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	<title>Comments on: The Presidential Debates are a National Joke</title>
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	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90982</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90982</guid>
		<description>Charlie, your &#039;back-of-the-envelope&#039; stuff would suffice for my grandest dream of a comprehension of statistics &amp; probability.
:-(
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie, your &#8216;back-of-the-envelope&#8217; stuff would suffice for my grandest dream of a comprehension of statistics &amp; probability. <img src='http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90981</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90981</guid>
		<description>ddc, you&#039;re behind --- it wasn&#039;t one question, it was nine.  That&#039;s nine questions out of roughly 30 chosen, from a pool of something around five thousand?

Anyone want to compute, as an exercise, the conditional probability that nine out of thirty-some questions, all selected randomly from a pool of 5000 distinct questions, would be?

Answer: the possibilities depend on some assumptions, but basically there are three possible classes of soution:

(1) A pool of Democrat operatives submitted something like 30 percent of ALL questions (call it 1500) and CNN didn&#039;t notice.

(2) There is an &lt;i&gt;exceedingly&lt;/i&gt; small probability(*) of (30/5000) * (9/5000), or about 0.0000108, that the choices were random and independent, or

(3) CNN was actually quite selective in choosing --- and vetting --- the questions.

(* this can be computed better, but it&#039;s a weekend and I&#039;m tired.  If you want to make a more proper calculation, dropping the simplifying assumptions, using Bayes Rule, feel free.  Personally, I don&#039;t think most of the numbers about the universe of discourse are good enough to think of this as anything other than a back-of-envelope estimate anyway.)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ddc, you&#8217;re behind &#8212; it wasn&#8217;t one question, it was nine.  That&#8217;s nine questions out of roughly 30 chosen, from a pool of something around five thousand?</p>
<p>Anyone want to compute, as an exercise, the conditional probability that nine out of thirty-some questions, all selected randomly from a pool of 5000 distinct questions, would be?</p>
<p>Answer: the possibilities depend on some assumptions, but basically there are three possible classes of soution:</p>
<p>(1) A pool of Democrat operatives submitted something like 30 percent of ALL questions (call it 1500) and CNN didn&#8217;t notice.</p>
<p>(2) There is an <i>exceedingly</i> small probability(*) of (30/5000) * (9/5000), or about 0.0000108, that the choices were random and independent, or</p>
<p>(3) CNN was actually quite selective in choosing &#8212; and vetting &#8212; the questions.</p>
<p>(* this can be computed better, but it&#8217;s a weekend and I&#8217;m tired.  If you want to make a more proper calculation, dropping the simplifying assumptions, using Bayes Rule, feel free.  Personally, I don&#8217;t think most of the numbers about the universe of discourse are good enough to think of this as anything other than a back-of-envelope estimate anyway.)</p>
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		<title>By: cubanbob</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90980</link>
		<dc:creator>cubanbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 06:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90980</guid>
		<description>Peg C , your preaching to the choir. The fact is the media is biased. It isn&#039;t right or fair but it is what it is. Nevertheless it&#039;s a good training regimen for the Republicans and has the added virtue of helping the Democrats delude themselves. It helps anger the otherwise apathetic Republican base, possible enough to go out and vote en mass on election day no matter who the Republican candidate is and frankly when the campaigns get negative during the general as they inevitably will, the nasty questions and the set up assumption questions will be asked of both sides. It&#039;s how they are answered that will make a big difference.

