48 Comments

1. Promoguy:

Even if all these bastards did was put bullets in them or strangle them it would be torture. They were innocents like all the others.

As far as I’m concerned they can torture the one left over. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over that at all. And if you want to know why? Ask little Moshe Holtzberg.

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2008/12/mourning-for-mother.html

These are the same people that beheaded Philip Berg. Remember the gurgling sounds he made as he died.

Yeah, torture the lot of them.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:57 pm 2. vb:

While flipping channels last night, I saw a bit of Christiane Amanpour’s program on genocides. She was talking about the Khmer Rouge and their torturing: they used beatings, something else I don’t recall, and “even waterboarding.” I guess that phrase was meant to show that we all have a bit of Khmer Rouge in us, at least until the inauguration. Then we won’t have to fears streets full of bodies and stacks of skulls.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:25 am 3. davidingeorgia:

People who engage in the sorts of things that the terrorists in Bombay engaged in (not even counting the extra ugliness that they took the time for with the Jewish victims), as far as I’m concerned, strips them of any “right” or expectation of civilized behavior by the people that they attack. Treat them as the cockroaches that they are wherever you find them…kill them – brutally or cleanly – wherever you find them. Period.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:14 am 4. ray_g:

What bothered me about the news reports was the use of the word “surprised”. Doctors and other officials said they were surprised that the victims were tortured. Come on, given the recent history of these groups how can anyone claim to be surprised by this? Are they lying, or just hopelessly naive?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:17 am 5. Judith:

Thank G-d the terrorists didn’t behead anyone…their usual trademark. The mere cold blooded murder of innocents is terror enough, but w/ respect to the Chabad victims, the terrorists killed the Holzbergs in front of the baby Moishe who was found lying in his parent’s blood. Tha Zaka rescue investigators & Sandra the cook who saved the baby’s life further confirm that the baby was beaten unconscious w/ visible bruises on his back. If even CNN international reports this in today’s article on Sandra then it must be true, given CNN’s affinity to serve as apologists for the Islamic terrorists…sorry, “practitioners” or “gunmen” in CNN-speak.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:29 am 6. marymcl:

Ray_g – As I understood the reports, the doctors were shocked and appalled at the actual physical condition of the bodies – they had not merely been killed, they’d been abused in specifically horrific ways. As a practical nurse I can tell you that no matter how long you’ve been exposed to disease or trauma some things will get to you.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:53 am 7. marymcl:

On the other hand, the MSM’s blatant efforts to whitewash the obvious is something else altogether. I’m right with you on that one.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:58 am 8. ray_g:

marymci – I was commenting on the media reports. Shocked and appalled are appropriate, but not surprised. And that was the word I saw in headlines. I meant no criticism of the medical personnel, and apologize if I gave that impression.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:11 am 9. RES:

“the rap against torture to elicit information is that it doesn’t really do that, doesn’t work. The subject is so pained he will say anything.”

If so, then you aren’t doing it right. Think of torture as a (drastic? pure?) form of Skinnerian operant conditioning: establish a baseline by demanding information which can be verified and punish (provide negative reinforcement) any lies. Examples of effective use of torture are provided by Army Lt. Col. (ret.) Tom Kratman in his novels “A Desert Called Peace” and “Carnifex” (in which he demonstrates how the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan should have been conducted.)

And blessings upon you, Roger, for your point underlining the absurdity (cluelessness?) of fretting over how our “torture” might expose to worse any of our troops captured; while we may be willing to accord the Geneva Convention protocols to the enemy it is hardly likely that people who tortured the Holtzbergs and decapitated Daniel Pearl can delve deeper into depravity than is their established baseline.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:24 am 10. Broadsword:

Unless I am mistaken, ‘truth serum’ is a poor translation of the Hindi words “at ruthas erum”, which means, literally, “feed him to the pigs”…I think…Heh.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:38 am 11. cfbleachers:

Tha Zaka rescue investigators & Sandra the cook who saved the baby’s life further confirm that the baby was beaten unconscious w/ visible bruises on his back.

Judith, I have not read more jaw dropping words in a long time.

I am by nature a pretty even-keeled man. At 55, I have seen, heard and witnessed much and it has become fairly difficult to shock me or create a strong visceral response. These words, if based upon actual facts as related by Judith…have done so.

