at least) about some Americans. It does indeed appear that people like ricpic, Coisty and others that share their perception of reality, fear the Mexicans almost as much (if not more) than they fear the Muslims.

So we might say that some Americans fear ALL Muslims, some Americans fear ALL Mexicans, some Americans fear ALL Immigrants. Some Americans fear only extremist Muslims, Some Americans fear only illegal immigrants. Some Americans don’t fear either group and consider the whole thing as reactionary. Yet, each set of Americans seem to think that their view is the ONLY American view.

Consider the vehemency with which Coisty and ricpic defend their position…with the same slurs and rhetoric that others use when defending their “Fear the Muslims” position. Look for example, at the response by Coisty to Terrye:

“Terrye, if you love Mexicans more than Americans why don’t you move there and experience the joys of living in a society built by Latin Americans? Your visceral hatred for the real USA is greater than that of any leftist European or Canadian I’ve ever met.”

I’ve seen this same argument levied at people who are opposed to the Iraq War, or to Bush’s handling of the War on Terror. Yet, to me, it appears that it’s people like Coisty who love something more than Americans. That is, Coisty loves Coisty’s interpretation of reality more than Coisty loves Americans (like Terrye), it appears that Coisty, not Terrye has a visceral hatred of America (unless its America as interpreted by Coisty). This is the same mentality that has split our country in two and it looks as pathetic and idiotic when being used against George Clooney as it does being used against Terrye here. I mean Coisty’s argument has no basis in reality, but rather in the dogmatic acceptance of a single position as the ONLY correct, American position. Either people agree with Coisty’s view of Mexicans, or they must obviously Hate America and Americans.

I don’t fear Mexicans, I fear the dogmatic people that think our way of life will end because of a new immigrant group (we see this same sick pattern repeated several times throughout American history, notably with the Know Nothings, so Coisty and ricpic are joining up with a noble group of Americans who have embarrassed the rest of us for generations). I don’t fear Muslims. I fear the dogmatic psychology of Muslim extremists. I don’t even fear Liberals or Conservatives, I fear the dogmatic mindset of any group that thinks that they have all the right answers and the “OTHERS” are not only WRONG, but evil and hate America to boot.

Jun 4, 2007 - 10:23 am 15. Mishu:

>So goes CA so goes the so-called nation.

There are plenty of people in the Mid-West would resent that assertion. Some of them are of Mexican descent too.

Jun 4, 2007 - 11:50 am 16. Mike K:

Interesting to see the lack of facts doesn’t stop anybody from arguing. I’ve been treating illegal aliens, 90% from Mexico, for 30 years. There are two groups within this demographic. There was an older group who establishd familes and worked hard, like the parents of my best friend in medical school. His mother never learned English and had ten kids but all but one earned college degrees. Now I see a large group who are young and single and send their money back to Mexico (A big reason why Mexican politicians oppose any attempt to stop the immigration). They drink too much and get into car crashes. They commit other crimes. They have no education and are illiterate in Spanish. They have no skills and are filing thousands of workmans compensation claims. Many are unable to work by 35 and have no skills for vocational rehab. They subsist on disability. If legalized, they will file for SSI. And there are thousands of them.

We need legal immigrants. All over the world are people with skills and education who would love to live here. They cannot negotiate the incompetent bureaucracy of our INS, or whatever they are calling it this week. We are winking at a flood of poorly educated people entering illegally who are already a burden on health and education facilities. Los Angeles will soon resemble Rio De Janiero or Mexico City with the vast inequalities of poverty and privilege. Canada was bequeathed the Quebec problem by its history. We are importing our own separatist problem. It is a slowly developing disaster,

Jun 4, 2007 - 1:52 pm 17. Mike K:

Interesting to see the lack of facts doesn’t stop anybody from arguing. I’ve been treating illegal aliens, 90% from Mexico, for 30 years. There are two groups within this demographic. There was an older group who establishd familes and worked hard, like the parents of my best friend in medical school. His mother never learned English and had ten kids but all but one earned college degrees. Now I see a large group who are young and single and send their money back to Mexico (A big reason why Mexican politicians oppose any attempt to stop the immigration). They drink too much and get into car crashes. They commit other crimes. They have no education and are illiterate in Spanish. They have no skills and are filing thousands of workmans compensation claims. Many are unable to work by 35 and have no skills for vocational rehab. They subsist on disability. If legalized, they will file for SSI. And there are thousands of them.

We need legal immigrants. All over the world are people with skills and education who would love to live here. They cannot negotiate the incompetent bureaucracy of our INS, or whatever they are calling it this week. We are winking at a flood of poorly educated people entering illegally who are already a burden on health and education facilities. Los Angeles will soon resemble Rio De Janiero or Mexico City with the vast inequalities of poverty and privilege. Canada was bequeathed the Quebec problem by its history. We are importing our own separatist problem. It is a slowly developing disaster,

Jun 4, 2007 - 1:55 pm 18. stumbley:

Folks, I was born and bred in New Mexico and now live in California. I have no fear of Mexicans, per se, but I do believe in securing the borders and enforcing immigration law. We suffer here in California from indigent illegals availing themselves of free emergency room care (for simple illnesses) at taxpayer expense, we have people working by using stolen Social Security numbers (which hurts the legitimate recipients), and most of the criminals in our local jails are illegal immigrants. So, do I “fear” Mexicans? No. Am I a racist for wanting people to immigrate to this country legally? No. Do I want this country to have a sensible and equitable immigration policy? Yes.

