Since both Charles Johnson and Paul Belien are friends of Pajamas Media (indeed, Charles was a co-founder), I have sat out their “blog war.” I can’t stay silent anymore.
In today’s Washington Times, Paul Belien has a terrific piece on Hitler’s surprisingly positive view of Islam. Johnson should read it and call a truce.
Here’s the back story: Johnson accused Belien and his band of associating with “neo-nazis”–i.e. the Vlaams Belang, Belgium’s largest voter getter in the most recent national election. Johnson seems to think that the Vlaams Belang is some tiny poisonous fringe, like the followers of Larouche.
In truth, it enjoys the largest support of any party in Belgium because it alone violates the political correct cordon that protects radical Islam in Europe. The party is the sole defender of the embattled Jews in Antwerp, who are regularly attacked by Muslim immigrants. The party has complained about the rising violent crime rate that bedevils Belgium–and there is little reason to doubt official statistics that Muslim immigrants are behind this horrifying rise in violent attacks. And so on.
How do I know this? I lived in Beligum from 2000 to 2005, working for the Wall Street Journal Europe and European think tank. I have known Belien and his wife, who is, yes, a member of the Belgian parliament for the Vlaams Belang, for almost seven years and they have been guests in home in both Brussels and Washington. They are free-market conservatives whose views are identical mainstream Republicans in the U.S. They are pro-America and pro-Israel–which, last I checked, are not standard neo-nazi positions.
The Vlaams Belang is a mixed bag, like all genuine grassroots parties. I have met the party leaders. While they are not as free-market or as tolerant as Belien, they are not racists. Their closest American equivalent is Rep. Tom Tancredo, who while given to a single-issue mono-mania is also not a racist.
I suspect that Charles Johnson has not met any of the Vlaams Belang leadership or even interviewed them. He is simply following a left-wing link. He does not offer evidence, based not on his own experience, reporting or careful deliberation, but simply links to web sites of virulent critics–virtually all of whom have not interviewed party leaders or spent any time understanding the nuances of Belgian politics. The blind leading the blind.
These sites simply repeat a left-wing prejudice against the Vlaams Belang, which no matter how imperfect is not a bunch of neo-nazis. The European left wants large numbers of Muslim immigrants–they need the votes to make up for the loss of working class and union votes that have been slowly migrating away from them parties for the past two decades. And the Muslim migrants vote overwhelming for the left in every western European country.
Of course, any party that threatens the left’s hold on power (by calling for restrictions on immigration, measures to protect the rights of women and Jews and so on) is immediately branded racist or worst.
Why take the word of political rivals’ at face value–without contacting the accused yourself? Do you we turn to right-wing ideologues for objective coverage of Hillary Clinton? Or do we weigh their statements against evidence?
This underlines the biggest weakness of the web–and underscores why bloggers will not displace the MSM anytime soon. Links are not evidence; they are leads to be seriously investigated. It is time for the web to grow up.
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87 Comments
Kat:For a rebuttal, since you willfully disregard research- http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27841_Miniter_Misre
presents_LGF_Vlaams_Belang_Posts&only
Maybe you should have kept out of it, this just makes you look silly.
Nov 8, 2007 - 11:47 am Thanos:You need to do further research.Much of information presented comes not from left wing sites, but from news reports, magazines on Vlaams Belang’s own site, their youth group sites, their own words, and their know associations.
Nov 8, 2007 - 12:08 pm Thanos:These associations include membership in a special group in the EU parliament with Le Pen, the Grand-daughter of Il-Duce, and others who are virulently racist and anti-semitic. If you care to debate the facts, I have reams of them.
The facts include white power symbols on their websites, on their banners, in their youth magazines. They include cartoons of Serena Williams, statements and speeches from the leaders, the history of their founder and the genesis of their political philosophy — a brand of tribal nationalism that allows to deep a connection with cultural and racial purists.
The entire argument against the research done never disputes the facts, but instead attacks the persons doing the research and the sources of information, a tactic Hillary is very fond of. If you have something to dispute the facts Kevin, Then please do bring it, otherwise I submit you need to look at what has been presented before you step in. I don’t believe you have.
Make that Richard instead of Kevin.
Nov 8, 2007 - 12:10 pm Vince P:Referring to Kat’s message:
Take that Mr. Miniter! Who are you going to believe.. your first hand experience and knoweldge of actually being around those people
or
the links from google that someone in the United States found
LOL
My God.. when this absurdity going to end.
Nov 8, 2007 - 12:39 pm Bill M:Well Vince P, who are you going to believe, RM’s poorly researched criticism of where LGF got the information or information from Vlaams Belang official websites and publications? Chamberlain thought Hitler was a reasonable person after talking to him. That turned out well.
Nov 8, 2007 - 12:56 pm Thanos:Vince get a clue, the links in many cases are to VB’s own websites. Why don’t you follow some of them and learn a bit before joining the discussion?
Please start with this group, research the non-VB names and members, then come back if you have comment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity,_Tradition,_Sovereignty
Nov 8, 2007 - 1:17 pm JDub:Because wikipedia is clearly the most reliable source of information. Well done Thanos. (If you can’t catch that this is dripping with sarcasm… well, here, I’ll help. I’m being sarcastic. Miniter has lived in Belgium, as he states, and believe it or not, knows a thing or two about the organization and it’s aims. Just a thought.
Nov 8, 2007 - 1:37 pm Thanos:JDub, the wiki link lists the members of the group accurately, I am asking that you do your own research, which you seem incapable of. A very wise person once characterized sarcasm as the weapon of the weak.
Nov 8, 2007 - 1:47 pm Thanos:The members are who they are, Alessandre Mussolini is not someone I would ally with period. Neither is either Le Pen. Please go do some research before you speak on things you know nothing of.
Jdub Here is what is said in reply at LGF.