You know, “leftists round the bend”, those who go out of their way to find find “root causes” for our enemies and “root fault” with us…will have to go to great lengths to whitewash this level of depravity. No doubt they will find a way to blame Israel, America and Bush for the baby’s beating.

Whereupon my second visceral response to the story will rise up from within me and I will want to hurt someone yet again.

I believe that there are two moral depravities at work. Those cretins who become blinded by rage to the extent that they have lost the last tether to their humanity…and give in to the hatred that fuels their black hearts.

And the second moral depravity of those who willingly act as agent provocateurs, providing cover and alibi for the above, who have not lost their last tether to humanity, but have given it freely, because their leftism provides a protective shell for their treason toward humanity.

The former group crossed out their humanity in the name of hatred, the latter sold out their humanity in the name of elitism. May they both rot in hell, together.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:54 am 12. Bill Menge:

I detest and abhor the activities of the terrorists in Mumbai that have killed people and specifically targeted the Jews for torture and further attacked a baby. Given a butterknife, I would cut their hearts out. But I’m sorry, cfbleachers and Judith, I’m unaware of the apologists of which you speak, both in the media (CNN in particular) and in the representative general population that will excuse or explain away this type of activity in some “leftist” sense. If there are any people that minimize this type of activity or blame Amnericans or excuse it because of some sociological slight, please make us specifically aware of the names and quotes, so that we can all feel justified in sharing your outrage beyond the outrage we feel for the terrorists. It’s easy to take shots at the “media” and the the “left”, but I don’t see their faults at work here. Please give us examples.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:14 am 13. Dr. Lumplevin:

“I wouldn’t brag about it but, in certain situations, I would be sorely tempted to use torture if I knew it might save innocent lives. (Roger L. Simon)

How unspeakably cruel! The young Pakistani men had probably suffered years of deprivation and poverty due to US imperialism, of not being able to attend a quality colleges, and no job opportunities if they did, and a corresponding low self-esteem complex that drove them to commit those acts in Mumbai. They did not have the privelege of growing up watching Sesame Street.

I would rather that LA, NYC, or Chicago would get completely erased from the map, although we would tragically lose a good number of progressive voters and intellectuals, than that they would suffer one second more, or than one single drop of water pass through these young men’s nostrils during waterboarding. They have suffered enough emotionally! Where is your compassion?

Our principles and compassion are not worth sacrificing even the entire population of our country.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:32 am 14. Judith S.:

Bill Menge, see, Jerusalem Post’s Caroline Glick’s 12/2 article that gives examples of those in the media or deluded left who are “jihadists’ multicultural enablers” that blame the victims & distort the truth. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702394020&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

(cfbleachers)Video’s of Sandra’s CNN interview about how she rescued Moshe & where she found him can be found on the Chabad website or CNN International.
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=1043 or http://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?artID=43084

The Daily Mail, CNN article, YNET, NY POST and many more have reported onthe baby being beaten unconscious & other torture to the victims. Just to add to the unfathomable horror, Rivka Holtzberg, Moshe’s mother, was 5 months pregnant when she was murdered by these subhuman Islamic terrorists.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:46 am 15. Judith:

Bill Menge, see, Jerusalem Post’s Caroline Glick’s 12/2 article that gives examples of those in the media or deluded left who are “jihadists’ multicultural enablers” that blame the victims & distort the truth. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702394020&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

(cfbleachers)Video’s of Sandra’s CNNinterview about how she rescued Moshe & where she found him can be found on the Chabad website or CNN International.
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=1043 or http://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?artID=43084

The Daily Mail, CNN article,YNET,NY POST, and many more, have reported onthe baby being beaten unconscious & other torture to the victims. Just to add to the unfathomable horror, Rivka Holtzberg, Moshe’s mother, was 5 months pregnant when she was murdered by these subhuman Islamic terrorists.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:48 am 16. Mike_K:

It’s easy to take shots at the “media” and the the “left”, but I don’t see their faults at work here. Please give us examples.