If that makes me “full of it” then I’m ready to burst, I guess…

Jun 4, 2007 - 3:13 pm 19. Renzo:

First read this speech by a former Democratic Governor of Colorado…

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp

Then post…

Jun 4, 2007 - 3:32 pm 20. Frederick:

“Beyond Bush: What the world needs is an open, confident America.”

The world needs a lot of things, but Newsweek isn’t one of them. ‘Read it every week for the latest predictions and prescriptions, helpfully illustrated by last week’s most important news. You’ll get insights of unfathomable depth carefully presented by the most informed, best-connected writers so that someone like you can understand the issues that everyone will be talking about from Edgartown to Georgetown. Don’t be at a loss for the right cliche at your next social function, or feel out of place because you didn’t get reminded about the plot details of the unfolding narrative. You don’t want to have people calling you a George Bush. This way to the egress. See you next week. And remember not to confuse yourself by reading old issues.’ It’s hard to believe that I once had subscriptions to some of these hokey cliche-delivery platforms. That was another world, the one Zakaria still thinks he lives in.

Jun 4, 2007 - 5:16 pm 21. Charlie (Colorado):

I don’t fear Mexicans, I fear the dogmatic people that think our way of life will end because of a new immigrant group (we see this same sick pattern repeated several times throughout American history, notably with the Know Nothings, so Coisty and ricpic are joining up with a noble group of Americans who have embarrassed the rest of us for generations). I don’t fear Muslims. I fear the dogmatic psychology of Muslim extremists. I don’t even fear Liberals or Conservatives, I fear the dogmatic mindset of any group that thinks that they have all the right answers and the “OTHERS” are not only WRONG, but evil and hate America to boot.

What he said.

Jun 4, 2007 - 8:09 pm 22. Foobarista:

For my part, I don’t mind immigration generally, but what I don’t like is “illegalness” - that is, having a very large sector of our economy in “the shadows”, with no laws, regulations, etc.

What’s really going on with illegal immigration, in my opinion, is that there is an employment sector where government taxes and regulation is expensive enough that employers choose to ignore it and hire workers off the books so they can profitably operate businesses. And they’re forced to do so or the market will shut down their businesses since the market price for their goods and services is driven by the producers with the lowest costs. Since employers are far more afraid of business competition than government enforcement, anything that doesn’t address the market realities, or tries to “legalize” this economy by imposing its regulations on it - such as “guest workers” - simply won’t work.

If you wanted to allow low-end employers to “legalize” things, you’d have to do the following:

1. Get rid of much workplace regulation, particularly expensive form-filing.

2. Redo workman’s comp so it isn’t specific to employers. Workman’s comp insurance is part of the reason many construction jobs are pretty much all-illegal nowadays.

3. Allow piecework pay and non-monetary compensation like room and board. Many illegals are paid at least partially in-kind, ie in the form of a cot in the back room, food, and a certain amount of cash per month, but this sort of pay approach is hard to do legally without stirring up a hornet’s nest of regulation, tax, and liability issues.

4. Abolish payroll withholding, and implement something like the “fair tax”. Taxation must be separate from payroll, or you’ll never address the fact that someone paying people off the books starts with a minimum of 15.7% advantage over someone who is paying them legally. The advantage rapidly shoots up to 30-40% if all payroll costs are included.

Jun 5, 2007 - 5:09 pm 23. Patrick:

“Folks, I was born and bred in New Mexico and now live in California. I have no fear of Mexicans, per se, but I do believe in securing the borders and enforcing immigration law.”

Bingo!

Why this nonsense of tying it to

Jun 5, 2007 - 6:30 pm 24. Charlie (Colorado):

Renzo, before you get too excited about anything Dick Lamm has to say, look for the stuff he wrote in the 70’s saying, for example, that by the 80’s single family homes would be illegal.

Jun 6, 2007 - 11:54 am 25. Always right:

I have to side with Coisty and Stumbly on this one. Roger, you have not present a meaningful counter argument, except that you live in a state with lots of Mexicans.

Jun 6, 2007 - 12:07 pm 26. KJ:

Charlie (Colorado)

If I may….

Sometimes people make statements that bely their intellect, for instance,
“Coisty, I would recommend you never, never ever, say something like that to my face. Whether about Terrye or about me.”

Presumably this means that you would attempt to inflict physical harm to the person.
School yard response………..unworthy of you.

Had I not been reading your post’s for a few years now, I might not suspect what an intelligent, insightful person I have discovered you to be.

With that in mind………..

I suspect that Renzo was trying to broaden the scope of the argument and did not take the time to do a background check of the orator. He may have been more focused on the message contained in the speech, which is at the very least, worthy of consideration.

With respect,

KJ

Jun 6, 2007 - 9:21 pm 27. KJ:

Excuse me …..belie

Jun 6, 2007 - 9:25 pm 28. otter:

All the more reason to decouple immigration and border security. The latter is crucial to our safety. Curtailing illegal immigration is a byproduct and shouldn’t be its purpose.

Jun 8, 2007 - 9:17 am

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