As the world knows now, a particularly juvenile Iraqi journalist threw a shoe at George Bush in Baghdad Sunday. Bush characteristically made light of the situation. If there’s one thing many can agree on about the president, it’s that he doesn’t take insults too personally, at least in public. Good thing too, considering all the abuse that has been heaped on him in recent years. I can’t imagine I would have behaved the same way. With my temper, I would probably have picked up the shoe and gone after the dopey journo myself.
Well, maybe I wouldn’t have. The clod probably did Bush a favor, making the president look good. And Bush could use it, because I can’t think of a public figure in my lifetime who has been so reviled except Nixon. And Bush never did anything provably wrong. He didn’t cover up an illegal break-in, try to sell a Senate seat or even have oral sex with an intern in the White House (and then claim it wasn’t sex). He just did his job to the best of his ability.
Oh, yes, I forgot, the WMDs. “Bush lied and people died.” Or did he? If he did, then so did those many dozens of Congress people and foreign leaders working off the same information – not to mention that no one has ever proven those WMDs weren‘t there. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as the famous “argument from ignorance” goes.
But more importantly and more apposite to today’s event was that other, oft forgotten, reason Bush went to war in Iraq – that the only way to bring true peace to the Middle East would be through democracy. He wanted to spread the democratic system preemptively. A lot of people have sneered at that idea lately, but while they were sneering Iraq has inched forward toward a democracy. It’s even turning into a (somewhat) decent place to live. That buffoon-like shoe chucker – his name is Muntazer al-Zaidi from Al-Baghdadia channel which broadcasts from Cairo – proved it. No matter what happens to al-Zaidi now (and it won’t be much if anything), it will be nothing like what would have happened to him if he had hurled a shoe at the president during the previous Iraqi administration of Saddam Hussein. As we all know, in that case, he would either have had his tongue and scrotum cut out or both, if he would have survived at all.
And that’s the point – something good has happened. Something very good.
What isn’t so clear, yet, is how history will treat George Bush. I have a suspicion it’s going to be better then a lot of people now suspect – or are willing to admit.
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133 Comments
1. MikeD:“What isn’t so clear, yet, is how history will treat George Bush. I have a suspicion it’s going to be better then a lot of people now suspect – or are willing to admit.”
I suspect you may well be right Roger. But his detractors will never admit how juvenile and mistaken they have been in their hatred. Theirs, after all, is not the party of hatred. Just ask them.
Dec 14, 2008 - 4:57 pm 2. Sally:“What isn’t so clear, yet, is how history will treat George Bush.”
This is in the hands of the Iraqi people. If they build a decent, civilized society then I predict history will view President Bush rather favorably. And if they don’t, how history treats Bush will be the least of our problems.
Dec 14, 2008 - 5:45 pm 3. NS:I wish the SOB pulled a stunt like this when Saddam Hussein was President.
Dec 14, 2008 - 5:48 pm 4. JWilliams:I agree that history will treat Bush much better than the punditry (including what passes for “journalists” today) have. But it will be after all the mythology is wiped away, and that will take generations. Only when all that’s left is the actual, written record of Bush’s accomplishments from original documents will he be vindicated. I had hoped that serious historians could exercise some professional objectivity in the near term, but having seen the books highlighted in “48 Liberal Lies about America” where textbooks actually labeled Ronald Reagan a “war-monger,” my hopes have been somewhat diminished in that regard.
It will take a concerted effort by those who have actually paid attention to the FACTS of this presidency, and those who are interested in facts and not liberal mythology, to undo the incredible amount of ignorance and paranoia generated by the left over the last 8 years (if it CAN be undone). What’s disappointing is that a good man has been largely destroyed (in this life, anyway) for craven political purposes.
Dec 14, 2008 - 5:54 pm 5. Charlie (Colorado):I’m not above repeating the comment I left elsewhere:
Dec 14, 2008 - 6:32 pm 6. NahnCee:Does anyone else remember before we went into Iraq, there was a UN team riding through the streets of Baghdad, trying to get into the various sites they were inspecting for nukes.
And some guy came bursting out of the crowd and climbed into their jeep pleading for help and asylum. There was a picture of the UN-droids sitting there frozen, looking straight ahead, with the black-haired Iraqi stretching out towards them, begging for help.
The Iraqi was pried off the UN jeep and dragged away, never to be heard of again. I’ve wondered what ever happened to him, and why none of the journalists there tried to track him down.
I sort of wish, though, that this shoe-thrower dude would have the same thing happen to him as happened to that other screaming Iraqi, whatever it was.
Dec 14, 2008 - 6:41 pm 7. Lightnin' Hopkins:Beats another hand grenade, I guess.
The incident perfectly encapsulates what a magnanimous gentleman our much-maligned president actually is. It also shows how free Iraq is today, and not a damn one of Bush’s vicious critics is responsible for that immutable fact — he is.
He will indeed be very well remembered, in terms of security and changing the face of the Middle East for the better, and will justly earn the praise and validation of history that the bookend presidents to his administration crave so much for themselves. No legacy chasing. No self-aggrandizement. Just doing his job. Funny how that works.
Dec 14, 2008 - 6:47 pm 8. Mwalimu Daudi:As the world knows now, a particularly juvenile Iraqi journalist threw a shoe at George Bush in Baghdad Sunday.
The American government-run media (formerly known as the MSM) is treating this as a joke with all of the yuks directed at Bush. But if the shoe had been aimed at the Chosen One we would have been told that this was a racist assassination plot and how conservative talk radio/FOX News was responsible for creating a “climate of hate”.
Dec 14, 2008 - 7:12 pm 9. Anita Hope:Throwing his shoes reminds one of Krushev banging his, George W. will weather the storm just as he did with the shoes & through his term in office, he
Dec 14, 2008 - 7:13 pm 10. Webrider:has a coolness that seems to keep him calm, at least to outside his inner circle. I can’t remember a President that has not had problems, he just seems to compound his.
Honest historians will analyze it all as data becomes available. Dishonest ones, will not. They will do as the Democrats have been doing ever since they got tossed out on their ears, fight against everything which might actually help the country, if it even looks like it will redound in the President’s favor.
Remember how quickly they all switched over to the other side on the war when President Bush landed on the aircraft carrier? Suddenly, the war was a loser, not over, we’re losing etc. ad infinitum. All of their efforts emboldened our enemies, and helped make it worse and a more protracted battle than it needed to be.
Wouldn’t it be nice if there were an “alternate history machine” like the Internet’s way-back machine where we could plug in variables and see how it would have gone? For instance, Democrats who actually supported America’s goals (which they overwhelmingly voted for initially), instead of developing a concerted effort to undermine it all, for fear that the President (and therefore the Republicans) would garner favorable support from the public.
I’m an independent, who normally voted for what I thought was the best person for the position. I’ve found myself virtually unable to vote for any Democrat in the last four or five years, and here in heavily blue Austin, it means I have to leave a lot of ballot positions blank.
Dec 14, 2008 - 7:50 pm 11. Ralph Woods:President Bush still has great reflexes. Dodged both shoes and never flinched. Must be carry over from his training as a fighter pilot. History will judge him in a favorable light. His detractors who loom so large in the MSM today will be little more than footnotes.
Dec 14, 2008 - 7:53 pm 12. Tuesday:That Iraqi journalist should not have been given the chance to throw the other shoe. Thank goodness the President’s reaction was fast!
I second Lightnin’ Hopkins’ post. This President will be remembered for the good he has done.
Dec 14, 2008 - 8:05 pm 13. PC14:Hopefully, over time, we’ll actually have that elusive thing called change and it will be for the better.
Just imagine an educational environment where the person standing in front of the class actually has his/her head screwed on right…so to speak.
And the students learn what a great President Dubya (why did they call him that, teach?) actually was.
And then a student observes: “Gee, no wonder those quaint things called newspapers all went out of business. They certainly deserved it, considering all those lies about a good man and one of our better President.”
Dec 14, 2008 - 8:26 pm 14. sammy small:Outside an office where I work is a framed picture of GWB walking away from the aircraft after doing a trap on the Navy carrier. It reflects command, guts, perseverance, just the right amount of attitude. It represents the image I will retain of Bush, and is the image I wish he had continued to maintain in his second term.
The victory tour of Iraq, with him barely flinching as shoes are flying by reflects the same kind of image, a fitting bookend photo of what he accomplished during his presidency.
Dec 14, 2008 - 8:38 pm 15. US Copied « DaTechguy’s Blog:[...] Roger Simon as usual gets it right. [...]