Nov 8, 2007 - 1:50 pm RE:http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27841_Miniter_Misre
Please follow some of the links in the article, there are masses and masses of data there. When you have some actual facts, come on back and we can discuss.
I just cannot muster up the sanctimony and moral superiority necessary to march in step with the lizards at LGF on this one. It smells like a witch hunt turned highly personal. (Of course I reserve the right to change my mind should the Belgians start developing nukes to wipe Israel off the map).
The end of this Inquisition will be welcome. It accomplishes nothing.
Nov 8, 2007 - 1:55 pm Dusty:Richard, quit arguing from authority, by saying ‘I think this’ and ‘I think that’ and put up some facts. LGF has provided well researched and properly sourced and linked information to back up his arguments and all you have is your unverifiable personal experiences.
BTW, arguing an odious ideology is the sole province of tiny poisonous fringe groups, thus couldn’t possibly be true of the group VB, because VB is popular, is ludicrus, especially when trying to defend a popular group against accusations of National Socialist proclivities.
Nov 8, 2007 - 2:11 pm Thanos:What VB’s favored cartoonist, Frederick Pas, aka Fre, thinks of one of the finest tennis players in the world, from his own site.
Nov 8, 2007 - 2:12 pm KGS:http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/545/572/20070328/dyn010_original_780_1026_pjpeg_2545572_3841d4f1ec06e8b293dffa3b041d0a3f.jpg
Frederick is known for his cartoon reviews in the VB youth magazine, which features a standard header with a rat wearing a white power armband.
OK, if some intend to drag out old fotos of people in uniform with Adolf Hitler, to prove a point, how about this? :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hitler_Mannerheim_Ryti.jpg
Not only was Gustav Mannerheim and Rissto Rytti Finnish heroes, they most certainly were not Nazis.
But by your standard, (Thanos and C.Johnson) they must be…!
Nov 8, 2007 - 2:20 pm Thanos:So DeGrelle is not currently a holocaust denier because of some old Finnish photos? VB leaders are not seen in current photos with him?
Nov 8, 2007 - 2:28 pm Sodra Djavul:VB members are not members of ITS in the EU?
Please stop trying to distract, it will not work.
Nothing provided by LGF can be considered to rise to the level of evidence as would be necessary for publication in the mainstream media. At best, this is pure “guilt by association.” In fact, Charles tactics throughout this entire episode remind me, ironically, of the tactics he frequently claims his opponents use to smear him.
Paul Belien is a long-time professional journalist. The readership of LGF, regardless of their illusions of grandeur, have decidedly less impressive journalistic credentials.
Charles banning of all dissenting voices from his site throughout this episode has merely clinched in my mind, and most likely in the minds of many others, just who is in the right on this issue.
Nov 8, 2007 - 2:40 pm Mr Biggles:lol. you haf violated ze groupsink Richard. This vill not be tolerated. Ve haf vays of enforcing ze groupsink you know…
the big mistake Johnson made was getting all personal with people. setting his own opinion about how to deal with this issue above everything else. not mature. lgf is just a controversy site now. i hope it goes back.
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:02 pm Anthony (Los Angeles):Bruce Bawer has lived in Europe (the Netherlands and Norway) for quite a long time, and his anti-jihad credentials are as good as yours, Richard. How then do you explain his opinion of VB, which agrees with Charles?
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:09 pm KGS:If the pictures are supposed to prove something everytime they are dragged out for viewing, then you are automatically asuming guilt by association.
what are you going to say about the Finnish Jewish soldiers who fought along side (at times) with German soldiers against the Soviets?
I personally know the son of one of the founders of the Jewish field synagogue in Finnish Karalia During WWII.
German soldiers visited the field synagogue out of curiosity. Are all these Jews, plus the Helsinki Jewish community to be labeled as having a “dark past” for Finland’s allience with Nazi Germany?
How do you answer that one?
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:29 pm Thanos:We are not talking about Finland, it’s inconsequential to this discussion. The fact is that the pictures are of a VB leader who is friendly with a holocaust denier and ex-nazi. You can go to VB’s own site and see their own campaign videos with their leaders marching in front of banners with Lebens runes on them, with people in hats with Odal runes on them. You can find video on the web of Filip Dewinter fighting police to get to a German graveyard with wehrmacht and SS soldiers in it to lay flowers on their graves. You can find video produced by Filip himself that shows his favored photograph with Le Pen on his bookcase. You can see in the same video Stormfront’s logo. You can see in various videos from VB various runes also used by BNP and the other nationalist parties. You can see newsreels of the leaders of VB in their old days with Vlaamse Militant Order, something you should look into. (Go see their own site, look at the “acties” in the left scroll bar) There’s more…
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:46 pm AngleofRepose:Well, Anthony, if we’re gonna appeal to authority here, how about the fact that it was Dr. Andrew Bostom who sent the link to Dymphna in regards to that piece on American Thinker?
You know, the same Dr. Bostom who was there at the conference? How then do you explain his opinion of VB, which doesn’t agree with Charles?
Feh.
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:46 pm KGS:Oh, one more thing, DeGrelle is dead, so he is not currently a holocaust denier. The picture had to be taken before 1994, over thirteen years ago.
Your information is a bit outdated Thanos.
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:50 pm KGS:I can understand Thanos’s wanting to not discuss the Finnish comparison, because it causes him a lot of inconvenient thinking.
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:53 pm Thanos:Angel, how do opinions belie hard facts? The artical was also all speculative opinion, and paranoid at that. VB infiltrated by leftists who want to discredit them.. pish.
You can go to VB”s site and see children’s magazines with white power symbols in them. You can go to elected officials sites in VB and see the same symbol used by KKK/Stormfront in the site banner. Those are facts.
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:57 pm Thanos:By current I meant not forty years agone. Try again
Nov 8, 2007 - 3:58 pm Mr Biggles:Irrefutable evidence!