How about this story ? There is a long list of hoaxes perpetrated on behalf of, or by, the Palestinians. You may question the association between the left and the radical Islamists, including the Palestinian terrorists but Obama’s advisors include many examples.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:19 am 17. hermie:

I’m sure Christiana is relieved that the ‘militants’ didn’t put panties on the Chabad residents’ (can’t call them ‘victims’ unless you can blame it on Bush) heads before they pulled the triggers.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:38 am 18. tonymixan:

“It’s the religion,stupid.”—Mohammet

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:46 am 19. heather:

This is just speculation, but, I think this is what happened: when the ‘teen gunmen’ attacked the Rabbi and his wife, they threw the little guy against the wall, or something. This was done hard enough to cause bruising. When totally shocked, babies will ‘zone out’, ie, appear to be unconscious, or dead. I think this is why Moshe survived the murderous rampage in the main part of the Chabad. When he became conscious, and cried out, very luckily for him, his nanny, Sandra, rescued him. Otherwise the ‘teen gunmen’ would have killed him.

As to the gunmen: they come from such a splendid culture. The one who survived was sold by his father for money. And all of the killers were jacked up on steroids and speed and etc. so they could be great (and expendable) killing machines,
so that
India and Pakistan will have a war and even more people will be killed. But, gosh darn it, Allah will produce a world wide caliphate!!!

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:25 am 20. cfbleachers:

The entrenched meda and the left haven’t given ENOUGH examples of their nefarious coverage?

I wouldn’t know where to begin. The BBC has been infamous in its treatment of Israel.

Green Helmet guy, the AP, Reuters, CNN and others have been OPENLY COMPLICIT in the fauxtography of events, staging of events, withholding evidence of atrocities, phony “sourcing”, ….there are literally THOUSANDS of examples. Are there really people who are blissfully unaware of these distortions and half-truths?

The network anchors for YEARS have steadfastly refused to call these monsters “terrorists”. They use leftist language, frame the issues in leftist ideological terms, present evidence in coded words and parsed phraseology, and paint the picture in the typical “root causes” apologia for the monsters and “root blame” for Israel, America, the Jews, and Republican Christians.

I’m stunned that there is anyone who is still unaware of this fundamental fact. (I’m not stunned at the “denials” by leftists and the perpetrators in the media who lie about it with impunity, however.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:34 pm 21. gippergal:

I completely agree that certain actions taken against innocent people would lead me to “coerce” information from someone if it would save more lives. One could argue that if one has the opportunity to save lives, and does not take it, that that is the much greater evil. To me, that would appeal to the highest standard of ethics possible: to avoid saving many people in order to save one’s own skin from judgment is abhorrent. The liberals of today don’t understand this kind of morality, I’m afraid. The leftist illuminati see only flowers put in gun barrels and muddy, Woodstock peace and love.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:01 pm 22. blogengeezer:

All of this would have been only a very brief note in the media regarding, “A ‘conflict’ in which a gang of young gunmen met their demise while engaging in a ‘turf war’ with an unknown number of armed hotel clerks, security personel, and parishners in Mumbai”….if .. a comprehensive Concealed Carry of Weapons were in effect in Mumbai at the time.
Today I love the USA,. CCW all the way.. CNN Go Away.. Instead we’re faced with ‘Nukes one day’. “I love it when a Poem comes together”

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:40 pm 23. James:

Hi Roger,

What do mean by “They will tell you anything”? Do you mean that they will rat out their friends? Isn’t that what you want?

If you mean that they will tell you lots of stuff that isn’t true – and they will rat out their friends, then those things can be investigated.

If by “anything”, you include the information you want, then that means torture works, not that it doesn’t. Torture may be evil to extract information – that’s a tough moral call.

The statement “They will tell you anything” is reason why it works. Not why it doesn’t.

James

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:48 pm 24. buddy larsen:

Those poor kids –not even 30 yet, trying to raise a family, sacrificing security and the years others build business careers, all in order to serve others. Lord, it’s cold sometimes.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:30 pm 25. Tcobb:

The Golden Rule is wonderful in theory–but in the real world the Silver Rule–Do unto others AS they do unto you–is probably the way to go. And when you you are dealing with scum like the little Mumbai “disgruntled young gunmen,” there is the Iron Rule, which is “Do unto others what they intend to do to you BEFORE they have a chance to do that to you, and Mercy is just a small town in some obscure state that doesn’t have much to do with anything.”

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:06 pm 26. Mike_K:

Tcobb, with people like those disgruntled Muslims, I believe in gun control.

Both hands.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:40 pm 27. marymcl:

ray_g

Thanks, but there’s no need to apologize. As a rule I would never say medical personnel are above criticism!

