169 Comments

1. Minerva:

Sullivan never admits that he was wrong about anything, much like others who admire Obama — and Arnold. Sullivan used to write adoringly about Arnold being an “Eagle Republican.” Now that California is already in the mess into which Obama will take the rest of the country, Andrew doesn’t mention Arnold at all.

Feb 7, 2009 - 8:08 pm 2. David Thomson:

“—the latest my predictions (before the Obama apocalyptic ultimatums, the Solis tax problems, etc) of a near Obama meltdown.”

Near meltdown? You are being too kind. I don’t think there is anything near about it. Barack Obama’s administration is in a fee fall—and there’s little chance of a turnaround. He is simply too shallow and uneducated. Obama possesses a high I.Q. That’s not the problem. He just never perceived the need to do any serious reading along with debating those who reject his existential worldview. And it ‘s too late now. Obama will not find enough time in the next four years to get his act together. That means we are royally shafted. Things are likely to get much worse. We may begin to wish for the return of the days of Jimmy Carter. That blast from the past might be an improvement over the feckless Obama era.

Feb 7, 2009 - 9:29 pm 3. Qiao Yang:

Professor Hanson, your most recent two essays stand out among all the magnificent and helpful writings in your Works and Days Diary and you show us by example sir, as Americans how to best grapple with what is emerging as an era absent of clear leadership in an atmosphere of hubris and disconnect from humility and simple duty to the Republic. Today’s essay closes with profound philosophical truths — ideas you do not often share with us. You nailed it. You inspire and encourage us, sir. It is with deep gratitude that I regularly read your thoughts and my father and I send you our thanks and cheer (he, like you, a classical scholar and philosopher; I a mere reader). God bless you.

Feb 7, 2009 - 9:58 pm 4. Noesis Noeseos:

“Bizarre person.” You are much too kind, but then you are a man.

Feb 7, 2009 - 10:24 pm 5. Pops in Vienna:

Hi Doc,

Sometimes I wonder how you find the time to run a raisin farm. The new book sounds great. I can’t wait to buy it. I’d love to sign up for the tour but unfortunately work gets in the way.

I think the so called cure for the financial down turn will be worse than if the government simply did nothing. At Viking Pundit there’s an article suggesting that we could buy several countries (based on their GDP) with the money we are going to spend. Not small ones either, Russia is one of them.

I’ve been hearing that the Chinese are NOT interested in our 30 year T -bills. Some economists are even predicting that China will be the next economic bubble to pop. I wonder what will happen when our biggest source of credit goes under?

I’ve been living in Europe for 7 years. Every thing you said about the Euro weenies is true. They are basically slaves living on nice plantations run by benign masters. We will never see an Algerian prime minister of France or a Turkish German Chancellor. If your daddy is a chimney sweep, you’ll be a chimney sweep. So, enjoy living in a two bedroom flat; drink beer, be content with substandard free health care and watch football.

I think we’ve come to the end of America. This bail out bill will ruin us financially for generations to come. Just for good measure,it’s just a matter of time before Iran and Russia turn the world upside down in ways not even you can probably imagine.

I think we just have to admit that the USA has become a very corrupt country. True, Democrats have accelerated the process but the Republicans have certainly done their share to enable the complete collapse of our once great country. We can also blame the public for this sorry state of affairs. After all, we believed the baloney peddled by the media and our universities. We elected these scoundrels and it appears that we aren’t going to do anything to stop this rapid decline.

Where is the Conservative political leader who is passionately speaking out about all of the issues you voiced in your article? Where’s Giuliani, where’s Romney, where’s Thompson, where’s Huckabee? Sad to say but I see no 21st century John Adams, Patrick Henry or Benjamin Franklin coming along to start our second American revolution.

Feb 7, 2009 - 11:55 pm 6. Janus:

How generous of a Euro to give us a second chance at redeeming ourselves in his eyes!

No thanks.

Feb 8, 2009 - 1:33 am 7. Pajamas Media » Our Brave New World:

[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]

Feb 8, 2009 - 2:08 am 8. Delia:

Godspeed and safety regarding your travels, Victor.

This article you wrote was sober and saddening. I’m so galled and appalled by the current ‘regime’ political situation of the USA that I’m in a frantic state of UN-mollified, tin-foil hat wearing freakdom.

I hope you will continue your PJM posts. They are enlightening and eye-opening and much needed for us nutters [read 'truth seekers'] going against the grain.

The thing that scares me the most about OBAMA is that he’s the UNKNOWN and people KNOWINGLY voted IN the unknown ONE. He shucks and jives and pretends ‘cool’ when asked tough questions and when it comes down to actual, factual SUBSTANCE this ‘dude’ has NONE of it. NONE OF IT.

People who were so quick to abhor G.W.B. are going to be wearing a lot of egg when all of this masterfully muddled MESSiah plays out in tragic tones of stifled dissent.

God bless the USA.

I stand beside her and I’ll guide her through this plight, through this fight, through this storm.

Feb 8, 2009 - 2:48 am 9. vivo:

5. Pops in Vienna:

“Sometimes I wonder how you find the time to run a raisin farm.”

Farm workers?

Feb 8, 2009 - 3:09 am 10. vivo:

5. Pops in Vienna:

“I think we just have to admit that the USA has become a very corrupt country.”

Is it because of the American Capitalism and Socialism? Is there any other way?

Feb 8, 2009 - 3:18 am 11. sean sarto:

The remanents of “agriculture” in LA is lawnmowing…which bears its only fruit to illegal Mexicans.

Feb 8, 2009 - 4:06 am 12. Lawrence Kohn:

Pops in Vienna lists conservative alternatives such as Rudy and Thompson (the latter had no energy and no specifics). But no one recalls Duncan Hunter who had the most experience in national security policy and solid conservative credentials and was sober and intelligent. The media including conservative media never highlighted him and he wasn’t shown after the mass debates. He was smooth he wasn’t telegenic and didn’t slide easily into his own media show or boast or pal around with the interviewers. He wasn’t a dazzling speaker but he was articulate and clear and had detailed information at his finger tips. Is it too late to try again?

Feb 8, 2009 - 4:34 am 13. Mary Grabar:

I love the ideas, the historical context of these columns. This is what the liberals lack: they take themselves as the start and end point.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:28 am 14. Ro Snyder:

“U.S. Energy Secretary Stephen Chu announced his resignation this morning amid new reports that Alameda County workers had unearthed more than a dozen additional dead hobo bodies at his former home in Berkeley, California.”

Why, not an uncommon problem at all to have dead hobo’s under ones (former) home.

And exactly how does a Nobel Prize connote expertise, let alone wisdom, outside of a very specific area?

Not to take away from your post.

Respectfully,

Ron

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:43 am 15. Ken Besig:

The Obama Administration is all talk, and most of it not even very articulate.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:51 am 16. Mongoose:

Vivo: cpitaism is not corrupting on the least. Rather, it is just the opposite. It rewards hard work, humility, lawfulness, frugality, patience, sobriety and excellence.

It is Socialism that is corrupting for it rewards laziness, arrogance, theft, profligacy, impatience, drunkenness and mediocrity.

And Dr. Hanson, these issue can be spoken about, and loudly so.

We need to commence doing so, and as quickly as we can. Now is the time to stand up to the PC nonsense and all of its social pressure. We will lose our Republic if we not not do so, and lose our self=respect as well.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:54 am 17. Mongoose:

Vivo: Farmers Hire farm workers. The workers are glad of it for else they would be unemployed. That is because they are farm workers. That is how the world works.

There is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing shameful in an honest day’s pay.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:58 am 18. formwiz:

“Can’t we pause a month or three to see the effects of thousands of dollars…?” If we did, we wouldn’t have a stimulus package – or, for that matter, the zoo that is the Pelosi-run House or an affirmative action President.

PS Doc, you read California’s weather cycles correctly. Do a little research on California weather during the Civil War years and you’ll be surprised how little it’s changed in 150 years.

PPS You’re probably safer over there than on the streets of L.A., but watch your back, anyway. We can’t afford to lose you.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:05 am 19. RE:

I’m sure that Thomas Jefferson would have much to say about the sorry state in which we find ourselves.

Thank you for another fine commentary, Dr. Hanson.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:13 am 20. jdg:

To call the current spending bill a “stimulus” package is biased reporting. That the vast majority of young people don’t know this is the greatest indictment ever of our public schools and universities.

The government created the housing mess with it’s push for an “ownership” society. Healthcare is far more expensive than it need be because of all the government regulation. We have more pollution than we should because the government won’t let us build nuclear power plants. And we spend more on oil exports because the government won’t let us build more refineries or drill off-shore and in Alaska.

So naturally, we’re going to spend a trillion dollars on new government programs, all in the name of solving the economic “crisis” via a new kind of politics. That’s like the Nazis throwing more people into the ovens in the name of world peace.

Out-of-wedlock teenage mothers and abortions are both on the rise because of government welfare and government education.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:22 am 21. B Dubya:

Refering to Lawrence Kohn’s entery (#12)

Lincoln never made a single campaign speech in 1860. Not one. It was considereed beneath the dignity of the Office for a candidate to engage in the hucksterism that modern political campaining has become. The election was decided based on his earlier public utterances, his writing and the opinions of him by men who knew him, with these largely being carried by newspapers.

Since Kennedy, the campaign for President has been a massively funded PR program, devoid of real examination or consideration of the qualifications of the candidate. Beginning in the time of Jimmy Carter, it finally devolved into the 30 or 60 second sound byte, and as we saw in the Clinton years, the main stream media became the wholly coopted co-conspirators with the left wing of the Democrats to get their preferred candidates elected. Now the MSM is the PR flack for the new order.

The first casualty of the assault by the progressive new stalinists was not the economy, it was the free and open press. Once a bulwark of freedom against possible domestic tyrrany, then main stream media now grovels at the feet of their annointed masters with the same careful obeisance as once Pravda and Isvestia displayed to Stalin, Kruschev and Breshnev.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:41 am 22. Bob Sykes:

Our entire political and legal system is corrupt and broken beyond repair. The Republic is finished. We need our own Pinochet now to clean out the mess.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:47 am 23. Bilgeman:

VDH:

“What sort of system subsidizes an unemployed single mother to have fertility treatments to deliver 8 more children to ensure a family of 14, after receiving tens of thousands of dollars in past state entitlements?”

One where someone in a position of power makes a bit of money from this sort of thing.

The identified monies that were squandered on the “Clown Car Uterus” are but the tip of the iceberg.

How much of each dollar that was disbursed to “OctoCervix” was matched by another dollar in costs to administer the various social programs that kept her wretched ovaries fed, clothed and housed…and to whom were THOSE monies paid?

Do a thought experiment:

If you give a bum twenty bucks, he gets the full twenty.
If you give some guy twenty bucks to give to the same bum, you can expect he’s going to keep some of it, and reimburse himself for the costs incurred in giving the bum your cash.
Maybe the bum will end up with ten bucks.

Now a guy who can pull twenties out of the pockets of strangers for the benefit of others has a valuable and marketable skill. It makes economic sense for him to circulate among, and put the touch on, people whose pockets have excess twenties in them than it does for him to while away the day hob-nobbing with bums, see?
That chap will find people who are “bum collectors”, and they will form an alliance…the guy in the racket of collecting will take his skim from the loot, and then give the remaining ten to the fellow whose gig is to be the purser for bums,(and he’ll take his vigorish, as well).
Reasonably, then, out of the twenty that you cough up for the bum, the guy you pay gets 10, the guy he pays gets 5, and the bum gets 5.
And everything works swell. Except for the sap whose giving and the schmuck down at the hind teat.

With the government involved in social spending, the variable of the money being voluntary is removed.

All that the collector fellow needs is a badge and a gun to stick in your ear to get those (now two or three) twenties.
And the bum wranglers need to get their wretched charges to the polling place on election day to vote themselves more “Treasury Compassion”.

“One senses something is very wrong with our tax system when quite well-off people like Daschle, Geithner, Killefer, and Solis simply don’t pay their taxes and then suddenly do only when they are nominated for administration posts.”

The problem with our tax system is that it exists.

Yeesh…what a racket.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:58 am 24. river:

I would much rather listen to a raisin farmer than a peanut farmer.
Which brings me to a slogan with which the the McCain campaign could have won the election:
“In 1976 the Democrats gave us a peanut farmer,
now they’re trying to sell us the peanut.”

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:09 am 25. WR Jonas:

I’m with Bob .(#22)

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:26 am 26. joe buzz:

Thanks again Doc!
3. Qiao Yang, very good comment!

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:42 am 27. Old_Airman_2000:

Doc, thanks for the update on your pending work. I look forward to reading the 10 essays piece and the Savior Generals book. Specifically, your take on Scipio Africanus. However, I think it might be premature to call Petraeus a savior general since he is still in command of that theater of operation and the situation in Iraq could change, especially now that we have a new administration. Apparently, from what I have read about Scipio, he too had changes of administration in Rome that set up roadblocks to his mission. Perhaps a juxtaposition between Scipio and Petreaus in your book would be appropriate with regard to working around a hostile administration or Senate.

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:52 am 28. ~Paules:

Professor,

Your “final note” can be summed up in a single word: decadence. Europe has become a land of lotus eaters, and if something doesn’t change soon in our own country, America will follow. Socialism offers a trust fund whereby the “citizen” is permitted to consume the capital of previous generations without a thought for the future. Indeed, it would seem that we are ready to mortgage the future as well and leave the next generation with nothing but the bills for our present selfishness.

Rome was sacked twice in the 5th century because a populace addicted to bread and circuses refused to man the walls. In 1453, Constantinople fell because the city lacked the requisite manpower to put up a defense. The price of decadence is too often extinction at the hands of more vigorous peoples.