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6792/poolxp0.jpg
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:01 pm Thanos:I understand everyone not wanting to look at the facts because they cannot deny them. Keep it up, there are lots of folks reading who haven’t seen the evidence I suspect, and I can keep posting the evidence all day long.
Folks interested in facts: please take a look at voorpost on the web, do some digging look into their association with VB. Look for contrary and affirmative evidence to the discussion at hand and make up your own minds please.
Here is a link to a podcast interview with Filip Dewinter from Shire network news, listen and then make up your own mind.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:04 pm Thanos:http://podcast.shirenetworknews.net/:entry:tuatara-2007-10-30-0002/
I just noted the Frederick Pas link above isn’t working, here’s a better one
http://spotprent.skynetblogs.be/post/4331930/serena-williams#comments
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:08 pm Sharmuta:“the big mistake Johnson made was getting all personal with people.”
He did no such thing- in fact HE was the one whom personal attacks were made against. If you’d actually look at the links he’s provided and do some reading you’d know this.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:09 pm Mr Biggles:Oh, so it was like no big attack on the conference, just a quiet personal decision not to attend, and BANG! random attacks out of the blue? Wow….. that defies the law of conservation of flaming.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:14 pm AngleofRepose:Um, they don’t Thanos, but it was Anthony that pulled the old appeal to authority.. that’s why I wrote, “feh”.
I’ve seen all that, and more. In fact, I’ve been in touch with Fré Pas. He’s obviously asleep right now, so I gotta wait for his answers to my questions about the rat, etc.
So you can FO with that crap about not wanting all the facts.. I’ve actually gone to the source.. you know, independent of what Charles puts out there.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:16 pm Mr Biggles:let’s keep this civil, posters. what are we, common leftists?
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:19 pm IoshkaFutz:America’s biggest ally in Italy was (and will probably soon be again) Berlusconi of Forza Italia. Forza Italia’s biggest coalition partner is Alleanza Nazionale which was born out of MSI, Movimento Sociale Italiano, as Fascist as any party could be in postwar Italy. In the late seventies, the party, which unlike the others wasn’t corrupt and was not in cahoots with the PCI (Italian Communist Party) continued to grow, especially in certain provinces and regions, but was ostracized from joining any coalition. They decided to clean up their act, losing 29 out of 45 elected diehard deputies who formed a far right splinter group (and were later blitzed by the electorate).
Want flags, Roman salutes, Viva il Duces? Dig into the past of Berlusconi’s biggest coalition partner, staunchly pro-American, staunchly pro-Israel, pro-family, anti-abortion.
Demand a lily-white past? You won’t get one in Europe. But America could start to be really serious about her own present political morality, but divesting from China. Now there’s a “funny” amazingly tragic story: Americas’s biggest trading partner (so big it’s hard to pass a single day without buying one of her products) is still run by the heirs of a fellow called Mao, presently still on proud display (like Lenin was) in a Mausoleum, a fellow responsible for the deaths of 60-70 million of his own people. And these heirs are the main supporters of North Korea (as in reduced to cannibalism) and Burma (as in thousands of monks slaughtered, beaten and incarcerated).
Oh Bad bad Felip DeWinter, the racist who’s not a racist, but a nationalist, proud standard bearer of the superior Flemish-Belgian race! Come on, everybody knows that the Belgians are superior!
Or could it just be that they want to protect, defend, cherish a culture that predates all politics, by making sure that a predatory group, called the Muslims, noted since the 7th century for wreaking havoc, ruin, backwardness, cruelty, mysogeny, stupidity everywhere they have gone, does not change their culture?
As an Italian I understand them. We’re on Republic 22 and our hallowed founders wore togas. What defines us is more than a we-the-people piece of paper, but a million and one things… that were not meant to be frozen, but to at least enjoy the luxury of a continuum: as in beer being drunk, some sense of chivalry towards women, logic that isn’t always and damningly circular (as in Ford makes the best cars because Ford motor company says so), as in forgiveness stronger than revenge, Christian Churches and Jewish Synagogues, ham sandwiches, the whirls and swirls of our own language, music, dances. As in not being part of some Darul Islam Ummah… little crappy stuff, no doubt to big and broad China’s biggest trading partner America.
IoshkaFutz once Capuccino at LGF, who requested and was granted by Charles Magic Johnson to be delizarded… after they banned Fjordman, who as far as I’m concerned is also Mediterranean-man, Alp-Man, Appenine-man, Po-River-Valley-man!
Hey, how about some Frank Zappa (via Captain Beefheart):
She’s 200 years old,
so mean, she couldn’t grow no lips
Boy, she’d be in trouble if she tried to grow a mustache
She’s two hundred years old
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:21 pm Sharmuta:Squattin’ down & pockin’ up
In front of the juke box
just like she had True Religion.. BOY!
Biggles- you’re stretching. Again- if you’d do your reading you know better that to suggest this. I’m not here to spoon feed you.
And I’m sure it means nothing that conference attendee Robert Spencer has pulled Brussels Journal from his blog roll.
And with paul’s wife being in vb it’s not like he has a conflict of interest or anything.
But please- keep talking. It’s much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff this way.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:27 pm Sharmuta:This isn’t about China- this is about crypto-fascists in europe! Quit obfuscating.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:30 pm Thanos:Please do contact Fre, I am interested in the explanation. There are several things in the youth magazines I find disturbing. I’m also not too happy with the portrayal of Serena Williams, and what he would have to say about that. I’m sure we can come up with some rationalization right? Meanwhile, others are looking at the links and deciding for themselves. Here is the link to the youth magazines, flip through a few and see what you think.
http://www.vbj.org/index.php?id=20011
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:32 pm Thanos:Here’s the link to the voorpost site, that is a rifle the lebens rune flag is on.
http://www.voorpost.org/
and a spear for the valkyrie right?
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:35 pm Mr Biggles:separate the wheat from the chaff? how pompous.