Dec 14, 2008 - 9:08 pm 16. nodakboy:Mr. Simon: while I agree generally with the tenor of your take on Bush, you can’t exactly use the “absence of evidence is not…” argument. I believe there was an official (however it’s defined) finding by U.S. officials who officially do that sort of thing, that there “were” no WMDs, during the relevant time period. Whatever that’s worth: the question, of course, is what happened to the ones he used to have, plus, how could Saddam have been so blind as to be fooled by his own scientists at times. Oh, well, the downsides of terrorizing your people: they tend to lie to you to save their own skins.
Dec 14, 2008 - 11:32 pm 17. Jake:You could do a public service by lining out in a comprehensive yet concise way the main lies told by MSMers about Bush, how silly some of them are, like the “Mission Accomplished” bait-and-switch, and the fact Bush, on WMDs, clearly quoted the British intelligence report, and didn’t cook up his own.
I know you’ve been doing this, but maybe a primer, in one place, etc.
Include the ignored real motive of Bushies wanting journalists to know Joe Wilson was married to a CIA person who got him the junket to Africa: it shows a deep and nearly traitorous cabal in State and Langley to foil the Bush administration’s foreign policy, by the phoney little trip phoney little Joe Wilson took, so he could come back and say, Nope, no sign of Saddam sniffing around for nuke-building stuff, no sirree…. Talk about absence of evidence, and taking policy differences to a new low that could involve, well, something like a crime against the state…..
Where was the Secret Service? At the very least, that second shoe should have been blocked.
Dec 14, 2008 - 11:37 pm 18. Terrye:I think Bush has been a political scapegoat for years. When he is gone and the world is still a dangerous place with nasty people in it…maybe people will realize that President Bush is a decent doing his best to do an impossible job.
I think the reporter is just another moron. The world is full of them.
Dec 15, 2008 - 4:41 am 19. Pajamas Media » The Bush Shoe Attack: A Sign of Hope?:[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]
Dec 15, 2008 - 5:11 am 20. BizzyBlog » Things I’d Like to Post About Today ….. (121508, Morning):[...] shoes thrown at President by an Iraqi journalist during Bush’s surprise visit to Iraq, from Pajamas Media’s Roger Simon — ”No matter what happens to (Muntazer) al-Zaidi now (and it won’t be much if [...]
Dec 15, 2008 - 5:12 am 21. Craig:“A sign of real hope?”
I took it as a sign of an effiminate man who has gender identity issues.
Dec 15, 2008 - 5:14 am 22. stand up and fight:If Obama becomes President Bush will be considered a saint compared to That One.
Dec 15, 2008 - 6:53 am 23. Lynn:And now I’m reading a story that they are throwing shoes at our soldiers? Somebody better nip this in the bud. I don’t think it is a sign of hope but I think it is what it is….a sign of disrespect. Any journalist who believes in the power of the pen should step up and condemn him. And don’t jump to conclusions that I think the offender should be physically harmed.
Dec 15, 2008 - 6:59 am 24. atlargeinohio:Don’t bite the hand that feeds you and don’t throw shoes at the man who helped free you.
Dec 15, 2008 - 7:27 am 25. Barry Dauphin:With my car in the shop, I’m without XM radio while I drive the rental. So, I was listening to NPR this morning. The shoe episode was related, of course, as an example of how Bush is hated everywhere (and I think it is and will be very important for MSM to hammer the storyline that Bush is hated in Iraq and Afghanistan—we will hear more of this over time, i.e., to illustrate the talking point that there was nothing redeeming about the wars). I loved the intro blurb from the reporter who said, “Every single Iraqi interviewed by NPR approved of what the journalist did”. Yeah, and Castro gets 100% of the vote too. It’s amusing that such a tag line instantly reveals the bias, not of Iraqis, but of NPR. The NPR reporters would like to throw their shoes at Bush, and a few other things too. They are simply rude in other ways.
Instead of being tortured, then executed, this journalist will spend a little time in the pokey and earn more than a few bucks off the incident. He’ll join the list of poseurs who proclaim their “subversiveness” with as much self-satisfaction as any one human being can muster. Of course, we all know what the MSM did to maintain “access” in Iraq under Saddam. Calling Eason Jordan…
Dec 15, 2008 - 7:58 am 26. Pat:Well, Barry, that’s why I won’t listen to NPR under any circumstances. I’d rather get my news from the tabloids than listen to that leftist propaganda.
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:24 am 27. cfbleachers:Quite frankly, this incident is the poster child for modern day “journalism”.
Unable to control their tantrums, incapable of expressing anything but hate and rage, useless in the field of words and persuasion, a wave of petulant children acting out and needing a timeout and adult supervision.
The world of “journalism” is now simply a cockroach infestation. Devoid of principles, a laughable code of ethics, the morally bankrupt disregard for the truth, the intentional distortions, the photoshopping of pictures, the staging of events, the forging of documents…this is an industry that requires that you lack a shred of honor to enter it, or evokes a promise to shed integrity upon admission.
Frankly, however, I see little difference between how Reagan was treated by the “sport of journalism”, I only see that they became more effective against the current President Bush and VP Cheney.
They championed Carter…a vicious little scam artist, but pilloried Reagan, a man with an enormous heart.
This game has been going on with the Marxist leaning bastards for 40 years. They lionize our enemies and unless you lean as far left as they do, you are going to get the short end of the stick. The more you stand up against leftism and global adventurism of leftists…the more you are going to get beaten on a daily basis by these traitorous vermin.
It’s a simple equation. We have allowed them to crawl into the woodwork and eat away at our foundations. Academia is equally infested. So is Hollywood.
President Bush is merely a target for their disease. Now that they have finally accomplished what they set out to do…win an election, in a big way…we can wait for the OTHER shoe to drop. That Iraqi “journalist” simply ran out of feet…to show us.
Leftism has left its mark on our society. And we couldn’t build enough roach motels now to make a dent. They checked in…but they won’t check out. Heaven help us all.
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:36 am 28. AnninCA:Legacies are, indeed, more about history than about popular opinion of the time, although in our time, Bush is not likely to be viewed positively. I tend to agree with Sally that Iraq has the most influence. If the country continues to grow democratically and remains an ally, then Bush’s legacy will be viewed more positively by people.
The story appeared to me to be a last parting shot by journalists in the US, who used it as a way to say that the war was THAT unpopular in Iraq. I heard one talk show host refer to it as attempted murder of Bush and ranted when a caller questioned that exaggeration.
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:43 am 29. Maggie:History will treat W fairly. The shameful thing is W was not forcefully defended by Republicans. I’m thinking specifically about energy policy and social security reform. These are looming disasters where W was right on policy but beaten back by critics.
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:45 am 30. AnninCA:Maggie, I would think the very use of the term, “looming disaster,” is laughable at this stage.
It may appear to be a drop in the debt bucket compared to what’s going on right now.
I keep reminding people. The state governments haven’t yet gotten in line. But they will.
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:54 am 31. Wellspring:Many of my most ardent Bush-hating friends are suddenly denying that they ever hated him. They simply “disagreed with his policies”. They’re eager to turn the page so that Obama can be shielded from like treatment.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:02 am 32. Laura:Bush doesn’t give a darn what people think of him. I admire that so much, especially in comparison to the arrogant and humourless Obama. Let’s see someone do that when Barry is president….his billyclub-yielding Nation of Islam bodyguards will take him out in a second.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:07 am 33. cfbleachers:On the WMD issue, I always wondered why Ian Pacepa’s information didn’t get more play. Was he unreliable? Are his facts unsupportable?
I also wondered why Joe Wilson was able to get away with what amounted to a complete wholesale scam. The Plame non-issue, became a wag the dog story that diverted attention away from the fact that Wilson set up a web of lies…which was covered up by the Plame story, itself a web of lies.
Continuing on, I marvel at the “framing” of the Iraq/Saddam removal as the “Bush/Cheney” pursuit of imperial evil. (blood for oil, etc.)…and the universal sweep under the rug of Clinton, Gore, Berger, Albright, Cohen INSISTENCE that Saddam Hussein was the greatest threat to mankind, a “five pound bag” away from wiping out Washington DC, a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER to hand off weapons to global terrorists, and that taking him out of office…”regime change” was a necessity for our very survival.
Lastly, I find it a bit odd…to say the least…that the leftist cadre of con men were pounding the incessant “quagmire” drumbeat about us going into Afghanistan to root out the Taliban…THEN…but NOW…not a peep. As a theater of operations, these folks who keep “grim milestones” seem to think Afghanistan would have been a walk in the park compared to Iraq, and it’s “where we should have been all along”. Yeah, right.