I for one would gladly take my place next to Aragorn before the Gates of Mordor if it came to that. Leftists denounce such notions as stupid fantasy, but such people immersed in decadence do not understand the power of the old mythologies. They spit on notions like duty, honor, courage, hard work and sacrifice. Moral exhibitionism is so much easier than moral rectitude.

“Progressives” gloat when conservatives become fearful. They do not understand that we are rapidly losing the idea of what it means to be Americans. They claim, “we won!” Aye. But it is a short term mandate they have, not license to dismantle our traditions. A restoration of (small “r”) republican principles will be difficult. But better difficult than bloody.

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:55 am 29. Ron Kean:

With the new flooding of money seemingly destined to come out of Washington, it’s our representatives that are riparian mammalian life.

Stay with us VDH.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:05 am 30. reno911:

“I will premise that I concur in the opinion, that, as a general rule, individuals ought to be deemed the best judges of the best application of their industry and resources.

I am ready to admit, also, that there is no country in which the application may, with more safety, be left to the intelligence and enterprise of individuals, than the U. States.

Finally, I shall not deny, that, in all doubtful cases, it becomes every government to lean rather to a confidence in the judgment of individuals, than to interpositions controlling the free exercise of it.” – James Madison

Anybody think Obama is familiar with these ideas? I suspect he is more familiar with the ideas of Alinsky, Mao, Che, than our Founding Fathers.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:14 am 31. TLM:

vivo:

“Farm workers?”

After WWII my sharecropper grandfather moved his family to the Central Valey of California to work the fields and orchards. Initially, they lived in a tent, just like some campasenos do today. My father graduated from Modesto High in 1949, left home (there were too many mouths to feed), picked peaches for a while then enlisted in the Army. In 1953 he entered college in Stockton on the GI Bill, and subsequently went on to graduate from medical school while raising a family of four.

I never heard my grandfather or father complain about their lot in life. In their world the social code was akin to “God helps those who help themselves”, whether you were religious or not. So yes, pity the poor farm workers in the Central Valley. By making them “victims” of the farmers who hire them and pathetically unable to help themselves, you deprive them of the opportunity to do what so many before them have done.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:22 am 32. Bruce:

Professor Hanson,

After reading so much bombast in the media,day in and day out, it is truly a privilege to read your bi-weekly column. Even if one does not agree with what you posit, your command of the English language, coupled with your knowledge of history, philosophy,and human nature is admirable and indeed impressive. I can comfortably say that your writings do indeed provide an intellectual anchor for what I see is an eventual return to conservative government and American exceptional-ism.

Let us all hope that this experiment in the false prophets of hope and change, which are really coded words for socialism, is short lived and our country returns to its senses. People deserve to be told the truth from our politicians, and not frightened into believing that the government must spend trillions of dollars or else we are doomed.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:39 am 33. james:

VDH is a rare fellow and we need more like him.
He is of course old enough to know whence this freak show called America comes: straight out of the Sixties. At that time, the regnant radicals talked about their “long march through the institutions,” and they have succeeded beyond even what they had hoped. So successful have they been that many of the denizens of these institutions, like school teachers, have no idea what has happened to them.
There is no easy way out of this. In fact, if past is still prologue, there may be no way out at all.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:40 am 34. Teacher in Texas:

Bilgeman:

That is a great parable. I am going to use it in my economics classes.

Speaking of those, you should see the fun I am having with some of my “stars in their eyes” Obama worshiping seniors. This is a good time to be teaching eco and we are just getting into fiscal and monetary policy.

Some of them just could not get it how 90% of this laughable stimulus bill are just essentially transfer payments and they don’t generate any wealth or economic actitivity.

“But, but, but, spending, job creation, works projects, blah blah blah…that money will create growth” they protested.

Finally I walked over to one of them and pulled out a 20 from my wallet. “I have a 20 to spend; you don’t.” I can go buy things with it.”

I hand him the 20. Now you have 20 to spend and I don’t; you can go buy things with it.

Where is the growth? Where is the stimulus? We just moved money around the economy. I am the top 5% of tax payers and you are one of the other 95%.

I think when I do that analogy again, I will use your story and use other students as the middle men between me and the student.

Thanks again.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:48 am 35. John Angle:

Dr. Hanson
Thank you for your insights and your writings in these modern times. I’ve been a steady reader of your work ever since 9/11/01, when your C-Span presentation of “Carnage and Culture” was being aired. The essay at the beginning of “Ripples of Battle” regarding your uncle Victor is especially poignant and still a favorite for me.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:02 am 36. David Smith:

I find myself grateful once again that you find the time to write these commentaries.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:11 am 37. Will:

Until Americans asume responsibility for their own actions it won’t get any better.We can’t depend on the government to support and protect us.To do so means government running every aspect of our lives.Loss of freedom.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:25 am 38. geoffgo:

Pops @ 5,

Buy several other countries? Who’d want’em?

So far, we’ve only taken over the banking, mortgage and auto industries, and soon medicine. The unwitting taxpayer owns these companies if they don’t comply and repay. Name one single person in Congress you’d trust to manage an auto company, or a bank, or an operating room.

And given their recognized experiential deficits in such matters, they plan to hire CEOs to run these shows and pay only $500K per year. (Unless of course they’re friends, who can be exempted with a signature.) Only caretaking type executives need apply. We need saviors for these industries, and the bureaucrats will be installing bureaucrats.

And in the latest round of judicious expenditures $78,000,000,000 has gone missing. The response has been “sorry about that.” Mea culpas don’t refill the coffers, ever.

To your point Pops, of wisely spending eight hundred twenty seven BILLION dollars.

Imagine the alternative: For $827 BILLION we could purchase controlling interest in all the Fortune 500 companies, plus outright majority shareholder positions in the next 300 companies on the list.

Obviously, the money has been misspent, and at best mismanaged. Why would any hard-working person want these same fools managing $827 BILLION more indebtedness?

The outcome of the latest election shows the hard-working class finding itself in the minority. We didn’t win, so it’s their turn to abuse the taxbase…enact new restrictions, shrink the military, install a bevy of tax cheats and raise their lifelong stipends.

The takeover by government means the idea of “fair market value” is no longer important to the takers-over, so the value of every share, in every portfolio and pension fund is at risk of enormous devaluation, at the whim of the politicos and the embedded bureaucrats. All we’ll get is a “sorry about that?” and they get to retire on a overly-generous pension for life? With 100% medical coverage? Jeez…

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:33 am 39. Bilgeman:

#34 Teacher in Texas:

“I think when I do that analogy again, I will use your story and use other students as the middle men between me and the student.

Thanks again.”

Glad to have been of service,(although I’m better if we’re both sitting on bollards out on deck).

My wife works in the Public Education Industry,(works with MR kids at the local HS).
I have a whole heapin’ shitload of sea stories about how those same pair of “collectors and disbursers” have a vested interest in keeping people ignorant.

But I shouldn’t need to tell you any of ‘em, hey?

The only path to wealth in your gig seems to lie in becoming an Administrator as opposed to a Teacher.

Really, all one needs to bear in mind are two simple concepts:

1) Divide and Conquer

and

2) The 17th and 18th century maritime Spice Trade…essentially the further apart you can keep the producer from the consumer, the greater amount of profit you can squeeze from each side of the transaction.

After you dope those two out, the rest is just nuts and bolts.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:34 am 40. GGA - Dublin, Ohio:

Dr. Hanson -

Your words are refreshing, and I greatly appreciate the frequency with which you share them with us.

I just heard Congressman Barney Frank say something on NBC that I found deeply offensive. When asked about the pervasive corruption of politicians (in both parties) in Washington DC, he sneered “well, it’s the voters’ fault. They don’t hold us to a high enough standard.”

Can you believe the towering arrogance of this guy?? It was truly breathtaking to see.

Your thoughts about current events are always quite perceptive, and you (and others columnists of like mind) reach a wide audience who largely “get it” and agree with your line of thinking.

Question: How does one engage the silent majority of good Americans to hold rotten politicians to “a higher standard”? And not just rhetorically, but at the ballot box as Mr. Frank intimates?

There is (and has been for quite some time) a pathetic dearth of serious minds and deep wisdom holding pubic office. More and more often, I contemplate the words and ideas of our founder fathers, all of whom thought longer and harder about such matters than most people today can even reckon.

“[W]henever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends [securing the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it…it is their duty, to throw of such Government and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

–Thomas Jefferson
The Declaration of Independence

It is long, long past time “to alter or abolish it ” and return to “Government of the People, By the People, and For the People” by purging career politicians and ranks of corrupt Washington DC insiders from public offices and agencies tasked with attending the People’s business.

Kind Regards,
GGA – Dublin, Ohio

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:56 am 41. LeftWingandBrave:

Want Real Stimulation? Billions are needed for Gay Cultural Studies
President Obama is doing the best he can now to help America become a socially progressive and forward-thinking nation. I respect him for wanting to use money for the Arts and helping the environment instead of war, guns and bombs.

But his stimulus package needs to include more money for Gay Cultural Studies.

Even with Obama in charge, America still has a long way to go before it can really be a progressive and tolerance place where diversity is respected and celebrated. American is still mostly homophobic and too many Americans grow up not knowing anything about gay culture and queer theory.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:58 am 42. Bernard Chapin:

From your last two articles I have to say you understand Obama far better than anyone else, Dr. Keep it up!

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:00 am 43. ~Paules:

@ Teacher in Texas

I also teach government and economics. Try this with your kids. Create a token economy in your classroom with monopoly money. Pay them for work well done and offer rewards that can be purchased from the classroom store. I use nickel chocolates, and hold out the possibility of full-sized bars for those who are savers. When each student has sufficient stash, inflate the money supply with a stimulus and watch the fun begin as the kids begin to bid on limited rewards.

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:03 am 44. view from afar:

Thank you Delia, my thoughts Exactly on the unknown issue, Obama is worse than GWB because at least GWB was around Reagan, his dad, Washington DC, before so he at least knew some of what was waiting for him (which is probably part of why he stayed so gracious?)…

Vivo: Grapes tend to grow all by themselves, what they need is attention at certain points in their production life to produce the best grapes to sell. When the work needs to be done, guess what, it all needs to be done at the same time. Can one guy do it all at once no, and even in your gloriously worshipped Europe, there are workers hired to work in vineyards…and guess what they are not the best paid nor the most glorious jobs, and they are done by foreigners from poorer places than is France, gee guess what? No system works perfectly, and they work even less when a higher purpose is removed from life.
Excelllent again Doctor thank you. Good luck on your tour

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:04 am 45. Master of Obvious:

Mammoth Mountain has above average snowfall this year. You can see it from their website.

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:10 am 46. gordo:

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the USA start by people fleeing high taxes, no freedom of speech, religion etc.?

It is true, it is a cycle.

The question is, where to go?

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:37 am 47. geoffgo:

It’s such a refreshing experience every time I visit this site. Rejuvinating!

Let’s build the system once perfectly, and it will work forever. Nope.

As a serial business starter-upper (entrepreneur in the trade), I often had to explain the proper way to view the tactics and practice of “effectiveness” and “efficiency.”

To the developers I would have to explain that building in the ultimate efficiencies and featuresets from the gitgo was counter productive because a) it increases time-to-market and b) it limits the design to today’s requirements, and those ever-changing requirements could require rewrites, perhaps massive rewrites, when we then had a large customer base to support.
Think pre- and post-Web.

The counter-arguement (and a favorite of investors) is “look how much operating cost we’ll save by incorporating these efficiencies.”

First we must get effective, then we can get efficient. Otherwise we will get really good at doing the wrong thing.

What’s the moral that? The gov’t lackeys will be VERY EFFICIENT at dispensing our $827B.

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:43 am 48. J.E. Dyer:

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for the rare honesty about California’s water situation, professor. There is no water shortage, there is an infrastructure deficiency. We need, exactly, to build additional dam(s) and reservoirs to collect and distribute more of the bounty from the Great Western Water Sump — the Sierra — every year.

Instead of being honest with the people about WHY we do not do that — the “environmental” aspirations you list — California’s political leaders, including Ahnold, basically lie to us, and state that water is insufficient because of the drought. When the truth is, there is plenty of water: we just don’t collect and distribute it for the human population to the extent we easily could. When we have a couple of low-precip years, the existing reservoirs get low. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t enough water for all our needs, it just means our infrastructure is inadequate.

(As an aside, it frosts me every time I drive through the Palm Springs/Desert Cities area, and see the miles and miles of golf course greens and public green spaces being maintained, artificially, in a desert. ALL the water to do that comes from hundreds of miles away: the Sierra snow run-off into the Colorado River — and San Francisco is threatening its people with alternating days when they can’t take showers?)

Californians, read and heed. Meanwhile, thanks also for another great piece. You are always, always worth reading. I’m not a big novel reader, but I look forward to your novel about Epaminondas, as well as the book on mililtary leaders.

Feb 8, 2009 - 11:01 am 49. Saltherring:

“..a system that ensures equality of result..” What a mouthful those words are, Doc, describing our “Affirmative Action” president and his “Social Democrat” Congress. The “brilliant” and “highly educated” Obama epitomizes the leftist culture, which theorizes, mulls and dreams….while proving and accomplishing zero. It is no wonder he is adored by so many….as he mirrors society’s expectation of receiving something while offering exactly nothing.

Feb 8, 2009 - 11:05 am 50. Martge:

What really truly is frustrating is this, if you dare, I tell you dare, to question obama or any decision he makes, the first thing the MSM and obama’s butt kissers scream is “racist”. Just like they pounded and lied about Hillary Clinton being racist so they could make sure they got those votes.

You know who are racist…obama and his crew.

Feb 8, 2009 - 11:10 am 51. Ernest Norsworthy:

VDH’s book, Mexifornia, tells of the “coming crisis” in California. Sadly, his predictions have become fact. The same fate befalls the rest of America unless and until enough people actually listen and stand up and says “enough!”

