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	<title>Comments on: Why the Rinky Dink Antiwar Demonstrations</title>
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	<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/</link>
	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Mikey</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89800</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89800</guid>
		<description>&quot;Maybe if Ron Paul, not Cindy Sheehan, led the antiwar movement, more people would show up. His supporters sure don&#039;t suffer from ambivalence.&quot;

Maybe if more hunks and hotties showed up?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Maybe if Ron Paul, not Cindy Sheehan, led the antiwar movement, more people would show up. His supporters sure don&#8217;t suffer from ambivalence.&#8221;</p>
<p>Maybe if more hunks and hotties showed up?</p>
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		<title>By: Neo</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89799</link>
		<dc:creator>Neo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89799</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1772558920070917?feedType=RSS&amp;feedName=worldNews&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Reuters&lt;/a&gt; finally does something interesting, and nobody notices.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1772558920070917?feedType=RSS&amp;feedName=worldNews" rel="nofollow">Reuters</a> finally does something interesting, and nobody notices.</p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89798</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89798</guid>
		<description>&quot;Furthermore we don&#039;t have to exactly guess if the polls reflect people&#039;s real behavior. We have the 2006 election for that and they were a pretty decisive confirmation that voters were exactly as upset with the GOP as the polls indicated&quot;

Dan, you have noticed that this &#039;mandate&#039; seems, when push has come to shove in DC over the last nine months, to have diminished considerably?

What could account for this other than constituents who may&#039;ve voted against the GOP for any number of reasons (Foley, for some), but do not want their reps following the new Congressional leadership on the war. So much for 2006 having been a referendum on the war, by your own test, that is, the vote.

Nobody likes the war. But when constituents have had to finally face up to what will likely happen in the world if USA gets chased out of the mideast, the message they&#039;re sending their reps is clearly, obviously, not what you&#039;re implying it is.

Otherwise the legislators would certainly, surely, without doubt, have been reflecting it over these past nine months. Right?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Furthermore we don&#8217;t have to exactly guess if the polls reflect people&#8217;s real behavior. We have the 2006 election for that and they were a pretty decisive confirmation that voters were exactly as upset with the GOP as the polls indicated&#8221;</p>
<p>Dan, you have noticed that this &#8216;mandate&#8217; seems, when push has come to shove in DC over the last nine months, to have diminished considerably?</p>
<p>What could account for this other than constituents who may&#8217;ve voted against the GOP for any number of reasons (Foley, for some), but do not want their reps following the new Congressional leadership on the war. So much for 2006 having been a referendum on the war, by your own test, that is, the vote.</p>
<p>Nobody likes the war. But when constituents have had to finally face up to what will likely happen in the world if USA gets chased out of the mideast, the message they&#8217;re sending their reps is clearly, obviously, not what you&#8217;re implying it is.</p>
<p>Otherwise the legislators would certainly, surely, without doubt, have been reflecting it over these past nine months. Right?</p>
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		<title>By: rverdi</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89797</link>
		<dc:creator>rverdi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89797</guid>
		<description>Remember, there was primarily an anti-draft movement in the USA during Vietnam, not an anti-war movement.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember, there was primarily an anti-draft movement in the USA during Vietnam, not an anti-war movement.</p>
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		<title>By: Drooch</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89796</link>
		<dc:creator>Drooch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89796</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is another example of why Iraq is not Vietnam when filling the streets with demonstrators was a simple matter.&quot;

The key difference is that there was a draft then, there isn&#039;t now. If the draft existed today, the level of anti-war apathy would drop out of sight, and the streets would be full of protesters.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is another example of why Iraq is not Vietnam when filling the streets with demonstrators was a simple matter.&#8221;</p>
<p>The key difference is that there was a draft then, there isn&#8217;t now. If the draft existed today, the level of anti-war apathy would drop out of sight, and the streets would be full of protesters.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Panorama</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89795</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Panorama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89795</guid>
		<description>Dust Bunny -

I&#039;m not sure I understand the argument. I think the questions are simple enough and asked by enough polling outfits to provide at least some reasonable idea of people&#039;s opinions. Especially when there are more specific polls asking when troops should withdrawal or if more troops should be added -- Bush&#039;s policies still fare terribly in those as well.