As if they would not have used the exact same daily hammer on President Bush had he wound up engaging the Iran-imported insurgents, if only we had been fighting them in the caves of Afghanistan…no, no…of course, they would have called the mounting losses heroic. Give me a break.
These are the same whimpering leftists who whined that Iraqi babies weren’t getting milk and medicine because of our big, bad sanctions…then went silent when Kofi Annan and his son were caught in the Oil for Food scandal.
You can’t get an honest assessment of the facts on the ground from leftists, because THEIR agenda is more important than your right to know. They defraud you on the front end, then cover up and defraud you when the facts are incovnenient to their “message”.
They said that they perhaps could cause a 15% swing in an election, but they underestimated themselves. If they COMPLETELY sold out…they could cause a 25% swing, all they had to do was stop PRETENDING to be objective and just tell outright lies. It worked. They are openly fraudulent, and really…nobody cares very much. Not enough to do anything about it, anyway.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:18 am 34. Ann:Crazy old coot.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:19 am 35. Jaci:This is the first time I’ve read this perspective, that this is actually proof-positive of the progress being made in Iraq. I’ve heard stories from my military friends who have served there throughout the war, and the stark difference between then and now, but this is such a watermark in the progress in free speech there.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:23 am 36. fred:In this country, if you did that it’s called aggravated assault. Depending on the judge, you could do jail time. Americans who cheer this sort of act are called S C U M.
The Arabs are just being Arabs. Nothing new there.
Only the LeftyLoonMediaAcademia could call this act of BDS a heroic act. They’re worse than the Arabs.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:23 am 37. Promoguy:So I’m at a family, well wife’s family Christmas party, with some outside folks representing the greatest group of libs that the San Fernando Valley allows to exist. So some of us were sitting around in a small group, when one of the permanently unemployed actor members of the family thought he’d get the dig in by saying something like “did you see that reporter throw a shoe at Bush.” To which I immediately replied, yeah how about that, pretty funny and there’s a nice video of it on the internet. They all shut up. They wanted to argue and all I wanted to do was finish my Jameson’s on ice.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:27 am 38. calendar:So we had to sacrifice how many thousands of America’s best so we can proudly proclaim that Bush won’t cut someone’s balls off? Still, after all these years, I hate that this is the best (or at least the first) the pro-war crowd has to offer: At least Saddam Hussein isn’t in charge.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:29 am 39. Barry 0351:Iraq be damned the whole region ain’t worth one drop of American blood, necer was, never will be.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:31 am 40. Markus:Iraq as well as the middle east is nothing more than a sheethole.
Point 1: The person who threw the shoe was not an American, perhaps not even a liberal or leftist. Most peoples around the world resent being invaded and occupied by foreigners, even if that invasion and occupation is intended to improve their lives, and may very well do that (slowly, very slowly). They don’t like having men who don’t speak Arabic knocking on their doors to search their homes without a warrant, even for the purpose of protecting their neighborhood from terrorism. They don’t care about “religious freedom,” when that freedom means dealing with the consequences of brutal religious violence that had previously been tamped down by a brutal dictator. They dismiss “freedom” and the lifting of sanctions when it means completely unreliable electricity and public services for several years. And so on and so forth.
Point 2: “The only way to bring true peace to the Middle East would be through democracy”
It’s a noble sentiment, the 21st Century version of the white man’s burden, but it’s simply wrong. Instituting popular elections of political leadership does not mean the people will choose leaders who embrace liberalism, separation of powers, minority rights, rule of law, etc.? Tell it to the Israelis and Palestinians whose hopes for a Middle East peace were dashed by the victory of Hamas in free and fair elections in January 2006. One would also think that if democracy and western culture were the main thing lacking in the Middle East, then Muslim immigrants to Europe wouldn’t be as radicalized as they were.
Point 3: My hunch is the two most likable, decent, wish they were my neighbor Presidents in my lifetime have probably been Reagan and the first President Bush. Dubya seems like he has a bit of a mean streak when he is on his own turf.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:47 am 41. NCBob:God bless Lord Obama (PBUH). It will be so nice not to have to listen to the idiotic anti-Bush poison that the ultra-left wingers spout and view as wisdom.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:57 am 42. Jonathan Hemlock:There will be no criticism of the president no matter how inept and corrupt he is because that would be racist. No more bad news because the media won’t allow it. It’s going to be great! And all that irrational hate will eat at the guts of those with BDS as they realize that a Chicago thief with a hidden past is still a Chicago thief and not a savior and just because he is black and a Harvard grad doesn’t mean much when every one of his appointees (including, Biden) is selling influence.
It is going to be great!
Clearly this reporter was approved by the Iraqis.
What else need be known?
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:03 am 43. fred:So, Markus, your point is? That the Iraqis preferred the tough guy Saddam and we should have left the murdering bastard and his even more sadistic children in charge.
“Dubya” has been nice enough to not to fight back against the viciousness of attacks from the Left the way Reagan did. Reagan did not stand up like a bulls eye before the Lefty Media. He took ‘em on and skinned ‘em.
“Dubya” was destroyed by you people because, to our frustration, he would not fight back. It’s one of the reasons why we Republicans are furious with him.
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:08 am 44. Paul M.:I was surprised that the reporter only threw two shoes – don’t cockroaches have six legs?
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:13 am 45. Roger L Simon:“Tell it to the Israelis and Palestinians whose hopes for a Middle East peace were dashed by the victory of Hamas in free and fair elections in January 2006. One would also think that if democracy and western culture were the main thing lacking in the Middle East, then Muslim immigrants to Europe wouldn’t be as radicalized as they were.”
Markus, you might want to read the “argument from ignorance” linked above.
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:16 am 46. Jbl:I will miss President Bush. He has been faithful to the nation and he’s kept us so safe that we don’t even realize the threat that still exists. Every president makes mistakes, and Bush has made his share, but everything he did, he did in good faith, and I can’t think of anyone on the public scene, including The Messiah Obama who could have done better than he.
The Messiah seems to agree since he’s keeping most of Bush’s policies.
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:23 am 47. Jbl:“Does anyone else remember before we went into Iraq, there was a UN team riding through the streets of Baghdad…And some guy came bursting out of the crowd and climbed into their jeep pleading for help and asylum. There was a picture of the UN-droids sitting there frozen, looking straight ahead, with the black-haired Iraqi stretching out towards them, begging for help.”
I remember that clearly. The man was holding a blue book, like a lab book.
The press did not have the curiosity to find out about him. Wasn’t it CNN who admitted they covered up for Saddam so they could stay there?
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:26 am 48. Arthur:I don’t even like Bush, but he is our President, and that shoe-thrower is an idiot, and the secrete service once again looks inept, they should have shot him for threatening the president. what if there had been an explosive in those shoes?
Dec 15, 2008 - 10:57 am 49. deguello:The only problems with the”juvenile” attack are: he missed,or Cheney pulled Bush’s puppet strings lightning quick,and second, the journalist should have rememberedthe nature of his target, and used a sack of manure . What a waste of a perfectly good pair of shoes!
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:32 am 50. ricpic:In many parts of the world, and the middle east is high on the list, it is better to be hated and FEARED than to be loved. The fact that this Arab felt emboldened enough to throw a shoe at the President of The United States is a very bad sign. It indicates that the United States is not feared sufficiently. Make no mistake, this was not about Bush, it was about an act of absolute effrontery to the President of The United States. Unless you are perceived to be the strong horse, in the Arab world you are in for continual assault and humiliation. Have fun, Barry.
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:34 am 51. John the Libertarian:Who says there were no WMDs? Who sez? Another flippin’ intel expert? S’cuse me while I barf.
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:36 am 52. Ron:Jbl: Yes. That should have been an enormous scandal in professional journalism circles, but in fact was barely noted and as far as I can tell, there were never any real repercussions/brand damage to CNN.
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:38 am 53. Longjohn:Wow, that was some pretty desperate Spin ….
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:54 am 54. myna:Is this mean people can throw shoes to all these ugly americans like Keith “Me..Me” Olbermann, Harry “Loser” Reid, Queen Bee Nancy Pelosi, Chris “Dough boy” Dodds, and all these corrupt politician living in DC?
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:58 am 55. BadAndy:Nobody threw shoes at Hitler. Ergo, Bush is NOT Hitler. Now, somebody tell the fools at DailyKos.
Dec 15, 2008 - 12:07 pm 56. WestGuard:I loved President Bush’s cool headed witty response “I can only report that they were a size 10″
Dec 15, 2008 - 12:42 pm 57. BDS defined, in a shoe-throwing | The Anchoress:Hopefully the ill mannered little boy was made to walk home barefooted where his parents slapped him silly with their shoes for shaming them and the Iraqi president.