I live in the San Joaquin Valley in a subdivision only a couple of blocks from a vineyard. It is a marvel to see huge harvesting machines gather those grapes in a fraction of the time it used to take.

California is in the midst of a $40 billion deficit crunch but the liberals won’t give an inch – wanting their cake and eating it too. The governor is weak, the conservatives are holding up fairly well but there are not enough of them to overcome the years of liberal waste.

Businesses are fleeing the state because of high taxes and government regulation. Who is left to pay? Only government workers, not honest job producers.

Some day, I’ll meet VDH and ask him to autograph Mexifornia for me. More power to him for “keeping hope alive” because America is in deep peril.

Ernest Norsworthy
Visalia, California

Feb 8, 2009 - 11:24 am 52. Fausta:

In other words, that Euros expect free health care, free care for their elderly parents, free schools, free defense from the USA, harbor little hopes for rising above the station of anyone else, find housing and jobs scarce, and don’t feel they can or want to leave behind something for their children larger than what they inherited— are all interrelated phenomena.

In my middle age I have taken to the Stoics, first by reading Nancy Sherman’s book Stoic Warriors and later by auditing classes at Princeton. Control, self-discipline, endurance, “can do” agency, and stiff upper lip are virtues (yes, virtues) we can all use in these our trying times. These are virtues that can be taught independent from religion.

It’s not surprising that these virtues disappear from the moral and spiritual landscape at the same time they vanish from the Western academic curricula.

Multi-culti political correctness has something to do with it, but I believe the cause is that many teachers simply can’t be bothered with rigorous academic standards while school boards and school bureaucracies try to get more federal funds, which come from a political menu.

Feb 8, 2009 - 11:47 am 53. Delia:

46. gordo:

“The question is, where to go?”
~

I’m considering space exploration. Planet Conservative or er…if we can’t find a planet we’ll just make one of them fancy dealy bobbed thing-a-ma-jig floating space station thingies. Our space station will thrive and we can watch the world turn into an angry hornet’s nest from afar.

Oh hell to the NO. I keed. I keed. I want our country to thrive and I want our WORLD to survive and I want to make good on my promise to my maker to be thankful for all he has given me.

All I truly pray for is that a bad administration doesn’t turn us into a third world country. How many people DREAM and WISH and HOPE they could live as an AMERICAN? We have become spoiled, pampered brats and it’s time we changed our diapers and grow a set.

Times are a changin’ and not for the betterment of anyone.

Waking up is hard to do but wake thee up, America. WAKE THEE UP!

Like it or not I love you, my Country, my homeland…the land my grandfathers and uncles shed blood for. I will not forsake you. EVER.

Feb 8, 2009 - 12:01 pm 54. Cornhead:

1. On the decline and fall of Europe and its Christian culture, see “The Cube and the Cathderal.”

2. Since the Obama people all went to Ivy League schools, one would think they would know how to manage expectations. I guess they missed that class.

3. Everyday I see more and more the arrogance and inexperience of the Obama people.

4. The Obama people think they can scare us flyover people. Their intemperate and overblown claims just make us mad. We aren’t dopes.

Feb 8, 2009 - 12:06 pm 55. D Foster:

The American need to demand that our Government should be a Government of Laws, a Republic. It has appeared to me for years, that the Congress and Senate will not allow “The Republic” to survive.
Plus, we have become a country where no one is responsible for their own actions. Why has no one been arrested or even investigated in the Sub-Prime Loan melt down. How is it that the banks and Investment Houses were able to bundle these loans and sell them as guaranteed Investment obligations. How is it that Mortage Loan companies could extend loans to the speculators in Florida and Nevada and Arizona, without any recall or responsibility. Buying Condo’s for roll over with little to no personal wealth, people and real estate companies with the Mortage Companies just moving loans, and then selling these phoney mortages to Frannie and Freddi. With the Tax Payer paying to bill. AND NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE. No laws were violated??
And Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are still pushing the same old social programs. Please??????

Feb 8, 2009 - 12:58 pm 56. beagleboy:

You do Ms. Killefer an injustice by including her in that crowd. Yes she did owe some 900 dollars in taxes but she paid them many years BEFORE she had any hope of any nomination. Hers looks like an honest mistake.

Feb 8, 2009 - 1:29 pm 57. gus3:

#53 Delia:

“Like it or not I love you, my Country, my homeland…the land my grandfathers and uncles shed blood for. I will not forsake you. EVER.”

I admire someone who can hold that sentiment under such strain, after the country has so obviously forsaken its origins and us, who treasure them.

Feb 8, 2009 - 1:55 pm 58. T. O'Connor:

To add an anecdote to VDH’s “final note” above, in 2002 I was living in Ireland when it was announced that an “informal” Irish Times poll had discovered that “disapproval” of the US had surpassed Irish “disapproval” of the UK for the first time in Irish history. For anyone straining to remember the context, this reflected only the Irish part in a widespread consternation in Europe at the non-pacific US response to the Taliban regime. Also barely commented on here, in the autumn of 2001 Dublin saw an anti-war protest – led by politicians, entertainers and artists – that was the largest rally ever recorded in that city. I will never forget these things, nor am I finding that I can forgive them.

Feb 8, 2009 - 1:56 pm 59. Anonymous:

LeftWingandBrave: “queer theory”?? After I climbed back into my pc chair, still chuckling at having been drawn in by your stab of irony, I realized perhaps your were being sincere and straight (no pun intended).

In which case, you have so fruitily set yourself up as an absurd caricature of social/cultural progressivism that many here must be tempted to bat you around like flighty shuttlecock. Indeed, let’s drop good, old done-to-death Western Civ and teach….queer theory. [Here I go out of my chair, again.]

Feb 8, 2009 - 1:57 pm 60. DeK:

LeftWingandaPrayer: “queer theory”?? Unless you want to be batted about like a flighty shuttlecock, please don’t present us with such a ripe and fruity caricature of a social/cultural progressive.

By all means, let’s replace done-to-death Western Civ survey with…….Queer Theory.

Can you people not see yourselves as others do?

Feb 8, 2009 - 2:03 pm 61. AnninCA:

Yesterday, Obama said the Republicans who worked with the Dems were “true patriots.”

This evoked my first ever letter to a president.

Those who do not support this bill are not unpatriotic.

And if he’s going to use that type of hyperbole over this, imagine what he’ll do when he gets us into Afghanastan when we’re broke.

Feb 8, 2009 - 2:37 pm 62. John Moore:

Obama’s style of subtle denigration of the now in order to further exaggerate the future he will bring has been a consistent, if ignored, pattern of his speaking throughout the campaign.

Every one of his promises of hopes has been preceded by an exaggeration of the negatives of the now or the past.

It is a very nasty trick, and (naturally) flew completely below the radar of the Obamedia.

Feb 8, 2009 - 2:42 pm 63. JohnnyRussia:

http://jackrabbitcafe.blogspot.com/2009/02/crazed-right-wing-bullshit-peddler.html

Feb 8, 2009 - 2:46 pm 64. Blue Collar Todd:

This is an Administration that will not let a good crisis go to waste. I wonder what the next crisis will be?

Feb 8, 2009 - 3:14 pm 65. BillJ:

VDH-As always, sir, thank you very much for your insights. I too, am a long term reader of your articles and am detecting an increasing pessimism in your writings. I must ask you sir, do you believe American democracy will survive or is the experiment in a fatal downward spiral?

Feb 8, 2009 - 3:17 pm 66. CAP:

I still can’t believe the head of the IRS is a tax evader.

Feb 8, 2009 - 3:38 pm 67. fear Obama:

less than $40 a barrel has resulted in, along with dives in imported natural gas, a monstrous stimulus–perhaps three-quarters of a trillion dollars per year for consumers.
In other words, while we scream about the Great Depression, there are insidious, rarely mentioned stimuli already in play that are far more helpful that borrowing a $1 trillion to redistribute and hire more government employees.

Bush did everything necessary to save the lagging economy.
Soon (1 year),
we will have a recovery and Bambi will be the Moses that led us through the Sea of Red Ink.
The democrats will have ripped us off for 500 billion dollars and grin like Nancy O’Pleski

Feb 8, 2009 - 4:00 pm 68. David S:

Is the Secretary convinced that we will run out of water and have no crops (grapes, remember, grow well in the desert if they are irrigated), or does he think hotter weather means things simply don’t grow?

He probably means that ongoing changes in climate will make historical weather patterns change, making most agricultural activities unsustainable. You can’t just move your grape vines next year because the drought hasn’t improved. It takes decades of investment that will be lost in a changing climate. Water usage in California is already causing collateral damage throughout the Southwest.

So is rendition fascistic or necessary? Is FISA shredding the Constitution or problematic? Is the Patriot Act now necessary, and no longer dictatorial? Is Guantanamo a Gulag that must be shut down, or a complex issue requiring a task force and a year of study? Should we have been out of Iraq by March 2008, or are we to withdraw according to the General Betray US/”suspension of disbelief” Petraeus plan?

Rendition has some legitimate uses – extraordinary rendition does not. Bypassing FISA is shredding the Constitution. The ‘PATRIOT Act’ never was necessary, nor patriotic. Guantanamo is a gulag, and will be shut down, but Obama is wise enough to take his time and do it right. We should never have gone to Iraq, and should get out as soon as we can reasonably do so.

We were already ‘stimulated’ and running a Keynesian economy, so why is more of what got us into this trouble the solution?

Actually, a Keynesian would only run deficits when stimulus was needed, and would spend the money on improving the economy. Running a massive deficit for most of the past three decades has done more to get us into trouble than any economic ’stimulus’. Tax cuts by themselves are useless as a stimulus, and generally counter productive, as has been demonstrated conclusively by GWB.

Can’t we pause a month or three to see the effects of thousands of dollars in cheaper heating and transportation costs for the American household?

Sure, we could wait, but we’ve been losing jobs for more than a year, and losses are accelerating. People without jobs don’t really care about the price of energy, they care more about finding gainful employment – something that has been more and more difficult as the crisis has deepened.

What sort of system subsidizes an unemployed single mother to have fertility treatments to deliver 8 more children to ensure a family of 14, after receiving tens of thousands of dollars in past state entitlements? Was the Dr. involved desirous of the assured business from a subsidized patient, were the parents oblivious to the ill-equipped daughter living in their home, would the mother have delivered the children had she not been assured of free medical services?

Probably the same system that subsidizes an under-taxed oil industry to pursue record profits, at the expense of the American people. Really, pointing to one isolated incident says a lot about your priorities. Look at the big picture.

Peace.

DS

Feb 8, 2009 - 4:08 pm 69. Richard:

So all us atheists just want to suckle off the breast of the State? Give me a break! I’m surrounded by statists of all varieties and most of them are Christians. Contrast that with all the atheists I know that just want to be left alone to pursue their own course in life and I draw the complete opposite conclusion from you based on the evidence. Given that atheists are a savagely attacked minority in this country and that we have been pursuing the road of socialism and the Glory of the State for the past 20+ years, all while Christians were at the helm, I find your assertions laughable.

Yes, Communism embraced atheism in name, but substituted the religion of the State in deed. Conservatives need to realize that just because Communists were atheists in rhetoric, they were not atheists in deed. They substituted a religion of the State for a religion of Christ/Muhammed/Abraham/Joseph Smith/whoever.

Conservatives are seriously confused about atheists because they can’t get over the fact that we don’t need a supernatural being in order to guide us in ethical or moral choices.

Feb 8, 2009 - 4:54 pm 70. Judy, NYC:

we were special because every day we recreated america out of witches and puritans, muslin, make-believe masters and real slaves, penniless servants and women with and without virtue, cowboys and indians, abraham lincoln and thomas jefferson, fdr and eleanor, and every immigrant who fled from their country to this one, each new life created from the ashes of the old one.
what we do each day is what makes tomorrow different, maybe better, possibly worse. it’s what we do. so however we want tommorrow to turn out we have to do today.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:05 pm 71. TLM:

“…it’s not clear that he [Obama] fully understands the huge forces that hit his young administration last week.”

What follows that statement reads like a “Hope He Can Change” redux, except for the typical Frank Rich leftist spin. In his NYT OP/ED today, Rich notes the public’s reaction (rage) to TARP, calls for Geithner to step down, and admonishes the new president for not adhering to his promise to close the revolving door between Big Government and Big Business. Rich must be worried Junior there won’t have enough political capital left in a few weeks to bail out his employer.

What a week. Pigs fly, Barney Frank (aka LeftWingandBrave) slums it incognito on a conservative blog, and Frank Rich channels VDH. Vero possimus!

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:20 pm 72. Marc Malone:

#48 J E Dyer – I thought Palm Springs was watered by well water (as in Springs). I used to live in the Mojave desert, about 60 miles from there. We all used well water. The water table started generally at about 80 feet, and ran to about 150+ feet. Lots of water in the desert.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:24 pm 73. MikeD:

It is good to have people like David S around to remind us about what a failure the US educational system has become. Just like Barack Obama, he is eurudite, but not very bright.

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:55 pm 74. MikeD:

erudite, not eurudite

Feb 8, 2009 - 5:59 pm 75. turfmann:

38. geoffgo: So far, we’ve only taken over the banking, mortgage and auto industries, and soon medicine. The unwitting taxpayer owns these companies if they don’t comply and repay. Name one single person in Congress you’d trust to manage an auto company, or a bank, or an operating room…

I suppose that I would trust Ron Paul to deliver my children. Yet, as a staunch supporter of the Constitution he is laughed at and dismissed. See how far we have fallen?

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:11 pm 76. cfbleachers:

I wonder sometimes how many Americans think they are going crazy as they sense a certain reality that cannot be spoken of for a variety of political, or cultural reasons.