Furthermore we don&#039;t have to exactly guess if the polls reflect people&#039;s real behavior. We have the 2006 election for that and they were a pretty decisive confirmation that voters were exactly as upset with the GOP as the polls indicated. Perhaps even moreso - almost no one thought the Senate was seriously in play.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dust Bunny -</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I understand the argument. I think the questions are simple enough and asked by enough polling outfits to provide at least some reasonable idea of people&#8217;s opinions. Especially when there are more specific polls asking when troops should withdrawal or if more troops should be added &#8212; Bush&#8217;s policies still fare terribly in those as well.</p>
<p>Furthermore we don&#8217;t have to exactly guess if the polls reflect people&#8217;s real behavior. We have the 2006 election for that and they were a pretty decisive confirmation that voters were exactly as upset with the GOP as the polls indicated. Perhaps even moreso &#8211; almost no one thought the Senate was seriously in play.</p>
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		<title>By: Dust Bunny</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89794</link>
		<dc:creator>Dust Bunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89794</guid>
		<description>Part of the problem with polls is that they ask questions that can&#039;t really be aswered with a yes or no question.

&quot;Do you approve of the way Bush is running the war in Iraq&quot;.  If I say no, it is assumed that I am anti the Iraq war.  Maybe I disapprove because I think that we didn&#039;t press hard enough in the beginning and that we need to have many more troops on the ground and that we need to aggressively pound the insurgents to pulp.

&quot;Do you approve of Bush&#039;s performance in Office&quot;.  If I say no, then it is assumed that I don&#039;t like Bush and want him out of office and favor the Democrats.  Maybe I don&#039;t approve because he hasn&#039;t vetoed any spending bills, disliked the stance he is taking on illegal immigration, distrust open borders policy and NAFTA support.

Citing polls as the evidence that people are against the Iraq War, or anything else is deceptive since the questions the polls ask are meaningless and the results subject to being distorted to be anything they want it to be.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the problem with polls is that they ask questions that can&#8217;t really be aswered with a yes or no question.</p>
<p>&#8220;Do you approve of the way Bush is running the war in Iraq&#8221;.  If I say no, it is assumed that I am anti the Iraq war.  Maybe I disapprove because I think that we didn&#8217;t press hard enough in the beginning and that we need to have many more troops on the ground and that we need to aggressively pound the insurgents to pulp.</p>
<p>&#8220;Do you approve of Bush&#8217;s performance in Office&#8221;.  If I say no, then it is assumed that I don&#8217;t like Bush and want him out of office and favor the Democrats.  Maybe I don&#8217;t approve because he hasn&#8217;t vetoed any spending bills, disliked the stance he is taking on illegal immigration, distrust open borders policy and NAFTA support.</p>
<p>Citing polls as the evidence that people are against the Iraq War, or anything else is deceptive since the questions the polls ask are meaningless and the results subject to being distorted to be anything they want it to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Panorama</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89793</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Panorama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89793</guid>
		<description>Part of it is apathy and AB gave a lot of good reasons related to how directly the war affects the average American this time around versus 1968 say.

But there&#039;s another element -- the protest is no longer in the street. The liberal blogosphere -- the Daily Kos, MyDD, etc -- formed in large part as a reaction to the impotence of protest culture today. In-person protests I&#039;ve been too have been frustrating affairs organized by, or hijacked by, the looniest elements of the left. But those guys barely represent a fraction of the tens of millions of anti-war Americans you see turn up in polls that constitute a clear majority. That&#039;s why sites like Kos founded -- they take out the Mumia/anti-Israel/communist factor and instead focus on ways to energize a broad community and fight for consensus positions rather than everyone&#039;s fanatical pet cause. That&#039;s the source of their huge popularity.