I suspect the so-called support for the left in this country is more exagerated than real. Keep in mind the last Democrat who ran as a liberal and won was Johnson. Carter barely defeated Ford and that is more due to Ford&#039;s pardon of Nixon and the fact that he was the only apointed President along with Carter seeming to be a Southern Conservative in &#039;76. Clinton never won a majority and both elections had more votes against him than for him. Again Clinton did not campaign as a lefty and for the most part did not govern to left yet if he really was so popular then question is why did Gore lose? 2000 should have been a 1984, a landslide for Gore. A year in politics is an eternity so right now it is way to early to make any calls. Nevertheless the Democratic lineup is unusally weak and the Republicans in comparision are rather strong and have real records not smoke and mirrors. And that will come out in the real debates when Hillary or whomever the Democrats choose get the the tough questions that require answers and not platittudes and spin.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peg C , your preaching to the choir. The fact is the media is biased. It isn&#8217;t right or fair but it is what it is. Nevertheless it&#8217;s a good training regimen for the Republicans and has the added virtue of helping the Democrats delude themselves. It helps anger the otherwise apathetic Republican base, possible enough to go out and vote en mass on election day no matter who the Republican candidate is and frankly when the campaigns get negative during the general as they inevitably will, the nasty questions and the set up assumption questions will be asked of both sides. It&#8217;s how they are answered that will make a big difference.</p>
<p>I suspect the so-called support for the left in this country is more exagerated than real. Keep in mind the last Democrat who ran as a liberal and won was Johnson. Carter barely defeated Ford and that is more due to Ford&#8217;s pardon of Nixon and the fact that he was the only apointed President along with Carter seeming to be a Southern Conservative in &#8216;76. Clinton never won a majority and both elections had more votes against him than for him. Again Clinton did not campaign as a lefty and for the most part did not govern to left yet if he really was so popular then question is why did Gore lose? 2000 should have been a 1984, a landslide for Gore. A year in politics is an eternity so right now it is way to early to make any calls. Nevertheless the Democratic lineup is unusally weak and the Republicans in comparision are rather strong and have real records not smoke and mirrors. And that will come out in the real debates when Hillary or whomever the Democrats choose get the the tough questions that require answers and not platittudes and spin.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Freeman</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90979</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90979</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused.  The MSM is riddled with Dem activists and the like, so how was the CNN &quot;debate&quot; any different from a normal news conference?

Is the problem that some of these questioners are getting paid while journalists carry Dem water for free?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused.  The MSM is riddled with Dem activists and the like, so how was the CNN &#8220;debate&#8221; any different from a normal news conference?</p>
<p>Is the problem that some of these questioners are getting paid while journalists carry Dem water for free?</p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90978</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90978</guid>
		<description>CNN has been beyond embarrassment since it least 2005, when boss Eason Jordan speaking at an international conference in Madrid, accused the American armed forces in Iraq of a deliberate conspiracy and action to murder journalists.

Oh yes, he had to step down afterwards--but that made it even worse--as in, by g_d if such a thing is true, you&#039;re gonna meekly quit your job when you get a little resistance on the accusation?

So, CNN manages to be both a viciously aggressive liar and a spineless cowardly wimp at the same time--no mean trick!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CNN has been beyond embarrassment since it least 2005, when boss Eason Jordan speaking at an international conference in Madrid, accused the American armed forces in Iraq of a deliberate conspiracy and action to murder journalists.</p>
<p>Oh yes, he had to step down afterwards&#8211;but that made it even worse&#8211;as in, by g_d if such a thing is true, you&#8217;re gonna meekly quit your job when you get a little resistance on the accusation?</p>
<p>So, CNN manages to be both a viciously aggressive liar and a spineless cowardly wimp at the same time&#8211;no mean trick!</p>
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		<title>By: Lem</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90977</link>
		<dc:creator>Lem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90977</guid>
		<description>The emotional pulse button, supposedly held by &#039;real people&#039; (who knows who was really being measured) gave the impression the &#039;audience&#039; were extras from a bad gladiator movie.

These so called debates are devolving.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The emotional pulse button, supposedly held by &#8216;real people&#8217; (who knows who was really being measured) gave the impression the &#8216;audience&#8217; were extras from a bad gladiator movie.</p>
<p>These so called debates are devolving.</p>
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		<title>By: Peg C.</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90976</link>
		<dc:creator>Peg C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90976</guid>
		<description>Jabba, no one would watch. People are only watching and interested because these things are turning into Shakespearean farce. It&#039;s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Make it crazy enough that everyone watches, and everyone watches because it&#039;s crazy. Hey I enjoy 20-car NASCAR pileups as well as the next person, but not in the media while they drag our presidential election year into ludicrous triviality. What&#039;s really bad is this is becoming about everything but the candidates (other than Hillary&#039;s bad evening which made my day).

Incidentally, almost no one watched the debates that we remember from years ago. This utter nonsense is what garners attention now. I&#039;m not sure how you end up with a decent, serious candidate from all this.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jabba, no one would watch. People are only watching and interested because these things are turning into Shakespearean farce. It&#8217;s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Make it crazy enough that everyone watches, and everyone watches because it&#8217;s crazy. Hey I enjoy 20-car NASCAR pileups as well as the next person, but not in the media while they drag our presidential election year into ludicrous triviality. What&#8217;s really bad is this is becoming about everything but the candidates (other than Hillary&#8217;s bad evening which made my day).</p>
<p>Incidentally, almost no one watched the debates that we remember from years ago. This utter nonsense is what garners attention now. I&#8217;m not sure how you end up with a decent, serious candidate from all this.</p>
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		<title>By: Jabba the Tutt</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90975</link>
		<dc:creator>Jabba the Tutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90975</guid>
		<description>Why don&#039;t the candidates organize this themselves?  Or two of the candidates debate.  They could stream it on the internet or C-SPAN could run it, if Fox or CNN don&#039;t want to do it.  Guiliani and Romney would have an interest to debate one another.  These candidates are being far too passive and not creative enough to take advantage of the new media opportunities out there.