It is with profound grief and confusion, my friend, (although we have not met, I have embrached you into my circle of esteemed countrymen, VDH based upon our shared sentiments and because of the power by and in which you express them), that I stand to be counted among those of whom you speak above.

I feel at war culturally with a substantial portion of those who advance a stealth system of rule over us. I believe we are in the midst of that war and that a vast landscape has been torn asunder beneath our feet. I believe that many of my countrymen have been sold a bill of goods by a corrupt information stream that does not do our bidding, but that of those who mean to destroy our present way of life and moreover, to replace it by stealth and duplicity.

I believe that many of my countrymen are in “frozen denial”. The deep freeze of believing not their eyes, but rather, in the semi-catatonic, self talk of “it couldn’t happen here, it can’t be real, it isn’t what I think I see…that is too extreme.”

Thank you for your essays. I often stand in wonderment at the irony of the timing of your words, immediately preceding or immediately following my very thoughts, although so much more articulately assembled and presented. You are a national treasure.

And finally, about Andy…his barnacle has attached to your ship. It provides him with an ability to travel to places his limitations would not allow. Pay him no greater mind than that.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:26 pm 77. misanthropicus:

RE: 41. LeftWingandBrave: [...] Want Real Stimulation? Billions are needed for Gay Cultural Studies. President Obama is doing the best he can now to help America become a socially progressive and forward-thinking nation. I respect him for wanting to use money for the Arts and helping the environment instead of war, guns and bombs. But his stimulus package needs to include more money for Gay Cultural Studies. Even with Obama in charge, America still has a long way to go before it can really be a progressive and tolerance place where diversity is respected and celebrated. American is still mostly homophobic and too many Americans grow up not knowing anything about gay culture and queer theory. [...]

Wow! LeftwingandBrave, you sure know how to mock liberals – your post made me laugh copiously.
But then… you might be serious – and now I have an even bigger bout of laughter.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:33 pm 78. Charles Gordon:

Perhaps our new president is positioning himself as a post-PC speaker?

If he can declare that the supreme economic and military power of the planet is falling into catastrophe, then surely he can say Islamic terrorists are mad killers indifferent to the death of the innocent to attain their goal of destroying our civilization?

If he can laugh about spending our children’s future taxes now when he says that’s what stimulus is, then surely he can say no new entitlements starting today for the next 18 years until they have the ability to vote?

If he can say on Al Arabiya News Channel that “We’re going to follow through on our commitment for me to address the Muslim world from a Muslim capital” then surely he can say he is an apostate and proud of it?

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:35 pm 79. fear Obama:

66. CAP:
I still can’t believe the head of the IRS is a tax evader.

And no one else in this administration is qualified?

Uhhhhh…

Remember to be Patriotic.

I regret that I only have one job to pay the taxes of my country.

Feb 8, 2009 - 6:39 pm 80. Floxen:

What an amazingly treasonous bunch you are on this site. Our country gets politically, economically, morally, and intellectually raped by the Republican party, and when we, the people, kick you idiots out, you can’t even hold your rancid breath for a month before projecting all blame upon Obama. You’re a bunch of racist a**h***s, and you should all be tried for treason, because you obviously have no motivation whatsoever for helping this country. Morons!

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:11 pm 81. The Historian:

CHANGE MEANS POLITICS AS USUAL SO FAR
So far, nothing new in Washington DC. Apparently hope is not working.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/02/our-ship-of-state-has-no-rudder.html

Feb 8, 2009 - 7:39 pm 82. Bilgeman:

#78 fear Obama:

“I regret that I only have one job to pay the taxes of my country.”

Buck up, then…you will soon have no job.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:07 pm 83. TLM:

The Democrats, including Obama and his Administration, seem to have exceeded all expectations as to how rapidly they would disappoint and demoralize the American people with their brand of leadership. It’s simply amazing that it has been less than three weeks since the country was engulfed in Obama euphoria and ecstatic visions of collectivist harmony, if not actual unity. Must have been cathartic in a Dulcolax sort of way, for how quickly it all passed.

As yet, I do not agree with VDH’s prediction that the MSM will turn on Obama. Like politicians, they now take their cue from their supporters, foreswearing independent thought, and lacking the courage to risk their careers simply to maintain professional standards their viewers/readers apparently despise. That said, the situation re the MSM may declare itself here in the next few weeks. The electorate is enraged by TARP, disillusioned by the shenanigans of the House and Senate Dems, appalled by Obama’s misfires on his nominations, and rightfully suspicious of the Reid/Pelosi/Obama “stimulus” package. (The CBO now predicts the recession to end mid 2009, with the pending trillion dollar stimulus to have no affect, except a negative one down the road). Seems a perfect storm looms for the Obama chartered cruise liner “Hopenchange”, out on its maiden voyage. If the stimulus fails to pass, he’s sunk. And VDH may be right. So watch for the MSM rats to abandon ship before she goes down.

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:25 pm 84. Oakley:

It’s the Twilight Zone out there folks and getting more bizarre by the hour….

Feb 8, 2009 - 8:27 pm 85. TLM:

Richard:

“Given that atheists are a savagely attacked minority in this country…”

Atheists are “seriously confused” about conservatives because they can’t get over the fact that we don’t care one wit about their religion or lack thereof. We do care, however, about self-identified minority groups who ridiculously claim victim status as a means to further their own agendas. And if you construe this post as another savage attack on your a-religious beliefs, I suggest you not wear them on your sleeve.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:10 pm 86. Rotwang:

I wonder how many people actually believe that Hanson is a classical scholar or some permutation of “public intellectual.”

If you read the entire run of “classic Comics Illustrated,” you could actually write any of VDH’s columns better, and without the historical errors.

Feb 8, 2009 - 9:58 pm 87. Eric:

Dr. Hanson,

I’d like to know what you think of states reasserting their 9th and 10th Amendment rights to put an end to the usurpation of states sovereignty started after the Civil War. As of today legislators in 20 states have drafted legislation to reclaim their sovereignty and many have been pushed into this due to the proposed stimulus plan pushed by the socialists in the Democrat party.

See the story here: Lawmakers in 20 states move to reclaim sovereignty, Obama’s $1 trillion deficit-spending ’stimulus plan’ seen as last straw.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=88218

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:06 pm 88. Eric:

Buy copies of Animal Farm for your children, read it together, and discuss.

Feb 8, 2009 - 10:07 pm 89. Sullihan:

I love the comments almost as much as the main article.

#73&74: eurudite, erudite? No, EURODITE sums it up nicely;

VDH, how can I say this? Mr. Andrew Sullivan is behaving as if he has a crush on you. I am sorry.

As for the Energy Sec: Did not Xerxes weep while surveying his army because, whatever the Greeks might do, in 100 years all would be dead? Well in 60 years the entire Baby Boom generation will be dead.

And while the USA has seen worse, but remember the publicity stunt known as “A Day Without a Mexican”? Well, how about a day without the USA? What kind of world would there be then?

And as our President reminded us: All we have is Hope and Virtue.

Feb 8, 2009 - 11:37 pm 90. mister man:

Paules and Teach in Texas: Wow, what a coincidence. I’m an econ and business teacher, too.

Here’ my favorite lesson. Give Student A a $5 bill. Give student B a $10 bill. Give student C an IOU for $15. Now borrow $1000 from the principal telling him that you need a new computer for the classroom because if you don’t get the computer RIGHT NOW all your students will fail. Now go to Vegas and blow the $1000 on craps. Now when the principal tells you the district is docking your pay until you return the $1000 tell him he’s a socialist shuck and jive pig.

Wonderful parable, don’t you think. I can’t claim credit for it. Rush said it first.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:01 am 91. Richard:

“Atheists are “seriously confused” about conservatives because they can’t get over the fact that we don’t care one wit about their religion or lack thereof.”

If conservatives don’t care, then why do they blather on so endlessly about it? Right here in this post in the ‘Final Note’ is a lumping in of athetism with all the forces opposing freedom as if the only people wanting freedom /have/ to be religious.

“We do care, however, about self-identified minority groups who ridiculously claim victim status as a means to further their own agendas.”

Who’s claiming victim status? Not me. That atheists are attacked by the rhetoric of religious conservatives is blatantly obvious to anyone who has been paying attention. You can’t have it both ways; you can’t simultaneously attack a group for their (lack of) beliefs and at the same time claim that you’re not attacking them.

“And if you construe this post as another savage attack on your a-religious beliefs, I suggest you not wear them on your sleeve.”

Why shouldn’t I wear my atheism on my sleeve? Its not like conservatives don’t wear their religion on theirs. That you object to someone being an outright atheist only proves my point that you are only willing to tolerate religious views within limited parameters. Sure, you’ll tolerate Mormons, but not atheists.

Conservatives really need to quit the religious chest thumping if they truly hope to build some sort of “big tent” coalition to fight the creeping (hell, it doesn’t creep anymore, now its up and walking) socialism and Statism of the left. You can’t do it with evangelicals alone.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:22 am 92. David S:

@82. TLM:

The Democrats, including Obama and his Administration, seem to have exceeded all expectations as to how rapidly they would disappoint and demoralize the American people with their brand of leadership. It’s simply amazing that it has been less than three weeks …

It’s not really unusual for a President’s popularity to get a bump from his inauguration. You might want to tone down your triumphalism a little – Obama’s ratings are still better than they were on election day, and that was a pretty decisive success for him.

(The CBO now predicts the recession to end mid 2009, with the pending trillion dollar stimulus to have no affect, except a negative one down the road).

I like how you put the counterfactual talking points in parentheses. Very thoughtful. The CBO seems to think that the next two years will be much better for the economy if the stimulus passes. Projections beyond that are usually not very accurate.

@84. TLM:

Atheists are “seriously confused” about conservatives because they can’t get over the fact that we don’t care one wit about their religion or lack thereof. We do care, however, about self-identified minority groups who ridiculously claim victim status as a means to further their own agendas. And if you construe this post as another savage attack on your a-religious beliefs, I suggest you not wear them on your sleeve.

Actually, atheists in general are not confused about the fact that the religious right does not care about their concerns, despite the Christian imperative to ‘do unto others’. We know hypocrisy when we see it. We care more about the majority misusing democracy to promote their religious agenda. I am wondering what kind of ‘victim status’ atheists have claimed to further their agenda, as generally the folks pushing an agenda do so with bible in hand. Any examples?

Peace.

DS

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:26 am 93. vivo:

16. Mongoose:

“Vivo: cpitaism is not corrupting on the least. Rather, it is just the opposite.”

My statement was referring to this statement:

““I think we just have to admit that the USA has become a very corrupt country.”

Is it because of the American Capitalism and Socialism? Is there any other way?”

If you think the country has become corrupt AND the current systems in force are Capitalism and Socialism, those are the corrupting factors. Both.

I’m not saying the country is corrupt. That’s this guy’s opinion. But IF it was true, blame the current ideologies. Then, Is there any other way?

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:27 am 94. vivo:

17. Mongoose:

“There is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing shameful in an honest day’s pay.”

I agree. I didn’t say anything else.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:30 am 95. vivo:

31. TLM:

“Farm workers?”

Congratulations on your family’s achievements. I’m sure you’re proud of them. I think my question was a little bit sarcastic. I know that the real achievers in agriculture are the hard working farmers and farm workers. I thank them with all my heart and satisfied stomach.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:37 am 96. The Wide Awake Cafe » Prince Obama the Unready:

[...] The Dystopian world of Barack Obama approaches. His allies in Congress are calling for the fairness doctrine to Hush Rush and everyone else who opposes Obama’s policies. For the first time ever ‘the director of the Census Bureau will report directly to the White House and not the secretary of Commerce, according to a senior White House official.’ The centralization of power continues in the empire of Obama. [...]

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:38 am 97. vivo:

44. view from afar:

“Vivo: . . . and even in your gloriously worshipped Europe,”

I’m not the European who wrote the comments. I understand what you’re saying and recognize the realities. Farm workers are to be respected.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:44 am 98. Benjamin Florsheim:

SHIP ILLEGAL FELONS TO *THIRD COUNTRIES*

Another perceptive column.

The debate about criminal illegals willfully ignores a simple solution – illegals can cheaply and readily be shipped to THIRD COUNTRIES if they don’t want to go back to their own – no need to waste $200,000 per head for trials, imprisonment etc.

Many poor countries in Latin America or Africa would happily house and feed such felons for $3,000 a year paid by the U.S. As in early Australia, some convicts could end up making a real contribution to the development of their new home countries.

Feb 9, 2009 - 2:03 am 99. tanarg:

The Evil Plot: Chicago-Style Democratic Patronage??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGafMHsV4Ug&eurl=

I believe it. Listen particularly to the last line the guy says.

Feb 9, 2009 - 2:34 am 100. Ron Kean:

68. David S

Your opinions are discredited on this site.

Please tell us all again about George W. Bush lowering opponents into an industrial shredder.

Please spare us your opinion of Gitmo which contradicts the opinion of every official who has been there and who has testified that Gitmo is and has been humane. Halel food. Guards wearing rubber gloves to give the Koran to inmates. The patience of the guards after having feces and semen thrown at them. Detainees leaving weighing more than when they came in. The gulag was freezing. Gitmo is balmy.

As much as you are welcome here, and you are, you’re opinions lack credibility and your arguments are tedious.

Feb 9, 2009 - 6:48 am 101. TLM:

vivo:

Many of the adults I met growing up had similar stories.

David S:

“CBO anticipates that the current recession, which started in December 2007, will last until the second half of 2009, making it the longest recession since World War II. ” (From their report). Few would argue that the stimulus, as currently written, will have much impact in the next 6 months. Furthermore, in our current situation I’m not sure I would believe the CBO’s or anyone’s predictions in the short term or the long term. They are based solely on economic parameters and ignore other potential problems that necessarily affect the economy. Like a war for example. BTW, in my post I was referring to statements in the CBO report which may further undermine the public’s confidence in Obama’s leadership, and how the MSM might react to that development.