As for torture, I agree completely with gippergal’s statement above. That said, we all know there are drugs that make physical torture unnecessary. The Indian authorities have been using them already. If you can shoot them up with whatever and just proceed with the interview, why the hell not? Certainly any situation that would justify torture justifies ‘truth serum’. You get the needed information faster and I should think it’s much easier on the interrogators as well. Who are, after all, cast in the role of villain by many of the people whose lives they hope to save.

And as for the other kind of torture, the best medicine for the Awful Amanpour is the late, great Oriana Fallaci

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003191

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:13 pm 28. Jay:

“What’s interesting about this torture is its psychopathic nature. It’s extremely different from the torture allegedly practiced by our intelligence agencies, water boarding, etc., which is designed to elicit information. I doubt there was much information Rabbi Holzberg could have told the terrorists or even that they would have been remotely interested if he had any.”

This paragraph is so rotten in so many ways. For example: the use of the word, “allegedly” shows what you’ve been reduced to: apologizing for torture by using every weasel word under the sun.

Then, there’s the twisted logic of these sentences: “What’s interesting about this torture is its psychopathic nature. It’s extremely different from the torture allegedly practiced by our intelligence agencies, water boarding, etc., which is designed to elicit information. I doubt there was much information Rabbi Holzberg could have told the terrorists or even that they would have been remotely interested if he had any.”

Your ironclad belief in American exceptionalism is laughable. Do you really think the incompetent fool Lyndie England was trying to “elicit information” by walking a prisoner about on a leash? This is not to say that a force of Englands are fighting on our behalf, or to compare England to the likes of the India murderers, although some will doubtless twist my words to claim that’s what I wrote. The point is that England behaved in a way that was universally condemned in the military as both immoral and strategically ineffective, and the first Americans who blew the whistle on this were not ACLU types, but career military; they knew what a joke England was. For those so certain that torture of our enemies works, why not be honest about the methods, or are you afraid that these psychopaths will somehow hate us more if we reveal them? And what if torture of an innocent or innocents is authorized by an American president? If you are confident that the methods work at least most of the time, doesn’t the flip-side also dictate that there must be accountability for those who screw it up?
Our enemies have long tortured innocents to get information. This happens with street-level crime, too. McCain’s captors wanted him to rat out his whole unit because it would’ve been a strategic victory for them. Alas, he didn’t, subbing in a pro football team instead.

So, since we know that our enemies do, in fact, torture innocents in an effort to get information, they could’ve been looking to extend their killing spree by torturing the late Mr. Holzberg. You constructed the argument, Roger, and it’s a weak one.

Finally, there’s this: “How many heads can the Islamists take off one person?” First, I didn’t know decapitation was a form of snark, but thanks for the tip. The point, though, is not that terrorists behead. That is known. The question, in my view, is: how much are you willing to give up? So you support waterboarding. Fine. What’s next? Mock executions? Then what? Dogs? It’s a very, very slippery slope, which is why it shouldn’t be a hard call to make the Army Field Manual the Bible for interrogation techniques. Me? I think our enemies are nihilists who will do what they will to us, come what may. What I won’t do, however, is submit to a philosophical slippery slope when I know the likes of the Army Field Manual are already on hand. We can destroy our enemies by cutting off their funding, shooting and bombing them on site, and providing aid to existing or budding democratic institutions in hot zones like Iraq and Afghanistan that give ordinary people there the knowledge to build a society free of thuggery. I’m sorry so many people here believe we will all die unless we agree to live in a perpetual episode of “24.”

One more thing: for the likes of “Promoguy” and all those who think that those who go against the prevailing wind here are somehow oblivious to the suffering of terror victims, his name was Nick Berg.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:38 pm 29. Victor Erimita:

The “truth serum” they use is just a kind of barbituate that reduces inhibition while stimulating the urge to talk. It isn’t torture in any meaningful sense of the word, in that it doesn’t cause pain or undue discomfort. It is hardly infallible, but sometimes its use yields worthwhile information. The main legal reasons it is not used in the U.S. is (1) it is too unreliable to use as evidence in court, and (2) it violates a suspects Fifth Amendment rights. Neither of these is relevant in the present case. I doubt the Indians are using it to build a criminal indictment against this little swine. They are using it to see what they can find out about his organization.