“This isn’t about China”, “this isn’t about Finland”, this is only about your own narrow definition of the issues. might as well be watching the bbc.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:35 pm Thanos:I see the “tribal nationalists” from all over Europe are coming out to play.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:36 pm Sharmuta:What a stunning refutation, mr. biggles.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:38 pm IoshkaFutz:Sharmuta,
I’m not obfuscating. It’s about politics, morals and what’s important. It’s about America’s big Italian ally called Alleanza Nazionale with a past that they’ve overcome. It’s about the time frame of the struggle 1400 years! It’s about what will get blitzed if the Muslims take over Belgium… and it will be a lot more than politics… but culture… a culture that’s way older than your way of viewing the issue. And yes it’s about a fellow called Filip DeWinter, an altar boy compared to the people your country (and mine as well) has no qualms of supporting… a country that even managed to out-Hitler Hitler!
LGF is obfuscating with its petty little We-are-the-righteous-Americans nonsense and its blindered view of the big picture. Go ahead, see Jack with evil man Jean in that picture! Oh boy, bad! Very bad! And now everybody thank Charles for saving democracy!
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:40 pm Sharmuta:IoshkaFutz- key word being “overcome”. vlaams belang has yet to do that. And how can you speak of morals and then rail against those standing by their own? Isn’t that a bit hypocritical?
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:43 pm Mr Biggles:personal attacks, ignoring relevant issues, a pitbull-like attachment to the part of the issue they feel most comfortable in. it’s no different from leftist blogs at all.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:43 pm IoshkaFutz:No Thanos,
In this case you fellows are the tribalists for not taking culture into consideration, but only your creed. (Which if I’m not mistaken has Dhimmies - the American Indians, who are allowed their tribality. Perhaps the Flemish can all join the Cherokees? The Navajos? What’s culture? If they were Jewish they could all move to Israel, because quite rightfully, Israel has a mix of ideals and culture and allows any Jew, but not any old Wop like me citizenship. The irony of it all!
You might even want to read Hanna Arendt for some Nazi ties to the Zionists themselves. Forgiven, forgotten…
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:45 pm Sharmuta:Mr Biggles :
personal attacks, ignoring relevant issues, a pitbull-like attachment to the part of the issue they feel most comfortable in. it’s no different from leftist blogs at all.
Yes- I sure wish brussels journal, gates of vienna and others would stop it.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:45 pm Thanos:AN overcame their past by disavowing it, denouncing it, and servering ties with those who would not. VB still marches in the streets with Leben runes and banners with “Amnestie NU!” (Amnesty now!) for nazi collaborators.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:45 pm Thanos:What about culture am I not taking into consideration? Please explain.
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:48 pm IoshkaFutz:Sharmuta,
Vlaams has done it. Read the party literature. That’s what gets them elected. The Flemish Belgians are not Nazis. They rightfully want their own country, like the Slovaks wanted to split from Czechoslovakia. They too, the Slovaks have a murky past. They even joined (actually were forced to join) Hitler to break free (unsuccessfully), whereupon they were relegated to third class status… but today they are a wonderful, democratic and thriving little country. It’s not Zieg Heil, it’s rock ‘n’ roll… and it’s not even the party that got them independent anymore, but some other creep. The Flemish are about as Nazi as the sicilians!
But a European country that cracks down on Islamic immigration! Wow-wee! Brussels Belgium the capital of a Europe that has lost its mind splitting up! Hooray!
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:54 pm Sharmuta:IoshkaFutz-
You mean like the party platform?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang#Party_platform
Where it grants full amnesty to nazi collaborators? Is that what is supposed to convince me they’ve renounced their past? So I should just ignore the video of dewinter saying vlaams belang is still vlaams blok?
Nov 8, 2007 - 4:58 pm Sharmuta:Banned LGFer-
I think you’re reading that wrong. See- he doesn’t share LePen’s views on having special relations with the islamic world. So I don’t think it’s the damning quote you think it is.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:06 pm IoshkaFutz:Sorry Thanos,
But that stuff is not mainsteam Vlaams. You can bet your butt that in any nationalist movement (a strong desire to be your own country because you speak a different language, you pay all the bills), you’re gonna collect all sorts of riffraff.
I guess if Americans got worried about becoming a Mexican country (and you don’t know how lucky you’d be, for at least they don’t celebrate the murderous suicide of their own children, they drink, dance, flirt - y’know cultural stuff that might be different, but isn’t from 7th century Arabia and is anyhow joyful)… where was I? Damn! If America wanted not to go so far, so fast, you’d have all sorts of likeminded people among the crazies.
Concerning the SS stuff, it was Wehrmacht. Italy just went through something similar where to cap all the old bad crap, they laid a wreathe on the graves of the partisans and then on the graves of the Social Republic stalwarts. The historical booboo gets transcended (besides the fact that the communist partisans were anything but altar boys, having rounded up and murdered thousands of innocent people after the war).
Look at it this way: you could be blinded by your own righteousness. This is not a call for Hillary Clinton “nuance”… this is about getting over the very ugly )oftentimes ugly on all sides) history of Europe. My father-in-law is a German who was kicked out of his home in Breslau (Silesia) after the war. It was revenge. His ancestral home was taken over by Poles and his town was renamed Wroclow. Along the way hundreds of thousands of Germans were slaughtered. For years not a peep. Just as for years not a peep about the slaughtering partisans. Just the good guys and the bad guys. My country was with the bad guys… and after the war had to deal with them, bring them around. For you a Fascist is some wild and wooly beast, for me it could be an uncle, the next door neighbor. It’s different - and yes - for cultural reasons it’s closer to the dirt.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:12 pm Thanos:Iosha, it’s not the past that bothers us, it’s very recent history, within the last 25 years. I don’t think either I or Sharmuta think the bulk of VB are bad people, they just have questionable leadership, poor strategy, and seem opportunistic. I don’t have any beef with a separate Flemish state either, but overall how many splinters can the countries of Europe split into before they become pure chaos and WW V?