“Triumphalism” is a bit much. The Obama euphoria was nauseating, and he deserved having his wings clipped. But I’m not one who wishes he fail. I am far more concerned with the dereliction of duty displayed by the Democratic leadership in Congress. If you think Obama’s latest ratings tell the full story, just wait another week or so. He needs to get his act together or they’ll fall too.

David S & Richard:

I repeat, I care not one wit whether you are an atheist or not. Furthermore, don’t conflate conservatives with Christians, nor Christians with evangelicals, especially since you seem to understand neither.

“Given that atheists are a savagely attacked minority in this country…”

“Who’s claiming victim status? Not me.”

Your words Richard.

Feb 9, 2009 - 7:01 am 102. Instapundit » Blog Archive » VICTOR DAVIS HANSON: Our Brave New World….:

[...] VICTOR DAVIS HANSON: Our Brave New World. [...]

Feb 9, 2009 - 7:15 am 103. bio mom:

My only quibble is with the idea that we don’t know who Obama is. Yes, actually we do. It was obvious from the beginning. Just look at his past. Gone from the headlines are Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayres but they point the way to understanding Obama. People just refused to believe it. He is and always has been far left. Now he is just implementing those leanings as far as he will be allowed to. And who will stop him??

Feb 9, 2009 - 7:36 am 104. TLM:

Rotwang:

“I wonder how many people actually believe that Hanson is a classical scholar…”

Probably just the ones who bothered to read his books or his bio.

“If you read the entire run of “classic Comics Illustrated”…

Okay, I see the problem here. It’s a waste of my time to respond to trolls who still read comic books. You win.

Feb 9, 2009 - 8:03 am 105. uburoisc:

Those Europeans in your final paragraph have a name, Nietzsche called them “the Last Men,” and Dostoyevsky called their emblem “the Flag of Bread.” Neithr was being complimentary.

Feb 9, 2009 - 8:05 am 106. tanstaafl:

Chu may be “brilliant” and a Nobel prize winner.

But he has no background in climate studies or water management, and I thought his comments relative to a coming dust bowl in CA by the end of the 21st century (as a function of “global warming”) were unprofessional and part and parcel of the general style of fear mongering in the Obama administration.

Is the style du jour to use one’s position & notoriety to make grandiose (and dire) pronouncements about the future, reinforcing the need for overarching government ? Is such a posture de rigueur inside the aerie of your new visibility ?

Feb 9, 2009 - 8:46 am 107. tanstaafl:

Obama’s style of subtle denigration of the now in order to further exaggerate the future he will bring has been a consistent, if ignored, pattern of his speaking throughout the campaign.

Exactly.

Feb 9, 2009 - 9:09 am 108. Paul -Indiana:

Obambi claims to being elected by the majority. Nonsense. If you take into account the percentage of voters who chose ‘none of the above’, Obambi only got 33% of the voters. For myself, I voted ‘present’ with McCain.

Feb 9, 2009 - 9:48 am 109. Zane:

Howard Zinn vs. Victor Davis Hanson

Funny how Social Historians/Leftists focus on “the people” and yet, support cult-of-personality type leaders with sweeping powers, while Classic Historians/CenterRightist study important figures and embrace true republics as model governments.

The Left is allowed, encouraged even, to have its godhead while the Right stumbles around for leadership.

The People are sheep.

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:10 am 110. David S:

@100. Ron Kean:

Your opinions are discredited on this site.

Actually, disliked is a more accurate term.

I like how you excuse extraordinary rendition, illegal detention and torture by noting that “Gitmo is balmy”, as if that excuses all the abuses. Being imprisoned for a significant portion of one’s life without facing charges is no less troubling if the sun is shining.

I’m glad to see that you believe I am welcome here. I enjoy bringing a little balance to comment threads that otherwise resemble a circle-jerk.

Peace.

DS

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:12 am 111. Right Angles » Blog Archive » VDH sees a pattern:

[...] Davis Hanson sees a pattern in the style of Obama and his hench… er, appointees: 1) preface your remarks with the fact [...]

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:22 am 112. David S:

@101. TLM:

Few would argue that the stimulus, as currently written, will have much impact in the next 6 months.

Except for that pesky CBO which sees positive effects on job growth and economic output. I guess we should ignore the nonpartisan experts in favor of your unsourced opinion?

If you think Obama’s latest ratings tell the full story, just wait another week or so. He needs to get his act together or they’ll fall too.

I think it may also be the GOP media blitz that is a drag on his popularity. The MSM has been providing much more time to the Republicans than to the Democrats – it is no wonder that Obama’s approval would dip a little.

I repeat, I care not one wit whether you are an atheist or not. Furthermore, don’t conflate conservatives with Christians, nor Christians with evangelicals, especially since you seem to understand neither.

I don’t claim to be an expert on denominational christendom, but I do see the pernicious influence of religion as a danger to the Republic. As far as being a victim, I prefer to fight the good fight, but there is plenty of evidence on discrimination against Atheists if you care to look.

How Are Atheists Discriminated Against? Expressions of of Anti-Atheist Bigotry
Myth: Atheists Aren’t so Hated Because They Don’t Experience Hate Crimes

Just thought I should make clear that the savage attacks are mostly coming from the so-called christian majority. Not really a big surprise.

Peace.

DS

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:34 am 113. Richard:

TLM: atheists are routinely attacked here and elsewhere. That’s not claiming victimhood, its simply a fact. Just look at this post, we’re lumped in with all the creeping Statist types simply because we don’t share a need for a supernatural being like VDH.

TLM, you know that when you trot out the “victim” language you are evoking imagery of the left with their victimhood special status designations that call for affirmative action policies in response. To deny that association with “victim” is to be completely ignorant of the language of conservative politics.

As for whether or not I understand conservatives or Christians, I don’t think you’re in a position to judge based on a couple comments to a VDH post. (Is judging people a Christian value, anyway?)

If conservatives want to be treated differently from Christians and evangelicals, then they need to stop the religious chest thumping. If religion is irrelevant to the issues, then why do conservatives keep bringing it up?

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:47 am 114. Thomas:

“Bypassing FISA is shredding the Constitution.”

By “bypassing FISA,” I presume you mean the NSA’s Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which was upheld against challenge by the court of appropriate jurisdiction.

Sure, the NSA program might have shredded the ACLU’s understanding of the Constitution — but that understanding isn’t the actual Constitution, and needs a good shredding.

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:55 am 115. Orion:

I don’t recall Republicans pushing a trillion-dollar porkfest bill through between 1995 and 2006. In fact, I seem to recall them getting beaten about the ears for cutting spending by 1% below what Bill Clinton asked for in his budgets and losing seats in Congress as a result.

The Democrats declared war on the GOP after they lost control of Congress in 1994 and hardline conservative partisans thought they could ignore them. The brutal reality is that w/o 60 seats in the Senate you CAN’T ignore the minority party, even when you control the White House, too. The Democrats – and individual GOP senators, who knew how important their swing votes were – took full advantage of this.

Feb 9, 2009 - 10:58 am 116. J.E. Dyer:

Richard — you go right ahead and wear your atheism on your sleeve. But grow a thicker skin. Yes, there are a lot of people who believe that rejecting the idea of God is a destructive force in a person’s life, and antithetical to the basic political optimism of Christians about liberty. But gosh, people disagree with each other on fundamental issues all the time. I see far more accusations about Christians being vile, oppressive “Christofascists” than I do any sort of vitriol about atheists. People believing you are wrong does not constitute people hating you.

(I have seen Christians be very rude and repellent when making political arguments, just as I have seen people from every other faith or intellectual background. I don’t claim that Christians are always polite and compassionate. Most are, as most atheists who post at conservative websites seem to be. But neither rudeness nor simple disagreement is “hatred.” The rest of the world isn’t there to affirm each one of us, with flowers and approval, 24/7. Those who require that of it will never be truly independent in thought or action.)

Mark Malone — as I understand it, the public/commercial greens in the Palm Springs/Desert Cities area are maintained by water redistributed from elsewhere. I know people who live there, who do indeed live off well water. What I was talking about was the acres of golf course greens, the broad greens flanking the major avenues, hotel and mall greens, etc. I should note that regardless of where the water comes from to maintain them, I don’t want to hear another word about people in SF and LA having to forego showers until the public and commercial entities of Palm Springs, Pebble Beach, and UCLA have let their artifically-maintained grass die.

Feb 9, 2009 - 11:19 am 117. Chester White:

I’m 50 and have been studying this stuff since my teens. I have never once seen convincing evidence that “government stimulus” acomplishes anything remotely worth what it costs.

It’s a religion with these people: “Government can borrow money and spend it, and thereby ‘prime the pump’ and we’ll all come out ahead.”

I want to scream every time I hear it: “PROVE THAT, FOR CHRIST’S SAKE.”

It can’t be falsified with these clowns.

You might as well throw virgins into volcanoes in the hopes of accomplishing something.

Feb 9, 2009 - 11:52 am 118. tanstaafl:

Actually, that “pesky” CBO was generally considered to be critical of the Porkulus, especially over time, including, but not limited to…

In contrast to its positive near-term macroeconomic effects, the Senate legislation would reduce output slightly in the long run, CBO estimates, as would other similar proposals.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:00 pm 119. Seerak:

But if one believes in no transcendence, that there is nothing other than the present, then for too many satisfying the appetites becomes the prime directive.

When religionists insist that when God is dead, all is permitted, they are confessing that they themselves see no earthly reason to be moral — that they are incapable of morality or moral thinking without the counsel of their imaginary friend in the sky.

In light of history, I’m inclined to take this confession of depravity from religionists at their word.

But I draw the line when they attempt to blame it on human *nature*. They should speak for themselves; the “is-ought” dichotomy is their problem, an artifact of their bad philosophical ideas — not an aspect of human nature.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:08 pm 120. tanstaafl:

Just thought I should make clear that the savage attacks are mostly coming from the so-called christian majority. Not really a big surprise.

It is so trite and tedious to cast debates over the economic future of the country (and other debates) in terms like those mean old Christians versus those poor, persecuted Atheists. Or vice versa.

Boring, to the max.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:11 pm 121. That’s All I’m Sayin’! » Freedom Folks:

[...] — “I wonder sometimes how many Americans think they are going crazy…” as they sense a certain reality that cannot be spoken of for a variety of political, [...]

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:12 pm 122. Zane:

It’s all about labeling opponents isn’t it? Disagree and, Bam! you’re a nazi. Hey! I’m not pro-abortion, I’m pro-choice. My friend here, he’s not homosexual, he’s gay, but you dude, you’re a homophobe.

Religionist is a newer tag in use by the left. You know what labels do don’t you Seerak? They remove the humanity from the target. Labels allow sweeping condemnations without thought for the complexity of the target. Labels are a tool of the simpleminded.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:31 pm 123. BMoon:

Your conversation with the European in the last paragraph sounds like the Time Traveller in HG Wells’ The Time Machine trying to reason with a dissipate, somnambulent Eloi.

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:32 pm 124. David S:

@116. tanstaafl:

Look at the numbers. Substantial improvement in the near term, possible miniscule negative impact in ten years. I’ll gladly take a large improvement now in exchange for a possible small decrease in overall growth ten years out.

More likely, once the economy recovers, policy will be adjusted, and the small negative impact will disappear. The CBO analysis says the stimulus will do exactly what it is supposed to do.

The CBO is not “critical” of anything, because it is a non-partisan office providing neutral analysis.

If you continue to misrepresent the facts, you will continue to fail.

Peace.

DS

Feb 9, 2009 - 12:40 pm 125. Ragnar Danneskjold:

Mr. Hanson:

You make a number of good points. Unfortunately, towards the end, you blow up when you equate atheism with immorality (or amorality). Noting that most postmodernists / socialists / nihilists are atheists, you make the error of assuming that all atheists are postmodernist, socialist, nihilists.

Have you ever read Ayn Rand? If so, you are aware of a serious view of morality that is the diametric opposite of postmodernism and which is explicitly atheist.

If you have not read Rand, and particularly her non-fiction, then you are overlooking the most significant works in philosophy of the 20th century.

Feb 9, 2009 - 1:34 pm 126. J.E. Dyer:

Well, I don’t know, Seerak. If the “is-ought” dichotomy is a problem,as you say, we need to know why you think it’s one.

Is it because what “is” ought to be, regardless — so, hallelujah? Or is it because you argue there’s no natural human failure in measuring up to what “ought” to be? In other words, “oughts” are fine, and it’s natural for humans to adhere to them; unnatural — distorted by some action of alien power or force — for humans to fall short.

If it’s because the whole concept of “ought” is an invalid concept, I’m afraid that’s a do-loop. To say there should be no “ought” is to declare an “ought.”

The world we find ourselves in is one in which humans have always, everywhere, had the concept of “ought.” They have always had some system of differentiating it from “is.” The pattern is universal, no matter how you explain it. Like the Jeff Goldblum character’s “rationalizations” in Big Chill, we can’t get through the day without big, juicy is-oughts. If you see it as a problem, I see a very big “ought” premise lurking in your assertion.

Feb 9, 2009 - 1:41 pm 127. Nightly Ramble: The Stimulating edition | BitsBlog:

[...] at Pajamas Media,

Feb 9, 2009 - 2:01 pm 128. Paul -Indiana:

#115. Mr. White, don’t give them any ideas. That would be an incredible waste of Virgins!!!!

