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	<title>Comments on: Hanna, Ike, Josephine all weaken; Ike still the biggest threat</title>
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	<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/</link>
	<description>Brendan Loy\'s hurricane blog</description>
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		<title>By: Hurricane Hanna blowing through SoMd - Page 9 - Southern Maryland Community Forums</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>Hurricane Hanna blowing through SoMd - Page 9 - Southern Maryland Community Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/#comment-679</guid>
		<description>[...] Hanna is weakening. Some are saying a &#039;warm version of a Nor-Easter storm&#039;  Wunder Blog : Weather Underground  Weather Nerd </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hanna is weakening. Some are saying a &#8216;warm version of a Nor-Easter storm&#8217;  Wunder Blog : Weather Underground  Weather Nerd</p>
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		<title>By: Hurricane Hanna blowing through SoMd - Page 9 - Southern Maryland Community Forums</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-677</link>
		<dc:creator>Hurricane Hanna blowing through SoMd - Page 9 - Southern Maryland Community Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/#comment-677</guid>
		<description>[...] Hanna is weakening. Some are saying a &#039;warm version of a Nor-Easter storm&#039;  Wunder Blog : Weather Underground  Weather Nerd </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hanna is weakening. Some are saying a &#8216;warm version of a Nor-Easter storm&#8217;  Wunder Blog : Weather Underground  Weather Nerd</p>
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		<title>By: yIKEs &#171; Myrtlebeachbum</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-674</link>
		<dc:creator>yIKEs &#171; Myrtlebeachbum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 02:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/#comment-674</guid>
		<description>[...] It could be us.  And, God forbid, it could be New York.  Brendan Loy has an interesting analysis over at Weather Nerd (if you don&#8217;t know Brendan, he&#8217;s the blogger who told folks that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It could be us.  And, God forbid, it could be New York.  Brendan Loy has an interesting analysis over at Weather Nerd (if you don&#8217;t know Brendan, he&#8217;s the blogger who told folks that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: FlyOnTneWall</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-670</link>
		<dc:creator>FlyOnTneWall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Subways, tunnels, steam pipes, electrical conduits - all the things that run NYC run beneath the streets. It would be a catastrophic nightmare if it got hit by a hurricane; I certainly don&#039;t mean to suggest otherwise. (And the outages would affect the entire city, not just the flooded portions. That&#039;s the vulnerability of complex systems.) What I was trying to suggest is that although NYC&#039;s infrastructure is tremendously vulnerable, its people are largely safe. The buildings are extremely unlikely to fail. The flooding will hit substantial portions of some boroughs, but there&#039;s high ground a few blocks away. The city has many links to the surrounding region, and although the tunnels might have trouble, the major bridges could certainly withstand even the strongest storm. The northeastern corridor is remarkably dense, and shelters and housing relatively easily available. 

That&#039;s why it&#039;s not the evacuation that scares me. It&#039;s largely unnecessary. The scary thing is the day - and the week - after the storm hits. Millions without power, or quite likely, potable water. Most major infrastructure disabled or destroyed. And since many of the most vulnerable areas are also among the most impoverished, a displaced population that may prove difficult to control. We saw chaos reign in New Orleans after the storm; New York City could be much worse. Those are my fears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Subways, tunnels, steam pipes, electrical conduits &#8211; all the things that run NYC run beneath the streets. It would be a catastrophic nightmare if it got hit by a hurricane; I certainly don&#8217;t mean to suggest otherwise. (And the outages would affect the entire city, not just the flooded portions. That&#8217;s the vulnerability of complex systems.) What I was trying to suggest is that although NYC&#8217;s infrastructure is tremendously vulnerable, its people are largely safe. The buildings are extremely unlikely to fail. The flooding will hit substantial portions of some boroughs, but there&#8217;s high ground a few blocks away. The city has many links to the surrounding region, and although the tunnels might have trouble, the major bridges could certainly withstand even the strongest storm. The northeastern corridor is remarkably dense, and shelters and housing relatively easily available. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s not the evacuation that scares me. It&#8217;s largely unnecessary. The scary thing is the day &#8211; and the week &#8211; after the storm hits. Millions without power, or quite likely, potable water. Most major infrastructure disabled or destroyed. And since many of the most vulnerable areas are also among the most impoverished, a displaced population that may prove difficult to control. We saw chaos reign in New Orleans after the storm; New York City could be much worse. Those are my fears.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Loy</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-668</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Loy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/#comment-668</guid>
		<description>P.S. When you look at the &quot;green zone&quot; on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/downloads/pdf/hurricane_map_english.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;map&lt;/a&gt;, I would characterize that as reasonably high vulnerability to Cat. 3-4 storm surge, given how many people -- and how much infrastructure -- is packed into those areas.