The real reason Western bleeding hearts are against its use is because they are against anything the West does and for anything the enemies of the West do. Their millimeter-deep thought process is always on knee jerk autopilot assuming ultimate fault in the West (especially the U.S and Israel) and ultimate victimization for everyone else, resulting in no moral standards for anyone but us. Everyone else should be excused, even cheered, for doing anything at all to us and ours. Up is down, black is white, night is day to the sublimely Deep Thinkers of the global Left.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:49 pm 30. buddy larsen:

“Up is down, black is white, night is day….”

Victor Erimita, here is something you’ll understand. Select the 07/11/08 entry, titled “Cultural Suicide”.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:14 pm 31. A. N. Pierson:

Jay above, it was hard to make it through your angry screed, but it did help me with something. I used to be confused when bloggers like Michael Totten referred to some liberals as reactionaries. Now I fully understand.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:28 pm 32. Lightnin' Hopkins:

How about you, Jay, any belief in American exceptionalism, ironclad or otherwise? Preferably in six paragraphs or less.
Congratulations on the use of paragraphs, by the way.

Personally, I feel there is a wide chasm between waterboarding and getting run through a plastic shredder. Maybe it’s just me. One major difference is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s big fat face is still drawing breath as we speak.

Embrace the nuance, Jay. Even better – you know what might be cool? Going on some jihadi message board and mocking the host’s views as laughable and the commenters as being bloodthirsty. Just for some giggles.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:45 pm 33. marymcl:

@28 Jay
The best answer to your “slippery slope” argument precedes your post. I refer you to gippergal’s statement @21

“…to avoid saving many people in order to save one’s own skin from judgment is abhorrent.”

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:54 am 34. Promoguy:

You’re right Jay. His name was Nick.

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:19 am 35. buddy larsen:

(*whew*) Thank goodness you straightened out that murderously lethal gaffe, Promoguy. Now the likes of you won’t be condemned to eternal hell along with the likes of them Mumbai demons.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:47 am 36. Judy, NYC:

jeepers jay #28,

i sure hope those guys don’t capture you, as they like to gouge out eyes, castrate, chop off your hands, and then rip out your throat.

now, what were you saying about “slippery slope”?

and, to your brain dead screed about “amerian exceptionalism”. yes, we are exceptional. if we weren’t exceptional in the very best sense, we would rip you apart with our bare hands, acompanied, of course by very loud screeching from the hyena (and pig) crowd, and fire guns in the air to celebrate. get off this site. you stink up the place.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:41 am 37. hanoi paris hilton:

Yo, Jay…

FWIW, the famous hooded guy in the scrapbook pix with the fake electrodes connected to nothing in my erstwhile fellow white trash West Virginian Lyddie England’s regrettable hijinks at the level of a fraternity hazing –which is certainly “allegedly” torture in my book– came out of the woodwork some months ago, interviewed on BBC World Service TV, as he was offering professional consultancy services specializing in victimology/ American prisoner abuse. Although I saw something online just hour ago debunking the dude as not the real electrodes+ hood prototype.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:56 am 38. buddy larsen:

Slippery slope: (noun) the grounding of ‘moral equivalence’; where one finds footing when inclined toward same.

…don’t want to overdo this so this my second will be my last link to my new philosoper ‘find’, but ‘moral equivalence’ having reared its ghastly cosmetic head as a subtopic here, a link is in order to this sobering and hopefully bracing like-titled rumination.

“Wars are fought and won within the human heart, often before any fighting begins” he observes. Wonder why he omitted “or lost” between the words ‘won’ and ‘within’?

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:05 pm 39. buddy larsen:

FoxNews is reporting an addy ( [chabadindia.org] is what Brian Wilson –no not that Brian Wilson –said aloud, tho be advised he did not spell it so i had to guess), where donations can be arranged toward care of the little 2 year old orphan survivor.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:18 pm 40. marymcl:

Jay wrote (@28 above)

“Do you really think the incompetent fool Lyndie England was trying to “elicit information” by walking a prisoner about on a leash? This is not to say that a force of Englands are fighting on our behalf, or to compare England to the likes of the India murderers, although some will doubtless twist my words to claim that’s what I wrote.”

Well OK if you insist. But honestly I don’t have to “twist” anything. Here goes – in the next sentence, you wrote:

“The point is that England behaved in a way that was universally condemned in the military as both immoral and strategically ineffective, and the first Americans who blew the whistle on this were not ACLU types, but career military; they knew what a joke England was.”