[...] Lots of talk, of course, about the shoe-throwing incident in Iraq. The point has been made, enough, I think, that this Iraqi reporter would never have been free enough to throw his shoes under Saddam. [...]
Dec 15, 2008 - 1:09 pm 58. Markus:Fred — my point was that people don’t like foreigners telling them how to run their own affairs. Even more, they hate foreigners actually running their affairs. And if life gets a lot worse for a long period of time after the foreigners take over, they go absolutely bananas and do crazy things like throw their shoes at the leader of the foreigners, or applaud those that do.
Roger, thanks for the link, always good to learn a thing or two. Don’t really see how “lack of evidence for one hypothesis does not prove another hypothesis” applies to what I said any more than it applies to any other conclusion anyone else might have. Perhaps I could have been more equivocal: “Thus far, a preponderance of the evidence tends to indicate…blah blah blah” I should have just laid out the facts and left it for others to discern my point, my conclusion, my theory, my hunch. Just the facts. Palestinians were given free elections; they elected extremists. Many Arabs living or studying in liberal democracies embrace radical Islam. When an Arab throws two shoes at President Bush; many Iraqis treat him as a hero.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081215144834440817.html
Dec 15, 2008 - 1:20 pm 59. Pat J:I’m holding out on someone eventually throwing the book at W.
Dec 15, 2008 - 1:26 pm 60. katiejane:Anyone else wonder what the reaction of the left would be if some newsman did the same type of thing after Obama is president? No doubt we’d hear the anguish of how disrespectful it was and how the offender should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for assaulting a President.
Dec 15, 2008 - 1:50 pm 61. NahnCee:I can’t wait to see what the Arabs throw at Obama when they’re feeling frisky … besides hurling that “n” word which they’re already taking out and dusting off to use when they want an easy put-down of a sitting American President
Dec 15, 2008 - 3:44 pm 62. The Historian:LESS THAN A GOODIE TWO SHOES
It takes zero courage and even less intelligence to throw shoes in a free society:
http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2008/12/no-guts-no-shoes-no-glory.html
Dec 15, 2008 - 5:10 pm 63. Mike Reynolds:Here’s a prediction. There will be a fad in Iraq of throwing shoes at GI patrols.
Dec 15, 2008 - 5:12 pm 64. Lightnin' Hopkins:Sooner rather than later, some lamebrain will throw a shoe at a GI who is…ummm ‘on edge’ from having been SHOT at all day & there will be deaths. Thata could happen in the US, too, if “useful idiots” start throwing footwear & catch the Secret service in a jumpy mood.
“I’m holding out on someone eventually throwing the book at W.”
Good thinking. Going cold turkey on the BDS would be too rough on the system. It’s much better to ween yourself off slowly by focusing on a happy point in the future such as a ‘war crimes’ trial. The “world can’t wait” but you can, Pat. Some sweet day it’ll be your time to shine when the evil Bush gets his – just hang in there.
Hope!
Dec 15, 2008 - 5:48 pm 65. Ann:President Bush was physically attacked in what should have been a controlled environment in a foreign country. Regardless of the details, that should be considered a serious situation.
Nonetheless, the situation has revealed that the obama KADs are cool with physical objects being thrown at POTUS at close range. Just hope they keep that in mind in the months ahead in case anything is tossed bambi’s way.
Dec 15, 2008 - 6:09 pm 66. Deputy Dan:One hopes the Secret Service guy who responded woodenly after the second shoe was hurled has been reassigned to the Minot N.D. field office or just fired.
The correct response would have been two to the chest, one to the head on the erstwhile Islamofascist journalist while his arm came back for Pitch No. 2.
The only dignified response to violence is overwhelming counter-violence, and the SS screwed the pooch on this one. Big Time.
W was cool under fire and funny apres fire. The SS needs to relearn the OODA Loop.
Dec 15, 2008 - 6:26 pm 67. 888:George Bush would never hide his birth certificate to mock the U.S. Constitution and steal an election.
George Bush is a good and kind man. Everything he’s done while in office were for THE PEOPLE. They weren’t for SELF, unlike his opponents and critics who only think of themselves to further their liberal, elitist cause and not the cause of ALL people. You know who these selfish people are who say they speak for everyone, but really only speak for the liberal establishment — Pelosi, Reid, Michael Moore, Sean Penn, Barney Frank, Oliver Stone, Al Gore, Andrea Mitchell, etc., etc.
George Bush has made this country safe and more powerful than it was before. Shame on those like the Iraqi shoe thrower who has no gratitude to Bush who was just trying to make the shoe thrower’s life better than it was ever under Saddam.
Also, if people are going to put Bush down for the “failure of the last 8 years” as Obama loves to say, then give President Bush credit for the low gas prices we are all now enjoying, as well as the safety, defense and protection from domestic and international terrorists bent on eliminating Americans and Jews. And, you auto workers who are inefficient and over-paid: give President Bush credit for wanting to bail your spoiled arses out of the depths you’ve put yourselves into. You union people always want and want, but don’t say enough ‘thank you’s’ to people who are trying to help you.
This country clearly has a lot of ingrates. George Bush is not one of them. He is true to God, country and the American people. That’s why the liberals hate him.
Dec 15, 2008 - 7:15 pm 68. 888:As far as the WMD issue: over a 100,000 Kurds gassed and killed by Saddam Hussein is evidence he did, indeed, have weapons of mass destruction.
The liberal establishment love to overlook those Iraqi Kurds mass-murdered by Saddam because it proves them wrong when it comes to WMD. But, no matter how they try to hide the truth and historical fact, the truth is there for everyone to see.
Dec 15, 2008 - 7:18 pm 69. Ramp Rat:“SHOE DOWN AT THE PODIUM!” I THINK WE GOT A 30 MINUTE WESTERN AND OUR CAST. ROG? WANT TO DIRECT!
Dec 15, 2008 - 7:20 pm 70. fred:CHECK6
Many of our Liberal/Left journalists are jealous of this guy, because he had the cojones to actually assault the man they would love to assault. But they are too cowardly to do it. That makes the Iraqi journalist, crazy as he is, more of a man than the pussies in our MSM corps. Cowards the lot of ‘em! No can of Febreeze could cover up the stink of their shit.
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:02 pm 71. Dr. Shalit:Roger -
I found the whole thing to be HIGHLY SYMBOLIC. In Arab/Muslim cultures, hitting something with a shoe or throwing a shoe at something is the HEIGHT of CONTEMPT for that thing. The “reporter” tried such a Humiliation – AND FAILED! President Bush “Ducked” – i.e. Showing Flexibility – AND – President Bush joked about the incident – MOCKING the ATTACKER – Good Show President George W. Bush. Knowingly or unknowingly, you showed the reporter for what he is – the inheritor of an inflexible culture with NO SENSE of HUMOR. Much of Iraq has passed him by, thanks to you.
-S-
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:03 pm 72. mister b:Jesus Tapdancing Christ…There are wankers in every country!
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:13 pm 73. Dr. Shalit:#63 Lightning Hopkins
For what it is worth, In Iraq, GWB finished his father’s unfinished war at a cost of the US D-Day casualties over the course of 5+ years. The life of every US Serviceman/woman is a cost the nation would RATHER not pay – AND – will, if necessary. From a historic, military standpoint IRAQ was NOT expensive. Was it worth it? I leave that verdict to history – that of the US and Iraq as we move forward.
Dr. Shalit
Dec 15, 2008 - 8:19 pm 74. life long dem:To me, as a former journalist, this is simply unprofessional behavior. Any agency or newspaper worth it’s salt would fire a reporter on the spot for behavior like this at a press conference. This man has not only besmirched the reputations of every other Iraqi journalist who has done their job with integrity and respect for their profession, he has lessened the credibility the profession as whole. If you have feelings, you write an opinion piece, one does not behave in this kind of childish and out of control manner.
The mob mentality laughing and jeering at this disgusting display is just one more symptom of the degradation of what was once a highly respected profession. One only need look at the old adage, “report the story, don’t become part of it.”
Shame on any one who considers themselves a “jounalist” applauding this display.
Dec 15, 2008 - 9:54 pm 75. glenn:Actually when I first heard the story on the radio I thought; What the hell is Dan Rather doing in Iraq?
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:08 pm 76. Rachel Peepers:I guess I have a different take than any of you, perhaps because, in my mind, it changed the course of history.
For me, the first show throw was the first shot.
And no secret service people reacted.