Feb 9, 2009 - 2:38 pm 129. Connie:

~~Thank you Mr. Hanson, for your keen observations worldwide, and locally. I am a high school teacher, and try to stay politically correct in the classroom…but it’s tough…and I have stepped out of public school teaching this year, due to the overload on us.
I feel the same about illegals taking from us…as well as the three (if not more) things we should do before passing this ludicrous BILL. I am fighting that Bill by faxing senators…perhaps futile.
Please tell me more about the Greek tour…as I am interested…went on a silly Singles tour last year through Singles Travel (do not use them)…and long for a solid, academic but fun trip.
I see teaching openings in New Zealand, Canada and elsewhere…shall I immigrate or stay and try to help this spiral into oblivion? I camped at Mt.Whitney in a trailer in the 60’s with my parents and siblings..and still have memories of a wonderful American upbringing…that is what fuels me I guess…and saddens me.
Keep up your blogs or narratives…excellent reading for everyone with an open, unbiased mind.

Feb 9, 2009 - 2:53 pm 130. J:

Because “apocalyptic” is useful politically to push through something fast and with little scrutiny.

George Bush’s team was the inventor of the technique, avoiding the committee process and public comment.

Obama is using it to distract people from the largesse in the so-called stimulus. Nothing different than Bush on his bailouts (plural).

You ain’t seen nothing yet. The superlatives about global warming are going to get louder and more and more numerous in the run up to getting Obama’s climate change bill through quickly. Cap and trade is the ticket.

Feb 9, 2009 - 4:42 pm 131. Ron Kean:

110. David S

No. Discredited is the proper term. Thinking that the inmates of Gitmo are just like your American friends lacks credibility.

If you think that they’ve been tortured as torture has been defined over the centuries, your opinion again lacks credibility.

You may think that these people are just like you and me. This is incredible.

You may think you’re disliked. But most people just don’t believe what you’re talking about. You’d be more in your element at the Daily Kos.

Feb 9, 2009 - 5:47 pm 132. TLM:

Richard:

“TLM, you know that when you trot out the “victim” language you are evoking imagery of the left…”

That was my intent.

“As for whether or not I understand conservatives or Christians, I don’t think you’re in a position to judge based on a couple comments to a VDH post. (Is judging people a Christian value, anyway?)”

Similarly, you presume I’m Christian based on a few blog posts. My implication that you don’t understand conservatives or Christians is an opinion, not a judgement. Atheists tend to throw religious precepts around (cf, do unto others…; judge not lest ye be judged) without fully understanding what they mean. BTW, that’s another opinion, not a judgement

“If religion is irrelevant to the issues, then why do conservatives keep bringing it up?”

Many of these issues have a moral dimension to them. The fundamental basis for our concept of morality derives from Judeo-Christian ethics. Discussing moral issues without some fundamental ethical basis is a useless exercise. As an atheist you apparently abhor any possible linkage between morality and religious ethics. Well, good luck with de-linking what has been a constant in Western culture for 2000 years.

As a thought experiment why don’t you and David S come up with Ten Golden Rules by which atheists can come together and form a more perfect moral society. Don’t copy any of the Ten Commandments because that would be injecting “religion” into your society. See how far you get with that. The point is, you both seem to think that you have come up with a system of morality on your very own, divorced from the trappings of any religion, when in fact all you have done is change the terminology. You have inherited some precepts Judeo-Christian ethical thinking, whether you you wish to acknowledge it or not. So stop with the chest-thumping every time you hear “religion” brought up. You act like scared little children at the mere mention of the word. And only Leftists are afraid to discuss concepts contrary to their programming.

Feb 9, 2009 - 7:50 pm 133. Richard:

“Richard — you go right ahead and wear your atheism on your sleeve. But grow a thicker skin.”

Once again, you attempt to read intent and victimization into my responses, when I am simply expressing my point of view. If you’re going to continue to put words into my mouth, then this discourse is really going nowhere. When did I ever say I was offended or anything else that would be interpreted as thin-skinned? I’ve been insulted by far, far, far, worse than you or VDH (and no, before you put words into my mouth /again/, I’m not saying you’re attempting to insult me). I’ve been debating politics and issues on the net since 1986, I’m pretty sure that makes me the old-timer around here.

“Yes, there are a lot of people who believe that rejecting the idea of God is a destructive force in a person’s life, and antithetical to the basic political optimism of Christians about liberty.”

That’s their belief and I’m not attempting to dissuade them from it. But its better for a “big tent” conservative cause if they simply keep that belief to themselves rather than thumping their chest and proclaiming it loudly and often. Do I think you have that view? I don’t know. I’m not taking issue with your blog post, but one small point in VDH’s post. You see, the sad thing is that I agree with the majority of his post and a bunch of other things that conservatives often say (lately, its been less what they do, even if they say the right things), but its when they get on their religious soap boxes and start thumping their chest that they alienate me. And I’m guessing that even beyond the atheists out there, there are mildly religious people that also don’t like the implications and the chest thumping. This particular example was fairly mild, but when the mild examples go unquestioned, it only encourages louder and more insistent chest thumping.

“But gosh, people disagree with each other on fundamental issues all the time.”

…and I’ve got no problem with that. Where did I say otherwise?

“I see far more accusations about Christians being vile, oppressive “Christofascists” than I do any sort of vitriol about atheists.”

Perhaps because you’re sensitive to that, but there are two sides to the coin. Of course, by bringing that up, the inference is that /I/ am making such accusations about Christians. I haven’t. I do call out hypocrisy when I see it, but last I checked, Christians had no monopoly on that human fault.

“People believing you are wrong does not constitute people hating you.”

Again, with the words in my mouth. Where did I say that people hate me? You keep wanting to make my comments about me, but they aren’t. I’m simply objecting to VDH’s lumping in of atheists with all the other creeping Statism types. I’m sorry to tell you that the majority of creeping Statism in this country is most definately NOT coming from atheists and is most certainly coming from theists, predominantly Christians.

Feb 9, 2009 - 8:50 pm 134. Richard:

““TLM, you know that when you trot out the “victim” language you are evoking imagery of the left…”

That was my intent.”

…and that’s my point. You’re painting me with a brush that’s not deserved. You read into a statement of fact a claim of victimhood. Stick to what I’m typing and not what you imagine it means and we’ll be able to avoid this petty tit-for-tat “depends on what ‘is’ is” type of discussion and get back to the point at hand.

““As for whether or not I understand conservatives or Christians, I don’t think you’re in a position to judge based on a couple comments to a VDH post. (Is judging people a Christian value, anyway?)”

Similarly, you presume I’m Christian based on a few blog posts. [...]”

Oh come on, this is getting tiresome. I simply asked an aside rhetorical question and you take it as a statement about you. Where did I say you are a Christian? I didn’t. You really need to pay attention to the text and not your imagined subtext.

Feb 9, 2009 - 8:53 pm 135. vivo:

115. Orion:

“I don’t recall Republicans pushing a trillion-dollar porkfest bill through between 1995 and 2006.”

How easily you forget the glorious invasion to Iraq.

Feb 9, 2009 - 9:27 pm 136. vivo:

132. TLM:

“Atheists tend to throw religious precepts around (cf, do unto others…; judge not lest ye be judged) without fully understanding what they mean.”

Your arrogance and ignorance shows.

“The point is, you both seem to think that you have come up with a system of morality on your very own,”

Your ignorance deepens. It would be a waste of time to discuss this before you educate yourself.

“And only Leftists are afraid to discuss concepts contrary to their programming.”

You put the nail on the coffin . . .

Feb 9, 2009 - 9:42 pm 137. TLM:

As the Obamessiah has virtually declared the Apocalypse well nigh we might need to revive a tried and true religious practice of Medieval Europe which was quite popular during times of impending catastrophe. Like a really bad recession, cyclical outbreaks of the plague caused a certain kind of mania among the populace of Western Europe. Typical villagers often responded by rounding up “witches” and burning them at the stake. Usually, dotty old ladies, the village idiot, slow moving gimps, etc. bought it for the good of all. And apparently it worked. A few centuries after the Black Death killed a third of their population, Europeans went on to dominate the world.

As there are no good remedies in the offing, we need to take a closer look at how our ancestors might’ve confronted our current predicament. So for planning purposes only, who would be suitable for a fiery sacrifice should that be necessary? The first to go — the Queen of the coven, and yet another first for her — has to be Nancy Pelosi. That bearer of the frozen smile (I think they mixed up and injected tetanus toxin instead of Botox at her last treatment) virtually begs to be consigned to the flames. Of course, Pelosi’s consort and resident Senate incubus, that old goat Harry Reid, should join her in the conflagration, wherein both can compete for the Invictus Rictus award. Next a twofer, village idiot and gawky gimp, Slo-Mo Joe Biden, he of the St. Vitus’ Dance in the Oval Office, goes in round one as well. A suitable representative from the diabolical MSM would be desirable and one immediately suggests herself on looks alone: Helen Thomas. She may, however, need to be liberally basted prior roasting in order to avoid the stench. Also, best to drive a stake through her heart. You don’t want that visage haunting your dreams, so don’t take any chances. And finally, as punishment for their blasphemy, backup toasters for the initial auto de fe would be the evil twin sisters from the State of Maine, Collins and Snowe.

So, think it over, but don’t dally. Remember, we’re staring into the Void and time is of the essence. Like Rahm Emmanuel says, “Don’t let a crisis go… without wasting a few miscreants.”

Feb 9, 2009 - 11:25 pm 138. ashok:

I loved reading every minute of this. I wish your columns were more like this: the observations are mixed in well with your learning, and the narrative is compelling, entertaining, and opens up questions. In that last sense, “logos” hasn’t been substituted for the deity of sin and sacrifice (also “logos”) at all. Heidegger is not his admirers: the martial striving of nature for a thing to fulfill its “telos” is just absent from any European/statist conception of anything. I’m not saying that we or they should be more martial, but rather that without taking “arms and the man” and the suggested necessary linkage between the two seriously, our “reason” rests on a spurious proposition that we can just wish the things we don’t like away.

Feb 9, 2009 - 11:38 pm 139. David S:

@132. TLM:

As a thought experiment why don’t you and David S come up with Ten Golden Rules by which atheists can come together and form a more perfect moral society.

Here are some proposals from an atheist…
Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told.
Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly.
Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science.
Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name of god.
Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for future generations.
Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man.
Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest.
Thou SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics.
Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State.
Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments.
…looks like a good start.

Peace.

DS

Feb 10, 2009 - 12:08 am 140. Our Brave New World « poplicola:

[...] February 10, 2009 Our Brave New World Posted by poplicola under Uncategorized   http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/our-brave-new-world/ [...]

Feb 10, 2009 - 5:13 am 141. tanstaafl:

The CBO is not “critical” of anything, because it is a non-partisan office providing neutral analysis.

If you continue to misrepresent the facts, you will continue to fail.

Well, sweet pea, all I know is the nature of continuous yakking over the airwaves over the past 5 days or so, that “even” the CBO is critical of the porkulus. And I read it, but like most bureaucrat-ese, the content left me hungry and ambivalent.

I will, however, take issue with your lame jab of “misrepresenting the facts”. It’s ASIF you’re pretending to be on some high, all knowing road, a typical Leftoid ploy

Feb 10, 2009 - 7:59 am 142. TalkinKamel:

Richard, if you think atheists are the ones consistently being attacked, I suggest you read some of David S.’s, and Seerak’s posts.

Peace? I doubt that’s what you guys really want. .

(By the way, David S., my atheist husband is firmly against the stimulus).

Feb 10, 2009 - 9:06 am 143. DonJoe:

A Lesson for Obama, Sir Secretary Clinton, One World Leaders & The UN.

Who Owns Israel?

An ingenious example of speech, politics, and irony occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

A Representative from Israel began: “Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ‘What a good opportunity to have a bath!’”

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock, and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.
A Palestinian had stolen them.

Immediately the UN Palestinian Representative jumped up furiously and shouted, “What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren’t even there then.”

The Israeli Representative smiled and said, “And now that we have made that point very clear, I will begin my speech…….”

Feb 10, 2009 - 9:20 am 144. TLM:

David S:

…looks like a good start. For a sophomore maybe. A few points:

The guy who wrote these knowingly mimics the Biblical Ten Commandments, and duplicates a few. Try not to use Judeo-Christian religious teachings to buttress your own. That was the challenge.

Your code is self-centered, exclusive and contradictory. Everyone follow their own Personal Code of Ethics — yeah, that’ll work. Contradicts the whole idea of codifying the rest of your Ten Commandments.

I could go on, but as someone said above this is tedious. You earn the most common entreaty found on this site: Grow up, read more and don’t wear your or emotions (or your atheism) on you sleeve.

Feb 10, 2009 - 12:53 pm 145. TIN Links 2.10.09 « THE IRATE NATION:

[...] “Our Brave New World” is long but worth every minute of your time: it reads exceptionally well and there’s lots to [...]

Feb 10, 2009 - 1:23 pm 146. tanstaafl:

Everyone follow their own Personal Code of Ethics — yeah, that’ll work. Contradicts the whole idea of codifying the rest of your Ten Commandments.

It’s the central idea of postmodernist/deconstructionist “thinking” which has been hammered into Obama zealots’ heads for decades & has brought us this Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, girls-gone-wild-punk-rapper planet.

The same planet that the beheaders and bombers feel charged to “correct” by imposition of Allah’s one and only true religion.

Under the constraints of political correctness, we wouldn’t want to hurt anybody’s “feelings” by insisting there is a moral code existing outside of their own personal opinions about it.

Feb 10, 2009 - 2:08 pm 147. David S:

@144. TLM:

Your original challenge: “As a thought experiment why don’t you and David S come up with Ten Golden Rules by which atheists can come together and form a more perfect moral society. Don’t copy any of the Ten Commandments because that would be injecting “religion” into your society. See how far you get with that.”

The guy who wrote these knowingly mimics the Biblical Ten Commandments, and duplicates a few. Try not to use Judeo-Christian religious teachings to buttress your own. That was the challenge.

The challenge you issued was to “come up with Ten Golden Rules”, without copying “any of the Ten Commandments”. That’s what was provided. You go on to whine about how tedious this is – but you are the one who issued the challenge. You asked for ten rules, so you got ten rules. None of them are duplicates of the ten commandments.