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:13 pm AngleofRepose:The part I can’t stand is that they profess to be for liberty but in the same breath say “eigen volk veerst”.
Liberty goes to individuals, not groups - the constitution that covers me applies equally to the Indians you mentioned, 1/3 Cherokee myself, I’m not on a reservation. VB also adopts the same arguments and logic that our enemies do, thereby handing them ammunition. Note that Islamism isn’t just driven by the political Qutbist movement, it garners support through tribal nationalists and sectarianism in the Muslim world.
Oh, and another thing. Richard has a point about Charles’ using leftist attack sites to build his case.
Take for example his addition of those pictures of the rat: “LGF reader Killgore Trout scoured up two more images of the White Nationalist rat cartoon from other sources (Belgian far-right sites):”
NOT!
They’re freaking socialists!
And he didn’t provide a link to that site, either. Hmmm.. wonder why?
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:16 pm AngleofRepose:Well gee, Sharmuta. Did you read the whole thing or only the bolded part? Here, let me help you out:
But we don’t like Haider’s kowtowing to dictators such as Saddam Houssein or Khadaffi. We don’t like Le Pen’s typically French views of centralisation, we don’t like his anti-Americanism and we absolutely don’t like his anti-Jewish provocations.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:20 pm Sharmuta:IoshkaFutz- you can justify it to yourself however you’d like, but in America we have freedom of association. This means we can also choose not to join a group. And many of us have chosen- we will not ally with those we suspect have crypto-fascist elements. We feel it’s a recipe for disaster. You’re free to view it however you’d like, but don’t expect everyone to agree with you.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:20 pm Sharmuta:Banned one-
And politicians never lie?
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:22 pm Thanos:Angel, the link is in the thread with the article in comments. We use several sources, including VB sites, NGO reports, sites that are communist, sites that are socialist, sites that are journalists. You have to seek both affirmative and negative if you hope to arrive at truth. The rat signs from the leftist sites are posted to demonstrate that it’s not an “unknown symbol” or celtic cross. That Odin’s cross does sit on Filip’s bookcase, just as in Filip’s own video footage you can see that same picture of him and Le Pen. If he doesn’t value the relationship, then why is the photo in a frame in his bookcase? What’s the point of that?
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:23 pm AngleofRepose:Well, I realize that, Thanos.
Here’s the text of my letter to Fré Pas:
Basically, in the VB’s case, it’s the same old, same old.. they’re being accused of racism, neo-nazism and being White Nationalists. The reason I came to you is that you seem to be the cartoonist who drew that rat with the armband which has what some consider the Odin’s Cross on it, often associated with white nationalists/neo-nazis etc. (if you didn’t draw/create that rat, please set me straight).
My questions/concerns are:
Can you explain the significance of the rat, the armband and the Odin’s Cross that is used in nearly every publication of the VrijVlaanderen? It’s quite confusing, because I’ve also seen it on another website (VJW), who seem quite hostile to the VB, Israel and America. So why is it also in the VrijVlaanderen? Also, why is the Odin’s Cross seen not only in the magazine, but on Filip Dewinter’s bookcase? The VB’s use of it is now being used to smear the VB (guilt by association).
In closing, I simply want to get the facts straight before passing any kind of judgment. I’ve only just recently become aware of the VB, and with the accusations from certain conservatives here in the US, I decided to do my own research. For obvious reasons, I know diddly squat about the history/use of that rat, so please fill me in and set me straight.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:35 pm Sharmuta:Oh- and richard? Why should Charles be the one to call a truce? He was the one who was attacked first and repeatedly. Of course- if you had researched this issue- you would have known that.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:36 pm Thanos:Angel, thanks for making the inquiry. Everyone has the right to defend themselves and their worldview. I do not speak Dutch, so I am handicapped. I am interested in the response, so if you get one please let me know, you can drop a comment or send me email from my blog.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:39 pm AngleofRepose:Wait, let me get this straight, Sharm. First you say:
Banned LGFer-
I think you’re reading that wrong. See- he doesn’t share LePen’s views on having special relations with the islamic world. So I don’t think it’s the damning quote you think it is.
And then you say:
And politicians never lie?
So, you believed him at first, and then you don’t?
I’m done with ya.
PS, you’ve got some brown stuff on your nose.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:41 pm AngleofRepose:Thanos, I don’t speak Flemish/Dutch either.
Here’s my original correspondence (note the subject line):
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:41:58 +0100
From: frederikpas@gmail.com
To: [redacted]
Subject: Re: Do you speak English? (Spreekt u het Engels?)
I think you meant “VBJ”. You can ask your questions.
sincerely yours,
Fré Pas
Op 07-11-07 heeft [redacted]> het volgende geschreven:
I have some questions that I would like to ask you concerning the VBiJ.
(Ik heb sommige vragen dat ik u zou willen vragen betreffende VBiJ.)*
*translation from babel fish
*vertaling van (Nederlands) Babel Vissen
Danke,
************************
Anyways, I sent that yesterday and found his reply this morning. Maybe the others would be willing to correspond as well. Some of them seem to speak english quite well.
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:46 pm AngleofRepose:If he doesn’t value the relationship, then why is the photo in a frame in his bookcase? What’s the point of that?
I dunno, why don’t you ask him?
Nov 8, 2007 - 5:57 pm Sodra Djavul:Sharmuta: Oh- and richard? Why should Charles be the one to call a truce? He was the one who was attacked first and repeatedly. Of course- if you had researched this issue- you would have known that.
I see your point, oh wise one. Apparently accusing someone or a political party of harboring Nazi sentiment without any direct evidence to support such an outlandish claim is not an attack at all. Just “framing a question.” Got it.