For me, the second shoe was the second shot.
And no secret service people reacted.
And then there was the head shot. And then it was too late.
But that’s just me.
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:32 pm 77. solomonpal:Maggie:
History will treat W fairly.
No it won’t . It will be re-written.
And GW just responds in his typical doufuss way. And for this we lost 4000 men and ruined our economy? Democracy for muslims and the middle east? What a fantasy. A war of annihilation I can understand.
Dec 15, 2008 - 11:51 pm 78. Nelda in God's country:First time I’ve read your writings, Mr. Simon and you just got my attention! You expressed my thoughts and feelings about President Bush so well! Thank you, thank you for saying what has needed to be said for a long time, and so I’m just glad the shoe was tossed! It takes a mature, confident person to react only with humor and a smile like W. did!
Dec 16, 2008 - 12:21 am 79. Terrye:solomonpal:
Wow, that remark of yours was so bizarre on so many levels I hardly know how to respond. For one thing, this idiot is a journalist. And journalists lacking negative news from Iraq just decided to make some of their own. There are literally millions of people in Iraq and in the last couple of days I have heard and read of many of them saying they are ashamed of this man’s actions.
For another, what did the war in Iraq have to do with subprime lending? The truth is the money spent in Iraq was a drop in the bucket to the money lost in bad investments in real estate right here in this country.
I do think that the rise in energy prices helped put pressure on the economy and made it more difficult for people to pay off debt, but the truth is if Saddam had stayed in power those prices might have been even higher.
As for the war of annihilation…that is wrong on so many levels I can only assume you are trying and failing to be funny.
Dec 16, 2008 - 5:09 am 80. Terrye:Rachel:
Those were not shots, if they had been the man would not have been in the room. Was the Secret Service supposed to ask everyone to remove their shoes?
Dec 16, 2008 - 5:10 am 81. BC:“He wanted to spread the democratic system preemptively.”!?!
You mean like, “Ok boys, we just invaded your country to remove your leader on good evidence that he, well….actually, we just made up the evidence because he was a pain in the butt to us strategically. But you should be thanking us for removing such a brutal dictator. Yes, we know he was an even more brutal dictator when we supported him back in the 80’s, but that was then, this is now — ’nuff said. Yes we know that there was a little bit of collateral damage and maybe a few innocents got caught in the crossfire, but it was all for the greater good — you have a democracy now and for that, again, you should be thanking us. Yeah, well, maybe things didn’t go as smoothly as we had planned, but feel free to throw shoes at us if you want to be ungrateful — just remember that if you had ever thrown shoes at Hussein, you would be killed. Now, if you throw shoes, you will be only badly beaten up. Again, you should be very grateful….”
Dec 16, 2008 - 5:39 am 82. Edmund Jenks (MAXINE):“What isn’t so clear, yet, is how history will treat George Bush. I have a suspicion it’s going to be better then a lot of people now suspect – or are willing to admit.”
If only he could have pulled out a veto pen and used it as easily and with the athletic deft he showed he could dodge a shoe! …
… if he had, the way history will treat “W” would have been not only favorable, but great.
It always seemed with George, that he was always best on his feet.
He starts the importance of his presidency standing in the rubble of the World Trade Center Towers with his arm draped around the shoulders of an old time firefighter, stating, “I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.”
George W. Bush ends his presidency ducking a couple of shoes hurled at him by a reporter in Iraq, turning the situation into a lesson in Democracy by first stating “I’m OK,” “All I can report is it is a size 10,” and then later to reporters on how he understood the act, “It’s like going to a political rally and have people yell at you. It’s a way for people to draw attention,” Bush said. “I don’t know what the guy’s cause was. I didn’t feel the least bit threatened by it.”
Lesson – In a democracy it is always OK to express a difference of opinion (even though the reporter that threw the shoes, who was escorted out by Iraqi officials, was promptly beaten).
Dec 16, 2008 - 8:41 am 83. Giant Jelly Fish Killer:The Iraqi people were liberated from the grip of bloody murderous tyrant and dictator (for whom Joseph Stalin was a role model). The point is not that the reporter would have been shot and tortured for throwing shoes and now he would not (that’s just one piece of a bigger picture). The big picture is that the Iraqi people were, indeed, liberated from a dictator for whom torture, oppression, and terror, were the lynchpins of his power. This liberation was achieved through the will of President George Bush, the people United States, and, of course, our Military.
I know that it is hard to swallow for most on the left – tied as they are to the vitriolic and corrosive “Bush Lied”, “Halliburton”, and “no blood for oil”, myths so successfully disseminated by the media. Adolescent righteous indignation in the face of the rather muddy exigencies of life will always be compelling to some.
But the fact remains that Bush had good faith basis to believe Saddam Hussein was developing a weapons program. Moreover, while not very well articulated by Bush (and, Lord, I wish he did a better job of it), the Iraq war was, indeed, one part of a “Strategic” plan to create a stable Arab democratic state as a catalyst for change that would, hopefully, ensure greater safety here at home, while bringing representative government to a people who have lived for generations of authoritarian rule of one stripe or the other. To recoil at this, or to to attempt to diminish it without qualification, is to buy into an carefully crafted mythology; and, in my humble opinion, a symptom of a malaise quickly erroding the foundation of western civilation, which, when it crumbles, lies only deluge, onslaught and the return of history.
And, you know, I would not go so far as to wish the current generation of Iraqis to be grateful (though I suspect there is visceral understanding of the enormity of change wrought but for reasons of pride or anger they will not acknowledge it). That’s fine and perhaps appropriate, as noted, the process was, and will continue to be, messy, and our strategic policy in the region not always so altrusitic. It is fatal flaw in the US psyche that we always need to be approved of or loved by the world. I would be happy with, say, a majority of my fellow citizens being able, even if they do not agree for philosophical reasons, e.g., pacifism, isolationism, to view the situation with some, perhaps grudging, objectivity – and not be blinded by incoherent and demented rage at a man who tried his best to keep us safe and, by and large, succeeded.
So, thank you, George Bush, and may God bless you.
Dec 16, 2008 - 9:18 am 84. Lightnin' Hopkins:Dr. Shalit:
So George W. Bush was just finishing Daddy’s war. Got it. Thanks for the insight and the scare caps.
(sighs and mutters into coffee)
Dec 16, 2008 - 9:24 am 85. David W. Lincoln:Actually, the shoe throwing is more indicative of what has stunted cultural growth for 14 centuries in various locales. So, instead of blaming Bush, et al., take a look at what has arrayed itself against this doughty, stalwart and intrepid amalgam.
As long as Arab Aryanism, or those whom Orianna Fallaci called the “Sons of allah”, continues to treat life like it is only like the geography of the Arabian Peninsula (which, by the way is an indication of how Greeks and Napoleon viewed history – namely geography) – they will continue to sacrifice the future to the past.
Dec 16, 2008 - 9:41 am 86. Pat J:83. Giant Jelly Fish Killer:
Dec 16, 2008 - 10:08 am 87. Jack Sams:—————————–
You’re right. Instead of throwing shoes, the Iraqi people should be thanking the U.S. for what we did to them.
I think the writer of this article is full of __ __ __ __
Dec 16, 2008 - 10:17 am 88. Perry Stroyka:When word of this first got out, they reported (accurately) that this newsman was Egyptian. But that does not fit the narrative, he must be an angry Iraqi? man whose valiant expression of dissent, sticks it to the man. Now there is no longer any mcMention of his mcEgyptian origins, just mcMention of every mcIraqi mcParaphrenalia they can find. “He worked at mcBagdhadi mcnewspaper, and mcfeels like all mcagitprops we have here in mcNew York, Mcshago, McS.F, and McL.A.etc. And now blogs are playing right along, following through with the narrative, discussing it in terms of ‘Arab” customs. Its premise is false. The whole thing is tailored to satisfy the leftist agenda, just [poorly] depicted in some quasi-sandy-vernacular.
An even better outcome is President Bush catching the shoes and hurling them right back at this Egyptian aparatchik p.o.s. But who comes prepared to catch shoes at a press gathering?
I guess thats what the press wants, a stage to act out their “activism”. Yeah right, ‘activist’ press conferences.
O, but wait, we can’t have any shoes thrown at the 0ne, the messiah, the saviour, now can we? And what of those who might?
Dec 16, 2008 - 10:38 am 89. Neokon:Yes NahnCee, his name was Adnan Abdul Karim Enad. Hans Blix, curse upon him, commented that Iraqis should find more “elegant” ways to approach UN personnel.
Dec 16, 2008 - 10:51 am 90. don:Thus, the Bush Derangement Syndrome Era ends and the Obama Derangement Syndrome Era begins.