The larger question here is why anyone should use ten arbitrary guidelines as the basis for their morality. The whole idea of the “Ten Commandments” is an exercise in cultural insanity.

Your code is self-centered, exclusive and contradictory.

Wow, just like yours.

Everyone follow their own Personal Code of Ethics — yeah, that’ll work. Contradicts the whole idea of codifying the rest of your Ten Commandments.

Well, now that you mention it, we could eliminate the other nine. Which of your ten would you keep if you could only have one?

The whole idea that ethics can be reduced to convenient talking points is ludicrous. Even so, I play along to help you with your thought experiment, and all you can do is whine about the pointless exercise you requested.

We all live by a Personal Code of Ethics – no matter what we base it on. There is no divine right to tell somebody else how to be ethical. You claim “conservatives … don’t care one wit about their [atheists'] religion or lack thereof.”

So why are you asking?

Peace.

DS

Feb 10, 2009 - 7:22 pm 148. TLM:

David S:

Hypocrite. I challenged YOU to come up with a code of ethics and you copied some idiot’s off the internet. Think for yourself for a change, especially since you consider yourself a conservative.

“The whole idea that ethics can be reduced to convenient talking points is ludicrous.”

With that said, arguing with you is pointless.

Feb 10, 2009 - 8:44 pm 149. vivo:

144. TLM:

“The guy who wrote these knowingly mimics the Biblical Ten Commandments, and duplicates a few. Try not to use Judeo-Christian religious teachings to buttress your own. That was the challenge.”

A few of the 10 Commandments makes sense because they are based on human universal truths/realities. “Copying” rules from one religion to another belief makes sense because they can be UNIVERSAL. For example, “you shall not kill” belongs in just about every belief. Just because the Christians have it, doesn’t stop Atheists from using it. The difference is who follows it. Christians have a horrible record following this principle. Atheists have more respect for human life.

Feb 11, 2009 - 5:11 am 150. atlargeinohio:

vivo-

Atheists have more respect for human life? All communists are avowed atheists (officially anyway). How’s that been workin’ for people under communist rule worldwide? I hear 150 Million dead and counting. Are you talking about respect as in putting people out of their misery? Statements like that just floor me.

Feb 11, 2009 - 9:58 am 151. Ron Kean:

Vivo

Hitler ignored religion. 13,000,000 killed in camps, millions more on the battlefield.
Stalin atheist. 30,000,000 died in reorganizing society and the gulags.
Mao athiest. Maybe 40 – 50,000,000 killed.
WWI wasn’t about religion.

Obviously, the Crusades, the Thirty Year’s War, and others were notable. Islam goes without saying.

All in all, the Judaic/Christian tradition if not Hindus, Daoism, and others have brought direction, peace, community, family, order, mercy, giving, and much more. Ever hear of Atheists building a hospital? Homeless refuge? Free Food Pantry? Pray tell.

Atheism has contributed nothing other than a counter-point to the good that the above religions contribute.

Feb 11, 2009 - 11:00 am 152. David S:

@148. TLM:

Hypocrite. I challenged YOU to come up with a code of ethics and you copied some idiot’s off the internet. Think for yourself for a change, especially since you consider yourself a conservative.

1) You did not ask me to write a code, but to come up with one. Which is what I did.

2) I have never claimed that I consider myself a conservative.

3) Your hypocrisy is in asking me to think for myself, without applying the same standard to yourself.

“The whole idea that ethics can be reduced to convenient talking points is ludicrous.”

With that said, arguing with you is pointless.

Indeed, if all you have to offer is convenient talking points, and no substance or rational arguments, you will find arguing with me pointless.

Peace.

DS

Feb 11, 2009 - 12:11 pm 153. J.E. Dyer:

Richard at #133 — I must apologize for not getting back to this blog earlier. I’ve been blog-tending, a new thing for me, and it’s threatening to end life as I know it. It’s not because I lost interest in you or the topic.

I might withdraw the encouragement to grow a thicker skin, but I’d want to get past this sticking point first. What VDH actually said was this, about talking politics to a European:

“I tried to explain the mutually reinforcing elements of socialism, atheism, utopianism, pacifism, and statism (he was giving America a second chance to morph into Euros under Obama). But if one believes in no transcendence, that there is nothing other than the present, then for too many satisfying the appetites becomes the prime directive.”

Now, I don’t actually read this as lumping atheists in with other statists. I’m pretty sure VDH is well-versed enough in American politics to know that “atheists” are not a political bloc, and have no universal affinity with the statist left. I just don’t read that as what he is saying here.

Rather, he is arguing — the second sentence bears this out, as well as the wording of the first — that atheISM offers elements of an intellectual posture and philosophy that can and do reinforce the elements of the other -isms listed, to form the world view of the Western left.

I think it’s a fair argument that atheism doesn’t necessitate leftism, by any means; but an equally fair argument that atheism offers fewer natural brakes on Western leftism than Christianity (or Judaism, although that’s a separate argument — and dragooning Islam into this would take us even farther afield).

One can also make the argument that leftists seize on certain principles of Christianity to justify socialism, pacifism, etc; an argument you seem to allude to, but have not actually made.

What I would recommend is making the actual arguments — discussing the -isms — rather than focusing on whether the -ists are being lumped together. A key point in service of this one is that leftists using Christianity to justify their approach doesn’t mean that their approach IS the approach of Christianity. This is probably what you are getting at, about atheism, when you request that atheists not be lumped in with statists and pacifists and so on.

That’s fair enough. And maybe VDH spoke more accurately in his second sentence, regarding what he is really referring to: a loss of the sense of a transcendant being, and life beyond ourselves, which is certainly a social phenomenon in Europe, although it doesn’t, strictly speaking, equate to an embrace by Europeans of “atheism.” Perhaps this was a misleading shorthand.

The one thing I am VERY sure it was not is a partisan jibe at “atheists” as a human subgroup. It strikes me as a more thoughtful and abstract reference than that.

Feb 11, 2009 - 5:42 pm 154. Ron Kean:

David S

You’re still around.

So, did Bush lower his opponents into the shredder head first or feet first? Or will you confess your absurdity? That’s the reason I agree with you that arguing with you is pointless.

It isn’t that people dislike you. Rather, and I think I speak for others as well, it’s a reluctant tolerance. It’s a resignation that the time reading your posts could be better spent elsewhere.

It starts with your insults. Circle jerk? Your vulgar reference is a waste of time. But you can grow by reading what others write.

And my hope…is that you change.

:- )

Feb 11, 2009 - 5:50 pm 155. David S:

@154. Ron Kean:

Indeed, I am still around. Just trying to keep the blatant propaganda from going completely unchallenged.

Bush used the shredder in the same manner as Saddam – solely in fiction. The claim that Saddam had a people shredder is pure propaganda, based on a single uncorroborated, unconfirmed interview:

all that Indict had to go on – uncorroborated and quite amazing claims made by a single person from northern Iraq

In contrast:

An Iraqi who worked as a doctor in the hospital attached to Abu Ghraib prison tells me there was no shredding machine in the prison. The Iraqi, who wishes to remain anonymous, describes the prison as “horrific”. Part of his job was to attend to those who had been executed. Did he ever attend to, or hear of, prisoners who had been shredded? “No.” Did any of the other doctors at Abu Ghraib speak of a shredding machine used to execute prisoners? “No, never. As far as I know [hanging] was the only form of execution used there.”

Other groups have no recorded accounts of a human shredder. An Amnesty International spokesman tells me that his inquiries into the shredder “drew a blank”. Widney Brown, the deputy programme director of Human Rights Watch, says: “We have not heard of that particular form of execution or torture.”

I don’t know why you are obsessed with this fictional shredder, but it really is rather disturbing that you persist in this fantasy.

Personally, I didn’t think the circle-jerk comment was terribly of character with the ongoing commentary (butt-kissers, cathartic in a Dulcolax sort of way, etc.).

I am glad that you noticed I haven’t run screaming for the hills.

Peace.

DS

Feb 11, 2009 - 11:36 pm 156. Ron Kean:

I followed your lead and true…they didn’t find a shredder when the military went in and people did deny previous reports that it existed. They didn’t find 55 gallon drums of WMD’s either. True also.

He had 6 months to get rid of the most heinous aspects of his rule. But people still maintain that because we couldn’t find this stuff, it never existed. OK. There are people who’ve reviewed General Sada’s book on Amazon who said the General made that stuff up too. OK.

By my way of thinking, he killed Iranians with gas and he killed Kurds with gas, he hampered the inspection people so much they walked out. But if you want to argue that if he had had all that stuff, it would have been there, it’s pointless to argue. Intellegence agencies VS curveball.

But Gitmo is another thing. 3 people were waterboarded and it’s generally accepted that the intellegence saved American lives. You may disagree. What other torture did we use? Barney videos? Goth music? You mentioned 3 years out of their lives. OK. I choose to defend mothers and fathers and children and those who disagree with me choose the inmates in the prison. I am surprised that you either don’t know or ignore the evidence of ‘good’ treatment that visitors have voiced.

It wasn’t the shredder. It was your ridiculousness that bothered me. I can be ridiculous too but not in an argument or exchange of ideas like on this thread.

Name calling only reflects negatively on the one calling names.

Feb 12, 2009 - 11:34 am 157. David S:

@156. Ron Kean:

I followed your lead and true…they didn’t find a shredder when the military went in and people did deny previous reports that it existed. They didn’t find 55 gallon drums of WMD’s either. True also.

Thank you for taking the time to review some of the evidence. I only wish more people would do the same. I really do appreciate that you took the time to check the facts.

He had 6 months to get rid of the most heinous aspects of his rule. But people still maintain that because we couldn’t find this stuff, it never existed. OK. There are people who’ve reviewed General Sada’s book on Amazon who said the General made that stuff up too. OK.

If someone can provide corroborating evidence, I would certainly take a look, but so far I have not seen any. It seems more likely to me that the whole people shredder thing was made up. Really, it would be quite messy, and there are many other ways to kill someone slowly and painfully.

By my way of thinking, he killed Iranians with gas and he killed Kurds with gas, he hampered the inspection people so much they walked out. But if you want to argue that if he had had all that stuff, it would have been there, it’s pointless to argue. Intellegence agencies VS curveball.

I don’t doubt that he had poison gas – we were the ones that provided it. But the inspectors removed all WMD, and by 1997 he had none.

President Ronald Reagan gave it to him several years before. After the United States helped Saddam into power in 1980, they gave him 30,000 lbs of sarin nerve gas and told Saddam to use it against the Iranians. In return, the Iraqis sold America a large quantity of oil. Oil for weapons. Fun Fun Fun.

But Gitmo is another thing. 3 people were waterboarded and it’s generally accepted that the intellegence saved American lives. You may disagree. What other torture did we use?

I’m not sure who “generally accepted” that waterboarding led to actionable intelligence that prevented an attack – certainly not I. The historical record on the effectiveness of torture is very clear – it is the least reliable way to get information from a suspect. We may have used many other torture techniques at Gitmo and at Abu Ghraib and other facilities. Some include excessive heat or cold, or being forced to endure “stress positions”. Unfortunately, the worst torture techniques will undoubtedly remain unreported. A number of deaths in custody also could fall into the torture category.

It wasn’t the shredder. It was your ridiculousness that bothered me. I can be ridiculous too but not in an argument or exchange of ideas like on this thread.

I have a bad habit of trying to address folks on their level of discourse – obviously your level is higher than I initially suspected. When you claimed I was discredited on this site, I took that as a personal attack, perhaps rashly.

Name calling only reflects negatively on the one calling names.

This is true, but I wasn’t calling anybody names. I was commenting on the behavior I witnessed. I call them like I see them, and it seemed like the most appropriate description (still does). I do appreciate that you are more interested in the truth than many of the others on these pages. Thanks for that.

Peace.

DS

Feb 12, 2009 - 10:15 pm 158. Ron Kean:

“But the inspectors removed all WMD, and by 1997 he had none.”

Saddam required that the inspectors give him the list of sites they were to see the next day. So the inspectors just up and left – job left undone – rather than allow him to scrub the sites. Up to and before the invasion, the CIA, KGB, England, and others said he had WMD’s.

“The historical record on the effectiveness of torture is very clear – it is the least reliable way…”

That’s not clear at all and it’s impossible to calculate reliably.

“the worst torture techniques will undoubtedly remain unreported. A number of deaths in custody also could fall into the torture category.”

I’ll use your words: “If someone can provide corroborating evidence, I would certainly take a look, but so far I have not seen any.”

But it’s more than that. In a recent movie with Russell Crowe and DiCaprio, DiCaprio had his finger smashed with a hammer. The guy who did it said…’How do YOU like Gitmo’ as if that was done there.

The fact is that the screenwriter just plain made that up. Be careful what you make up like somebody and the Gitmo Koran flushing story. Unreported atrocities. Deaths. Many on the left, like John Kerry and others demean and ridicule our military. Murtha called them killers. You seem to believe the worst.

I proffer to respect our military while acknowledging just a few exceptions to the rule.

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:33 am 159. David S:

158. Ron Kean:

Up to and before the invasion, the CIA, KGB, England, and others said he had WMD’s.

Only when told to do so. They “said” it, but they knew it wasn’t true. And they lied to Congress, too.

On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam’s inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.

[On torture...]

That’s not clear at all and it’s impossible to calculate reliably.

Innocent until proven guilty is my standard. Torture is a violation of our most fundamental human rights.

I’ll use your words: “If someone can provide corroborating evidence, I would certainly take a look, but so far I have not seen any.”

Here is a small sample. Take your time on that link, as it may open yours eyes to some possibilities you had not considered. There is much more if you are really interested. Our treatment of these men has been “sub-prime” – but covering up their murder is beneath us.

You seem to believe the worst.