Hey Sharmuta, Salem called. They want their angry mob back. And if you could see it in your heart to return all those pitchforks you stole that would be ever so peachy.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:10 pm Thanos:Here’s the link to the video we are talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoXRviYjWAQ
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:24 pm Uncle Joe Stalin:I really can’t believe how this “controversy” has taken over the blogosphere.
I don’t really care about ANY of this. Islamists are trying to destroy a whole civilization, and now we’ve been reduced to name calling over a comeplete load of nonsense.
The USA and the UK sucked it up and dealt with Satan himself, Josef Stalin, in order to defeat Adolf Hitler. The Islamocreeps are even worse. I don’t give a damn if some neo-Nazi jerks want the Islamists out. We can deal with them AFTER the Islamists have been defeated.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:27 pm Thanos:The reply doesn’t tell us much, are you expecting more?
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:27 pm IoshkaFutz:Ciao again Sharmuta and Thanos,
Yes you have freedom of association and so do we in Europe and so does everybody on the Internet (with those funky proxy-watchamacallits). That’s not the point. What is important is that you hear the other side. In fact, I’ve slapped myself at least a dozen times for de-lizarding myself, but I was pissed off about Fjordman, who for me is a hero.
Now Thanos, you get upset about tribality and I know very well where you’re coming from. I grew up in Mamaroneck New York. For me America is the “old country.” And when I was there my mother married a Yiddish speaking old world Jew from Minsk. You can imagine what sort of anti-semite I am! My nome de plume is IoshkaFutz which old Max told me meant “ne’er-do-well” in his Yiddish (he called me that when he heard how poorly I played the cello). I studied under the sweetest kindest maestro who ever lived: Heinrich Joachim. When I read his obituary, I cried.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04E0DB1239F932A15754C0A9649C8B63
Then I moved to Italy in the late Sixties. Italy, Thanos… about 70 per cent of all the world’s art. A never-ending history, churches with three / four levels. Regions so different that commedians from the North don’t get laughs from audiences from the south. I could show you hills that have been making wines for 2000 years and take you from town to town, each specializing in something different that’s out of this world. I could explain the Emiliano passion for automobiles (Ferraris and Maseratis), we could talk about the many monasteries created by the order of St. Francis.
Can this and much much more just be waved off as tribalism. Are you so enamored of your bill of rights and amendments (that for over a decade denied you Americans the right to sip a Riesling or a Guiness Stout?
Bah! Flanders! Bah Italy! Crappy tribalistic little people who love their countries and not just the system of their countries.
I cry and cringe at the thought of so much beauty, liveliness, insanity, so many ingredients, recipes, dances, songs… gradually being lost. And by lost I don’t mean change, inevitable change, but literally knocked off the kilter of their continuum.
They don’t drink wine. They hide their Monica Bellucis, they marry off children and practice paedophilia, they throw rocks at lovers. The tragic heroes of Puccini’s La Boheme would have never made it to Rodolfo crying out “Mimiiiii! Mimi would have been either flogged or lapidated.
My fashionable Italy, chadored! Hijabbed!” My flirtatious girls locked away… The bikinis on the Riviera a thing of the past.
Did I say anything political? Don’t you really think that under and far far deeper than politics and the law there is an ethos. If they’re numbers rise, I’m sure the Muslims will be very democratic… Let’s face it, Hamas won their election fair and square… and so did the Islamic Turks.
The truth is, it’s not about democracy… It’s a war that’s been going on for 1400 years. Either that’s the view or you’re not seeing right, but through a skewed perspective.
The Flemish have old and amazingly beautiful cities, like Florence and Venice… Can you imagine the Muslims covering up the nudes? What would they do to the Uffizi Galleries?
No my friends… you’re the tribals. This time around the gringos are petty and short-sighted. Why do you suppose they made a replica of Venice in Las Vegas? Would you care to lose this city that invented make-up (in the west), famous for its carnival, that inspired Tchiakowski and countless others. Would you take the love songs from Naples? The pork specialities from Nocera? The wines from Piemonte?
Yes, dear Sharmuta and Thanos, we’re just crappy little tribal people… or perhaps you are for seeing everything from your piece of paper… and unable to appreciate people’s attachment to anything but a social creed.
Never mind. Blessings… and as a parting favor, I ask you to remind Charles about that song on Bong Fury, the one that Captain Beefheart sings. At least in our love for that crazy musician we’ll still be united. Tell him that Capuccino was good friends with the guy who named a jelly fish after Frank. (A communist!!! But I’m sure he’s no longer one anymore)
“She’s two hundred years old
Squattin’ down & pockin’ up
In front of the juke box
just like she had True Religion.. BOY!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EACudJqowoc
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:29 pm Thanos:To all the rationalizers who are going to compare to past alliances with evil - the times were much harder and more dire then, and it didn’t exactly turn out well in the end did it? Stalin begat the cold war, the shah begat Dinnerjacket. Nuff said.
VB brings not much to the table, so I don’t see the need to take the hit by allying with them.
They do make a lot of noise about the war with Islam, but in the real war there are only 368 Belgian troops, and some of those are probably Flemish.
What else can they bring besides the burning issue of tribal nationalism?
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:32 pm Thanos:I’m seeing a lot of hysteria and angst and strawmen tossed about over few simple questions. I see a lot of folks assuming we are willing to cut off all of Europe. Sorry, I don’t buy the package deal that white supremacists/traditionalists/tribal nationalists call them what you will are the only possible allies in Europe. The tide has turned, and they are hanging on the coattails like remoras.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:38 pm AngleofRepose:Note to Charles (since I see that you’re reading the comments here),
I originally saw that interview with Filip Dewinter and the Jewish Weekly on Pamela’s site. Unfortunately, the link she gave went straight to the site, and not the interview. So I did a search on their site, but nothing came up. Then I googled, and finally found that website “majority rights” with the interview on it. I posted it here w/out browsing the site.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:43 pm AngleofRepose:Thanos, that was my ORIGINAL correspondence. I highlighted it mainly to show you the subject line I used.