Dec 16, 2008 - 12:25 pm 91. Rachel Peepers:Terrye,
I guess my point went over your head. I was talking about my personal emotional reaction to the incident. The slowness of the secret service to react probably was the reason I likened the shoe attack to the Kennedy assassination.
I can’t understand your sarcasm, “What do you want? Everybody to take off their shoes?”
Here’s what I want. The next time you read one of my comments I’d like you to take your head out of your ass.
Dec 16, 2008 - 12:38 pm 92. vivo:Roger L. Simon:
We can tell from your article that you’ve been licking Bush’s ass all this time. You think the incident makes Bush look good. To whom? All his loyal followers. But the SYMBOLISM is more important. The shoe throwing shows how much Middle Easterners HATE Bush and all he represents: his stand for killing thousands of Iraqi people and American soldiers with no remorse. Bush deserves to be buried under millions of shoes with soles full of . . . He’ll laugh it off in his sick dementia.
Dec 16, 2008 - 1:35 pm 93. Spencer de Vere:The shoe-chucking Iraqi’s supporters are screaming that his action was an exercise in “free speech”. If so, he shouldn’t be offended or annoyed if, after he is released, someone who objected to his attack on bush clobbering HIM with a Wellington boot, or better, something with hobnails. Perhaps then will come a glimmering that there is a vast difference between actual free speech and boot-throwing thuggery.
Dec 16, 2008 - 2:07 pm 94. David S:Bush and his supporters don’t seem to understand that he has taken the USA from a respected and financially secure place in the world, to the most contemptible nation on the planet.
Bush has ruined our budget, our reputation in the world, our Constitutional rights, and our military. He has moved aggressively to destroy the economy, and has been any enemy of free people throughout the world.
History will not look kindly on a President responsible for flushing America down the proverbial toilet.
Dec 16, 2008 - 3:19 pm 95. 888:Vivo (92): You and millions like you have been totally manipulated (mind controlled) by the mainstream media who fail to report that Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait are allied with the U.S., and we have no problems with these and other countries in the Gulf. What you are seeing in the news today is one small group in Iraq protesting and hero-worshipping the shoe thrower, while the majority in Iraq support the troops’ staying in their country.
I lived in the Gulf (Bahrain and UAE) for 5 years, and what you see on TV and what you are being fed are nonsense. We are not hated there. That’s a lie created and perpetuated by the liberal establishments. Our military bases in Bahrain and Qatar are just like our military bases in Korea and Japan. We have Bahrainis and Qataris working for us, just like we have Iraqis working for us. What you and people like you who perpetuate these lies, do is damage our strong friendships and relationships in the Middle East. It’s not only the U.S. military who live and work in the Middle East, but thousands of American, British and other western expats who have no problems living amongst and working with Arabs and Muslims.
Go watch the Pentagon News to get the true insight and learn of our accomplishments in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East and Africa. That’s not a propaganda network — it’s a truth network that shows actual news as they are happening — not op-editorials from left-wing reporters like in MSNBC and CBS.
Dec 16, 2008 - 3:36 pm 96. Lightnin' Hopkins:vivo, *you* are the demented one. And sadly, you are not alone. It’s illustrative that both the words ’symbolism’ and ‘hate’ in your post are in caps. That’s all I see and hear from the base of my former party anymore.
When President-elect Obama becomes President Obama in a month or so I will loyally oppose most of his policies, but I will also treat him with respect as both a fellow American and as the POTUS. The last thing I will do is wish he was “buried,” literally or figuratively, in *anything.* To anonymously post such a twisted sentiment about any President of The United States reveals a sick and adolescent mind at work. I feel sorry for you, man, I really do.
Dec 16, 2008 - 3:41 pm 97. myth buster:He should be convicted of assault, but not for insulting a foreign leader. It isn’t in the American spirit for people to be thrown in jail for insulting our President, so I would advise the Iraqi prosecutors to drop those charges.
Dec 16, 2008 - 7:50 pm 98. Meanwhile, Back in the Islamic World | One from the Peanut Gallery:[...] “Shoes for Bush” by Roger Simon, which notes that the shoe-chucker in the video below was: …Muntazer al-Zaidi from Al-Baghdadia channel which broadcasts from Cairo – proved it. No matter what happens to al-Zaidi now (and it won’t be much if anything), it will be nothing like what would have happened to him if he had hurled a shoe at the president during the previous Iraqi administration of Saddam Hussein. As we all know, in that case, he would either have had his tongue and scrotum cut out or both, if he would have survived at all. [...]
Dec 17, 2008 - 1:55 am 99. vivo:95. 888:
You make sound the military bases look like Disneyland. I take it from your word. But the pictures shown by the “evil” media are worth 1,000 words . . .
Dec 17, 2008 - 5:10 am 100. vivo:96. Lightnin’ Hopkins:
” I will loyally oppose most of his policies, but I will also treat him with respect as both a fellow American and as the POTUS.”
Sorry, but Bush is a criminal that should have been impeached and deserves NO respect at all. Why does he have a 70+% disapproval rating?? If you were an Iraqi that disapproved of Saddam, would you oppose his policies and RESPECT him??
Get off your high chair and be real.
Dec 17, 2008 - 5:17 am 101. Irak: La preuve par la chaussure (The clod probably did Bush a favor) « jcdurbant:[...] Shoes for Bush – a sign of real hope Roger L Simon December 14, 2008 [...]
Dec 17, 2008 - 5:18 am 102. lipstick on my pig:The thing is, President Bush smiled as he ducked. And that, more than anything, must rile the insipid, weak-minded left more than anything else. They want anger! They demand emotion! They want to hug their teddies and cry sooo much…
Dec 17, 2008 - 5:29 am 103. Webrider:100 vivo
Your statement that Bush is a criminal that should have been impeached, exists only in the fever swamp that is the leftist attitudes in this country which are aided and abetted by the MSM agenda. People like you, aren’t thinkers, they are just “I think it, therefore it must be” emos. You cannot name anything which Bush and his administration have done which is illegal. In fact, it has been one of the cleanest administrations of recent years (in terms of actual criminal conduct resulting in loss of jobs in the administration etc.)
In short, you can’t see what has transpired, nor are you willing to. You’re much more comfortable sitting there nursing your conspiracy theories, lies and distortions that salve your conscience for being an ineffective fool.
Dec 17, 2008 - 7:51 am 104. Neokon:@vivo: “Why does he have a 70+% disapproval rating??” Occam’s razor – because people are told he is bad? The elites hate him and most people let the elites tell them what to think. It’s easier than having to form your own opinion.
@David S: To the extent America is a “contemptible nation” it is only because of people like you who make your country look bad.
You are wrong. I’m a european. I loved America enough to leave my stagnant and cynical continent and move my family over here. President Bush was a positive factor in that decision. A man who actually does something for the security of his citizens and for democracy abroad, when so many say that is wrong. God bless him. I’m very proud to be an American, now as much as ever.
I cannot understand what you think you accomplish by bad-mouthing your country. It just seems destructive.
Dec 17, 2008 - 9:04 am 105. Webrider:neokon +100
Dec 17, 2008 - 10:44 am 106. EdGi:I’m not sure if the shoe guy is a saddam baathist/sadr/brotherhood alliance mouth or a conservative republican, his hostility to Bush for destroying the good times under Saddam being similar to their hostility for Bush destroying the party brand. Actually, I think the media could also find nazis in postwar Germany equally hostile to Roosevelt and the “evil” Truman.
Dec 17, 2008 - 12:18 pm 107. Pat J:You cannot name anything which Bush and his administration have done which is illegal.
——————————
Really? I’ll bet I could.
Outing a covert CIA agent
Dec 17, 2008 - 1:13 pm 108. 888:Illegal wiretapping
U.S. Attorney Firings
Making torture official U.S. Policy.
Invading another country.
Right on, Neokon (104)!
Vivo (99), it’s amazing how you and your colleagues on the far-left have been brainwashed by the media. I’ve gotta hand it to the MSM, though – they’ve really been successful in controlling so many vulnerable minds. Vivo, if you ever get a chance, pay a visit to the Gulf countries so you can witness and experience more a few pictures.
Dec 17, 2008 - 2:08 pm 109. Neokon:I have to say this: a LOT of people in Sweden are pro-America and strongly support the war on terror, but you’d never know it by reading newspapers or watching TV – it is simply taboo.
Dec 17, 2008 - 2:40 pm 110. Webrider:107 Pat J.