Of course, as the map says, &quot;A major hurricane is unlikely in New York City, but not impossible.&quot; I would add that, depending on the storm&#039;s direction, a Cat. 2 might be &lt;i&gt;effectively&lt;/i&gt; a Cat. 3 or 4, if its forward speed is fast enough (a la the 1938 Long Island Express, which was moving north at &lt;i&gt;60 mph&lt;/i&gt;, thus adding a whole tropical storm&#039;s worth of punch to the right-front quadrant).

Admittedly, the particular angle of approach into NYC necessary to make that scenario happen is very unlikely... I would assume we&#039;re talking about, like, a thousand-year storm, or something in that ballpark. Like Berger said: &quot;low threat, high consequence.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. When you look at the &#8220;green zone&#8221; on the <a href="http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/downloads/pdf/hurricane_map_english.pdf" rel="nofollow">map</a>, I would characterize that as reasonably high vulnerability to Cat. 3-4 storm surge, given how many people &#8212; and how much infrastructure &#8212; is packed into those areas.</p>
<p>Of course, as the map says, &#8220;A major hurricane is unlikely in New York City, but not impossible.&#8221; I would add that, depending on the storm&#8217;s direction, a Cat. 2 might be <i>effectively</i> a Cat. 3 or 4, if its forward speed is fast enough (a la the 1938 Long Island Express, which was moving north at <i>60 mph</i>, thus adding a whole tropical storm&#8217;s worth of punch to the right-front quadrant).</p>
<p>Admittedly, the particular angle of approach into NYC necessary to make that scenario happen is very unlikely&#8230; I would assume we&#8217;re talking about, like, a thousand-year storm, or something in that ballpark. Like Berger said: &#8220;low threat, high consequence.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Loy</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Loy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/#comment-667</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the links, BTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the links, BTW.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Loy</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Loy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/#comment-666</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;New York simply isn’t all that vulnerable to storm surge flooding&lt;/i&gt;

Maybe not the above-ground portions, but wouldn&#039;t it flood substantial portions of the subways?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>New York simply isn’t all that vulnerable to storm surge flooding</i></p>
<p>Maybe not the above-ground portions, but wouldn&#8217;t it flood substantial portions of the subways?</p>
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		<title>By: FlyOnTneWall</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/weathernerd/2008/09/04/hanna-ike-josephine-all-weaken-ike-still-the-biggest-threat/comment-page-1/#comment-665</link>
		<dc:creator>FlyOnTneWall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 19:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, I don&#039;t think you&#039;d need to evacuate 4 million people from NYC. The City&#039;s OEM actually has some decently useful information up on its &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/html/ready/hurricane_guide.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;website&lt;/a&gt;. The key thing to remember is that New Orleans is a bathub - breach the wall, and it floods. New York City is largely well above sea level, and even a Cat-5 storm would leave the great bulk of the city high and dry. (There are useful maps on the site that confirm this.) The buildings in the city are also built to unusually strict codes, for a variety of reasons. 

So it would be a disaster. And the southern part of Brooklyn, Lower Manhattan, and Staten Island, in particular, would be devastated. In fact, they&#039;d be hit pretty hard by a hurricane of any size. But New York simply isn&#039;t all that vulnerable to storm surge flooding, and that&#039;s often the most devastating aspect of a hurricane. The real challenge, I suspect, won&#039;t be evacuation, but rather, law enforcement. That&#039;s what broke down so memorably during Katrina. NYC has an enormous police force, but it isn&#039;t equal to this kind of challenge. Nor, for that matter, is the overstretched national guard. The hurricane would be bad; I suspect the aftermath would be even uglier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;d need to evacuate 4 million people from NYC. The City&#8217;s OEM actually has some decently useful information up on its <a href="http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/html/ready/hurricane_guide.shtml" rel="nofollow">website</a>. The key thing to remember is that New Orleans is a bathub &#8211; breach the wall, and it floods. New York City is largely well above sea level, and even a Cat-5 storm would leave the great bulk of the city high and dry. (There are useful maps on the site that confirm this.) The buildings in the city are also built to unusually strict codes, for a variety of reasons. </p>
<p>So it would be a disaster. And the southern part of Brooklyn, Lower Manhattan, and Staten Island, in particular, would be devastated. In fact, they&#8217;d be hit pretty hard by a hurricane of any size. But New York simply isn&#8217;t all that vulnerable to storm surge flooding, and that&#8217;s often the most devastating aspect of a hurricane. The real challenge, I suspect, won&#8217;t be evacuation, but rather, law enforcement. That&#8217;s what broke down so memorably during Katrina. NYC has an enormous police force, but it isn&#8217;t equal to this kind of challenge. Nor, for that matter, is the overstretched national guard. The hurricane would be bad; I suspect the aftermath would be even uglier.</p>
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