Duncan Hunter could debate Kucinich on the war.  That would be interesting and maybe we&#039;d learn something and it would raise both of their profiles.

Why not?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why don&#8217;t the candidates organize this themselves?  Or two of the candidates debate.  They could stream it on the internet or C-SPAN could run it, if Fox or CNN don&#8217;t want to do it.  Guiliani and Romney would have an interest to debate one another.  These candidates are being far too passive and not creative enough to take advantage of the new media opportunities out there.</p>
<p>Duncan Hunter could debate Kucinich on the war.  That would be interesting and maybe we&#8217;d learn something and it would raise both of their profiles.</p>
<p>Why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Allei</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90974</link>
		<dc:creator>Allei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90974</guid>
		<description>Why is it that every time the Democratic Party involves itself in a democratic exercise, the cesspool overflows and stinks to high heavens? It is a case of no restraint?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is it that every time the Democratic Party involves itself in a democratic exercise, the cesspool overflows and stinks to high heavens? It is a case of no restraint?</p>
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		<title>By: Peg C.</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90973</link>
		<dc:creator>Peg C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2007/11/29/the-presidential-debates-are-a-national-joke/#comment-90973</guid>
		<description>cubanbob, your point would be good, except that, as Rush has been amply explaining this week, the Republicans face a circus of Democrat plants asking questions about policies created and/or promoted by Democrats, while Hillary no longer even has to answer good, tough policy questions nevermind challenges she should be answering about her unreleased records as First Lady, the Rose Law Firm billing records, bimbo eruptions handled by smearing and about 100 other things I can think of that immediately disqualify her for the WH. This is why I won&#039;t watch any debates at all. I heard part of the Republican debate moderated by Russert (I was working, couldn&#039;t watch TV) and thought the candidates acquitted themselves well. The least offensive Dem candidate is Obama and that is not a compliment. He&#039;s an empty-suited twit. He just sounds good next to the rest.

Hillary was asked one question that blew up in her face and made her look like the equivocating flipflopper I thought only Kerry could be, and now she&#039;s not to be asked any questions that don&#039;t allow her to just pontificate meaninglessly. Meanwhile the Republicans are challenged by plants  on policies they did not put in place and likely never would have supported. (Only Dems actually get away with being overtly racist and anti-gay.)

Conservatives have always been, are and will always be challenged on a daily basis and we have the well-constructed arguments, ideas and principles to prove it. Dems haven&#039;t, don&#039;t, won&#039;t, and do not. The current crop of candidates and the Drive-Bys prove it and perpetuate it. If you never challenge someone, they never develop intellectual toughness. The Dems have no intellectual toughness.

It ain&#039;t the Republicans that don&#039;t think quick on their feet, bud.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cubanbob, your point would be good, except that, as Rush has been amply explaining this week, the Republicans face a circus of Democrat plants asking questions about policies created and/or promoted by Democrats, while Hillary no longer even has to answer good, tough policy questions nevermind challenges she should be answering about her unreleased records as First Lady, the Rose Law Firm billing records, bimbo eruptions handled by smearing and about 100 other things I can think of that immediately disqualify her for the WH. This is why I won&#8217;t watch any debates at all. I heard part of the Republican debate moderated by Russert (I was working, couldn&#8217;t watch TV) and thought the candidates acquitted themselves well. The least offensive Dem candidate is Obama and that is not a compliment. He&#8217;s an empty-suited twit. He just sounds good next to the rest.</p>
<p>Hillary was asked one question that blew up in her face and made her look like the equivocating flipflopper I thought only Kerry could be, and now she&#8217;s not to be asked any questions that don&#8217;t allow her to just pontificate meaninglessly. Meanwhile the Republicans are challenged by plants  on policies they did not put in place and likely never would have supported. (Only Dems actually get away with being overtly racist and anti-gay.)</p>
<p>Conservatives have always been, are and will always be challenged on a daily basis and we have the well-constructed arguments, ideas and principles to prove it. Dems haven&#8217;t, don&#8217;t, won&#8217;t, and do not. The current crop of candidates and the Drive-Bys prove it and perpetuate it. If you never challenge someone, they never develop intellectual toughness. The Dems have no intellectual toughness.</p>
<p>It ain&#8217;t the Republicans that don&#8217;t think quick on their feet, bud.</p>
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