See, that’s the thing about emotwits like most of the left is. Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes “fact”. The Bush administration did NOT out a “covert CIA Agent”. Valerie Plame was NOT a covert agent. And, it was Richard Armitage, a hater of the Bush Administration that leaked her name.
There was no “illegal wiretapping”, there were efforts to change things, and all the hysteria surrounding it was against the changes. FISA rules needed to be updated, and they were albeit not enough. In fact, the man charged with upholding US law under the Bush admin would not agree to the changes (Ashcroft).
The “US Attorney firings were NOT illegal, you idiot. They serve at the pleasure of the President. Go show your outrage for the fact that CLINTON FIRED EVERYONE OF THEM, SAVE ONE (Michael Chertoff.) And, Clinton fired them “all” to keep the investigation being run about his illegal dealings in Arkansas from bearing fruit. THAT was a CRIME.
The Bush administration never made torture official US policy. In fact, they asked to have certain things better defined, but were unable to get it accomplished. Waterboarding is thought to be torture by some (such as McCain), but most do not agree, and our own military routinely submits members undergoing rigorous special forces training to it. You may think it’s torture, but personally, I don’t (and certainly hope I never get into a position where I would have to endure it), that being said Kahlid Mohammed got what he deserved. Also, the very claim that some make about it “putting our service members at risk” is completely bogus and a straw man. One, we’re not fighting a Geneva Convention war with a regular army, and since when did these seventh century scumbags EVER accord any of our captured service members ANY decent treatment?
Invading another country? Hmmm, let’s see, the Bush administration sought and received permission from Congress. They went to the UN several times, and won a supporting vote there from the Security Council (Syria abstained), even though I don’t think that we need the UN for anything like this to make it “legal”. Bottom line, they did it right and it was NOT illegal.
Go back to your pablum infested womb and suck your thumb for solace about the fact that your “facts” are nothing more than screaming rants by opposition (and the MSM) to defame a man who stood tall, and has kept this country safe since 9/11, which is a hell of a lot more than YOU ever did for it.
Dec 17, 2008 - 3:44 pm 111. Terrye:PatJ:
My God, what a fool. I think Webrider did a good job in his post in response to you, but suffice to say that the program you call illegal pertaining to wiretapping has been supported by the Congress. And that includes Obama.
The US does not torture people. And the invasion of Iraq was not illegal.
The thing is the left will latch onto this guy like he is a hero, but they will completely ignore all the Iraqis who disagree with the shoe thrower. In fact he is a Sadrist who thinks Che Guevara is a helluva guy. He can yammer on about orphans, but it seems he had no problem with the women and children that were killed by Sadr himself. Those particular widows and orphans he has no sympathy for.
Dec 17, 2008 - 3:55 pm 112. Terrye:EdGi:
Bush’s approval rating among conservative Republicans is 72% according to Gallup.
Dec 17, 2008 - 3:58 pm 113. Terrye:Rachel:
My head is out of my ass. {I almost forgot your comment and thought it rude not to respond}. If you watch the tape of this thing the man throws his shoe and then almost immediately he throws another. No doubt these people were searched before they entered this room to make sure they were not armed. The Secret Service agents did respond, but short of mowing down a large number of people or asking everyone to take off their shoes before they enter the room…there is no way they can always stop something like this from happening.
Dec 17, 2008 - 4:08 pm 114. Webrider:Terrye,
Thanks for picking up on the wiretapping. You’re right, they never did anything illegal, and yes the necessary updates to FISA were voted on, and passed and yes, Obama voted for the changes.
The sad thing about today’s world is that people like PatJ believe the lies being spread so fervently, rather than research things and get to the truth. Getting the truth out of the MSM is nearly impossible these days, but it can be done if one is diligent enough. Fortunately, we have the Internet to facilitate the research and gain knowledge of where we’re being misled. Unfortunately, PatJ would apparently rather just live in her cocoon and drink the kool-aid.
Dec 17, 2008 - 4:22 pm 115. Terrye:Webrider:
I have often wondered if some of these people were in grade school a decade ago. Really. I can remember hearing about Clinton’s internet surveillance back then. I can remember seeing Bill Richardson on TV talking about how we had to bomb an aspirin factory in the Sudan because Saddam and Osama were using it to make wmd.
ETC.
Now, it is as if none of that happened. It is as if Clinton did not use a rendition program. It is as if he did not order the bombing of Baghdad at the same time the Congress was voting on his impeachment.
If Saddam was an innocent man, that would have been the time for these people to speak up. But when saber rattling was useful, they rattled sabers. They just assume they can rewrite and revise history at will because most people won’t know the difference.
I wonder if that is true however.
As for the shoe thrower, he is a reporter. A journalist. He might win a Pulitzer for this. And then he can write unbiased stories about what a great guy his hero alSadr is.
Dec 17, 2008 - 4:41 pm 116. Pickerhead :: Pickings from the Webvine ::December 17, 2008:[...] Roger Simon on the lesson of the shoe. [...]
Dec 17, 2008 - 6:44 pm 117. Pat J:Webrider and Terrye.
You are both either clearly delusional or have been spoon fed way too much right wing propoganda.
Valerie Plame was so covert. Armitage may have been the one who mentioned her name to the press, but Cheney pulled the strings in order to discredit her husband. That’s not only illegal. It’s treasonous. And Armitage was not then a “hater of the Bush Administration.”
FISA was the legal standard for wiretapping. Bushco went around it and didn’t have to. It was illegal. Adjusting FISA is after the fact. It’s still illegal.
The Bush administration fired roughly 8 U.S. attorneys not for poor performance but for not pandering to the administration’s warped ideology. The argument is they serve at the “pleasure of the president.” The decent ones put ideology aside as these attorneys did. Don’t be surprised if Obama keeps Patrick Fitzgerald and several others in their position for doing their jobs. The bottom line is, from a civil service standpoint, their dismissals are illegal.
The use of torture came from the top. Cheney pretty much admitted it just yesterday. A war crime and quite illegal under the Geneva Convention. Just because we are fighting “7th century scumbags” doesn’t mean we should be like them. They may not adhere to the Geneva Conventions but we should considering the GC also protect our guys. And if we don’t torture, well I have a few photos from Abu Ghraib I’d like to sell you.
The war itself? We were not attacked by Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 911. Iraq had no dealings with Al Qaida. Iraq had the desire but not the capability to have weapons of destruction. Therefore, Iraq was not an imminent threat to the United States. We invaded Iraq because they were a pushover. If not illegal then highly immoral and a huge stain on the legacy of this great country of ours.
These are not lies spread by the so-called Main Stream Media. These are facts. And there are plenty more instances where this administration has either engaged in illegal activities or abrogated certain treaties and practices that have helped make this country a rogue nation in the eyes of many.
I could go on and on but I know I’m wasting my time. You already have sipped the koolaid yourselves and there’s not turning back.
Dec 17, 2008 - 9:42 pm 118. BC:Ummm….Plame was indeed covert at the time of her outing:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679
Her cover was that she worked as an international economist with an office in Boston at at firm called “Brewster Jennings & Associates.” But aside from a post office box and a phone number, the firm did not exist. See:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/10/27/the_spy_next_door_left_couple_in_dark/
Plame’s name was bandied about by Rove and others in relation to their smear campaign against Plame’s husband, Joe Wilson. Richard Armitage apparently didn’t realize from the banter that Plame was covert. Rove and Libby were reportedly the original sources of the information for at least two reporters, but neither were the original source for Novak’s article.
Dec 17, 2008 - 11:56 pm 119. vivo:103. Webrider:
I’m not talking just about illegal things, but immoral things. The man and his people are just pure scum. Ask your neighbors.
Dec 18, 2008 - 5:29 am 120. vivo:104. Neokon:
” It’s easier than having to form your own opinion.”
I agree that there are some lemmings, but not EVERYBODY.
Dec 18, 2008 - 5:33 am 121. vivo:108. 888:
” I’ve gotta hand it to the MSM, though – they’ve really been successful in controlling so many vulnerable minds.”
If you’re right, I apologize. Meanwhile, I can analyze and decide what to believe. My sources of information have been very reliable so far.
Dec 18, 2008 - 5:44 am 122. Neokon:“The man and his people are just pure scum” – the way vivo and others use invective rather than arguments suggests that they are driven by emotion more than anything else. It’s difficult to take that seriously. You want revenge, fine, but don’t expect me to listen and try to see your point.
PatJ: Bush “didn’t have to” do something about the fact that the law prevented stopping terrorists once they entered the United States? “We were not attacked by Iraq” – as I remember the US was at war with Saddam. Yes, you do seem to be pretty much wasting your time.