Just so we’re clear – She was “a joke” right? You do not consider her to be representative of military intelligence. OK so far? Now in the very next sentence we have:

“For those so certain that torture of our enemies works, why not be honest about the methods, or are you afraid that these psychopaths will somehow hate us more if we reveal them?”

Exactly whose “methods” are you talking about, if not Lynddie England’s, the unrepresentative joke you nevertheless saw fit to cite as your only example of military intelligence?

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:25 pm 41. marymcl:

One last thing Jay – for better or worse, and with all due respect to the Army Field Manual, it’s the CIA that oversees intelligence operations.

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:09 pm 42. pov:

Substantiated? Yes, if one thinks that release by the Indian forces constitute substantiation then yes sure. Me, I’m one of those “conspiracy theorists” – those nuts that claimed, for instance, that there weren’t any WMD in Iraq.

Using torture to save lives? Sounds like much the same fear-driven, twisted, crap-as-justification spouted by those you claim to be opposed to. I guess that cliche about gradually becoming like the people one hates has some validity.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:20 pm 43. buddy larsen:

those nuts that claimed, for instance, that there weren’t any WMD in Iraq

jeez, pov –imagine that, right here on roger’s little blog –how did you know?

you should write a book and counter those dozen or so top industrialized nation’s national intelligence services ( not to mention saddam’s own general staff ) which thought otherwise.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:57 pm 44. Lightnin' Hopkins:

pov: Torture is rehashing WMD on a blogpost about an entirely different subject, years on. You forgot the whole “we were supposed to be greeted as liberators” song and dance – that’s my favorite part. Funny thing is, now we are. Millions of people are free from a brutal dictator’s tyranny, as well as from the vicious radical Islamist thugs whose harsh treatment keeps you up nights.

Here’s some of that non-existant WMD that got shipped to Canada for safe storage just last year:

http://tinyurl.com/6s2qur

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:49 pm 45. jerry:

David Menge

You ask for specifics regarding the complicity of the mass media in promoting terrorism. Think carefully about the NYTimes. Their ability to withhold information is abetting criminal terrorism.

Let me give one recent example. The al Durra death in Israel was reported by France II television as being the result of Israeli soldiers killing the innocent child in the father’s arms. Phillpe Karsenty, a French Jew took the television station to court and finally won on appeal. The court ruled that the television station was not able to sue him for liable, since the material presented in court did not show Karsenty to be a liar. This was a highly significant decision by the French court because it essentially exonerated the Israeli Army and removed the ostensible reason for the start of the Intifada in which many hundreds of Jews died. The Times reported on the al Durra case, but would not report on the French court reversal, thus leaving the impression that everything was just fine in the Land of Journalism. No, it was not fine. France II lied through their teeth, brought no internal charges against its reporters, and has now gone on the French Supreme Court to challenge the Appellate Court’s ruling. Failure of the NYTimes to mention this matter has allowed poor journalism to disregard “truth” because their is no “truth” in their understanding of the world – only advocacy.

Of course, there is the famous, though completely forgotten, CNN admission that they skewed the news from Israel to keep their reporters safe and to retain access to their sources in Gaza. The same admission has come in a less dramatic way from the BBC, which bent over so far backwards to get their reporter, Johnson, back that they were able to lick their own arses.

These cases are no longer part of the news, but you can see their reverberations of their historical admissions in the CNN motto, “The news you can trust.”

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:51 pm 46. Gary Rosen:

Thanks, Jay, for answering Bill Menge’s question.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:59 pm 47. tanstaafl:

“terrorists”, I’m sure, laugh all the way to the bank at the west’s preocccupation with “torture”.

Such obsessive self-righteousness (”the United States doesn’t torture”) seems pathetic and lame, given Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, Mumbai, especially the people in the Jewish center, and so many instances of wanton and despicable slaughter perpetrated by Islamists.

Got that ? ISLAMISTS

Spread a rumor that a Quran got flushed down the can at Gitmo, and there’ll be rioting throughout the Muslim world. Publish some dull cartoons in a minor Danish newspaper, and there’ll be protests around the planet. But slaughter the young pregnant wife of a rabbi in Mumbai in the name of Allah, and that’s just business as usual.

Must read Mark Steyn

Dec 7, 2008 - 11:55 am 48. buddy larsen:

Re the toons, there weren’t just “protests around the planet” –there were burning western embassies around the planet –and iirc some deaths, including some considerably murderous organized nastiness in sub-saharan Africa.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:49 pm

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