I sent those questions in to him since then, so like I said, I’m waiting for further reply.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:45 pm Thanos:Ok thanks
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:46 pm IoshkaFutz:Think Culture, Thanos… and I don’t mean highbrow stuff, but life (you know, girls playing frisbee on the beach)… and then think Socialists, Christian Democrats, Greens… and wide open immigration for the Muslims… because of their boundless love for humanity. Think of Israel’s own protective laws. Consider the rights allowed to the American and Canadian Indians to maintain their culture. Think of this war lasting 1400 years. Read what Vlaams and the Swedish Democrats actually say and write… and what is attracting big swathes of the population there. Consider the very difficult realities of Europe.
Your choice.
BTW my brother, a TV commedian in Italy was the first victim of the Islamic cultural assault, just an antipasto of what is to come, as evinced by the murder of Theo van Gogh. He got Death threats for impersonating an oil sheik. May pigeons crap in both my eyes if I’m lying. It was 1985.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:50 pm Thanos:I understand the culture a bit, my early years were spent in Germany, I’ve read Oriana’s books, and I’ve read the classics.
Nov 8, 2007 - 6:57 pm Sodra Djavul:VB gained in the last election because they are trying to become more moderate, but the track record is not long enough for me to trust them. It could be pure opportunism, as during their earlier history it was the Portugeuse that Filip wanted to deport.
You know, the longer this goes on, the longer I wonder what I ever saw in LGF. Oh, that’s right. The people I used to hang out with over there were the very people so upset with this little witch hunt of Charles that they either had themselves banned for confronting the vile statements of “Lizards” or voluntarily chose to leave.
I’ve seen the Flemish described as the “Phlegmish.” I’ve seen Fjordman and Paul Belien demonized as goose-stepping neo-Nazis. I’ve even seen some of the nutjobs over there claim that if a member of the Vlaams Belang were with them in their proverbial foxhole, they would SHOOT them.
Real class act, those rabid minions. No need for proof, no due process (I guarantee if this was provable the VB would not exist as a political party in Belgium), or debate over the veracity of their claims. Just a proclamation of guilt by Charles Johnson and it’s off to rounding up dissidents and shooting them.
This is a witch hunt that would make even Puritan Salem blush.
Nov 8, 2007 - 7:07 pm Thanos:Time for me to go check news in Pakistan, but before I do, here’s a contrasting view from Van Der Galien’s Gazette.
Nov 8, 2007 - 7:08 pm Thanos:http://mvdg.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/richard-miniter-doesnt-quite-get-it/
Richard: your spam catcher held one of my comments because it had two links in it, you can nuke it, the link to IJzerwake is not important to the discussion & I reposted the other.
Nov 8, 2007 - 7:20 pm LizardsGoHome:-Thanks
And so LGF sends an army of flying Monkeys -er- Lizards to bully and intimidate.
Nov 8, 2007 - 9:33 pm Vince P:This is wrong.
Honorable people can disagree.
The 1000 crap-flinging-monkeys -er- lizards routine is juvenile and thuggish.
People who attended the conference have different opinions,
yet the back-slapping, knee-bending, lickspittle sycophants will brook no dissent.
The LizardKing has spoken!
“Feh” indeed.
What you folks are doing here is harrassment, pure and simple.
Thanos how much ad money of LGFs are you getting for your shilling services?
Nov 8, 2007 - 10:20 pm Thanos:Vince, he sends me about half the amount that Karl Rove does.
Nov 8, 2007 - 10:56 pm AngleofRepose:Well shoot, Thanos! You get money from both LGF AND Karl?
All’s I got was this lousy t-shirt with an Odin’s Cross, Hitler salute, some rune’s and a bag of skittles from the VB.
F*cking cheap nazis.
Nov 8, 2007 - 11:57 pm WASP:Thanos,
You say that parties like VB are remoras, but the fact is they are the ones that have started the turn, such as it is They get real votes, have real members of parliament.
I’d also like you to perform a thought experiment. Nigeria has over 100 million people. Now, imagine that just 3 percent of those immigrated to the Republic of Ireland. They would then equal the number of native-born Irish , traditional Irish. Would that not be an overwhelming change, a complete change in the nature of what Ireland and ‘the Irish’ are?
Well, VB simply wants to prevent this happening to Flanders. Primarily they oppose more Muslim immigration, but at the same time they don’t want more immigration from, say, the Congo. Because it would change the nature of their country and their people. I personally believe that is a totally legitimate policy. I think the burder of proof is on the ‘one world’ types to show why small nations are obligated to submit to demographic transformation.
Thanos, you say you are part Cherokee. It is ironic that in the US we now learn that people like John Ross — who put his own people first , not to mention Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, are heros for sticking up for their own folk. No doubt at any point in time the easy, ‘most economic’ to give in to the mass immigration. But they stuck to their guns (literally) and we now recognize them as heros.
Nov 9, 2007 - 3:58 am IoshkaFutz:Dear Wasp,
I’m afraid that’s “tribal” for the LGFers. It would seem it’s either we all turn into some sort of cultural airport terminal or we’re Nazis.
Frankly I wouldn’t even want Lily-white Swedes and Norwegians becoming the majority in Umbria, and radically changing the local culture to something Scandinavian. And those are mighty fine people. A great Swede who lived much of his life in Italy Niels Liedholm, legendary soccer player and team coach just passed away. A much beloved man… but when he retired, he moved to a little town in Piedmont and became a vintner. If because - heaven forbid - a meteor wrecked the economy of Sweden and sent half the population to Italy, I might grumble, but I know that they would fit in. They wouldn’t be like the Muslims who when you think about it are worse than the Aztecs. The Aztecs practiced human sacrifice but at least they did it in grand ceremonies at set places with pre-ordained timings and against chosen victims, and not just helter-skelter. I’d know that they, the Swedes appreciate fashion and don’t demand special diets. I’d know that their women, fabled for their beauty, were not considered “property” in the nastiest sense of the term. You know that the other culture is real trouble when it cannot even tolerate a Romeo & Juliette story (Juliette in this case being a Muslim).