Dec 18, 2008 - 7:34 am 123. vivo:121. Neokon:
Of course there is EMOTION in saying certain things. It just summarizes the list of well known unfortunate facts.
Dec 18, 2008 - 8:27 am 124. vivo:Everybody listen to 117. Pat J: he/she’s got it right.
Dec 18, 2008 - 8:34 am 125. Rachel Peepers:Terrye,
I am so emotionally invested in politics that sometimes I write stuff and read it later and can’t believe I was so vulgar. And you were on the receiving end of one of these mini rants. Sorry. Next time I write nasty stuff I’ll try to delete it before I send it.
Dec 18, 2008 - 10:22 am 126. Boojum:Regards,
Rachel
The post-wat sectarian slaughter convinced me that the Iraqi people were not much better than Saddam. All the news stories I read and reports from our GIs say the same thing, more or less. While improved, Iraq is still a horribly corrupt country filled with horribly bigoted people.
Dec 18, 2008 - 11:35 am 127. Webrider:ParJ:
Valerie Plame was NOT covert, period. This was stated by the US official who wrote the act, Victoria Toensing. You can look it up. As for Joe Wilson, he lied about his trip, who sponsored it, and what the results were. By his own admission, the Prime Minister of Niger told him that Saddam was trying to negotiate with them about “economic opportunities”, and other than chick peas, they don’t have much to sell other than yellow cake. Yet Wilson, on a political agenda, lied about that, and then wrote a totally specious op-ed in the NYT which was well refuted by facts. It was an attempt to undermine our entire effort, and that WAS TREASONOUS, not what the Bush Administration was doing.
There was no illegal wiretapping, but there were anxious people charged with protecting us that tried to take it too far. Ashcroft stopped it, so the Bush Administration did not do anything illegal there. They went the proper route, rewrote several aspects of the FISA Act, which your hero Obama voted for!
Al-Queda was in Iraq before the war. Zarqawi was given sanctuary in Iraq by Saddam and operated an Al-Queda cell and training camp freely in the Kurdish area. Saddam also operated a terrorist training camp, complete with an old fuselage of a Boeing 707 to train how to commandeer flights. The training camp was at Salman Pak.
As noted by NeoKon, we were in a constant state of war with Iraq following the end of the first gulf war because Saddam did not abide by the treaty conditions. President Bush noted that it had nothing to do with 9/11 as far as Saddam being a sponsor of that, rather he noted that it was to keep him from doing so in the future, along with other policy positions. Bill Clinton made it official US policy to effect regime change in Iraq. What you, and others ignore is that all available intelligence said that Saddam was reconstituting his WMD programs as fast as he could, and in the dark days following 9/11 there was great fear that he would provide them to Al-Queda (through Zarqawi et. al.) Remember George Tenet saying that the WMD’s were a “slam dunk”? While you can say that intelligence was faulty, since we didn’t find any, you can’t say they lied or exaggerated it, doing that is a lie. There is also an unanswered question about the huge convoy of heavy semi-freighters that were filmed at the border with Syria just before actual combat began. Most analysts think that Saddam shipped most, if not all of them into Syria to avoid being caught with them. I do not know why there hasn’t been any concerted effort to track that down, but there hasn’t. Most think they ended up in the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon (remember, Lebanon is essentially still a possession of Syria.)
Abu Ghraib was a result of poor command by the cashiered General who allowed things to get out of control. The perpetrators were tried and convicted, and that does NOT mean that the US (and Bush administration) condoned it. Rather, it shows they did not. As I said, I do not consider waterboarding torture, even though I’m glad I don’t anticipate ever having to go through it, as it would be terrifying. Yet, we regularly subject our own Special OPS soldiers, airmen and sailors to it during their basic training. As for the geneva convention, it ONLY APPLIES TO FORMAL MILITARY ACTIONS. That seems to be something no one on the left will ever admit to, or even attempt to understand. We do abide with it where applicable. Our military field handbooks demand it, and lay out expected penalties for failure to follow it!
The attorneys fired were fired for cause, not because of any intent to cover things up or failure to follow an agenda, but even if it were the latter, that’s the President’s right to do. He sets the agenda, and has every right to expect those working for his administration to adhere to it. Failure to do so, only shows a weak administrative procedure. The NYT has been on a witch hunt ever since Bush was first elected, and has basically been dishonest about nearly everything they write with respect to virtually anything the Bush administration does. Many media outlets pick up the NYT leads as a matter of course, hence the widespread misinformation about the attorney firings. As I said before, it is paltry compared to what Clinton did in firing them all, save one to cover his shenanigans in Arkansas. Where was the outrage over that?
Abrogating “many” treaties? You mean the ABM treaty? Thank God he did, if he hadn’t we wouldn’t have the significantly improved anti-missile technology we now have, which should help protect us from true “rogue” nations like Iran and North Korea. That is the only treaty I’m aware of him tossing out, and it was the right thing to do.
Yes, if you won’t face facts and accept reality, you’re wasting your time. The things you point out are false, and you have no facts to show they are true.
Dec 18, 2008 - 1:01 pm 128. Fen:“I believe there was an official (however it’s defined) finding by U.S. officials who officially do that sort of thing, that there “were” no WMDs, during the relevant time period.”
The finding is a lie. We did find WMD stocks in Iraq. I served with troops who saw them firsthand, including a navy intell that was in the CoC taking the reports. It’ll all come out years from now, after some of our NBC equipment is upgraded out of public view. We’re still fighting other fronts in this war, ya know.
Dec 19, 2008 - 4:25 am 129. Fen:“Ummm….Plame was indeed covert at the time of her outing:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1892467”
Hah. MSNBC and the Boston Globe as your source? Thats like Primakov pointing to Pravda. Priceless. Thanks for the early morning laugh. Maybe you can back it up with a memo from Mary Mapes?
Dec 19, 2008 - 4:29 am 130. BC:To Webrider:
Sorry to rain on your right wing BS parade, but Plame *was* covert and Wilson *did not* lie.
Victoria Toensing was indeed chief counsel to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at one point and indeed helped draft the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, but that was a lonnnng time ago, and at the time of the Plame business she was no more than just a another weaselly Republican lawyer with absolutely no CIA connections, including not having any knowledge of the Plame case beyond what anyone would get online or in newspaper, as well as also being a personal friend of Novak. Go see how disengenuous she is in this hearing on the matter:
http://crooksandliars.com/2007/03/16/waxman-v-toensing/
And it was the Republicans who were lying their butts off in regards to Wilson, especially the ones on the Senate Select Committee: Chairman Pat Roberts, Orrin Hatch and Christopher Bond. They tried to feed the GOP talking points smears about Wilson into the committee report, but had to mostly settle with sticking them in as an opinion piece in a supplement to the report called “Additional Views.” But they then went on, especially Hatch, to misrepresent their little personal smear supplement has being somehow the conclusion of the main report, which it wasn’t at all. That let toadying, lying apologists like Stephen Hayes to claim or at the least deceptively imply, that Wilson was discredited in the report.
Thems are the facts — you are on so on the wrong side here. Sorry.
Dec 19, 2008 - 3:53 pm 131. BC:To Fen:
Yeah, I thought it best to use journalistic sources that actually researched the matter, and provided where they got their info instead of just pulling it out of someone’s butt, which seems to be the way right wingers like their information served.
As far as Mapes go, Dan Rather’s lawsuit seems to be vindicating her in small incremental steps. Of course people who weren’t complete blithering idiots about common early 70’s office tech, Bush’s DoD records, and the format for old Memorandums for Records knew that while Mapes was incompetent, at least she wasn’t as clueless and/or deceptive as the likes of “Buckhead” and Charles Johnson on that little matter.
Dec 19, 2008 - 4:01 pm 132. Neokon:“just a [sic] another weaselly Republican lawyer” – way to convince with intelligent, objective arguments, BC. The way you lefties absolutely need to air your irrational hatred tells me you don’t care a whole lot about being truthful. Whatever you say may as well be nonsense as anything else. Keep hugging your emotions, they are apparently all you have.
Truth and facts are wasted on these people, Webrider. They WANT their country to be the bad guy. As long as they do, you will never reach them. They see you as their enemy.
Dec 29, 2008 - 8:20 am 133. Kevin:Wow. I wish the libs had been so discerning about legalities and interested in the truth when Bill Clinton bombed Serbian schools, churches, and hospitals during Orthodox Holy Week, all to keep Monica off the front pages.
No WMDs in Iraq? Guess what hypocrites, no genocide or “rape camps” in Serbia either.
Jan 3, 2009 - 6:06 pm