So by the standards of foot protests, yeah the antiwar movement is pathetic. But if you count the meteoric rise of internet activity, Kos alone has a larger daily readership than many major newspapers and they&#039;ve had great success in actually influencing and fundraising for Democratic politicians. The antiwar movement isn&#039;t dead, it just went virtual.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of it is apathy and AB gave a lot of good reasons related to how directly the war affects the average American this time around versus 1968 say.</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s another element &#8212; the protest is no longer in the street. The liberal blogosphere &#8212; the Daily Kos, MyDD, etc &#8212; formed in large part as a reaction to the impotence of protest culture today. In-person protests I&#8217;ve been too have been frustrating affairs organized by, or hijacked by, the looniest elements of the left. But those guys barely represent a fraction of the tens of millions of anti-war Americans you see turn up in polls that constitute a clear majority. That&#8217;s why sites like Kos founded &#8212; they take out the Mumia/anti-Israel/communist factor and instead focus on ways to energize a broad community and fight for consensus positions rather than everyone&#8217;s fanatical pet cause. That&#8217;s the source of their huge popularity.</p>
<p>So by the standards of foot protests, yeah the antiwar movement is pathetic. But if you count the meteoric rise of internet activity, Kos alone has a larger daily readership than many major newspapers and they&#8217;ve had great success in actually influencing and fundraising for Democratic politicians. The antiwar movement isn&#8217;t dead, it just went virtual.</p>
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		<title>By: dclydew</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89792</link>
		<dc:creator>dclydew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89792</guid>
		<description>I think that America has become much more apathetic than the last Hurrah of the Hippies. I have friends that are against the war, but don&#039;t vote, don&#039;t protest, don&#039;t debate and don&#039;t really give a cent over the debate. They just make fun of Bush and think that all politicians are evil bastards. I have friends that are actively against the war and they don&#039;t really do much more than rant on their blogs, LiveJournals and cc everyone on the damned emails from MoveOn. Even my friends that supported the invasion have now become apathetic and negative. Many of them have simply decided that we&#039;re in that future where the military-industrial complex and corporations have a much greater impact on politics than any group of citizens.

While it does make the protest look stupid... I&#039;m not sure thats how we want the next generation of Americans to feel about the country.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that America has become much more apathetic than the last Hurrah of the Hippies. I have friends that are against the war, but don&#8217;t vote, don&#8217;t protest, don&#8217;t debate and don&#8217;t really give a cent over the debate. They just make fun of Bush and think that all politicians are evil bastards. I have friends that are actively against the war and they don&#8217;t really do much more than rant on their blogs, LiveJournals and cc everyone on the damned emails from MoveOn. Even my friends that supported the invasion have now become apathetic and negative. Many of them have simply decided that we&#8217;re in that future where the military-industrial complex and corporations have a much greater impact on politics than any group of citizens.</p>
<p>While it does make the protest look stupid&#8230; I&#8217;m not sure thats how we want the next generation of Americans to feel about the country.</p>
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		<title>By: Cargosquid</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89791</link>
		<dc:creator>Cargosquid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/09/16/why-the-rinky-dink-antiwar-demonstrations/#comment-89791</guid>
		<description>I did not make it to the &quot;die in&quot; but was present at the march near 7th street.  My estimates of the crowd seemed to be about 2-2500 on GOE and about 7000 on the ANSWER side.  While there were incidents on both sides, ie, shoving, grabbing signs, and provocations, in general, the march was actually quite... well, boring.  The marchers did not seem to have much passsion and my impression was that the younger crowd, though probably antiwar, was there because it was the &quot;cool thing to do on Saturday.&quot;
Many of the younger crowd seemed taken aback by the hostility of our vets.  They should read history about how the vets were betrayed and that the vets see it happening again.  I know that at least 2 vets were hoping to get arrested, in the hopes of drawing cameras.  And to vent some frustrations.
I must say the policeman in front of us did a hell of a job and I would not want his job for any amount of money.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not make it to the &#8220;die in&#8221; but was present at the march near 7th street.  My estimates of the crowd seemed to be about 2-2500 on GOE and about 7000 on the ANSWER side.  While there were incidents on both sides, ie, shoving, grabbing signs, and provocations, in general, the march was actually quite&#8230; well, boring.  The marchers did not seem to have much passsion and my impression was that the younger crowd, though probably antiwar, was there because it was the &#8220;cool thing to do on Saturday.&#8221;<br />
Many of the younger crowd seemed taken aback by the hostility of our vets.  They should read history about how the vets were betrayed and that the vets see it happening again.  I know that at least 2 vets were hoping to get arrested, in the hopes of drawing cameras.  And to vent some frustrations.<br />
I must say the policeman in front of us did a hell of a job and I would not want his job for any amount of money.</p>
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