There’s a place for controlled immigration in this crazy world that from global village has become condominium… but is there a place for people whose religion now has me frisked for going to St. Peter’s Square to listen to the Pope… that has mothers having to taste their baby formulas in front of controllers?… When I saw my 84 year old father ordered to take off his shoes… I said “Basta!” And when I saw my mother getting her nail clips confiscated before boarding a flight, again I said “Basta!”
Europe isn’t once-upon-a-time America, a vast and practically empty continent. There’s no reason on earth why in the name of some “we-the-people” semi-religious creed, ancient countries have to commit cultural suicide.
This is called being “tribal”… So be it then. Perhaps what America must learn is that God is not only in the big and grand stuff, but also in the details. And they should wake up to the fact that more and more, the big and grand truth is used to hide the smaller truths. We may all be sinners and all have a soul, but that doesn’t mean that all tribes are morally equal in their teachings. Ideals were meant to lead us and not blind us.
If Gypsies, freshly arrived from open-borders Romania are presently catching up with the Muslims in crime level, the fact that we are all brothers of the human family shouldn’t hide the fact that - well - Gypsies, freshly arrived from open-borders Romania are presently catching up with the Muslims in crime level. They have to carry their cross too, all the more so because they - unlike us - are heavily tribal. It’s reached a point where telling the truth has become worse than a gaffe, but a crime. I don’t like this fake American religion that in the name of content-less freedom would allow my Italy to be stripped of her vineyards, her culinary traditions, her play of the sexes, her very soul. I wouldn’t dream of keeping Italy identical to some snapshot frozen in time. But she must not have Sharia affecting even a single of her neighborhoods. We don’t throw rocks at lovers, we wine, dine and serenade them. We don’t hide women, we accentuate their beauty with some of the world’s finest fashions. We don’t arrange marriages, but look at our young ones in love with infinite tenderness. Our clerics don’t thunder and bluster curses at all nations, but speak of love. We don’t issue fatwas against satirists, but love and enjoy them to pieces.
If the LGFers cannot appreciate the mix of ideals AND culture, they are the tribals, hopelessly petty… They are the Chestertonian madmen (”A madman is not one who has lost his reason, he is one who has lost everything but his reason”).
Nov 9, 2007 - 7:04 am 24tracktap:I’d just like to state that I agree with IoshkaFutz almost 100% and would like to add that thr true insanity is that even the semblance of calling for firm borders (and the retention of associated culture) IMMEDIATELY brands you a racist/nazi/bigot in many circles here in the US. Don’t get me started on hate crime legislation! The saddest part is that from firsthand (and information gleaned through the media) it seems far worse in many parts of Europe. Of course, the bright side is that there does seem to be some positive movement in evidence in Switzerland and France. Hopefully that will continue. I think we’re at a very critical time in that 1400 year cycle…
Nov 9, 2007 - 8:48 am WASP:It would seem it’s either we all turn into some sort of cultural airport terminal or we’re Nazis.
Very good … I think I’ll steal it! ; )
Two points in response. First, Western civilization seems to have forgotten the Aristotlean ‘happy medium’. This is my big gripe with absolutist libertarians (whom I expect are the great proportion of LGFers). Yes, the market is great, liberty is good, but there are other values that must be balanced. The Nazis were an extreme, and an extreme evil, but that does not mean that anyone with a love of their homeland and people as presently constituted and a desire to preserve both are Nazis or evil.
Second, your point about Swedes in Italy is well taken. But it doesn’t have to be hypothetical. Some areas of the Spanish and Turkish coasts have been colonized by Brits and other Europeans (some seeking to get away from crowded, expensive, immigrant filled northern cities). The Spanish and Turks have a right to object to this, I believe. And many do. But the impact upon Spanish and Turkish societies is minimal compared with Third World and Eastern European immigration into Britain and other northern european towns. Now virtually all big cities in the north are a monotone blob of Kebab shops, internet cafes, money sending establishments and turkish vegtable sellers. The mix of people changes somewhat, but some places in Paris or Brussels are virtually identical in their ‘cosmopolitan’ sameness as sites in London or Amsterdam.
Nov 9, 2007 - 8:51 am Paul from Florida:Charles is waiting for the surfer boy majority to rise up in Europe against the Islamists.
(crickets)
Not that Charles is too bright about these things, but who does he think would physically rise up first against the Islamists? Discount shoppers? Or people interested and holding ideological views rooted in recent history? Doh!
European state socialism has bleached out, stomped out, bought out the masses. They are consumers. The political/information environment is a donut with mass mush in the center, if anything, and a circle of extremes. Charles believes it not to be so, but it is. Unless Charles wants to take off his fairy pants and mix it up with the Islamists, he’s going to have to accept those that do the work. He kind of reminds me of the time myself and another went to a house to do some work, but the person was so anal retentive they wouldn’t let us in. The interior was perfect museum of white carpet and glass Hummels. We were fine and in my experience near nigh nancys about cleanliness. So we left and it didn’t get done. That’s where Charles is.
Nov 9, 2007 - 9:01 am 24tracktap:I’d just like to state that I agree with IoshkaFutz almost 100% and would like to add that the true insanity is that even the semblance of calling for firm borders (and the retention of associated culture) IMMEDIATELY brands you a racist/nazi/bigot in many circles here in the US. Don’t get me started on hate crime legislation! The saddest part is that from firsthand (and information gleaned through the media) it seems far worse in many parts of Europe. Of course, the bright side is that there does seem to be some positive movement as in evidence in Switzerland and France. Hopefully that will continue. I think we’re at a very critical time in the aforementioned 1400 year cycle…
Nov 9, 2007 - 9:14 amSorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.