On the contrary. I am simply a believer in hunting down the truth. There is good evidence that Iraq had no WMD, and that Bush knew this. There is good evidence that waterboarding is torture, and not helpful for intelligence gathering. There is good evidence that deaths in custody at Gitmo were not suicides.

I think our country can recover from these missteps and regain the trust of the world, but it will be a longer term process.

Peace.

DS

Feb 13, 2009 - 2:01 pm 160. Ron Kean:

“The circumstances of the men’s deaths have long been contentious. After the 2006 suicides, many former detainees who had known the men spoke of their shock and incredulity at the news.”

What we have here is something very common. Besides your statement about innocent until proven guilty, people on the left are very likely to believe former inmates or Moslems in general like Hamas’s statements which are soon shown to lack credibility.

From the little I understand, the Koran teaches it’s alright to lie to you and me to advance their cause. I assume you’re an infidel. It’s fact that they lie like a rug. They’re told to. They need to. I don’t believe those former inmates but it seems you may.

http://www.amazon.com/Saddams-Secrets-General-Survived-Hussein/dp/B000GYI1QU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234663050&sr=1-1

I read this book. It is credible. He says Saddam had WMD’s and moved them to Syria.

So let’s say that many people said WMD’s were there. And a couple of people said they weren’t. I would rather err on the side of safety and protection.

After 911 some people said it was a sucker punch and that that type of thing could never happen again. It’s the president’s job to insure that. Some say Saddam had no connection to Shiites or Al Quada (sp?). Many say he had and selling nasty weapons to terrorists was a possibility. With that possibility I still feel it was right to err in the name of protection. You might give Saddam, Uday, and Quesay the benefit of the doubt. Not me.

I also read this:

http://www.amazon.com/War-Decision-Inside-Pentagon-Terrorism/dp/B001K3IHVU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234663617&sr=1-1

Some, and you may be one, believe that he would lie. A neo-con agenda. You can find many links for that. I’ll believe a Christian Sada and a Jewish Feith before any Moslems in the War on Terror. That’s for sure. And I think the war is still going on.

We stand in line at the airports and national sites. It’s because of the terrorist threat. Some think Bush manufactured this fright to take power. Some think Christians and Jews are the real threat. But I fear the aims and tactics of Islam and the evidence is massive.

Those on the left would think the worst of America and American motives but not us on the right. I believe you would argue with the term ‘The Hate America Left’. Michelle Obama said she was never proud until… and of course Rev. Wright and William Ayres and so many more. I believe them.

Sadly, I believe like VDH and most on his site that Islam makes friends with the American left to try to change things here for the worst. The people in Gitmo are really different. WMD’s were a reality.

We will disagree I’m sure.

And about America’s standing in the world…If the UN is an indicator, I think the world is dead wrong. I read this:

http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/1596985275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234665578&sr=1-1

I’m from Missouri and I believe the USA is (’was’ before the 1,000 page monstrosity giving billions to ACORN and millions to save the Harvest Mouse)the last refuge of sanity.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:42 pm 161. Elizabeth:

I am trying very hard not to jump around the room cheering. Thank you for saying what needed to be said. Americans, Victor Davis Hanson knows what he’s saying, please listen!

Feb 14, 2009 - 8:33 pm 162. David S:

@160. Ron Kean:

The most important detail about the deaths in custody is that the official government records that would have identified the responsible guards was “lost”. This has nothing to do with who I believe – it has to do with the physical evidence that guards who were responsible for the safety of these inmates either recklessly or intentionally caused their deaths.

All credible sources indicated that Saddam was not in possession of WMD at the time we invaded, yet this was the primary pretext for the invasion. To err on the side of “safety and protection” does not demand a wholesale invasion and occupation of a major middle-eastern country. Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither.

All credible sources indicate that Saddam was not in league with Shiites or with Al Qaida prior to our invasion. Saddam was a Sunni ba’athist partisan, and was a long time enemy of both Shiites and Al Qaida because of his secular government. To assert a connection between these parties before 2003 is plainly false.

I’ll believe a Christian Sada and a Jewish Feith before any Moslems in the War on Terror. That’s for sure. And I think the war is still going on.

This is the problem. You are judging people by their faith, and then insisting on a war against those who disagree with you. How could the war end if this is your attitude?

The people in Gitmo are really different. WMD’s were a reality.

The people in Gitmo are still people, regardless of how different you think they are. WMD’s were a reality, back when we supplied them. They were long gone before we went in to supposedly retrieve them.

We will disagree I’m sure.

No doubt.

I’m from Missouri and I believe the USA is (’was’ before the 1,000 page monstrosity giving billions to ACORN and millions to save the Harvest Mouse)the last refuge of sanity.

Funny that. I’m from Oregon and I believe the USA is finally returning to sanity.

Peace.

DS

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:34 pm 163. Ron Kean:

” guards who were responsible for the safety of these inmates either recklessly or intentionally caused their deaths.”

You can believe the Moslem former inmates if you want.

“All credible sources”

We will disagree. Besides, there were a dozen more legal reasons to invade besides Congress voting to give Bush the authority to do it.

“To assert a connection between these parties before 2003 is plainly false.”

Wrong. Saddam was buddies with all who were against the US.

“judging people by their faith,”

I’m surprised you’re not aware of Islamic aggression and the extent to which they lie. Truth is fundamental to Christianity and Judaism even though some folks of these faiths do lie. In Islam, lying is a tenet. They use lies. This you cannot deny.

“The people in Gitmo are still people”

You may think that being ‘people’, they are good and reasonable people.

In the early 18th century, it was the Age Of Reason and people thought that ‘reason’ could unite humanity. Everybody was coming together…the Protestant the Catholic and the Jew. It produced ‘Enlightenment’ thought.

But Emmanuel Kant came along and demonstrated that ‘reason’ is actually subjective. People are affected by their environment to the extent that, for instance, a child in Gaza would be doing a perfectly reasonable thing to kill a Jew. Same with Nazi youth. Perfectly reasonable. Your reasoning tells you they’re OK. Their reasoning is very different.

It makes me wonder how many trains, buses, or high rise buildings, all full of people, will blow up to induce those who disagree with me into being stern about the differences between us and the Islamic threat.

You may say we’re bad that we gave Saddam weapons to fight Iran. Michelle says this has been a mean country. You believe former Gitmo inmates because they’re ‘people’. I wish I could convince you to choose this country as the best, recognise the threat, and wave the American flag with me.

Feb 16, 2009 - 11:33 am 164. David S:

@163. Ron Kean:
” guards who were responsible for the safety of these inmates either recklessly or intentionally caused their deaths.”

You can believe the Moslem former inmates if you want.

Again, this is not about who you believe, this is about the guards not doing their job. There is no excuse.

We will disagree. Besides, there were a dozen more legal reasons to invade besides Congress voting to give Bush the authority to do it.

Yes we will disagree, at least so long as you refuse to share on what you base your assertion of a dozen legal reasons to invade Iraq. If you make the claim, back it up with at least one or two facts. Please.

Saddam was buddies with all who were against the US.

This is the kind of simplistic thinking that got us into this mess. Again, provide some evidence if you want to argue against history.

I’m surprised you’re not aware of Islamic aggression and the extent to which they lie. Truth is fundamental to Christianity and Judaism even though some folks of these faiths do lie. In Islam, lying is a tenet. They use lies. This you cannot deny.

I vehemently deny your claim that Christianity and Judaism are devoted to truth. All three religions use lies to further their agendas. To claim a monopoly on truth based on religious differences is what got us here.

You may say we’re bad that we gave Saddam weapons to fight Iran. Michelle says this has been a mean country. You believe former Gitmo inmates because they’re ‘people’. I wish I could convince you to choose this country as the best, recognise the threat, and wave the American flag with me.

It was bad policy and bad strategy to equip Saddam with chemical weapons. We gave him the green light to use these weapons – why would we be surprised that he did so? Michelle is right that this country has been less than fair to many people throughout history. We enslaved millions and massacred the native Americans in order to confiscate their land. Our country’s history is not all peaches and cream. I didn’t weigh in for or against the Gitmo detainees – I simply pointed out that our guards did not do their job.

The USA is still a great country, and I recognize threats from within and without. I will wave the American flag, but not in the cause of an unjust war. Our country should aspire to something greater than aggravation of a pointless religious conflict.

Peace.

DS

Feb 16, 2009 - 1:02 pm 165. Ron Kean:

“that got us into this mess”

What mess? We won. The Iraqis are better off.

You may think that Christianity = Judaism = Islam.

I have failed to convince you to be wary.

You may have the last post.

Feb 16, 2009 - 2:23 pm 166. David S:

@165. Ron Kean:

The Iraqis are better off.

Who told you that the Iraqis are better off, and what was their reason for saying this? What concrete evidence can you offer that Iraqis are better off?

I suppose we could ask Iraqis…

90% of Iraqis say they were better off under Saddam Hussein
[Hans]Blix said Iraq would have been better off if the war had not happened.

“Saddam would still have been sitting in office. OK, that is negative and it would not have been joyful for the Iraqi people. But what we have gotten is undoubtedly worse,” he was quoted as saying.

Most measures of quality of life are much worse now than they had been under Saddam. Water and sanitation systems lie in ruin, electric service is severely disrupted, inflation is averaging over 25% per year, and unemployment is 25-48%, depending on the source. Yes, Iraqis have the vote – nobody thinks this is a bad thing – but this war will haunt our nation for many generations. In the interim, Iraqis are decidedly not better off, and their bitterness and resistance to our occupation is quite understandable.

I have failed to convince you to be wary.

On the contrary.

Peace.

DS

Feb 17, 2009 - 12:03 am 167. I refuse to allow my enemies to control the way I speak « The KBook Report:

[...] longer seem willing or able to fend for or better themselves is “racist.” That making factual observations about the world around me, based on the evidence of my senses and my lived expe… is [...]

Feb 21, 2009 - 10:56 am 168. SiliconDoc:

Yes, there is something strangely wrong, and we all know what it is. It is corruption and criminality, coupled with the new pop psychology, which dictates all the lies and endless untruths, the left, the democrats, the communists, the America haters, one and the same, have been mastering with their psychological lying, and using it to institute their insanely dangerous plans, for decades now.
It’s all true, and it’s all happening on autopilot, since so many have been indoctrinated true believers for decades already. They control the reigns of power, and their ability to lie and decieve is much greater than is the dissemination of truth.
We all know what it is, exactly what it is, from the inception of legalized murder in Roe vs Wade, and the horror of minds molded for decades to believe in and propagate that horror, feeding into “forgiveness for criminals” and then the excuse > “hatred of war” – the only type of mass killing, murder on a large scale, that even comes close to the murderous bloodlust of abortion on demand, the insane freaks’ standard base plank.
You see, they need an evil they can claim is as bad as their own. Their attempted cry about capital punishment has fallen away for the moment, since the problem of murdering innocents vs the convicted guiltry doesn’t play as well as “unintended casualties” of innocents as well – like babies- in war.
Yes, the strange people of the left, the demcorats, the obamabots, have some deep personal mental problems, and no doubt some “satanic evil” that rises out of them, wether they consciously realize it or not, is on it’s long generational path of destruction.
I don’t take anything any of them say with anything but the tiniest grain of salt, and find each and every time they are nothing but absolute liars.
Poor Sullivan there, burdened with his rearside freak lifestyle, can be analyzed in the way the left pop psychologists have decided to spew about everything and everyone – how they make policy and carry out their smart aleck platform of lies – since Sullivan is such a sexually depraved freak, it’s easy for him to “believe” (like a child hopefully seeing a familiar reflection as horrid as his own) that Palin also had hidden a deep dark, sexually depraved “secret”. As the old saying goes, it takes one to know one, only in this case the deranged Andrew had it all wrong. At least he had hoped it was true, so someone else could have as sick, or sicker, a profile as his own.
So, these “new pop psychology morays” – that the left has fed themselves with since the Freudian sexual pschology became their 60’s “intellectual ride” to humping anything with two legs “for peace”, have become their whole operating doctrine.
Bush attacked Iraq because of his Daddy, for instance.
It’s all war for greedy oilers. (Greed being the mental Freudian component, just short of sexual satisfaction, which used to be and still is their highest analysis principal- depsite their movement to “rape is about power” screeds – even after they search for the full load of deposited semen for evidence. Yes, they are just insane, covers it.)
So what we have is a clearly indoctrinated, moronic, lying, goofball, smart aleck, unaware , egotistical set of “know it alls” who have some pop puking crap to spew about anything – and after decades of those types of shenannigans, find it very easy to spew out any other set of lies on anything whatsoever, since they are only engaging in their mental experiments and observations or blindly repeating the new paradigm so as to become more expert practitioners of it.
It has infiltrated and corrupted everything, and the Wall Street meltdown is just another symptom of the insane ideology of smart aleck crazies that think anything goes for their agenda – and the slide into the pit of insanity and destruction, characterized by legalized criminality continues.
There really is no stopping it, or them. It would take a generation or two, and the crazed kookballs already run those power centers of indoctrination on the coming generations. So, there is no stopping them, no way to do it.
That’s how and why the strange feeling that something is terribly wrong is seeping in all around you, while driving down the highway, with the radio on. It is, they are here, they are in control, they are deranged and depraved, (they murder tens of millions of innocent babies with the demand that they are morally correct in it for instance), and they have apparently no real conscious concept of the massive destruction their deviled egg is causing, and it appears they won’t ever wake up to that fact, either.
Criminally insane, and you won’t be stopping them.

Mar 8, 2009 - 8:13 pm 169. Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » Sully’s “total political war”:

[...] seems to wrap himself around a meme and can’t seem to let go, something Victor Davis Hanson also noticed, About every three weeks Andrew Sullivan posts something about what I wrote, [...]

May 15, 2009 - 2:16 pm

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